quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: You know what my biggest Hanukkah rant is? I can't ever figure out how to spell it. It seems like every possible way is used by SOMEONE.
Maybe y'all could start by reconciling the spelling in English, and then work from there?
<insert tongue in cheek...>
Actually, the spelling is fairly simple:
חנוכה
I spell it the way I do because the \ch\ sound at the beginning isn't as hard as a German \ch\, the \k\ sound really is doubled in Hebrew, with a dagesh dot in it, and it ends with an unvoiced \h\ in Hebrew. Hence: Hanukkah. But pretty much anything'll do.
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: A few points, which all avoid Lisa's dogmatic language that is not really viewed as true by most Jews.
Ah, Paul. Truth isn't determined by majority rule. Judaism is what it is. What it was before the Conservative movement broke away from the Reform movement, which itself was an attempt by assimilated Jews to mimic Protestantism, complete with long black robes and Sunday services.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: 1) Many conservative jews are more observant then many orthodox jews.
None, actually. The vast majority of Conservative Jews have never even heard of taharat ha-mishpacha (family purity laws), and of those few who have, the vast majority don't practice them in any way, and of those few who do, they do it wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: There's a growing segment of orthodox judaism (still small, but growing) that, at least to me, is somewhat baffling, but they are the "non-observant orthodox" jews.
Those are Jews who have abandoned observance, but at the very least retain enough self-respect to refrain from changing their principles to match their actions. I have a thousand times more respect for someone who has the moral fiber to acknowledge that they're falling short of their principles than I do for someone who has to adjust their principles to avoid feeling guilty.
They aren't Orthodox Jews. And they'd be the first to admit it. To the extent that they call themselves "non-observant Orthodox", what they mean is that while they are no longer frum, they still recognize that Torah Judaism is correct and that they simply aren't living up to it.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: 2) Its pretty hard to have a "very small" segment of a group that is "above average."
Not so. Mean and medium. Look it up.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: 3) Lisa is badly mistaken in asserting that conservative jews do not accept rabbinic law. This is an out and out falsehood. I've called lisa on this before, and I expect other jews here have as well.
It is not a falsehood. The Conservative movement from its outset abandoned the halakhic process, and substituted certain German schools of philosophy. By viewing the written texts of Judaism through this lens, they thoroughly distorted what the texts themselves said.
For example, Jewish law includes the concepts of l'chat'chila and b'di'eved. To illustrate these concepts, let's take prayer. A man is supposed to pray with a minyan, which means ten or more males over the age of bar mitzvah (13 years and a day). But what if there isn't a minyan to be found? There are laws about what changes need to be made in the prayers in such a case.
We'd say, "L'chat'chila, a man should pray with a minyan, but b'di'eved, if there is no minyan, he still has to pray, but slightly differently."
Well, the Conservative movement went through all of the legal texts available and found every single b'di'eved position, and every single da'at yachid, or singular (tiny minority) view they could, and said it was okay to do that l'chat'chila. After all, if it was ever okay to do it, then it was okay. Which may be legitimate reasoning in terms of German philosophy, but it's foreign to Judaism.
Eventually, of course, they went even beyond that. The Torah says a kohen cannot marry a divorcee. But big shot Conservative Jews named Cohen or Katz would have quit their synagogue memberships if they were told that they couldn't marry a divorcee, so the Conservative movement tossed that one out. God apparently didn't really mean it. Not where the building fund was concerned.
They also realized that while Orthodox Jews would make a major effort to live within walking distance of a synagogue, Conservative Jews were more interested in living where their social peers lived. And they simply had to have enormous edifaces to pray in, which couldn't be moved easily. So they decided to get rid of the thing about not lighting fire on Shabbat as well. They told their membership that if you weren't within walking distance of a Conservative synagogue, you could drive to one, and drive back.
Note that if you're within walking distance of an Orthodox synagogue, but not within walking distance of a Conservative one, this permission still applies. Which kind of shows that it wasn't about being able to pray, so much as it was about retaining their dues-paying membership.
Those are only two examples of the Conservative movement going beyond rejecting "mere rabbinic authority", and rejecting God's. But even beyond that, they don't even accept that God gave the Torah at Sinai. Not even the written part.
When Conservative Jews keep kosher, it's a kind of ethnic observance. It has nothing to do with it having been commanded by God, because they don't actually believe God commanded it.
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I think she is writing from her own experience. From what I have seen each Conservative and Reform congregation can vary widely on beliefs and practices. I've never witnessed the black robes and Sunday services she speaks of, though she may have been talking about when the movements first started. The Reform temple I grew up with had a 45 minute service, a lot of English, and transliterated Hebrew and not much else. The one I attend now has a much longer service, torah study on Saturday mornings, and a lot more Hebrew. I do agree with her about them being as far from Orthodox as Protestants are from Catholics.
Quesion. My Rabbi mentioned recently that for those of us that wanted to keep Chanukah and Christmas seperate we may want to adopt an Israeli custum. He said in Israel that gifts are exchanged on Rosh Hashanah. Is this true? I've always known Chanukah gift exchange was strictly western European and American, but I've never heard of this before.
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quote:My Rabbi mentioned recently that for those of us that wanted to keep Chanukah and Christmas separate we may want to adopt an Israeli custom. He said in Israel that gifts are exchanged on Rosh Hashanah.
I have many relatives in Israel, who cover the range from the far right (charedi) to the far left (Reform) -- and every shade in between. To the best of my knowledge, not one of them gives gifts on Rosh Hashanah.
There is a Jewish tradition of giving gifts, but with the exception of Purim, I know of NO date that gift-giving is traditionally connected to.
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quote: Tom, it is the official position of the Conservative movement.
As I understand it, many Conservative Jews simply interpret the position "God commanded it" differently.
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*shrug* The official position, as I read it (and I just checked a few sites to make sure I was remembering correctly) is that the Torah was not dictated but inspired. Moreover, that practice of the Law (as they have reinterpreted it) is "normative" but not required.
If you want to call that a different interpretation, go right ahead.
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I'm not on my home computer, but rather on my father's laptop... which my hands don't really fit comfortably on. I do have a larger response to lisa, but for now just the short response
1) You're wrong. I've met jews (many) who consider themselves orthodox but are less observant then I am, and I'm well, almost totally unobservant. So a) they aren't the first to tell us that they aren't orthodox b) there are conservative jews more observant then some orthodox jews
2) I know what median and mean are. I also know that observancy is of a class more likely to fit a gaussian distribution then a "camel hump" distribution, especially one as skewed as you would have us believe exists
3) COnservative jews do accept rabbinic law. The method of interpretation of torah and chain of authority is different from orthodoxy. This does not mean that conservative jews reject rabbinic authority, which is your stated position. That position is false, and you can go look at any conservative movement web site to see that your statement is false.
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quote:It has nothing to do with it having been commanded by God, because they don't actually believe God commanded it.
This might be a bit of a stretch, sL, and reflects your own disdain for this position.
I'm listening. If you think it's a stretch, could you elaborate? The absolutely fundamental, core premise in Judaism is that God gave us the Torah at Sinai, and that the Torah we have is the Torah He gave us.
Every time we read Torah in synagogue, Monday, Thursday and Saturday mornings, and Saturday afternoons, plus assorted holidays, we do a thing called hagbah between the reading and putting the Torah back in the ark. It consists of the Torah being raised up, and the entire congregation singing out, "And this is the Torah which Moses placed before the Children of Israel, dictated by God, in Moses's hand." Conservative Jews say this as well. The difference is, when we say it, we actually mean it. When they say it, they chalk it up to metaphor. If they think about it at all.
To the Conservatives, Judaism is an element of their lives. To Torah Jews, our lives are an element of Judaism. You can't really get more different than that.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Tom, it is the official position of the Conservative movement.
Earlier this year (2005), we set out to find a school for Tova, since she started kindergarten this fall. There are two modern Orthodox K-8 day schools in our area. Both of them refused to accept her, because her mothers are icky. We were so upset by this that we actually went and did a tour of the local Solomon Schechter school, which is Conservative.
I hated the thought of it, because I knew I'd have to unteach her at the end of every day, and playing tug of war with teachers, using your child as a rope... it's not good for anyone.
But the Hebrew curriculum was really good, and academically, it's better than either of the two schools we'd looked at first.
And then the woman doing the tour said, "You do know that we teach according to Emet v'Emunah, right?"
See, a few years back (probably more than a few now, but time flies), the movement decided to write a thing setting down official Conservative positions on various issues. They called it Emet v'Emunah, which means "Truth and Faith" (savor the irony).
You can't find a copy of this online. You have to buy it. Which in and of itself is interesting. But I asked this woman what in particular she was referring to, and she said that they don't teach that God gave the Torah at Sinai.
Well, that was a deal breaker. We actually lucked out through all of this (not that it felt that way at the time), because the school she's going to now, even though it's a major trek for a 5 year old, has a teaching philosophy that I could only have dreamt of as a kid, and it's Orthodox, albeit a bit on the pluralistic side. But it's sort of like a twisted version of the Groucho Marx joke. Any club we'd want to be members of won't have us.
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quote: The difference is, when we say it, we actually mean it. When they say it, they chalk it up to metaphor. If they think about it at all.
You're out of line.
Knock it off.
I don't mind discussions on doctrinal differences, but when you start assigning motives derogatively like this, I get disgusted. It's a pathetic way to try to get your point across.
Give us your opinion without the vitriol, or be quiet.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I think she is writing from her own experience. From what I have seen each Conservative and Reform congregation can vary widely on beliefs and practices.
It doesn't matter. I know Reform Jews who keep kosher (more or less). It's like wearing a necklace with a star of David on it. It's an ethnic thing. They do it because they choose to. Because it gives them a feeling of ethnic connectedness. Not because God commanded it.
See, the laws are called mitzvot for a reason. The word doesn't mean "good deed". It means "commandment". That means it's mandatory. That you don't get to decide whether it feels good to you or not. You just get to decide whether to be a law-abiding Jew or an outlaw.
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I've never witnessed the black robes and Sunday services she speaks of, though she may have been talking about when the movements first started. The Reform temple I grew up with had a 45 minute service, a lot of English, and transliterated Hebrew and not much else. The one I attend now has a much longer service, torah study on Saturday mornings, and a lot more Hebrew.
I shudder to think what that "Torah study" consists of.
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I do agree with her about them being as far from Orthodox as Protestants are from Catholics.
Quesion. My Rabbi mentioned recently that for those of us that wanted to keep Chanukah and Christmas seperate we may want to adopt an Israeli custum. He said in Israel that gifts are exchanged on Rosh Hashanah. Is this true?
I lived in Israel for a dozen years. I never heard of such a thing. And the idea that something like that is needed to keep the two separate simply makes me want to cry.
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I've always known Chanukah gift exchange was strictly western European and American, but I've never heard of this before.
Jews have been giving Hanukkah gelt for longer than Christians have been giving Christmas presents. The modern commercialism of Christmas is barely a century old, and it's true that the commercialism that some Jews indulge in on Hanukkah was an attempt to copy that, but giving Hanukkah gelt isn't mimicry.
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I just wanted to point out something that may not be obvious to everyone. There laws extend to religious practices, but they also extend to more "every day things." Like what to do if the tree on your neighbor's property falls onto your property, breaking something. Or what to do if the lettering on a gravestone is no longer readable.
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Lisa- You are dead wrong about why conservative and reform jews keep kosher. I can point to 5 in my own family who keep kosher because god commanded it.
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quote: The difference is, when we say it, we actually mean it. When they say it, they chalk it up to metaphor. If they think about it at all.
You're out of line.
Knock it off.
I don't mind discussions on doctrinal differences, but when you start assigning motives derogatively like this, I get disgusted. It's a pathetic way to try to get your point across.
Give us your opinion without the vitriol, or be quiet.
I apologize if it came across as vitriolic. It wasn't meant that way. Other than me and three of my first cousins, all of my family is Conservative (okay, a few are Reform). I grew up in the Conservative movement, and I wasn't the run-of-the-mill Conservative Jew, either. I'm not standing on the outside looking in on something I don't really know about and throwing stones.
Most serious Conservative Jews are quite aware of the problem their movement has. It has been utterly unable to provide a sound basis for generational continuity and survival, and this is a crisis that Conservative leaders are very much aware of. A very large percentage of highly educated Conservative Jews just reach the point where they realize it doesn't work, and they become Orthodox.
A couple of years ago, one of the teachers at the Jewish Theological Seminary, which is the Conservative rabbinical school in New York, came to speak here in Chicago. He found himself talking to a group of highly educated Conservative Jews, and was completely demoralized by the time he left. He didn't know what to do with them, because they were so different than what he'd expected, which was a bunch of suburban yuppies soaking up his wisdom and trying not to make too much noise opening candy wrappers. I grew up going to that kind of synagogue.
This rabbi, Neil Gillman, was such a lost soul that I pretty much stood back and refrained from saying much. It would have been like shooting ducks in a barrel, and anyway, everyone there knew I was Orthodox, and it wasn't really for me to do. They were eviscerating him themselves without any help from me.
At the end of his last talk, I raised my hand after he'd made some comments about the problems the movement has, and I asked him, as gently as I could, whether he didn't think that what he'd just said implied a fundamental flaw in the movement which would prevent it from ever really being what they wanted it to be. His only response was that if they had more people like me applying to their rabbinical school, they wouldn't be having this problem.
Of course, half a dozen people stood up and yelled at him that I wouldn't be accepted even if I did apply (being that I'm gay and all), which was kind of cute.
Anyway, here's an excerpt from an article in the Jewish Week earlier this month, reporting on comments made by Rabbi Neil Gillman at a Conservative conference:
quote:Responding to perceptions that Conservative Judaism is spiritually listless and on the decline, a major thinker in the movement called this week for it to acknowledge that it is not bound by halacha, or Jewish law.
In calling for a new vision at the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism's biennial in Boston, Rabbi Neil Gillman, professor of Jewish philosophy at the Jewish Theological Seminary, argued that calling itself a halachic movement is intellectually dishonest and has failed to inspire increased religious commitment of congregants.
"We have to be open and honest, and try to project a religious vision, a theological vision," Rabbi Gillman told The Jewish Week.
Conservative Jews should instead distinguish themselves from other liberal movements by their liturgy, their ritual practice and their loyalty to Conservative Jewish institutions, he said...
Rabbi Gillman said there is little difference between the religious practice of Conservative and Reform Jews outside the synagogue, and that "if we are a halachic community, it has to be because we want to be, not because we have to be. Then we have to explain why we want to be, and we have done neither."
Okay, was Gillman being "vitriolic"? Or was he simply stating the facts about his movement?
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quote:The absolutely fundamental, core premise in Judaism is that God gave us the Torah at Sinai, and that the Torah we have is the Torah He gave us.
Hm. This may be the source of your disagreement. Most Conservative Jews I know would not in fact say that this is the fundamental premise of Judaism.
quote:Okay, was Gillman being "vitriolic"? Or was he simply stating the facts about his movement?
In my experience, Conservative Jews do not believe that a single rabbi is entitled to speak for the "movement."
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: I shudder to think what that "Torah study" consists of.
You probably would. I do at times. But I love talking religion, and for me its a small step.
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: I never heard of such a thing. And the idea that something like that is needed to keep the two separate simply makes me want to cry.
I don't know. Giving gifts to family is just fun to me. If only there was some purely secular day that Americans could celebrate. Maybe move the gift giving to Thanksgiving? (I assume that although it started with the Puritans its not a bad day to celebrate?) That would make everyone happy I think, even the Christians who are tired of Christmas commercialism.
[ December 27, 2005, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]
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quote: Tom, it is the official position of the Conservative movement.
As I understand it, many Conservative Jews simply interpret the position "God commanded it" differently.
Rationalization, Tom, is a vice. All the more so when it comes after the fact. It's not as though some genius stood up one day and cried, "Eureka! Maybe 'God commanded it' doesn't really mean 'God commanded it!'" and everyone was off to the Conservative races. No. There were Jews who were already violating the law, and the rationalization of words not meaning what they actually mean came after the fact to justify the wrongdoing and to assuage guilt feelings.
It's a racket.
God said "Don't light a fire on Shabbat". He said, "Do it and you die." He even included a vignette in the Torah where a guy who didn't even get to the igniting part, but merely gathered sticks on Shabbat, was stoned to death for doing so.
Oh, but maybe He didn't really mean it. Gevalt.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: *shrug* The official position, as I read it (and I just checked a few sites to make sure I was remembering correctly) is that the Torah was not dictated but inspired.
I've always enjoyed that last one. God inspired us to write that He gave us the Torah. So basically, God inspired us to lie.
Yeah... I'll stick with the God whose signet is Truth.
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"God inspired us to write that He gave us the Torah. So basically, God inspired us to lie."
That doesn't follow at all. THere aren't really good analogies, but if I convince my brother to run for political office, give him the messages he should convey, and write many of his speeches for him, and my brother wins political office, it is not literally, but metaphorically true, that I gave him the office.
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Perhaps you could point out exactly what portion would be a lie, were the books inspired rather than dictated/written directly by God?
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: I'm not on my home computer, but rather on my father's laptop... which my hands don't really fit comfortably on. I do have a larger response to lisa, but for now just the short response
1) You're wrong. I've met jews (many) who consider themselves orthodox but are less observant then I am, and I'm well, almost totally unobservant.
I doubt your account. Sorry. And if you're being straight about it, then those people you know are engaging in self-deception.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: So a) they aren't the first to tell us that they aren't orthodox b) there are conservative jews more observant then some orthodox jews
I disagree. But again, as I pointed out earlier, lack of observance isn't the problem with the Conservative movement. It's a symptom. It's an outgrowth of their abandonment of the entire halakhic system, and their replacement of that system with German philosophy.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: 2) I know what median and mean are. I also know that observancy is of a class more likely to fit a gaussian distribution then a "camel hump" distribution, especially one as skewed as you would have us believe exists
Okay, since you're going to pick at this irrelevant point over and over, let me rephrase it. The vast majority of Conservative Jews don't even know that taharat ha-mishpacha exists. Probably about 90% of them haven't even heard the term. If 30% of Conservative Jews keep kosher to any extent at all, that's a lot. And that includes people who don't bother buying kosher cheese, people who eat out at non-kosher restaurants but just don't eat meat there, and people who keep some form of kashrut in their homes, but will gorge on lobster and shrimp if they're eating out.
Now. I'd said:
quote:Even the very few Conservative Jews who are above averagely observant for Conservative still have the major problem that their movement rejects rabbinic authority, and whatever Jewish law they do follow is arrived at incorrectly.
Let me change "above averagely observant for Conservative" to "above averagely observant even for those Conservative Jews who claim to be 'observant'". Is that better?
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: 3) COnservative jews do accept rabbinic law.
Conservative Jews do nothing of the sort. If I decide to call this teaspoon sitting next to me a 2003 Chevrolet Achieva, and I offer to sell someone a 2003 Chevrolet Achieva for $200, I can't give him the teaspoon and just say, "That's the terminology I use." Words have meanings, Paul. And the Conservative movement can try and co-opt words that already have a meaning until they turn blue in the face. It's not going to make it true.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: The method of interpretation of torah and chain of authority is different from orthodoxy.
That's an integral part of the Torah. Face it, Paul. The Reform movement broke away from Judaism because there were so many Jews already violating Jewish law that they needed someone to pat their hands and tell them it was okay. And the only reason the Conservative movement broke away from Reform (and yes, it broke away from Reform; not from Torah Judaism) was because the Reformers were moving away from Judaism just a tad faster than they could swallow.
Were you taught about the "treyfa banquet", Paul? Where the Conservative movement was born? Check out Dorff's book on the history of the movement. He's Conservative himself, so you can't accuse him of bias.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: This does not mean that conservative jews reject rabbinic authority, which is your stated position. That position is false, and you can go look at any conservative movement web site to see that your statement is false.
No, Paul. I can go to any Conservative website to see Conservative Jews using words that already have meanings, which they are attempting to graft to things they never meant. It's dishonest, Paul.
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quote:To give an example, most Orthodox Jews won't eat any non-kosher food. This basically rules out going to any restaurants, except for in areas where there is enough of a critical mass to have kosher restaurants.
That's rather misleading. In point of fact, it actually means that Orthodox Jews tend to live in coherent communities, while Conservative do not. Which, arguably, is one of the points of keeping kosher.
Actually, I have always felt that having to be within reasonable walking distance of a synagogue was more of an influence on the formation of coherent orthodox Jewish communities. Orthodox Jews will not drive to the synagogue on the Sabbath and on the major Jewish holidays, whereas most conservative Jews do drive to synagogue.
Having kosher restaurants close by is just a by-product of having a critical mass of kashrut observant Jews (which can include both orthodox and non-orthodox Jews) in a given area. Since orthodox Jews only eat kosher, and many non-orthodox Jews are more lax in what they will eat, the kosher restaurants tend to open close to orthodox Jewish communities.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: None, actually. The vast majority of Conservative Jews have never even heard of taharat ha-mishpacha (family purity laws), and of those few who have, the vast majority don't practice them in any way, and of those few who do, they do it wrong.
Do you have statistics for that statement? I have known many conservative Jews who practice taharat ha-mishpacha and do it correctly.
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quote:The absolutely fundamental, core premise in Judaism is that God gave us the Torah at Sinai, and that the Torah we have is the Torah He gave us.
Hm. This may be the source of your disagreement. Most Conservative Jews I know would not in fact say that this is the fundamental premise of Judaism.
I'm sure that's true. Most Conservative Jews would probably deny that there is a fundamental premise in Judaism.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Okay, was Gillman being "vitriolic"? Or was he simply stating the facts about his movement?
In my experience, Conservative Jews do not believe that a single rabbi is entitled to speak for the "movement."
No, they actually have a cute shell-game variant. When it comes to justifying their movement as being based at least somewhat on the Torah, they say that the vast majority of Conservative Jews who aren't observant aren't really Conservative. But when they want to boast about being the largest "denomination" (God save us) in America, all of a sudden, those poor relations get counted. It's quite convenient.
The Reform movement found that it was hemorraging members. They existed for a generation of people who needed a cushion on their way out of Judaism. Why they should have been surprised when their kids kept going through the exit door is beyond me. Their intermarriage rates were enormous. So were their plain old drop out rates.
So they changed the rules. If you're losing a game of chess, the easiest thing is to just say that all of your pieces can move like the queen, right? They did the equivalent. They proclaimed that the children of non-Jewish mothers were all of a sudden Jews, if they had Jewish fathers and had done anything whatsoever in a temple framework. Gah.
And they started proselytizing, which was kind of cool, because they'd also relaxed the rules for converting to the point that one well known Reform rabbi was advertising a day-long seminar in Florida. Pay him up front, and you'd walk out a "Jew".
As a result, their numbers boomed. Of course, if we were to decide one day that all Muslims count as Orthodox Jews, we'd be humongous. We'd be dishonest, but to some people, I guess humongous is more important.
The Conservative movement has started doing some proselytizing themselves now. And they even have wacky seminars now. There's a guy who'll convert you over the Internet. Yippee! And their intermarriage rate, despite their looser rules for conversion and the proselytizing, are scarily high.
Have a look here, for example. And bear in mind that the numbers for the Reform and Conservative are actually made significantly lower by their conversion practices and the Reform "patrilineal descent" decision, each of which causes marriages which are intermarriage by Jewish law to be labeled as non-intermarriages.
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: "God inspired us to write that He gave us the Torah. So basically, God inspired us to lie."
That doesn't follow at all. THere aren't really good analogies, but if I convince my brother to run for political office, give him the messages he should convey, and write many of his speeches for him, and my brother wins political office, it is not literally, but metaphorically true, that I gave him the office.
And if, in one of those speeches, your brother says that he wrote all the speeches himself, he'd be a liar. Yes?
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I'm still waiting for you to point out which parts of the Torah would be a lie if they were inspired, not dictated.
I appreciate that you're willing to clearly state your own belief, but when you start calling other people liars something more than statement of your own belief would be appreciated.
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I'm going to be toning it down a bit. I've probably been getting a little too hot under the collar, and I apologize for that.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: I'm going to be toning it down a bit. I've probably been getting a little too hot under the collar, and I apologize for that.
The whole not causing distress to a fellow Jew thing apply here?
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: I'm going to be toning it down a bit. I've probably been getting a little too hot under the collar, and I apologize for that.
The whole not causing distress to a fellow Jew thing apply here?
Nah. Just that it was pointed out to me that I was getting a little flamey even for me.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Lisa, you just wouldn't be Lisa if you lacked passion. And an affinity for ferocious debate.
Uh... who would I be? That could be a cool thread. Who would I be without the rants, who would you be without the every-26-second posts, etc. <grin>
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Your passion is rather interesting to read, I must admit.
But I can be passionate without beating quite as hard on people.
True... Still, I am learning quite a bit about Judism I never knew, though it is still a bit confusing.
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"I doubt your account. Sorry. And if you're being straight about it, then those people you know are engaging in self-deception."
And I'm sorry, as well, but I seriously doubt that you have the sorts of experiences with conservative judaism that allow you to speak honestly of it.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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Paul, I grew up Conservative. I was a camper at Camp Ramah in Wisconsin for four years. The next year, I went on Ramah Israel Seminar. After that, I spent four years on staff at Ramah in Wisconsin. Two years on cabin staff, and two on support staff, one of which was as a synagogue skills teacher.
I gave serious thought to going to JTS for college, to the point where I had started filling out an application to the joint JTS/Columbia program.
I was by far and away not the average Conservative Jew. Ramah in Wisconsin is run under the auspices of the Jewish Theological Seminary. They make a big deal of that. And they have stronger de facto educational requirements than most of the other Ramah camps, mostly because they have the largest geographical area, so they can insist on campers and staff having the requisite education.
Most Conservative leaders come out of the Ramah camps. Then again, a not-inconsiderable number of Orthodox Jews do, as well.
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Starlisa- I don't mean to say you are lying about having been conservative. I mean to say that your abandonment and subsequent rigorous adoption of orthodox judaism has left you incapable of speaking honestly of conservative judaism.
As for the claims of mine that you doubt, suit yourself. Its one more layer of cobwebs you have to shake out of your eyes before you see the world clearly, though.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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I am baffled by the anger towards the Conservative movement. I think it's hard to argue that they are not "less halakhically correct," follow the law less strictly. Almost with exception, Conservative Jews follow fewer commandments and follow them less strictly than the Modern Orthodox. There are exceptions, and I actually know several. But in general, I think the Conservative are "less observant." And I would no problems with efforts to gently and lovingly instructing them in mitzvot, and hoping that many chose to join Modern Orthodox shuls.
However, I think it is simply incorrect to say that the serve no purpose. I think that a very large majority of Americans, if denied the option of a Conservative synagogue, would simply not go any. While there is probably a certain percentage that is simply ignorant of the reasons behind certain Jewish practices, there is also a fair number that know and chose to reject for whatever reason. Whether the rejection is justified is another topic, and really an issue, I believe, between a Jew and G-d. It is not for me to judge.
Anyway, I think one important role of the Conservative synagogues is illustrated on this thread. Families that would have left Judiasm completely stay, and their children maintain their Jewish identity, become drawn to investigate more observant practices and chose to adopt them. In addition, attendance in a Conservative synagogue gives a general familiarity with many Jewish practices, including a general ability to read Hebrew. Someone "investigating" a Modern Orthodox synagogue will not feel completely out of place, and will be that more comfortable and willing to go back again.
Conservative Jews do educate their children and themselves in Judiasm. If during a Torah study they read the scripture, they are learning something. As long as they are not trying to actively prove to Torah wrong and treating it with respect, they are learning about the law. I have a hard time believing that time spent trying to find meaning in the Torah is anything but positive.
This whole argument falls apart if you believe that if there were no Conservative shuls, everyone would become Orthodox. And there is really no way to tell, just a general feeling.
I appologize if part of this post is unclear, I tried as much as possible to make it generally accessible.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Perhaps the town where I live is atypical. We have several Orthodox shuls and one Conservative shul. The neighboring towns have a fair number of Conservative and Reform shuls, and a few Orthodox.
The Consevative shul in my town had for years a beloved rabbi who held Orthodox smicha (ordination) as well as Conservative. This shul was a bit old-fashioned in its practice -- perhaps 30 or 40 years behind the mainstream Conservative practice. Families sat together, and the congregation sang the litergy together, but women did not count in a minyan, were not permitted on the bima, and the prayers pretty closely followed the Orthodox tradition. The old beloved rabbi retired, and the congregation got a new young Conservative rabbi. He slowly began to make changes -- new Chumashim, different siddurim and maxorim, allowing the new president of the congregation (a woman) to sit up at the bima during services, and most recently, starting an egalitarian minyan, running parallel to the traditional minyan.
The congregation was largely shomer mitzvot -- Kashrut, Shabbos, Yomin Tovim were all observed by the vast majority of the congregation. The local mikveh was popular with both folk from the Conservative and the Orthodox shuls.
Since the changes, there has been an exodus from the shul -- to the Orthodox ones in town. In all, the new members of the Orthodox congregations feel right at home in their new shuls. The beleaguered Conservative shul is now trying to recruit new members not from within walking distance, but from the outlying areas.
I personally find distaste in the designations "Orthodox" "Conservative" "Reform" and all that. To me, it is black and white -- you are Jewish or you are not. Levels of observance may vary, of course, but there is not one Jew who can do NONE of the mitzvos and not one Jew who can do ALL of them. It is just impossible. So we all do some. But some Jews try harder to do more of them than other Jews do.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Most Conservative Jews I know would not in fact say that this is the fundamental premise of Judaism.
