quote:Originally posted by Minerva: Is that switch a dimmer? Just curious.
Nope. A dimmer would be just as problematic. It's called a gramma switch. Gramma means indirect causation.
I met some Modern Orthodox Jews this past weekend that would use a light dimmer as long as it was not dimmed all of the way off, but would not use gramma switches. I had never heard of such a thing, which is why I was asking.
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"quote: Originally posted by TomDavidson: It's not at all uncommon -- even within Judaism -- for people to disagree strongly on not only what things are "minor," but who gets to decide which things are "minor." Not really. Not unless you count anything that any Jew says as "Judaism". In which case you could include Karl Marx, Alan Greenspan, Noam Chomsky and Scarlett Johanssen as determiners of what "Judaism" is."
How about we talk instead about The Ramba'm and the mulitple herems against him? Can we agree that Maimonedes is one of the most important determinents of Judaism of the last 2500 years?
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"If it is, then it's justified arrogance. I refer you back to my example of me trying to finish David Gerrold's Chtorr series. If I want to write a book about the Earth being invaded by a hostile organism, that's fine. But if I call it "the continuation/conclusion of David Gerrold's Chtorr series", it's not fine at all. And if Gerrold tells me that I'm barking up the wrong tree, or just plain barking, it may be arrogant, but it's legitimate."
Except that this relies upon you being able to establish a continuous single thread of judaism that leads back to Moses. And you also have to demonstrate that outgrowths from that thread of judaism have not also been considered judaism, over the last 3200 years.
Neither of these are possible.
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I second that. Pikuach Nefesh doche Shabbat. And if it's PN every week, then so be it. In fact, not turning on the switch would be an Aveira - and that, Tante Esther, is the irony in the case.
But that's the way it works. It's a sin, if not more than one, to keep the "Shabbat" literally, "fundamentalistically", without taking into account the special circumstances you're under. The way I see the morality and mortality in this case, keeping your husband alive is just a tad more important than obeying an ambiguous 3,300 y.o. rule literally according to single, unelaborated interpretation.
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I'm curious how the "3300 year old" calculation is made in this case.
Is the claim that G-d inspired the rabbi who worked out the electrical switch analogy to "lighting a fire" in the Mosaic laws?
Or did G-d actually tell the rabbi what to say?
Or, did the rabbi have the authority to extend the law to new situations without necessarily seeking a revelation from G-d, but using Scripture and commentary?
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I think the important thing to remember is that as far as the interpretation of the commandments go, there is a huge spectrum from things that pretty much everyone agrees on to things that there is a lot of controversy over. This increases as technology increases. Obviously, there is nothing in the scriptures or commentaries about respirators. So it becomes a matter of what your rabbi tells you. And Orthodox rabbis will not all give you the exact same interpretation, although it is usually very similar.
For example, my rabbi counsels not to eat any of the pre-packaged Passover food at all. He doesn't trust it. My cousin's rabbi advises that the OU heksher is not reliable for dairy, where my rabbi has no problem with it.
So it is definitely false to say that among observant Jews, there is one view. That kind of thing only comes from religions where there is a central decision making body (or person) that can create consensus.
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For example, my rabbi counsels not to eat any of the pre-packaged Passover food at all. He doesn't trust it. My cousin's rabbi advises that the OU heksher is not reliable for dairy, where my rabbi has no problem with it.
I've always been bothered by the pre packaged matzo meal used to bake cakes and bread the chicken. It just sort of seems like cheating to me.
By the way whats the deal on egg noodles for Passover? Ok or not?
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: I'm curious how the "3300 year old" calculation is made in this case.
Well, the Torah was given in 2448, which is actually 2450 according to the dating system we use today. This past Shavuot (the anniversary of the Torah having been given) was in the year 5765.
That works out to approximately 3315 years. Bringing it up to today, it'd be 3315 years, 6 months, and 21 or 22 days. Tick, tick, tick...
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Is the claim that G-d inspired the rabbi who worked out the electrical switch analogy to "lighting a fire" in the Mosaic laws?
Or did G-d actually tell the rabbi what to say?
Or, did the rabbi have the authority to extend the law to new situations without necessarily seeking a revelation from G-d, but using Scripture and commentary?
I don't think he extended the law. Could you please explain how you see an extension? I see an application.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: I think the important thing to remember is that as far as the interpretation of the commandments go, there is a huge spectrum from things that pretty much everyone agrees on to things that there is a lot of controversy over. This increases as technology increases. Obviously, there is nothing in the scriptures or commentaries about respirators. So it becomes a matter of what your rabbi tells you. And Orthodox rabbis will not all give you the exact same interpretation, although it is usually very similar.
For example, my rabbi counsels not to eat any of the pre-packaged Passover food at all. He doesn't trust it. My cousin's rabbi advises that the OU heksher is not reliable for dairy, where my rabbi has no problem with it.
So it is definitely false to say that among observant Jews, there is one view. That kind of thing only comes from religions where there is a central decision making body (or person) that can create consensus.
True. But there are absolutely lines that once crossed are outside of Judaism. Driving on Shabbat for reasons other than saving lives, for example. And even when there are different rulings in differing communities, it's still done according to the same system. Replace the system, and what one has is out of bounds regardless of the conclusions one reaches.
Also, we're supposed to have a central halakhic (Jewish legal) authority. We don't currently, but that's a temporary problem. We're commanded to, and we will. But it's not as easy as just saying, "Let's do it", and there are obstacles. Which will be overcome eventually.
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For example, my rabbi counsels not to eat any of the pre-packaged Passover food at all. He doesn't trust it. My cousin's rabbi advises that the OU heksher is not reliable for dairy, where my rabbi has no problem with it.
I've always been bothered by the pre packaged matzo meal used to bake cakes and bread the chicken. It just sort of seems like cheating to me.
See, and I have no problem with it at all. Maimonides once noted that there are enough things that we're not allowed. Adding to that is inappropriate. I eat Bac-Os. I eat any kind of mock-treyf I like. There's a veggie sausage product that, while not nearly spicy enough, can be used as a servicable topping for pizza.
There's a statement that was made by Rabbi Tarfon, one of our Sages. He said, "A person should not say: I abhor pork, and therefore I will not eat it. Rather, he should say: I crave pork, but what can I do? My Father in heaven has forbidden it."
Given a choice between a slice of Kraft cheddar cheese and a burger with fried goose breast on top (yes, it does taste like a bacon burger), there shouldn't be any question. The first one is not kosher, and the second one is (well, if it is). There used to be a restaurant in Jerusalem called La Brasa that made that kind of burger. Yum!
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: By the way whats the deal on egg noodles for Passover? Ok or not?
Why not? They aren't great, but they're certainly acceptable, assuming that they have a hechsher.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Perhaps the town where I live is atypical. We have several Orthodox shuls and one Conservative shul. The neighboring towns have a fair number of Conservative and Reform shuls, and a few Orthodox.
The Consevative shul in my town had for years a beloved rabbi who held Orthodox smicha (ordination) as well as Conservative. This shul was a bit old-fashioned in its practice -- perhaps 30 or 40 years behind the mainstream Conservative practice. Families sat together, and the congregation sang the litergy together, but women did not count in a minyan, were not permitted on the bima, and the prayers pretty closely followed the Orthodox tradition. The old beloved rabbi retired, and the congregation got a new young Conservative rabbi. He slowly began to make changes -- new Chumashim, different siddurim and maxorim, allowing the new president of the congregation (a woman) to sit up at the bima during services, and most recently, starting an egalitarian minyan, running parallel to the traditional minyan.
The congregation was largely shomer mitzvot -- Kashrut, Shabbos, Yomin Tovim were all observed by the vast majority of the congregation. The local mikveh was popular with both folk from the Conservative and the Orthodox shuls.
Since the changes, there has been an exodus from the shul -- to the Orthodox ones in town. In all, the new members of the Orthodox congregations feel right at home in their new shuls. The beleaguered Conservative shul is now trying to recruit new members not from within walking distance, but from the outlying areas.
I think you may be talking about my former shul and my beloved rabbi. The description sure sounds like it.
When we moved out of town, we joined an orthodox synagogue, though, because many conservative synagogues don't match that level of observance, and we couldn't find one that would be within walking distance. Our observance of Judaism is basically what would be called "modern orthodox."
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posted
Goose is kosher? This I did not know. My mother said I am totally not allowed to eat duck, shrimp or any pork, but I am not SDA anymore (SDA follows the rules in Leviticus, some are vegetarians. I do not want to be a vegetarian)
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For example, my rabbi counsels not to eat any of the pre-packaged Passover food at all. He doesn't trust it. My cousin's rabbi advises that the OU heksher is not reliable for dairy, where my rabbi has no problem with it.
I've always been bothered by the pre packaged matzo meal used to bake cakes and bread the chicken. It just sort of seems like cheating to me.
See, and I have no problem with it at all. Maimonides once noted that there are enough things that we're not allowed. Adding to that is inappropriate. I eat Bac-Os. I eat any kind of mock-treyf I like. There's a veggie sausage product that, while not nearly spicy enough, can be used as a servicable topping for pizza.
There's a statement that was made by Rabbi Tarfon, one of our Sages. He said, "A person should not say: I abhor pork, and therefore I will not eat it. Rather, he should say: I crave pork, but what can I do? My Father in heaven has forbidden it."
Given a choice between a slice of Kraft cheddar cheese and a burger with fried goose breast on top (yes, it does taste like a bacon burger), there shouldn't be any question. The first one is not kosher, and the second one is (well, if it is). There used to be a restaurant in Jerusalem called La Brasa that made that kind of burger. Yum!
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: By the way whats the deal on egg noodles for Passover? Ok or not?
Why not? They aren't great, but they're certainly acceptable, assuming that they have a hechsher.
I guess its the whole sacrifice way of thinking most religions do that leaks into my mind. I guess I should think of Passover as remembering rather then mimicking those events.
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I went to a restaurant in D.C. last weekend that served parve cheeseburgers, no milk or meat. I'm guessing it was all soy product, but I really didn't want to find out.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: I went to a restaurant in D.C. last weekend that served parve cheeseburgers, no milk or meat. I'm guessing it was all soy product, but I really didn't want to find out.
Do you live in the DC area? Only 20 minutes from there myself. What restaurant?
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No, I was visiting a friend. It was Eli's. I don't really know where it was, but it was walking distance from Kesher Israel, if you know where that is.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Goose is kosher? This I did not know. My mother said I am totally not allowed to eat duck, shrimp or any pork, but I am not SDA anymore (SDA follows the rules in Leviticus, some are vegetarians. I do not want to be a vegetarian)
Goose and duck are fine. So is quail and squab. Beef and bison and goat and mutton and lamb and venison are okay as well, although I don't know anywhere to get kosher goat, and venison can't be hunted; it has to basically be raised in captivity.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: I went to a restaurant in D.C. last weekend that served parve cheeseburgers, no milk or meat. I'm guessing it was all soy product, but I really didn't want to find out.
Eww...
I never liked cheeseburgers even when I was a kid, but parve cheese. <shudder> There are restaurants here in Chicago and Skokie that have kosher cheeseburgers, but the burgers, at least, are real.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: My friend served me parve bacon this past weekend. I bit into it thinking it was going to a fruit roll-up type thing.
I have mountains of things to say about how disgusting fake treyf can be.
Okay, but that was parve bacon. Not-meat is never going to be the same as meat. If you want fake bacon, get beef fry. Until I had that goose breast in Jerusalem, I thought beef fry was the best I could do, and it's not bad at all.
There's breakfast sausage links made by 999 which are strictly kosher, but don't really taste it.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: I like the Morningstar Farms!
The Morningstar Farms bacon? Have you ever had real bacon? The Morningstar Farms stuff is like bacon crackers.
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Do Orthodox Jews obey the commandment to stone to death those who fail to observe Shabbat?
Do Orthodox Jews obey the many commandments to sacrifice animals at the appointed times?
If Orthodox Jews do not observe these and many other commandments stated in the Torah, then how can Orthodox Jews claim to observe "Torah Judaism"? Have not Orthodox Jews abandoned or modified many of the mitzvot expressly stated in the text of the Torah?
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Do Orthodox Jews obey the commandment to stone to death those who fail to observe Shabbat?
Do Orthodox Jews obey the many commandments to sacrifice animals at the appointed times?
If Orthodox Jews do not observe these and many other commandments stated in the Torah, then how can Orthodox Jews claim to observe "Torah Judaism"? Have not Orthodox Jews abandoned or modified many of the mitzvot expressly stated in the text of the Torah?
Typical arguments posed by missionaries. StarLisa, go get 'em. Next he will try to say Jesus satisfies the commandment of sacrifice.
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David G, welcome to Hatrack. Might I suggest you read the entire thread before making posts like that? Those issues have already been addressed. Five or six pages ago.
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Do Orthodox Jews obey the commandment to stone to death those who fail to observe Shabbat?
Do Orthodox Jews obey the many commandments to sacrifice animals at the appointed times?
If Orthodox Jews do not observe these and many other commandments stated in the Torah, then how can Orthodox Jews claim to observe "Torah Judaism"? Have not Orthodox Jews abandoned or modified many of the mitzvot expressly stated in the text of the Torah?
In short they have been put on hold until the day comes that they can be done properly.
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quote:I never liked cheeseburgers even when I was a kid, but parve cheese. <shudder> There are restaurants here in Chicago and Skokie that have kosher cheeseburgers, but the burgers, at least, are real.
A mild derailment, but cheese ain't the most important thing on a burger at all. A toasted bun and some ketchup, and proper seasoning for the beef, these are far more important things.
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quote:Originally posted by Ela: Highland Park, NJ.
Bingo!
I thought so.
Someone want to calculate the odds that three of the . . . . um, however many frum Yidden we have on Hatrack all live/lived in (or in my case, just adjacent to) Highland Park, NJ?
posted
interesting I never even thought of the whole cheeseburger thing. *makes mental notes for future characters*
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But it was over 20 years from when I lived in Edison to when I joined Hatrack. And I don't think any of us (except perhaps SoS?) were born there.
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: David G, welcome to Hatrack. Might I suggest you read the entire thread before making posts like that? Those issues have already been addressed. Five or six pages ago.
Thank you. But, respectfully, while the issue of the differences between Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism have been debated at length, including the concept of "Torah Judaism," I do not believe the precise issues/arguments/questions raised in my post were addressed, and I was seeking to add to the debate. If I missed during my reading of this thread, however, a specific discussion on my questions, then I do apologize.
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