posted
He probably thinks you were talking about hell because he saw you:
say the idea of hell is eerie
say the idea of hell is distateful
say hell is a fantasy
liken hell to Neverland and the Kingdom of Make-Believe
You've got to admit that this is not saying nothing on the subject of Hell.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Question, If I'm not Jewish (as far as I can tell I'm not Jewish) and Jewish Law is both the Law of the land both civily and religiously what Laws would I have to follow? Would the regular Criminal and Napoleonic Code + Charter of Rights and Freedoms basically the gist of it or are their specific laws that I would have to follow?
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quote:I hadn't noticed that. In fact, until you raised it, I don't recall having gone anywhere near that topic.
Perhaps you missed my point: you said you wouldn't respond if someone brought up hell. And yet you did.
Interesting. Here's a quiz for you. What do these have in common:
wouldn't have much to say about it one way or another
wouldn't comment on hell
wouldn't respond if someone brought up hell
The way I see it, the first one is what I said. The next two are your progressively less and less accurate misrepresentation of what I said. And to make your misrepresentations worse, the "it" in my original statement didn't refer to Hell. It referred to "if someone were to post to a message board that Cardinal X is going to hell because he renounced his faith and became a practicing Jew".
So okay, Dag. I get that you're pissed at me for what I'm posting here. But can't you do better than setting up strawmen and knocking them down?
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: The fact that you only did so in response to a post of mine only makes it more relevant to the contrary behavior you claim you would engage in.
quote: Perhaps you think I did because you assume that Hell has to enter into a discussion like this one.
No, as I said above, I never claimed you brought up hell prior to my doing so.
Nor did I ever say I wouldn't make any comments about Hell. So now can we get back to reality?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Question, If I'm not Jewish (as far as I can tell I'm not Jewish) and Jewish Law is both the Law of the land both civily and religiously what Laws would I have to follow? Would the regular Criminal and Napoleonic Code + Charter of Rights and Freedoms basically the gist of it or are their specific laws that I would have to follow?
quote:wouldn't have much to say about it one way or another
You've had an awful lot to say about "it" however you define "it." We've been exchanging posts about "it" now for a couple pages.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Further, you're the one who stated "Really? I hadn't noticed that" in direct response to "For someone who says she wouldn't comment on hell, you seem to be doing an awfully lot of it in this thread."
My last post on the previous page was to your contention that you hadn't noticed that you had said a great deal about hell in this thread, and that somehow the fact that you only did so in response to me lessened somehow what you were saying about it.
My contention: you've said a lot about hell. Your response: I haven't noticed that. And anyway, I only talked about it because you did.
You have, as Porter listed, said quite a bit about hell in this thread. I'm not sure why you didn't notice it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:wouldn't have much to say about it one way or another
You've had an awful lot to say about "it" however you define "it." We've been exchanging posts about "it" now for a couple pages.
How can what "it" is possibly be irrelevant here? As I said the first time around, contrary to what you presumed, I honestly wouldn't have much to say about someone saying "that Cardinal X is going to hell because he renounced his faith and became a practicing Jew". I still don't.
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quote:As I said the first time around, contrary to what you presumed, I honestly wouldn't have much to say about someone saying "that Cardinal X is going to hell because he renounced his faith and became a practicing Jew". I still don't.
I didn't presume ANYTHING about you.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
(and Porter, could you slow down your posting a bit. I'm trying to catch up, but I got a late start)
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Lisa, in what context would killing someone who lights a fire on the Sabbath because their mother -- or, indeed, their mother's mother, or their mother's mother's mother -- happened to be a Jew not be monstrously evil?
Frankly, you sound remarkably conflicted about your God. I don't get the impression you like Him much, but grudgingly obey the rules -- often ridiculously confining and arbitrary rules and petty legalisms, like whether sex without penetration is permitted between two women, or whether flipping a light switch counts as labor -- anyway because you think you have no other choice. And if someone unlucky enough to be born into that circle decides for whatever reason that the rules are unnecessary, or the popular interpretation of them is wrong, and consequently chooses to live without some or all of them, you refuse to acknowledge their right to do so; you would still sentence them to death for disobedience. The fable you cited about the rabbi and the oven was a telling one to me: here we see people essentially gloating -- albeit semi-ruefully -- about out-kibbitizing God. There's something in that which I find remarkably tragic; it almost smacks of self-loathing.
I just don't understand, Lisa, why anyone would want to be a Jew in your world. You make it sound absolutely miserable.
Good thing God, in His infinite wisdom, didn't "circle" you.
I have no idea of what Lisa's relationship with God is (I leave that between her and Him), but you have made similar comments to me in the past. And let me tell you, I love Hashem. I love the mitzvos He has given to me, even though sometimes (many times!) I find some of them difficult. The beauty I find in His world and His commandments every day is something I do not know how to share with those who do not see Him as I do (and surely I have tried).
No one is "out-kibbitzing God" in that story. Rather, they are doing exactly what He commanded. You see it as tragic and self-loathing (?!?); I see it as a beautiful illustration of what our task (part of it, anyway) in this world is.
And that is because there are some very, very basic assumptions and understandings about how the universe works that Lisa and I share, and you do not. And try as you might, we will never be forced into the shape you believe the universe takes.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
Not nessasarily, the sex part is kinda up to interpretation and I'm sure there is a good enough arguement to support it (since us poor lonely men would be driven insane without Lesbians to drool over *grin*) but ya, in pretty much all if not most religions people who leave the religion to worship soem other religion is considered breaking the rules and thus by breaking it according to the laws would hypothetically deserve death, since we're operating under the assumption that the Jewish demonination of God is the true and only God then that would make sense, bah I don't know what I'm talking about.
Lisa doesn't make it sound miserable or else why would she "fanatically" as some people put, support it? Lisa from my POV seems quite proud to be Jewish and is doing her best to be a good Jew. I see nothing wrong with this or her perspective on Orthodoxed Jewish Law.
But then again maybe I shouldn't be defending people, I'm a bad debater sometimes.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
W00t! Rivka explaned it better!
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Lisa, in what context would killing someone who lights a fire on the Sabbath because their mother -- or, indeed, their mother's mother, or their mother's mother's mother -- happened to be a Jew not be monstrously evil?
You mean someone who lives in a society run according to Jewish law? Someone who clearly knows that they aren't allowed to do so and does it anyway, knowing full well what the penalty is?
A guy walks into a doctor's office and says "Doc, it hurts when I do this." The doctor says, "So dummy, don't do that."
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Frankly, you sound remarkably conflicted about your God. I don't get the impression you like Him much, but grudgingly obey the rules -- often ridiculously confining and arbitrary rules and petty legalisms, like whether sex without penetration is permitted between two women, or whether flipping a light switch counts as labor --
That's your uninformed judgement. And for the record, "labor" isn't forbidden on Shabbat. Melacha is. Don't get your translation confused with the real thing, please.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: anyway because you think you have no other choice. And if someone unlucky enough to be born into that circle decides for whatever reason that the rules are unnecessary, or the popular interpretation of them is wrong, and consequently chooses to live without some or all of them, you refuse to acknowledge their right to do so; you would still sentence them to death for disobedience.
No, Tom. I wouldn't. Like I said, I'm not qualified to sit on a beit din or be a witness. I'm just saying what the law is. Why are you getting so emotional about it?
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: The fable you cited about the rabbi and the oven was a telling one to me: here we see people essentially gloating -- albeit semi-ruefully -- about out-kibbitizing God.
Which basically shows that you completely misunderstood it. It illustrates the fact that we have a responsibility, and that God specifically and intentionally shut the door on further divine revelations which add to, subtract from, or in any way modify the Torah. A lesson that seems to be hard for you to get, which I suppose is why it was necessary for it to be spelled out in that way.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: There's something in that which I find remarkably tragic; it almost smacks of self-loathing.
What? The story or the fact that I'm not absolutely thrilled to be Jewish?
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I just don't understand, Lisa, why anyone would want to be a Jew in your world. You make it sound absolutely miserable.
It's not, you know. It's extraordinarily difficult for some people in some contexts. Would you have wanted to be a Jew during the Inquisition? Well, I'm not ecstatic about being gay when there's so much homophobia in the Orthodox community today. My issues are my issues. They have nothing to do with what Judaism is.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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(I saw an interesting presentation on issues in creating massive distributed computing systems that unified isolated submodels of behaviors in reactors of this type, to deal with the issues involved in truly large scale fusion reactors like this one is a first step towards).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Blayne, Esther misspelled "leer" as "lear", which led to the association of Lear Jet. Or Norman Lear. Though no one thought of King Lear, it seems.
From jet, we got all sorts of takes on that, including JET and Jet Li and an actual jet plane.
This could go on for quite some time.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
aaaaah, but you don't think I was learing at you right?
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But, I can say that the best parts of Hanukkah are: (a) Hallel Shalem (meaning you get to sing the whole Hallel on Rosh Hodesh), (b) the tune of "Banu khoshech legaresh", perfect for a horror movie, if in the right high-pitched, andante, staccato tone.
King Lear? Hanukkah? Not really. Can't see the connection with the exception of insane people.
Why don't we have Kohelet read in this weather! Argh! I hate reading it on sunny days!
But Lisa, you've got to agree that you've blown Hanukkah out of proportion. I'm not saying the Hasmonai dynasty is all fina, but the Hellanists have some recordas on the history log which aren't too flattering. Thing is, it's a good 8 days for family reunions and all that. I like the fact that Shabbat Hanukkah is also Shabbat Rosh Khodesh this year. Now, if I can only find a way to do Mussaf (as it is in the Yom-Tov tune)... Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: God specifically and intentionally shut the door on further divine revelations which add to, subtract from, or in any way modify the Torah.
And yet, in the story, God Himself weighs in on an issue to clarify a legalistic point, but acquiesces to a rabbi who tells Him, "sorry, it's not your place to do that."
I can understand the appeal, but there's a really depressing element of -- not hubris, because it's not personal pride -- whatever you'd call pride in legalism. The idea that the written Word of God is more binding than the actual words of God is something that I find perfectly in keeping with a culture that doesn't actually provide any legitimate means of escape for people born into it.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: God specifically and intentionally shut the door on further divine revelations which add to, subtract from, or in any way modify the Torah.
And yet, in the story, God Himself weighs in on an issue to clarify a legalistic point, but acquiesces to a rabbi who tells Him, "sorry, it's not your place to do that."
Sure. The same God who specifically told us that He might test us in that kind of way.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I can understand the appeal, but there's a really depressing element of -- not hubris, because it's not personal pride -- whatever you'd call pride in legalism. The idea that the written Word of God is more binding than the actual words of God is something that I find perfectly in keeping with a culture that doesn't actually provide any legitimate means of escape for people born into it.
It's not just the written word of God. In fact, the primary corpus of Jewish law and lore is the oral part of the Torah that we received at Sinai. Have a look at the Torah 101 thread, if you're interested. The Torah, complete with the instructions by which we're supposed to use it, was given to us by God. You keep missing the point that God isn't time bound the way we are. God doesn't change. If God wanted, today, for us to do X, then He could have put X into the Torah at the get-go. And if He set things up so that no further divine input could be involved, it's because He also set it up with everything it would need.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: God specifically and intentionally shut the door on further divine revelations which add to, subtract from, or in any way modify the Torah.
And yet, in the story, God Himself weighs in on an issue to clarify a legalistic point, but acquiesces to a rabbi who tells Him, "sorry, it's not your place to do that."
Sure. The same God who specifically told us that He might test us in that kind of way.
I'm very, very sorry - no blasphemy intended - but with that statement, I was reminded of that scene in Fight Club where Narrator was trying to collapse the plans for Project Mayhem, and went to the police, only to find himself horrified that many of them were already involved. He orders them to disband, and they think that he's testing them, and it was said (by him!) that if ever someone were to say what he's saying, or doing what he's doing, then, "we've gotta get your balls." - Narrator then switches around, and says something to the means of "You're right. It's a test. Carry on, and let me go". The spacemonkeys grin, and say "You told us you'd definitely say that.", and proceed to try and castrate their leader.
No real commentary on the discussion, there isn't a real parallel at all, I don't think, it's just what came to mind.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Question, If I'm not Jewish (as far as I can tell I'm not Jewish) and Jewish Law is both the Law of the land both civily and religiously what Laws would I have to follow? Would the regular Criminal and Napoleonic Code + Charter of Rights and Freedoms basically the gist of it or are their specific laws that I would have to follow?
The Noachide laws.
Definitely more lenient then past Christian and Islamic controlled governments.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Basically the major laws in todays society anyways. I already haven't broken any of them that I know of except for that body under the rug..... shuuush none of you heard that!
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Which, you know, aren't any big deal since no one should care about them enough to die for them. (And if you do, then you die, so it's still no big deal to the unchallengeable power structure.)
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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On a slightly different subject, but related...what is the Jewish tradition surrounding the Kingdom of Judah and rediscovery of a book of the law during Josiah's reign?
Immediately prior to this point, were there people still following the law faithfully somewhere in Judah, just not part of the royalty or the temple priesthood? The account in 2 Kings of the Bible makes it sound like a priest "discovered" this book of laws somewhere in the temple -- like it'd been completely forgotten. Then Josiah kind of got inspired by the whole thing and besides dedicating himself to the law, he re-instituted Passover for the first time in what sounds like hundreds of years.
Is that what Jewish tradition says about it? I mean, I assume that must be because it's not like the books labeled Kings 1 and 2 in the Bible came from some other source, right? But I have been surprised by apparent differences in Scripture before.
If that is how it happened, when and how was the rest of the law recovered? Where did the knowledge of the complete law come from to reeducate the people -- were there more rediscovered books? G-d speaking through the Prophets? Or some other way?
Maybe I'm just mistaken, but the account of Josiah's reign makes it sound as if prior to him, over the course of a few hundred years after David and Solomon, the law was not only abandoned, but lost completely and no longer part of the culture of the southern Jewish kingdom.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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starLisa, out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Karaites? Those who follow the written Torah very literally but reject rabbinic authority? I remember learning when I was 6 or 7 that they rejected Channukah, and this thread reminds me of that moment of shock.
On another note, I feel very different about my Judiasm than it is a set of laws to be followed. For me, one of the strongest parts about the faith is that so much of it is open to interpretation. There is no central authority saying, "You must believe thusly." The Scripture and the commentaries are there for all to see. The greatest thinkers have disagreed on pretty much every issue. To pick a couple small examples, I fail to see how glasses used with a milk meal and a meat meal can be washed together in a sink, but not a dishwasher. How putting a string around some telephone poles suddenly makes an enclosed area. The list continues.
Although I have respect for those who believe otherwise (four grocery stores to find rice wine with an acceptable heksher last night).
Posts: 289 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: starLisa, out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Karaites? Those who follow the written Torah very literally but reject rabbinic authority? I remember learning when I was 6 or 7 that they rejected Channukah, and this thread reminds me of that moment of shock.
On another note, I feel very different about my Judiasm than it is a set of laws to be followed. For me, one of the strongest parts about the faith is that so much of it is open to interpretation. There is no central authority saying, "You must believe thusly." The Scripture and the commentaries are there for all to see. The greatest thinkers have disagreed on pretty much every issue. To pick a couple small examples, I fail to see how glasses used with a milk meal and a meat meal can be washed together in a sink, but not a dishwasher. How putting a string around some telephone poles suddenly makes an enclosed area. The list continues.
Although I have respect for those who believe otherwise (four grocery stores to find rice wine with an acceptable heksher last night).
Good question, I'm curious what she has to say. I would assume as long as the Kairites study the torah and follow all of its laws she would have no problem with them.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: But he served the milk first, and then the meat. So it did not violate the rules of Kashrus.
well, that's what the sages concluded because in the tora the milk is written before the meat, but yes, i knew that midrash, it's like you said. but i still think that laws changed. loads of times.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Dec 2005
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