I don't know. Is that the story as you've learned it?
rajel -- do you have examples? I was challenged to produce some, but I'm not well equipped to do so at the moment.
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I don't know. Is that the story as you've learned it?
I was under the impression that he found the book of deuteronomy, then proceeded to gather together the scrolls that make up the Hebrew Scriptures. Not replacing old laws, but rediscovering them.
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quote: If we weren't Orthodox, you might have a point.
when you say "we" you mean you and your partner, don't you? and how do other orthodox take this?
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Whatever. Now explain how Amram married his aunt. The fact is, midrashim are midrashim. We don't take them literally. Og didn't necessarily survive the Flood by hanging onto the side of the Ark. The Midrash Says is not a history book.
My Rabbi says almost the same. But he says "The Tora is not a history book"
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: On a slightly different subject, but related...what is the Jewish tradition surrounding the Kingdom of Judah and rediscovery of a book of the law during Josiah's reign?
Cool! You're a Lostie, too.
Actually, Eko got it more or less right. Josiah was the son of a vile critter named Amon, who only reigned for 2 years before being assassinated. Amon's father was Manasseh, son of Hezekiah (who gets mentioned a lot by Isaiah, who was his father-in-law). Manasseh had the longest reign in our history -- 55 years. At the beginning, he was incredibly horrible. An idolator (watch Dag go after me for that), and an active enemy of the Torah. Later in his reign, he repented somewhat, but it clearly was too late to make much of an impression on his son Amon.
When Josiah became king, he was pretty young. If I recall correctly, he was only 8. So someone was a regent for him, and presumably things kept going in the same direction that they had under Amon.
Eventually, Josiah had a spiritual awakening of sorts, and gave orders that the Temple be put back in order. During the renovations, they discovered the actual copy of the Torah that had been written by Moses. Moses had written 13 copies, one for each tribe and one to be kept in the Holy Ark. My guess is that this was the latter, since the Ark was in the Temple.
When they opened the book to look at it, well, remember that they didn't have bound books like we do nowadays. They were scrolls, wound around two wooden sticks. So when you open it up, it's at a particular place in the book. When they opened up this scroll, it was at the section where God threatens all sorts of nastiness if we don't keep His commandments.
This freaked Josiah and everyone else out, and they started a major renaissance. Josiah wiped out the high places, where people were sacrificing outside of the Temple. He pulled down all the shrines to Baal and Astarte and the rest of the fake deities that had multiplied in Judah after Hezekiah's death.
The northern kingdom of Israel had by this time been completely destroyed by the Assyrians, and the people mostly deported. The Assyrians colonized the vacated areas with tribes they'd conquered further north from us, and these tribes were the precursors of the Samaritans.
Josiah even campaigned into Samaritan-held territory (which, remember, was still Israel, regardless of who was controlling it at the time) to destroy some of the idolatrous stuff up there.
He did good. But it was too late. After he'd reigned for about 29 years (the renaissance started in his 18th, I think), Assyria found itself being ripped to shreds by a coalition of Babylonians and Medes and the like. Egypt, under Neku II (Pharaoh Necho of the Bible) rode out to help the Assyrians. Josiah knew that idolators weren't allowed on our soil, and he thought that the good stuff he'd done was enough to get God to help out. So he rode out to stop the Egyptians from passing through. It was a mistake. Josiah took an arrow in battle and died.
He'd done enough damage, though, that the Egyptians couldn't continue the campaign that year, and didn't actually get up to fight the Battle of Carchemish until the following year. But in the intervening time, they deposed Josiah's son and set a different son on the throne as a puppet. And so on and so forth. That's already a lot more than you'd asked for.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Immediately prior to this point, were there people still following the law faithfully somewhere in Judah, just not part of the royalty or the temple priesthood?
There were. For example, Jeremiah (granted, he was of a priestly family, but a lot of people were), Hulda and Zephaniah were leaders in those days. But it was pretty bad. During the days of Manasseh and Amon, things had gotten dangerous for those Jews remaining loyal to the Torah, and a lot of them had to hide out.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: The account in 2 Kings of the Bible makes it sound like a priest "discovered" this book of laws somewhere in the temple -- like it'd been completely forgotten.
Well, it had been about 70 years or so. Enough time for a couple of generations to be born without having been raised knowing about the Torah. Think of the Soviet Union.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Then Josiah kind of got inspired by the whole thing and besides dedicating himself to the law, he re-instituted Passover for the first time in what sounds like hundreds of years.
It wasn't that he re-instituted it. Though he may have. Remember, the Temple was in Jerusalem, and with the king against Jewish practice, there wouldn't have been any way to bring the pascal offering. But it wasn't hundreds of years.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Is that what Jewish tradition says about it? I mean, I assume that must be because it's not like the books labeled Kings 1 and 2 in the Bible came from some other source, right? But I have been surprised by apparent differences in Scripture before.
That's pretty much what happened. The Sanhedrin went underground, and while people in outlying areas were fairly safe to practice Judaism, urban areas weren't. The kind of control that existed anywhere in those days, Israel, Egypt, Mesopotamia, what have you, was nothing like what exists today, of course. Think of Spanish conquerers coming in and insisting that local paganism was forbidden. In many cases, people would just hide it. Think of Jews during the Spanish Inquisition. Same kind of thing.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: If that is how it happened, when and how was the rest of the law recovered? Where did the knowledge of the complete law come from to reeducate the people -- were there more rediscovered books? G-d speaking through the Prophets? Or some other way?
Oh, it was never stamped out. Just barred from official life in the kingdom and the like. We kept on teaching the Torah when the Romans made it a capital crime. We went on circumcizing our sons when that was forbidden on pain of death. One of the reasons we got this job was that we're really, really stubborn. Stiffnecked, you know. A bad king or two was never going to stop us. It just made for a difficult period.
And remember also that the Davidic dynasty is important. You know the thing in the Arthurian stories where "the king is the land"? Well, with us, the king is the people. Josiah's repentance was a major thing.
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Maybe I'm just mistaken, but the account of Josiah's reign makes it sound as if prior to him, over the course of a few hundred years after David and Solomon, the law was not only abandoned, but lost completely and no longer part of the culture of the southern Jewish kingdom.
It was the culture of the people living in that kingdom. But it had been banned from the official life of the kingdom.
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I'm curious, there's a list of things taken by Babylon from the temple at the end of 2 Kings. It doesn't list the ark of the covenant. Any tradition that says it was actually still in the temple at the time of the exile of Judah? If so, was it taken into Babylon? Hidden? Destroyed?
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: rajel -- do you have examples? I was challenged to produce some, but I'm not well equipped to do so at the moment.
well, the reading of tora. in ancient times, when you were called to the Tora, to read your "aliah" ( a section of the weekly section called parasha) you had to say the blessing, and then read. but what happened if you couldn't read? there was this Baal Kriah ("owner of the lecture", who read it for you. to avoid the embarrasment of the men who had to say that they needed a baal kriah, now there's allways a baal kriah, and he/she read the section for you.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: starLisa, out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Karaites? Those who follow the written Torah very literally but reject rabbinic authority? I remember learning when I was 6 or 7 that they rejected Channukah, and this thread reminds me of that moment of shock.
Well, the Karaites got their start when a guy named Anan ben David was passed over for the post of Exilarch in Babylon. The Sages had backed the other guy, so in a snit, Anan started a "movement" that rejected the Torah, and used the Written Torah alone. So yeah, they rejected Hanukkah, because it's not in the Bible.
The funny thing was that they quickly found that the Written Torah doesn't work on its own, and started making up their own oral traditions. Pity, because they could have just used the ones that God gave us.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: On another note, I feel very different about my Judiasm than it is a set of laws to be followed. For me, one of the strongest parts about the faith is that so much of it is open to interpretation. There is no central authority saying, "You must believe thusly."
<sigh> I grew up hearing that. "We're not like the Catholics. We don't have a Pope. We can do whatever works for us." And it's true, we don't have a Pope. But we do have an absolute authority, even though it's not currently active. It's not a "roll your own" thing. And there are black lines that when crossed result in something that isn't Judaism at all.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: The Scripture and the commentaries are there for all to see.
Those commentaries aren't just commentaries. They are explanations. The word "peirush" really shouldn't be translated as commentary, because it has a connotation that the original Hebrew doesn't support.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: The greatest thinkers have disagreed on pretty much every issue. To pick a couple small examples, I fail to see how glasses used with a milk meal and a meat meal can be washed together in a sink, but not a dishwasher.
Have you ever asked why that is, instead of just saying, "I fail to see"? And actually, you wouldn't put them in the sink together to be washed anyway.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: How putting a string around some telephone poles suddenly makes an enclosed area. The list continues.
Again, do you know what the source is of the laws of eruvin? Or does it just make no sense to you? Do you think anything is going to make sense to you if you don't know what the reasons are?
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: Although I have respect for those who believe otherwise (four grocery stores to find rice wine with an acceptable heksher last night).
Why'd you bother, if you feel the way you do?
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Didn't he find the book of Deuteronomy?
Nope. The whole Torah. Pentateuch. Five books of Moses. The idea that he just found Deuteronomy was made up by the people who invented the Documentary Hypothesis, and no, I really, really don't feel like getting into that.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: starLisa, out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Karaites?
Good question, I'm curious what she has to say. I would assume as long as the Kairites study the torah and follow all of its laws she would have no problem with them.
Nope. In fact, since the Karaites don't follow the proper rules regarding divorce, the whole kit and kaboodle of them probably have a legal presumption of being unmarriable. Unless there's some loophole that I don't know about.
They don't keep the law, Stephan. The law isn't just the surface stuff you'd get from reading the Pentateuch. "Don't cook a kid in its mother's milk" never meant just that. "An eye for an eye" never meant literal eye-for-eye retribution.
The written Torah is not the source of Torah law.
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Cool. Thanks.
I'm curious, there's a list of things taken by Babylon from the temple at the end of 2 Kings. It doesn't list the ark of the covenant. Any tradition that says it was actually still in the temple at the time of the exile of Judah? If so, was it taken into Babylon? Hidden? Destroyed?
It's in Jerusalem. Josiah hid it in a chamber under the Temple Mount.
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quote: If we weren't Orthodox, you might have a point.
when you say "we" you mean you and your partner, don't you? and how do other orthodox take this?
Depends on who. We have a lot of frum friends (frum means religious/Orthodox, for those who don't know. It's easier to type, and it's what I would say if I was talking, so I'm going to use that), and there are even more frum Jews who snub us. What's your point?
quote:Originally posted by rajel_lebeina:
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Whatever. Now explain how Amram married his aunt. The fact is, midrashim are midrashim. We don't take them literally. Og didn't necessarily survive the Flood by hanging onto the side of the Ark. The Midrash Says is not a history book.
My Rabbi says almost the same. But he says "The Tora is not a history book"
Right. Which doesn't mean that it's not accurate.
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posted
I don't know how to do the quote thing, but I went to the grocery stores because I am eating in the house of someone who does believe. Actually, I am eating in the house of someone who used to believe, doesn't anymore, but keeps her kitchen to a high standard because she has family members who do.
And yes, I have a very thorough Jewish education, I know where all of the laws come from (flashbacks to some really painful classes).
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: I don't know how to do the quote thing, but I went to the grocery stores because I am eating in the house of someone who does believe.
Very cool.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: Actually, I am eating in the house of someone who used to believe, doesn't anymore, but keeps her kitchen to a high standard because she has family members who do.
That's nice of her.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: And yes, I have a very thorough Jewish education, I know where all of the laws come from (flashbacks to some really painful classes).
<wince> I'm sorry you had a bad experience.
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posted
star Lisa, I just wanted to let you know that I've read this thread with fascination and gained a great deal of respect for you. I appreciate everything you've shared with us. Thank you.
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posted
I too am reading this thread with fascination because what little I know of Orthodox Judism came from reading Potok books. It is a contrast to my own believes, but incredibly fascinating and I'd like to learn more....
You do not update your blog enough....
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posted
I didn't mean to impy that I had a nad experience overall. ust one horrible ninth grade class on kashrus taught by a rabbi that really hated us all, I think. I remember a huge fight about why chicken couldn't be eaten with milk (which was permissable until the middle ages or so).
It's some of the "quirkier" kashrus laws that I find a little arbitrary and silly (especially when there are many accepted opinions)m not halakha overall. Just wanted to clarify.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: I didn't mean to impy that I had a nad experience overall. ust one horrible ninth grade class on kashrus taught by a rabbi that really hated us all, I think. I remember a huge fight about why chicken couldn't be eaten with milk (which was permissable until the middle ages or so).
Mishnaic times, actually. I always think it's funny when I hear people saying, "But chickens don't have milk, so it doesn't make any sense." The fact is, venison was included at the same time as chicken, and deer are definitely mammals. So it's not an issue of milk or no milk.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: It's some of the "quirkier" kashrus laws that I find a little arbitrary and silly (especially when there are many accepted opinions)m not halakha overall. Just wanted to clarify.
quote:Originally posted by Kayla: star Lisa, I just wanted to let you know that I've read this thread with fascination and gained a great deal of respect for you. I appreciate everything you've shared with us. Thank you.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I too am reading this thread with fascination because what little I know of Orthodox Judism came from reading Potok books.
Yeah, you have to be careful there. Chaim Potok was a Conservative rabbi. As such, his picture of Orthodox Judaism is seen through a lens of rejection of Orthodox Judaism.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: It is a contrast to my own believes, but incredibly fascinating and I'd like to learn more....
Anything in particular? I'm not shy. <grin>
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: You do not update your blog enough....
Tell me about it. I really should. I have three blogs, a personal website, and a website for a group that I run. All five are majorly out of date and need to be updated. Who knows when I'll find the time.
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posted
I update my secret journal about 80 times a day, my public one, not as much.
What is the difference between Conservative Judism and Orthodox? I've read about 4 books by him and they were all very interesting.
My own beliefs are a bit hard to explain. There's a mixture of mysticism, a touch of paganism and some other stuff I'm not exactly sure of. And maybe some quantum physics though I don't know enough about quantum physics. I grew up Seventh Day Adventist so we were not allowed to eat pork or shrimp and sabbath started on Friday night and ended on Saturday night but now I have a strange resistance to organized religion.
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posted
Indeed. The Orthodox are more strict in their observance in general. In their synagogue services they have a strict separation not only in the responsiblities and roles of men and women, but a physical separation as well. Women sit on one side (or perhaps up in the balcony), while men sit on the other. They are separated by a barrier, so that one side can not see the other.
In Conservative synagogues, families sit together, and women have assumed a more egalitarian role. While the Conservative movement "party line" is that the commandments apply to all Jews, in practice Conservative Jews tend to be more lax in keeping the Sabbath, keeping the rules of Kashrus, and the rules of family purity, of modesty, three times daily prayer, wearing of the kippah and tsitsit, oh, just about all of it.
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posted
But it's all a bit of a spectrum. While they are separate movements, they aren't separate in the same way that say Catholics and Protestants are. And people often move between them, generally in that young adult "discovering themselves" phase of life.
To give an example, most Orthodox Jews won't eat any non-kosher food. This basically rules out going to any restaurants, except for in areas where there is enough of a critical mass to have kosher restaraurants. Many Conservative Jews will keep their homes kosher, but will eat "kosher-style" out (no milk with meat, no pork or shellfish, etc). It is not uncommon to hear, "I keep a kosher home but eat dairy out."
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posted
Not uncommon at all. I've lived in both branches. I grew up in a Conservative home that followed some of the traditions, but certainly wasn't all that strict or literal about it. As I became an adult though, I became more observant in my practice, eventually leaving our Conservative synagogue for an Orthodox one.
We have a name for Jews who have decided that they want to increase their observance and follow more of the commandments -- Baalei Teshuvah -- Masters of Returning. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that it parallels somewhat the Born Again experience.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: What is the difference between Conservative Judaism and Orthodox?
In a nutshell, Conservative Judaism is more liberal in practice, and Orthodox is more conservative.
Does that clear anything up?
I would disagree with that. The same distinction could be made between "charedi" (what the media calls "ultra-orthodox") and "modern orthodox."
Most people I know make point to another (crucial) difference, from whence all the other differences spring. Orthodox Jews believe that the Torah was given by God to Moshe (Moses). Official Conservative doctrine is that the Torah is divinely inspired, but meant to be interpreted by people.
Very different attitudes, even in those cases that the actual practice may not differ much.
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quote:To give an example, most Orthodox Jews won't eat any non-kosher food. This basically rules out going to any restaurants, except for in areas where there is enough of a critical mass to have kosher restaurants.
That's rather misleading. In point of fact, it actually means that Orthodox Jews tend to live in coherent communities, while Conservative do not. Which, arguably, is one of the points of keeping kosher.
quote:Baalei Teshuvah -- Masters of Returning.
A better translation might be "those who have returned."
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quote:Which, arguably, is one of the points of keeping kosher.
You know, I lived in NYC for 10 years, and Florida for 10 years, so I've seen quite a few coherent Jewish communities, and this never occurred to me. But it makes perfect sense.
posted
Wow, I have to say I've never been this focused on a single thread before. I didn't realize there were so many fellow Jews on these forums.
While I agree/disagree with more than a few statements made, this thread has shown to me, that debate and discourse can be civil, synergistic, and enlightening, instead of degrading into very hurtful and adverserial boxing matches.
I really admire everybody for stepping up and putting their stuff out on the table for everyone to see. That's not easy for me to do (see how I'm coming in at the "end" here?). With the variety of views from different Judaic...divisions(right word?), it has helped me to clarify where my lines are drawn.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: What is the difference between Conservative Judism and Orthodox?
In a nutshell, Conservative Judaism is more liberal in practice, and Orthodox is more conservative.
With all due respect, Esther, I'm not sure that's so accurate. Or rather, it is one facet of the difference, but it's by far the more minor one.
Even the very few Conservative Jews who are above averagely observant for Conservative still have the major problem that their movement rejects rabbinic authority, and whatever Jewish law they do follow is arrived at incorrectly.
Sure, in practice, this often makes little difference. But it's the most fundamental difference of them all, because all of the other differences stem from it.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: But it's all a bit of a spectrum. While they are separate movements, they aren't separate in the same way that say Catholics and Protestants are.
I think they're actually much more different than Catholics and Protestants.
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: To give an example, most Orthodox Jews won't eat any non-kosher food.
Most?
quote:Originally posted by Minerva: This basically rules out going to any restaurants, except for in areas where there is enough of a critical mass to have kosher restaraurants. Many Conservative Jews will keep their homes kosher, but will eat "kosher-style" out (no milk with meat, no pork or shellfish, etc). It is not uncommon to hear, "I keep a kosher home but eat dairy out."
Which is symptomatic of the entire decision-making process.
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posted
A few points, which all avoid Lisa's dogmatic language that is not really viewed as true by most Jews.
1) Many conservative jews are more observant then many orthodox jews. There's a growing segment of orthodox judaism (still small, but growing) that, at least to me, is somewhat baffling, but they are the "non-observant orthodox" jews.
2) Its pretty hard to have a "very small" segment of a group that is "above average."
3) Lisa is badly mistaken in asserting that conservative jews do not accept rabbinic law. This is an out and out falsehood. I've called lisa on this before, and I expect other jews here have as well.
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posted
I didn't say impossible. I said hard. You'd basically have to have 2 clumps of people... one at the "maximum" observance, and one at the minimum, in order to achieve a very small group of the population being above average. When talking about something that is a sliding scale like observancy, this is almost impossible to achieve, and you more often see a gaussian distribution, which is symetric
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quote:To give an example, most Orthodox Jews won't eat any non-kosher food. This basically rules out going to any restaurants, except for in areas where there is enough of a critical mass to have kosher restaurants.
That's rather misleading. In point of fact, it actually means that Orthodox Jews tend to live in coherent communities, while Conservative do not. Which, arguably, is one of the points of keeping kosher.
In what way is this misleading?
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posted
Well, I understood about the average thing from Statistics class. But I was thinking of a subset of the subset as being the "very small segment".
Like the whole group is all Conservative and Orthodox Jews.
And the subset is Conservative Jews.
And the "very small segment" is subset of those Conservative Jews who are above average in observance for the whole group.
But that was just the way that I was reading it. Good chance I'm completely wrong!
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With the variety of views from different Judaic...divisions(right word?), it has helped me to clarify where my lines are drawn.
