posted
I just wanted to say that, after five years of lurking here, I finally decided to sign-up just so that I could say "thanks" for having this thread. I don't know anything whatsoever about Judaism. And this thread has been fascinating, as well as the Torah 101 thread. I have learned quite a lot in a very short time. Thanks! (and I hope to start posting more often now that I finally made the plunge)
Posts: 315 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by David G: I guess I'm not going to get extra credit (and I'm clearly not going to impress anyone here).
You impress me with the civility and calmness of your responses, David G. Welcome to Hatrack.
(For what it's worth, I expected you to be more inflammatory after your first post, as it read to me -- like others have mentioned -- as a red flag in how it was worded. I've been pleasantly surprised, though, and I'm glad you've stayed.)
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by David G: starLisa, two questions:
Actually, you can just call me Lisa. The "starLisa" thing is because "Lisa" is almost always one of the first usernames to go, and my domain is starways dot net.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Is it your position that at the time the Oral Torah was delivered to Israel at Mt. Sinai that the Oral Torah included, at that time, the conditions to stoning you previously referred to (witness, convening of Sanhedrin, etc...)?
<sigh> You're really determined not to look at the Torah 101 thread, aren't you. You want to make me recapitulate that whole thing here?
Look, just read the first post in that thread. Honest.
But to answer this question, yes, that's exactly what I'm contending. I'm telling you that "an eye for an eye" was never literal lex talionis. That "don't cook a kid in its mother's milk" always meant that you can't cook kosher beheima meat and kosher beheima milk together, that you can't eat such a cooked together mixture, and that you can't derive benefit from it either. That it was always permissible -- required, rather -- to violate Shabbat in order to save lives.
Now, are there rabbinic additions? Sure. And we make a point of distinguishing between the two. Not in terms of compliance, but in terms of certain legalities. For example, there's a halakhic category of safek, or doubt. When there's doubt about a d'Orayta (Sinaitic) law, we choose the more stringent side. When there's a doubt about a d'Rabbanan (Rabbinic) law, we choose the more lenient side.
For example, if I'm eating something, and all of a sudden I think, "Wait... did I remember to say a blessing on this food?" I don't say it. Because that's a rabbinic requirement. But if a man thinks, "Wait... did I remember to put on tefillin today?" He has to go and put it on. Because the requirement is d'Orayta.
If I cook a hamburger with cheese, I've violated a law that was given at Sinai. If I make a sandwich of corned beef and cheese (without cooking them together), I've violated a rabbinic law. Follow?
quote:Originally posted by David G: Did the Oral Torah grow and evolve over time, or does it exist now exactly as it was when delivered to Israel at Mt. Sinai?
These questions are not rhetorical. I am genuinely interested in your answers. Thanks.
No problem. Do you mind if I give you an analogy? Let's say I have a microwave oven. When I bought it, I had a regular oven as well, and I only ever used the microwave to heat things up. Never to cook with.
One day, my oven breaks. And I go to the instruction book for the microwave (which was there all along) and look through it. I find that I can cook food from scratch in the microwave.
So now I'm using the microwave differently than I was before my oven broke, but has the microwave changed? I'd say it hasn't. Even the new use is something it was always able to do.
Now... that doesn't mean I can do anything I want with the microwave. If I try washing my clothes in it, I'm going to have some serious problems. If I try cooking something in it in a metal pan, there's going to be trouble.
The manufacturer built into it certain capabilities. Some I may never use. Some I may use a lot. How do I decide? Well, there's the instruction book, right?
Now, this analogy is far from perfect, but it's a partial illustration. Has the Oral Torah changed over time? Well, the outward manifestation of it has, certainly. We know that the Amidah prayer, for example, was written during the early Second Temple period. So obviously King David didn't say the Amidah.
But the system of law and lore that is the Torah has never changed. Nor will it ever. God isn't time bound, after all, and He's omnicient. If He wanted it to change, He could have given it to us differently.
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quote:Originally posted by Sala: I just wanted to say that, after five years of lurking here, I finally decided to sign-up just so that I could say "thanks" for having this thread. I don't know anything whatsoever about Judaism. And this thread has been fascinating, as well as the Torah 101 thread. I have learned quite a lot in a very short time. Thanks! (and I hope to start posting more often now that I finally made the plunge)
Welcome, Sala! And I'm glad you're enjoying it.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Actually now I have a question. Since your email doesn't seem to work and the first question I asked is kinda big I'll ask something similar; Assuming we're able to leave Earth and colonize other worlds and find alien species with their own cuisine and what not would their food (assuming were on friendly enough terms to eat their food) would their food be kosher?
I was watching an episode of Babylon 5 one day when Ivanova was having dinner with her Rabbi and the Rabbi wondered if the alien food was kosher or not. He decided that since the Torah didnt say anything about it its probly ok.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Actually now I have a question. Since your email doesn't seem to work and the first question I asked is kinda big I'll ask something similar; Assuming we're able to leave Earth and colonize other worlds and find alien species with their own cuisine and what not would their food (assuming were on friendly enough terms to eat their food) would their food be kosher?
I was watching an episode of Babylon 5 one day when Ivanova was having dinner with her Rabbi and the Rabbi wondered if the alien food was kosher or not. He decided that since the Torah didnt say anything about it its probly ok.
Harry Turtledove did a great short story about a company that created a genetically engineered pig that appeard to follow all the rules of being kosher. The story was about the company convincing a Orthodox Rabbi to try it.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Kashrus is not the only troublesome issue of extra-terrestrial life. Off the Earth, how would we figure out when to pray? When Shabbos fell? How do you keep track of Rosh Chodesh when you aren't around the moon any more? Or the rest of the holidays? If I live on a spaceship, do I hang my mezzuzah on it?
<goes off to ponder...>
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Actually now I have a question. Since your email doesn't seem to work
Dude, I e-mailed you this morning. Check your inbox.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: and the first question I asked is kinda big I'll ask something similar; Assuming we're able to leave Earth and colonize other worlds and find alien species with their own cuisine and what not would their food (assuming were on friendly enough terms to eat their food) would their food be kosher?
The vegetables, sure. Animals? Doubtful.
And then what would the status of aliens be? R' Aryeh Kaplan wrote an essay on the subject which suggests that if there are ETs, they wouldn't have free will.
There's an absolutely horrendous book called Diasporah, which I read as a kid. There's an artificial intelligence in it that considers itself Jewish (by conversion, I think).
In Frank Herbert's Dune series, Jews are mentioned very, very briefly in the first book, as victims of Paul's reign of terror, and show up later in the series more in depth.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I was watching an episode of Babylon 5 one day when Ivanova was having dinner with her Rabbi and the Rabbi wondered if the alien food was kosher or not. He decided that since the Torah didnt say anything about it its probly ok.
Yeah, well... remember that JMS had Harlan Ellison as a consultant on the show. I'd be very surprised if he didn't ask Harlan about that point. Or actually, now that I've gone and looked, JMS made the following comments about it:
quote:
Larry wrote the shiva stuff all on his lonesome. As for being an abbreviated version...apparently shiva lasts 3 days for someone recently deceased. If it's been months since the death, the service is usually much shorter, and again, there was only Ivanova and Koslov who actually were part of or knew the deceased.
I'm told that shiva need not last 7 full days, if the death was not recent, and if the body has already been buried.
On the treel/kosher discussion...I can only shrug. Nobody's ever shown that jews go forward into the future, placed them at the heart of a science fiction show as a regular character, nobody's shown shiva before in (and possibly out of) an SF series...and some folks are complaining that not every aspect of a treel's kosher-ness was discussed at dinnertime.
So he was misinformed. Either by Harlan or by someone else. And if he got that wrong, it's not so strange that he would have gotten the kashrut stuff wrong as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Kashrus is not the only troublesome issue of extra-terrestrial life. Off the Earth, how would we figure out when to pray? When Shabbos fell? How do you keep track of Rosh Chodesh when you aren't around the moon any more? Or the rest of the holidays? If I live on a spaceship, do I hang my mezzuzah on it?
<goes off to ponder...>
There's a joke about a frum guy in orbit. Every 15 minutes the tefillin go on, the tefillin come off, the tefillin go on, the tefillin come off...
Apparently, the current ruling with space travel is that you go according to whatever the time is where you left from. But you have to figure that once there's a Sanhedrin, they'll do better than that.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Ok, I checked, just that it was almost a whole week...
SON OF A B*TCH! That is horrible, changing the rules when you don't like the outcome thats like playing tag and he gets you and you say "it has to be for 10 seconds and use both hands". Horrible absolutely horrible.
Reminds me of the Purges in Soviet Russia.
I'm a rabid fan of Harry Turtledove, and the subplots involving Jews always interests me, such as Mordecai Anielielwitz's heroism vs at first the German and then the Lizards in the World War series. I didn't know he was an engineering student before the war. You learn so many things.
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posted
Lisa, May it be that our current understanding of the Oral Torah, as it is has been transmitted through the generations, is inherently, or at least potentially, unreliable for three reasons (and this may be just one reason put three different ways):
Reason 1: God is timeless, limitless, omniscient, etc... beyond us. Humans, however, are limited and imperfect and can never fully grasp and comprehend God. We try as best we can to understand and grasp and experience God. We get closer, but we will never fully succeed. Does not the fact of our limited human comprehension and being also prevent us from fully and reliably grasping and understanding revelation and the voice of God?
Reason 2: Let's assume that the first generation to transmit Oral Torah (Generation One) faithfully received and then transmitted it to Generation Two to the best of their ability. Even so, the Oral Torah Generation One received was filtered through the following: their limited human minds, their sensibilities, their ancient culture and historical perspective, and many other things. Moreover, this Oral Torah, once filtered through Generation One, was then transmitted through human language, which is limiting and fraught with imperfections. So what is received by Generation Two? Generation Two had to tackle and try its best to understand Oral Torah the same way Generation One did, and the filtering process occurs again. This process is repeated over and over again.
Reason 3: Human beings do not reliably transmit large volumes of information - even when they faithfully intend to do so to the best of their ability.
This does not mean that we disregard Oral Torah. This means that each of us, for ourselves, has to try to understand it and tackle it and filter it and make sense of it the same way Generation One had to. We don't have to start from scratch - we have the Written Torah, we have Rabbinic Law, we have the balance of the Tannakh. But the process repeats itself.
Given the inherent or potential unreliability of our ability to understand and transmit Oral Torah over all of these years (and I understand that you may not, or probably do not, accept this premise - so please, no need for another syllogism lesson), how do you know exactly which laws existed in Oral Torah when delivered at Mt. Sinai?
Let’s assume that you do believe that Oral Torah has been reliably and accurately transmitted over the years. How do you know? I assume that it must be a matter of faith and belief. Don’t get me wrong, I by no means disapprove of faith. But perhaps it is this belief/faith that separates Orthodox Jews from other Jews. If I am correct, however, Orthodox Jews cannot invalidate the belief system of Conservative Jews as a matter of logic. Orthodox Jews do not possess a greater truth – they just possess a different belief/faith.
Finally, a hypothetical question: Assume the conditions and authority to stone to death a violator of Shabbat came to be. Assume that you sat on the Sanhedrin (are females allowed?). And assume that the evidence against the perpetrator was compelling. Would you vote to have the perpetrator stoned to death? Is that really what you would want to have happen?
Posts: 195 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Whoops part of my reply belonged in a different thread.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
If its the Law of the Land and the perputrator knows about the law then I saw he deserves the punishment.
Then this brings to mind, was the law just? At what point does the Law become Just on unJust? What are the circumstances of breaking that Law? Were the circumstances mitigating? That I believe is the purpose of the Sanhedrin.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Then this brings to mind, was the law just? At what point does the Law become Just on unJust? What are the circumstances of breaking that Law? Were the circumstances mitigating? That I believe is the purpose of the Sanhedrin.
Two problems: One - How can God's law (Sinaitic Law) possibly be unjust? Two - The Sanhedrin is not authorized to change the Law. (is it, Lisa?)
Posts: 195 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: If its the Law of the Land and the perputrator knows about the law then I saw he deserves the punishment.
Then this brings to mind, was the law just? At what point does the Law become Just on unJust? What are the circumstances of breaking that Law? Were the circumstances mitigating? That I believe is the purpose of the Sanhedrin.
Well if it is a commandment of G-d, can one argue whether it is just or not?
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Back on the Hanukkah rant. I just got an email from my temple:
quote: Friends:
We don't usually send out formal invitations for Shabbat services, but.....
Please join us this Shabbat, Friday evening, December 30th, the 6th candle of Chanukkah, at 8 PM, for a special Shabbat and Chanukkah service.
Bring your own chanukkiyot (menorahs) to light here together, and bring your voices to join in Chanukkah singing (words provided) and Shabbat prayer.
Wishing everyong a chag urim sameach -- a joyous season of light!
Temple Solel
As someone who is in agreement on the hypocrisy of the holiday in America today should I be troubled by anything in that email?
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
*wince* Well, everyone who lights a menorah at (or after) 8 pm will be violating Shabbos to do so.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: *wince* Well, everyone who lights a menorah at (or after) 8 pm will be violating Shabbos to do so.
Heh, I didn't even think about. They are supposed to be lit before the Sabbath candles then I take it?
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posted
Yup. And since that's earlier than they are usually lit, they need to burn longer than usual -- the little candles that burn 30 minutes are not enough for Friday night. (Although they're just fine for the other nights.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
It's not the hypocrisy of the holiday in America you should be troubled about, but rather your synogogue sponsoring an event that flagrantly violates Shabbat.
Posts: 195 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by David G: It's not the hypocrisy of the holiday in America you should be troubled about, but rather your synogogue sponsoring an event that flagrantly violates Shabbat.
David,
What is the Coservative stance on interfaith marriages? I did not start reading about how Judaism really works until I was already deeply involved and in love with my now fiance. She is the only reason I have stayed with the Reform movement. Her still believing in Jesus (though never going to church) sort of puts a crink in converting into Judaism of any shape or form.
Even if one day she did want to, and want to do so in a proper Orthodox manner, I was told once by an Orthodox Rabbi that we would have to spend 3 years a part. He said this would be to prove that she is doing this because of faith and not for my benefit.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by David G: Lisa, May it be that our current understanding of the Oral Torah, as it is has been transmitted through the generations, is inherently, or at least potentially, unreliable for three reasons (and this may be just one reason put three different ways):
Reason 1: God is timeless, limitless, omniscient, etc... beyond us. Humans, however, are limited and imperfect and can never fully grasp and comprehend God. We try as best we can to understand and grasp and experience God. We get closer, but we will never fully succeed. Does not the fact of our limited human comprehension and being also prevent us from fully and reliably grasping and understanding revelation and the voice of God?
That doesn't work. Because God knows our capabilities and limitations. The very fact that He labeled the Torah chukat olam ("eternal statute") tells us that the fix is in, basically.
Certainly we can never fully grasp God. But we can grasp His Torah. It's our raison d'etre.
God included provisions for all sorts of situations. Like if the Sanhedrin realizes that it made a mistake in a ruling. Since we're all obligated to follow the rulings of the Sanhedrin, this could be a major problem. But there's a special sacrifice and ceremony that's specifically for such an event.
God doesn't require of us what we can't do.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Reason 2: Let's assume that the first generation to transmit Oral Torah (Generation One) faithfully received and then transmitted it to Generation Two to the best of their ability.
Right. Have you read the Rambam's introduction to the Mishnah Torah? It's a good read, and covers this.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Even so, the Oral Torah Generation One received was filtered through the following: their limited human minds, their sensibilities, their ancient culture and historical perspective, and many other things.
That's why it's oral. See, if it was written, you'd have problems like the faulty "thou shalt not kill" translation. "Kill", when that translation was written, meant basically what "murder" means today. "Slay" meant what "kill" means today. But because it's a written document, there are a ton of Christians out there who think, in all honestly, that the Torah says "thou shalt not kill".
We don't have that specific problem, because we're using the original, but the basic issue still exists. When something is written down, it's frozen. When it's oral, it's not. And the correct concepts can be reformulated for each generation.
So someone might have described a particular plant as having leaves shaped like a gladius back in Roman times. But what's that going to mean to anyone today? Saying that it's shaped like a short blade (or whatever; I'm not an expert on Roman weapons) is a different way of saying something, but it communicates the same idea to someone in our time.
Moses wouldn't have talked about a gladius, and neither would the Vilna Gaon. But Rabbi Akiva might have, because that was a reasonable reference in his time.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Moreover, this Oral Torah, once filtered through Generation One, was then transmitted through human language, which is limiting and fraught with imperfections.
Okay, I see what you're trying to say. This is the "playing telephone" thing. The party game where you whisper a word in someone's ear, and they whisper it to the next person, and so on, in a circle, and at the end, you get to hear the hilarious result.
Here are three reasons why it's not like that at all. (1) See, in telephone, you get to hear the word one time. And you hear it whispered. Whereas with the Torah, you have hundreds of thousands of Jews (millions, at times) spending huge amounts of their time on it. There's massive redundancy and crosschecking.
As a programmer, I can tell you that triple redundancy is usually considered pretty good for data. This is myriads of Jews spending far more time on learning Torah than the average American spends watching TV. And how many Americans do you think could sing half the commercial jingles they ever heard? "My baloney has a first name, it's O-S-C-A-R..."
Look at the way pop culture seeps into people's minds and consciousness. And that's not even by their own volition. We're talking about something vast numbers of people are doing intentionally, with great dedication and concentration, and with huge redundancy and cross checking. It's a solid system.
(2) Next, there were the prophets. To the extent that nuances were being missed, such as relative priorities and intent, they corrected it. Reasonably enough, that was only necessary for a time.
And (3) we have what I was talking about. God's ability to make sure from the start that we'd manage.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Reason 3: Human beings do not reliably transmit large volumes of information - even when they faithfully intend to do so to the best of their ability.
This does not mean that we disregard Oral Torah. This means that each of us, for ourselves, has to try to understand it and tackle it and filter it and make sense of it the same way Generation One had to. We don't have to start from scratch - we have the Written Torah, we have Rabbinic Law, we have the balance of the Tannakh. But the process repeats itself.
No, David. Because now you really are getting into telephone territory, by individualizing it. Only it's worse than telephone, because you don't even have to pass on what you heard from the person who whispered to you. You can pass on whatever you think the word ought to be.
Do you remember law school, David? You should try learning in yeshiva. You'll wonder what all the fuss was about.
Now, when you say that human beings don't transmit large amounts of information accurately, you have to bear in mind that the information was given to us in such a way as to facilitate its accurate transmission. By God, who I'm going to go out on a limb and assume is capable of doing it effectively.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Given the inherent or potential unreliability of our ability to understand and transmit Oral Torah over all of these years (and I understand that you may not, or probably do not, accept this premise - so please, no need for another syllogism lesson),
Darn. I was going to do just that. You know me so well, and in such a short time. <grin>
quote:Originally posted by David G: how do you know exactly which laws existed in Oral Torah when delivered at Mt. Sinai?
So let me see if I understand the question. Starting with the premise that an omnipotent and omnicient and time independent Creator of everything did not give us a Torah that we'd be able to transmit accurately, how do we know exactly which laws existed in the Oral Torah when delivered at Mt. Sinai?
<shrug> Beats me. I guess you don't. In fact, I can't even imagine a reason for there to be Jews. I mean, one more division between "us" and "them"? For no good reason? It's not as though you have to be Jewish to be a good and moral person, after all. Granted, we have cholent, but they have bacon wrapped scallops fried in butter.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Let's assume that you do believe that Oral Torah has been reliably and accurately transmitted over the years.
Let's do. <grin>
quote:Originally posted by David G: How do you know? I assume that it must be a matter of faith and belief. Don’t get me wrong, I by no means disapprove of faith.
I do. Honestly. this is a post I wrote on a newsgroup many moons ago (3.5 years? Wow...). Bear in mind that I was a lot more flamish back then. Yes, Esther, I've mellowed. <grin> And to those of you who are Christians, please don't get too torqued by the comment about Tertullian.
Anyway, someday I'm going to tighten it up and put it on my website, but for now, it's probably a good representation of what I think about faith, and how I'd answer your question. I didn't want to recapitulate the whole thing here, because it's on the longish side.
quote:Originally posted by David G: But perhaps it is this belief/faith that separates Orthodox Jews from other Jews. If I am correct, however, Orthodox Jews cannot invalidate the belief system of Conservative Jews as a matter of logic.
Ah, but we can, you see. That's the whole thing. If the Conservative movement said it was a separate religion with separate beginnings, I wouldn't have much to say about it one way or the other. But I can quite well establish that Judaism is predicated on an unbroken chain of transmission from Sinai, and that even the Conservative movement has come up with a version of 2nd century CE history that it claims to be the point at which Judaism "went off track", and that they're going back to. Ask your rabbi if you don't believe me. And that, David, isn't an unbroken chain. It's an attempt to fix a chain that "broke" 1800 years ago.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Orthodox Jews do not possess a greater truth – they just possess a different belief/faith.
I see that you think that.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Finally, a hypothetical question: Assume the conditions and authority to stone to death a violator of Shabbat came to be. Assume that you sat on the Sanhedrin (are females allowed?).
Nope. But let's say.
quote:Originally posted by David G: And assume that the evidence against the perpetrator was compelling. Would you vote to have the perpetrator stoned to death? Is that really what you would want to have happen?
Hell, I don't think someone should be ticketed for rolling through a stop sign when it's the middle of the night and no one is around, but that's the law. I would hope that such a case never happened, and I'd do my level best to educate people so that it wouldn't, but if it did, then yes.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Then this brings to mind, was the law just? At what point does the Law become Just on unJust? What are the circumstances of breaking that Law? Were the circumstances mitigating? That I believe is the purpose of the Sanhedrin.
Two problems: One - How can God's law (Sinaitic Law) possibly be unjust?
Why is that a problem? And no, it can't. By definition.
quote:Originally posted by David G: Two - The Sanhedrin is not authorized to change the Law. (is it, Lisa?)
It can make rulings for special cases. And it can create laws, although those laws are called d'Rabbanan (rabbinic) laws, which I discussed earlier. But no, they can't decide that horse is kosher or that the death penalty doesn't need to be carried out when it does.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Back on the Hanukkah rant. I just got an email from my temple:
quote: Friends:
We don't usually send out formal invitations for Shabbat services, but.....
Please join us this Shabbat, Friday evening, December 30th, the 6th candle of Chanukkah, at 8 PM, for a special Shabbat and Chanukkah service.
Bring your own chanukkiyot (menorahs) to light here together, and bring your voices to join in Chanukkah singing (words provided) and Shabbat prayer.
Wishing everyong a chag urim sameach -- a joyous season of light!
Temple Solel
As someone who is in agreement on the hypocrisy of the holiday in America today should I be troubled by anything in that email?
Uh... yeah. God doesn't want you lighting any candles at all, let alone Hanukkah candles, after Shabbat has started. Gah.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by David G: It's not the hypocrisy of the holiday in America you should be troubled about, but rather your synogogue sponsoring an event that flagrantly violates Shabbat.
David,
What is the Coservative stance on interfaith marriages? I did not start reading about how Judaism really works until I was already deeply involved and in love with my now fiance. She is the only reason I have stayed with the Reform movement. Her still believing in Jesus (though never going to church) sort of puts a crink in converting into Judaism of any shape or form.
Even if one day she did want to, and want to do so in a proper Orthodox manner, I was told once by an Orthodox Rabbi that we would have to spend 3 years a part. He said this would be to prove that she is doing this because of faith and not for my benefit.
I suspect that he was exaggerating. We don't encourage converts. On the contrary, we discourage them. But I've known intermarried couples where they started becoming more and more observant, and eventually decided that the non-Jewish spouse would convert. They were completely observant by that time (other than the marriage itself), and quite knowledgable, and the conversion didn't take very long at all.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
starLisa:"In fact, I can't even imagine a reason for there to be Jews. I mean, one more division between "us" and "them"?"
This is, actually, one of my "why" questions about Judaism. What does the religion teach about the reason for the existence of this division/distinction. I used to think I understood it, until I heard a bunch of Jews swearing that they really don't think they are in a "better" position than anyone else because of their Jewishness.
So if, by following the Noachide laws, any person can end up in "as good" a position as an observant Jew, what is the purpose of Judaism?
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Silent E: This is, actually, one of my "why" questions about Judaism. What does the religion teach about the reason for the existence of this division/distinction. I used to think I understood it, until I heard a bunch of Jews swearing that they really don't think they are in a "better" position than anyone else because of their Jewishness.
In a way we are in a worse position.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Back on the Hanukkah rant. I just got an email from my temple:
quote: Friends:
We don't usually send out formal invitations for Shabbat services, but.....
Please join us this Shabbat, Friday evening, December 30th, the 6th candle of Chanukkah, at 8 PM, for a special Shabbat and Chanukkah service.
Bring your own chanukkiyot (menorahs) to light here together, and bring your voices to join in Chanukkah singing (words provided) and Shabbat prayer.
Wishing everyong a chag urim sameach -- a joyous season of light!
Temple Solel
As someone who is in agreement on the hypocrisy of the holiday in America today should I be troubled by anything in that email?
Oh my. It bothers me, too. I can not see any reason why they would have to set this up to violate Shabbos. It is like a slap in the face of, I don't know, something -- Torah, Hashem, oh, everything that I care about in Judaism. I don't like to judge, but, golly, they are making it hard! A shul, encouraging the congregants, by special invitation, no less, to do aveirot. Have they stopped believing in mitzvos? In aveiros? Why would people want to fill up on a poor imitation of Judaism when the real thing is right here, free for the taking?
I ought not to get so bothered. People make their own choices. I can't force people to do things the way I think is right.
NO! I am bothered. Really. They are wounding the congregants neshamas by hiding Torah from them.
I have a headache. I must unclench my jaw.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Oh my. It bothers me, too. I can not see any reason why they would have to set this up to violate Shabbos. It is like a slap in the face of, I don't know, something -- Torah, Hashem, oh, everything that I care about in Judaism. I don't like to judge, but, golly, they are making it hard! A shul, encouraging the congregants, by special invitation, no less, to do aveirot. Have they stopped believing in mitzvos? In aveiros? Why would people want to fill up on a poor imitation of Judaism when the real thing is right here, free for the taking?
I ought not to get so bothered. People make their own choices. I can't force people to do things the way I think is right.
NO! I am bothered. Really. They are wounding the congregants neshamas by hiding Torah from them.
I have a headache. I must unclench my jaw.
They don't know it is "all right there", that's the problem. Most Reform Jews do not practice that way to insult, for permission to live like the rest of society, or even to take the easy way. I was brought up all my life "knowing" this was Judaism. I had a great respect for Orthodox Jews for keeping the "old ways", but I never imagined there was anything wrong with the "new ways".
Of course I have never had an Orthodox Jew come to me and tell me I was doing wrong. At least until I found the internet. I keep hearing about outreach programs, but there can't be too many in the Baltimore/DC metro area.
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quote:I'm not even sure about the seasoning part. And a really good hamburger can be eaten with just a teeny bit of A-1.
That's culinary heresy right there. And I wouldn't wait for legal niceties to distribute justice, either. A-1?! On anything, much less a perfectly good and virtuous piece of ground beef between two slices of bread? That's...that's just beyond the pale, really.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: What is the Coservative stance on interfaith marriages? I did not start reading about how Judaism really works until I was already deeply involved and in love with my now fiance. She is the only reason I have stayed with the Reform movement. Her still believing in Jesus (though never going to church) sort of puts a crink in converting into Judaism of any shape or form.
The following is the best of my knowledge on the subject, but I'm not necessarily the right person to ask. I do not think Conservative Judaism sanctions or condones interfaith marriage, and no Conservative Rabbi will perform the marriage or attend the ceremony. Also, if and when you have children, they will not be Jewish unless they are born after a conversion takes place.
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quote:Originally posted by Silent E: That just makes the Why question that much more urgent.
Possibly because the promised messiah is destined to be Jewish? Perhaps G-d in His infinite wisdom put in place a series of events and a people that would lead to certain future events and people. Jews having to follow more laws and morals may be a part of it. But my guess is that no Jew could answer that 100%. G-d told the Jewish people what to do, for reason of His own.
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Stephan, I'm not upset with you. But I am disturbed by the direction that the congregation has taken. There is a Torah in the shul, no? And a rabbi who leads the congregation who can read it? And who then deliberately lies to the congregation and tells them that the way to serve Hashem is by violating the torah. I grew up non-observant. I have in my past gone to a ballgame and eaten hot dogs there on Yom Kippur. But you know what? Even though I made a bad choice, I didn't have a religious leader encouraging me and telling me it was the right thing to do. And I knew full well that if I asked a rabbi, he would have told me that it was wrong.
When I didn't keep kosher, or shabbos, or any of that Orthodox claptrap, I still knew that it was a part of the religion, and that if I was serious about doing the right thing, I would be doing it. And eventually, I did decide to do the right thing, and do my best to follow the commandments that I could.
But if my religious leaders has misguided me about what Hashem expects, what the torah says, what constitutes right and wrong, I guess it wouldn't be all my fault or responsibility that I didn't serve Hashem in the way that he requires.
I am upset with a religious leadership that is deliberately doing this. I am bothered.
quote:Originally posted by David G: The following is the best of my knowledge on the subject, but I'm not necessarily the right person to ask. I do not think Conservative Judaism sanctions or condones interfaith marriage, and no Conservative Rabbi will perform the marriage or attend the ceremony. Also, if and when you have children, they will not be Jewish unless they are born after a conversion takes place.
Most Reform won't perform the ceremony either apparantly. Mine even said it would be a legal civil ceremony, but not a Jewish one. Why I'm bothering to use him anyways? Good question.
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posted
OK, this question is silly and not remotely relevant, but all this talk of ETs and space travel has triggered my inner geek, and now I just wanna know.
Would an observant Jew be able to travel through space, assuming the means of travel required an engine to be going the entire time? I'm assuming not, since in that case the vehicle would be just a big car. What if they stopped the engines and coasted for the duration of the Sabbath? And what if they kept the engines going, but they traveled while frozen?
posted
Silent E, perhaps an analogy will help. In my understanding of LDS doctrine, it is necessary for “the priesthood” to exist, but not necessary for everyone to hold it. It is a role that approximately half of the adult LDS population holds, and it includes a set of responsibilities for the benefit of the community as a whole. Those who are not called to this role and set of responsibilities still receive its benefits. Yes? My understanding of the role of Judaism in Jewish theology is similar. The Jewish people are called to a specific role within the human community and have a set of responsibilities peculiar to that role. It is not necessary for every person to fulfill those responsibilities, only those who have been chosen for it.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Stephan, I'm not upset with you. But I am disturbed by the direction that the congregation has taken. There is a Torah in the shul, no? And a rabbi who leads the congregation who can read it? And who then deliberately lies to the congregation and tells them that the way to serve Hashem is by violating the torah. I grew up non-observant. I have in my past gone to a ballgame and eaten hot dogs there on Yom Kippur. But you know what? Even though I made a bad choice, I didn't have a religious leader encouraging me and telling me it was the right thing to do. And I knew full well that if I asked a rabbi, he would have told me that it was wrong.
When I didn't keep kosher, or shabbos, or any of that Orthodox claptrap, I still knew that it was a part of the religion, and that if I was serious about doing the right thing, I would be doing it. And eventually, I did decide to do the right thing, and do my best to follow the commandments that I could.
But if my religious leaders has misguided me about what Hashem expects, what the torah says, what constitutes right and wrong, I guess it wouldn't be all my fault or responsibility that I didn't serve Hashem in the way that he requires.
I am upset with a religious leadership that is deliberately doing this. I am bothered.
But not at you.
I assumed as much, but appreciate you saying that all the same.
I honestly believe the Rabbi is not intentionally lying to the congregation. He encourages keeping Kosher, though I'm sure Conservative and Orthodox Jews will disagree that it is Kosher. The Temple will occasionally do a pot-luck Shabbat dinner. The only rule is with meat use chicken and pork with out dairy. Doesn't say antying about it actually being tradition kosher meat.
I think he just believes as many Reform do that the old laws are just outdated. Until I read that the torah cannot be altered I frankly agreed.
I like what Lisa says about her preferring Reform and Conservative Jews to consider themselves another relgion.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: OK, this question is silly and not remotely relevant, but all this talk of ETs and space travel has triggered my inner geek, and now I just wanna know.
Would an observant Jew be able to travel through space, assuming the means of travel required an engine to be going the entire time? I'm assuming not, since in that case the vehicle would be just a big car. What if they stopped the engines and coasted for the duration of the Sabbath? And what if they kept the engines going, but they traveled while frozen?
OK, sorry. Silly nerd questions expunged.
Would those theoretical solar wind sails be considered igniting a flame? I guess to answer that we would need to know if a sail boat already under power it ok.
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posted
I wasn't talking solar winds. I was talking having the engines run until 11:59:59, then cutting them off, and then firing them up again at 12:00:01 kind of thing. The equivalent of coasting in a car while it's turned off on the Sabbath, I suppose.
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dkw, I can understand that analogy, I really can. It's one I've thought of myself. And yet I find it dissatisfying. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I have wondered whether there is a specific Jewish teaching on the subject.
The reasons I find it dissatisfying are manifold. One reason is the disparity between the demands placed on Jews and the demands placed on everyone else. More than 600 commandments to only seven is quite a disparity. It makes wonder, what is it about those 600 commandments that benefits the rest of mankind? Another reason is differences in treatment between the Jews of the Bible and the Gentiles of the same period. A third has to do with the status of people prior to Sinai, including Abraham and other pre-Moses prophets. And there are others.
In my mind, there has to be an explanation for this in the Jewish faith, or at the very least a non-doctrinal explanation that Jews tell themselves as a possibility. I know I do this kind of self-explaining all the time within my own religious beliefs.
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posted
A physician does more than 600 things that a civil engineer is never required to do, yet it would not benefit society for all the civil engineers to become physicians.
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quote:Originally posted by Silent E: dkw, I can understand that analogy, I really can. It's one I've thought of myself. And yet I find it dissatisfying. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I have wondered whether there is a specific Jewish teaching on the subject.
The reasons I find it dissatisfying are manifold. One reason is the disparity between the demands placed on Jews and the demands placed on everyone else. More than 600 commandments to only seven is quite a disparity. It makes wonder, what is it about those 600 commandments that benefits the rest of mankind? Another reason is differences in treatment between the Jews of the Bible and the Gentiles of the same period. A third has to do with the status of people prior to Sinai, including Abraham and other pre-Moses prophets. And there are others.
In my mind, there has to be an explanation for this in the Jewish faith, or at the very least a non-doctrinal explanation that Jews tell themselves as a possibility. I know I do this kind of self-explaining all the time within my own religious beliefs.
Remember, for Jews, there is no Hell. So the status of the pre-Sinai Jews as far as I'm concerned doesn't matter. They had no knowledge of the law, and so were not required to follow what they did not know.
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posted
A more modern day version of Rakeesh's question would be what about cruise ships and the Sabbath?
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quote:Originally posted by Silent E: starLisa:"Well, a cheap answer might be that without Judaism, no one would know what the Noachide laws are."
Why wouldn't they? I think think of many, many ways of communicating and propagating such laws without all the complications of Judaism.
Well, I did say it was a cheap answer.
quote:Originally posted by Silent E: starLisa:"R' Aryeh Kaplan once wrote an essay"
No offense, but that essay was, in my view, totally inadequate to answer the question. Especially in light of what I keep hearing here.
I apologize. I have to leave work early on Fridays, because I have to commute all the way from the Chicago Loop up to Evanston, and I honestly didn't have time. I was hoping that might help, but clearly it didn't. In fact, I didn't even reread it.
My point in posting it is that we don't have all the information. God has a plan. We're a part of that plan. What's God's endgame? I have no idea.
One thing is that we're supposed to serve as teachers. That makes sense, right? I mean, there are a lot of things that need doing in the world, and we can't have everyone delving into this stuff constantly, right? It's a simple division of labor.
And who knows? We talk about the World to Come, or the Next World (which is a better modern translation of ha-olam ha-ba, I think), but nothing says it's necessarily the Last World. For all we know, after we die, we'll all start another life elsewhere or elsewhen. Maybe we'll all be 7 legged squids that breathe methane. Maybe we won't have any physical bodies, but be able to move things with our minds. I'm a science fiction fan/writer, so I can think of a thousand possibilities. We'll see what happens next time around.
Will there be Jews and non-Jews? <shrug> I don't know. Maybe we'll be your janitors next time around. Service staff.
The weird thing is that Judaism is all about distinctions. The most fundamental idea in Judaism is this vs that. Holy and profane. Jews and non-Jews. Light and dark (not necessarily in that order, for people feeling squicky). But God Himself is absolutely without divisions. The exact opposite. In fact, our very existence is a paradox.
Anyway, the main thing is that asking why God made Jews to be different is like asking why God created the world. Or people. We don't have authoritative answers to that.
quote:Originally posted by Silent E: Stephan:"In a way we are in a worse position."
That just makes the Why question that much more urgent.
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