posted
Wonder what they would say if you told them you weren't interested in praying about it, cause you just aren't interested in changing religions (or the lack thereof)?
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posted
Every time I tried to tell them that I had no desire to switch religions, they would get uncomfortable and change the subject.
I really don't want to pick on these poor young women. It seemed like they just expected everyone to pray, get an answer that their scripture was true, and then missionaries would fill in the details. When that didn't happen, they were at a loss. They obviously had abundant faith, they were just seriously lacking in education. They were unable to answer questions like, "Why do you think Jesus Christ was the messiah?" so we were obviously not a good match as teachers/student.
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Aw, poor missionaries. Yeah, it doesn't sound like it was a good match.
The upside of all the horror stories is that it is radically lowering expectations. If pfresh's can get a complete sentence out and manage to not stalk him afterwards, they'll look like stars.
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I can explain why they Elders (male missionaries) passed you off to the Sisters (female missionaries). At least in our mission the Elders were not allowed to teach women unless their husband or parents were present. edit: (unless the women was over 60 years of age) It was a rule to keep the Elders out of trouble with girls.
As for the Sister missionaries' knowledge base, it may be that these particular missionaries had not planned on serving a mission and therefor not prepared as well as the Elders, who likely had planned on serving on a mission since they were little. (I know this is a generalization and I'm likely to be attacked by some wonderful former Sister missionaries.)
As for their aggressivness, there was nothing more uncomfortable for me than when my companion would not let it go and pressed people farther than they wanted to go. I always figured that if someone said no they ment it and it was better to accept it and maybe have a chance talking to the person in the future rather than alienate them and make them not like us.
posted
Question again. When I was on the phone last night, the man I spoke with said they had a sort of lesson they wanted to talk to me about (they also recommended a section of the Book of Mormon to read, which I did). I said I was okay with that. What I'm wondering is though is will I be able to ask them some questions while they are here? Just from my basic research, some of the reading of the Book of Mormon I've done, and from some of the things I've heard from Mormons and former Mormons I know I've got a few questions I'd like to get answered (or at least get some sort of explanation for them). Will they be willing to go into a sort Q&A thing or will they just want to talk about their lesson the whole time? I just have no real clue what to expect.
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posted
They can answer questions - I'd tell them that you have some at the beginning and let them know how many/what kind, just in case they have an appointment after and they can plan the time better.
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posted
Okay. I think I'll write out some of my questions ahead of time just so I don't forget. It's not like I have a long list, but one or two of them might require lengthier explanations.
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Most missionaries will be ok with some Q&A. I would let them know at the beginning that you have some questions that you would like to ask, but be willing to ask them at the end of their lesson. Usually works out best if you save your questions for the end unless they relate to the lesson. But that is just me.
posted
>>Okay. I think I'll write out some of my questions ahead of time just so I don't forget. It's not like I have a long list, but one or two of them might require lengthier explanations.<<
My goodness. I think I would have walked around Italy barefoot for two years for the chance to meet someone like you.
Prepared questions? I'd have probably had a heart attack from the sheer joy of meeting someone who AT LEAST wanted to engage in a discussion.
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posted
Well I'm a very organized and planned out sort of guy. If I'm trying to research something, I do it all the way and for things like gathering information from people I try and be really prepared to get what I want to know from the conversation.
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posted
I'm going to give you the opposite advice from Sergeant-- tell 'em up front that you've heard some things about Mormonism and you have questions.
posted
>>So you're saying the discussion of questions and stuff is more important than the lesson?
I'm saying that your questions are more important to YOU at this point than the missionaries' lesson.
What I'd be hoping, as a missionary meeting you for the first time, is that we could discuss the gospel, and that you'd feel the confirmation of the Spirit that what we're discussing is from God. Depending on your responses, I might try to talk about the Plan of Salvation and Joseph Smith; or not. If the Spirit was present, and YOU agreed that you felt it too, I'd invite you to investigate the Church further. I might invite you to make a commitment to baptism (again, depending on circumstances).
Mostly, I'd just be hoping you were home when you said you would be.
I don't want to knock the lessons-- although, I'm more inclined to call them 'directed discussions.' They're important so that investigators get a basic understanding of our beliefs. But someone who has actually prepared questions-- I'd look on those as being much more important.
Within reason, anyway.
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posted
Wow, what sort of circumstances would make an immediate leap to commitment to baptism (if you don't mind me asking)?
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Oh, I totally agree with Scott that your own questions are highest priority. The lessons can come afterwards, as time allows. When I go on team ups with the sister missionaries, we always love it if the person investigating the church has questions of their own. They will likely spend hours finding just the right scriptures to answer you, or pray to receive revelation of how to answer you. I would totally ask your own questions first. The lesson can be adapted to address whatever you want to know about.
In the south, I think some of the over persistance of missionaries can come from cultural differences between here and other parts of the country. Apparently in the North, if someone isn't interested in talking to you further, they phrase it something like "Don't call me again, I'm not interested in talking to you anymore." In the south that would be phrased much more softly, something like "I find I don't have much time lately" or even just by using the 3 strikes rule (the rule that if you call and invite someone 3 times in a row and they're busy or can't come, then you should quit calling). I've had to explain this to some very sweet girls from Utah and Idaho who didn't realize what was going on.
It's just a different cultural norm. People in the south are politer. The baldfaced "don't call me again" sounds extremely rude to our ears. More like a personal affront intended to cause pain or offense. I think missionaries from other parts of the country may tend to interpret "I'm busy" as "please come back later when I'm not busy".
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No, people in the south consider different things polite. Southern cultural norms would be considered just as rude in the midwest as midwestern cultural norms would be in the south.
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posted
>>Wow, what sort of circumstances would make an immediate leap to commitment to baptism (if you don't mind me asking)?<<
Well-- a strong sense of the presence of the Spirit, and a recognition by the investigator that it was from God.
That's what it took for me to make the invitation. The commitment by the investigator to actually go through with the baptism always took a bit more than that, not suprisingly.
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posted
Unless things have changed greatly, this is the chapter that they'll want you to read: Third Nephi 11
The missionaries don't do the discussions the same way that they used to - they used to have to stick to each discussion, but now they're allowed to go pretty much wherever they feel inspired. So ask away.
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If, after the first lesson, an investigator told me s/he believed Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that the Book of Mormon was true and inspired by God, I would extend the commitment to join the church. Theoretically (since it never happened to me).
A more likely conclusion to a first discussion is an invitation to church and/or some church-sponsored activity, a request to read and pray about the truth of the Book of Mormon, and an attempt to set another appointment (probably sometime in the next week, if possible).
What type of questions do you have? There may be some subjects missionaries might not feel comfortable covering during a first discussion, just because the subjects require a thorough establishment of basic principles before any explanation would make sense.
And I agree somewhat with Tatiana. An "I'm busy" sounds a lot like "Come back later" to someone who's trying to get someone, anyone, to listen to their message. Although I must say the missionaries in Minerva's case sounded over-the-top pushy.
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No, people in the south consider different things polite. Southern cultural norms would be considered just as rude in the midwest as midwestern cultural norms would be in the south.
For instance, many people in the midwest would never make a comment like yours quoted here, Tatiana, because they would consider it remarkably rude to say an entire region of other people is not polite. Particularly in public, in a social setting that contained many people from the region in question.
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quote:Southern cultural norms would be considered just as rude in the midwest as midwestern cultural norms would be in the south.
Example?
ElJay, she said Southern people are politer, not that people everywhere else are rude.
It's commonly held wisdom, and in my experience it's neither totally accurate nor totally inaccurate. I agree with dkw's first sentence completely, but I'd like to hear some examples.
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posted
tern, he did recommend Third Nephi 11, which is what I read last night. As for SenojRetep, I have a good variety of questions. I could post them here and you guys could go over and tell me which ones you think might be good to ask about and which ones wouldn't be good to ask about.
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quote:Apparently in the North, if someone isn't interested in talking to you further, they phrase it something like "Don't call me again, I'm not interested in talking to you anymore."
The baldfaced "don't call me again" sounds extremely rude to our ears.
If she's saying that people in the north do X and "we" consider X "extremely rude," then can I say she's calling people in the north rude?
Incidentally, I would also consider that phrasing rather rude. If I felt the need to be that blunt, I would at least say "Please do not call me again, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in converting."
(I'll let Dana give examples, since it was her point, originally.)
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posted
JT, a prime example would be saying "I find I just don't have much time now," when what you mean is "I'm not interested." Or saying that you have something else to do three times and expecting the other person to take that as a "hint" and stop calling. Rude. Around here, if you say, "I'd really like to but I'm busy this weekend," that means you'd really like to but you're busy this weekend.
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posted
pfresh85-- you post your questions here, and we're likely to answer them before the missionaries get the opportunity to take a swing.
MOST questions are okay to ask. I mean, I wouldn't ask the Elders if they'll be willing to. . . um. . . sniff your shoes, or bear your first child. That would be kind of inappropriate. But they've probably (crossing fingers) heard most of the questions you're going to ask.
If you've got specific questions about certain sacred things-- like the temple, for example-- you need to be prepared to be answered with, "Those things are very sacred to us, and we don't talk of them outside of the temple." General questions-- like, what gets done there and why are okay.
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posted
Personally, I consider all these lingual games rude. I wish everyone would just be blunt and up front about it. I mean I'm from the South, and I really do wish people would say what they mean truthfully rather than trying to spare feelings. Maybe that's just me though.
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posted
I have to admit up until they showed up at my house unannounced and told me that "my G-d" wasn't capable of answering me, I used the, "I'm really busy." approach.
I also asked the member to whom I was talking to talk to the sister missionaries. I really tried to be as polite as possible, even face of behavior I considered very rude (like showing up at someone's house unannounced).
I've lived in New England my whole life. So I'm not sure about the northerners/southerners theory...
I'm curious about whether there are questions that missionaries are discouraged from answering. It seemed that when I tried to ask a specific questions, they would break out into "Let's read the intro from the Book of Mormon." I didn't get that behavior at all from the member.
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posted
Well would a question like "Why aren't non-Mormons allowed into temple for weddings or what not? Why is this restriction in place (particularly on such a happy event)?" too specific of a sacred question? I mean that's one of the few questions that I have that has to do with sacred stuff, most of it is either a) historical stuff, b) stuff about the modern church's views (in regards to gender roles, relationships, etc.), or c) questions raised by my reading of Third Nephi 11.
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quote:Saying your ma'ams and sirs doesn't make you polite; neither does passive aggressiveness.
I agree with that.
quote:JT, a prime example would be saying "I find I just don't have much time now," when what you mean is "I'm not interested." Or saying that you have something else to do three times and expecting the other person to take that as a "hint" and stop calling. Rude.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't see anything wrong with sparing someone's feeling in an example like that, and I've seen it happen a lot outside the south. I'm not gonna argue with you about how things work in Oklahoma, cause I don't live there. But if a couple that you know you'll see again (say, a church couple) asks you to do something you really don't want to do do you actually say to them, "I'm not interested."
That seems a little callous to me.
But maybe that's more person-to-person than a regional thing. The thing about the south being more polite is misguided, I think. It's based on people being more outwardly polite, like sir and ma'am, holding doors, and saying "God Bless you" when someone sneezes. People in the north don't do these things with anything near the regularity of their southern counterparts, but it's not because they're less polite. It's just different cultural expectations.
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So, why are non-Mormons not allowed into the temple for weddings?
Technically, non-Mormons (as well as Mormons without temple recommends) are not allowed into the temple at all, regardless of the occasion. The simplest reason is that it's sacred. We want to make sure that those entering understand the importance of the temple and the ordinances therein. We understand that this imposes some difficulties, and some people won't like it - but that's the tradeoff that has to be made.
Feel free to ask about historical stuff, modern church views, and doctrinal questions (such as those from 3 Ne 11). We love to answer questions. Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Nope, those questions are fine. Really, pfresh, ALL your questions will probably be fine, as in, it's not inappropriate to ask them. It may be inappropriate for the missionaries to answer, though-- just be prepared for that response.
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posted
I'm originally from Oklahoma, so maybe that's what it has to do with anything.
As for the wedding question, well if I did convert, then it might have to be a 2 ceremony type thing. I don't want to disclude my whole family from what would probably be the most important day in my life.
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posted
I like the "making others feel most comfortable (when appropriate)" definitions of courtesy. In my mind, a remarkably courteous person would be one who had studied enough about the different cultures that he or she might be exposed to in order to interact comfortably with just about anyone in any circumstance.
This takes a certain detachment, though, balanced with a different sort of caring.
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posted
It was just a random state that's not quite south, not quite midwest, that doesn't fit any politeness stereotype.
I guess I should have phrased that better.
EDIT: Thinking back, maybe this explains some of the miscommunications on this and other boards. Maybe my impressions have been colored by what I thought was rudeness when it was actually perfectly neutral speech. Hmm.
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posted
So, JT, if you're calling and asking a girl out on a date, would you rather she tell you she was "busy" three times or tell you she wasn't interested?
If a friend from church asked me to do something I didn't want to do, I would answer that that wasn't really my thing but suggest something else. If I didn't want to do it because I actively didn't like them I would say I was sorry but I just didn't have the time to add anything else to my social calendar. That pretty much shuts down any type of activity.
I use sir and ma'am frequently in more formal situations, or with people I don't know. But when I was in Texas, it only went one way. Older people were expected to be called sir, but they called younger men "Boy" if they were trying to get their attention and didn't know their name. Blew my mind.
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>>I'm curious about whether there are questions that missionaries are discouraged from answering.<<
Boy, you had some doozies, didn't you. My condolences.
Missionaries, at least the ones in my mission, were not discouraged from answering any questions. Like I said, I would have given up vital organs to have someone engage me in sincere discussion.
That being said, if an investigator asked me, "Why do you believe Jesus is the Messiah?" part of my response would be to bring out the Book of Mormon and talk about how it is a testament to Christ's messianic mission. The Book of Mormon is a large part of what we believe-- critisizing its use as a teaching tool is a bit like asking a Jew to explain their beliefs without referencing the Torah.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
As I think we've discussed, when she says she's busy twice I know she's saying she's not interested. The nice part is that it's message sent and received without me beating myself up. I know she's not interested but I don't have to hear the words.
People in Montana call their friends' parents, their professors, and everyone under the age of seventy by their first names. Freaked me out.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:But if a couple that you know you'll see again (say, a church couple) asks you to do something you really don't want to do do you actually say to them, "I'm not interested."
If it's something I don't want to do, and have no intention of doing, then yes, I say I'm not interested. Or I might say, "Well, 'x' isn't really my thing," or something similar.
quote:Thinking back, maybe this explains some of the miscommunications on this and other boards. Maybe my impressions have been colored by what I thought was rudeness when it was actually perfectly neutral speech. Hmm.
I don't doubt it. I have noticed that many times misunderstandings of intent on this board fall out along regional lines.
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: But when I was in Texas, it only went one way. Older people were expected to be called sir, but they called younger men "Boy" if they were trying to get their attention and didn't know their name. Blew my mind.
Really? I mean I understand calling older people sir, but the "boy"thing is totally new to me (and I've lived in Texas over 10 years). The only time I've heard/used the "boy" thing was joking between my brother or my friends. I've never heard it used as an older person talking down to a young man.
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quote:when she says she's busy twice I know she's saying she's not interested.
Unless she's a northern girl. In which case she's saying she's busy. Although I suppose it still might mean, "not interested enough to cancel plans I've already made to jump at the chance."
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posted
Wow. I lived in South Carolina for a year and found it very unfriendly. As a matter of fact the only people who actually made me feel welcome (other than my boyfriend's family) were other Northerners. And this was when I was younger and nicer than I am now. The constant snubbing from people who didn't know me at all was rather hurtful. One example: On Christmas Eve I went to church for the first time there (I had moved just a few weeks earlier). The hymns were listed in the bulletin so I sang. Not loudly. Other people in the congregation were singing - not like it was a choir solo. I am a trained singer and I have been singing in churches for most of my life, so I don't think I was singing badly. The woman in front of me turned around to say, "we would rather you didn't sing down here."
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posted
We did two ceremonies - the wedding, and then a ring ceremony, because my wife's family were not temple-worthy members. The only thing is that you can't treat the ring ceremony as another wedding.
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quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: Have you seen the bums in Austin? Man, some of those are pretty darn scary.
The only time I was in Austin, I spent the entire time in a hotel room watching a hurricane trash some part of the Gulf Coast that wasn't New Orleans.
Also, Texas is not the South. It is Texas.
Oh, and I also will generally hang out with anyone who invites me to go do something, as I see no harm in seeing a movie with someone or having dinner or whatever. But I avoid physical contact, thus avoiding the "I'm not interested" discussion.
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