Delenn (Babylon 5) Buffy Willow Veronica Mars Abbey Bartlet (The West Wing) Tamora Pierce is a very popular YA writer who only writes strong female characters. Phedre in the Kushiel's Legacy series
And these are just in the fandoms that I'm currently obsessed with
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Captain Janeway is clearly modeled after Odyseuss, the great warrior adventurer, I'd say she's pretty convincing as a captain, no?
No, I found the Janeway character to be completely uninspiring and barely believable. I think the failure of her character is the primary reason the Voyager was far less successful than either TNG or DS9.
Agreed.
Well guys, I think there your problem is with the concept of the show. No captain in her right mind would persevere in the face of all the obstacles voyager faces, and waste SO MANY chances on the road home. Yet this is a conept issue, since the show has to take us through an adventure EVERY week. Picard would have become just as hackneyed if he hadn't been refreshed by solid moral victories at least every 3 episodes. Remember episode 1 of voyager? Janeway was much more captainic at the beginning, but things did devolve as the show jumped the shark after season 3.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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The problem isn't a lack of strong female characters, it's a lack of powerful leader female characters. By powerful, I mean having power or authority over others. While Buffy, Willow, and Veronica are strong women, they are not power brokers. I don't watch West Wing so I can't comment on Abbey. While Delenn of Babylon five is a power broker on her own planet, her role on Babylon Five (and thus her primary role in the show) is as an ambasador. As such she does not have authority over the other lead characters in the show.
If you look at the women in fiction who are power brokers, who have the authority to command other people and the power to make far reaching decisions, very very few if any of them are sympathetic characters. We seem to be far more comfortable with the wicked witch.
Orincoro, I don't think the problem with Voyager was the show concept.
Picard started out as a very distant, rather aloof somewhat unsympathetic captain, but as the show progressed and his character developed both the members of his crew and the audience developed a deep loyalty to him. In the final episode, it was clear why the members of his crew were willing to take such great risks for him.
Janeway was never able to inspire that kind of loyalty. Her crew followed her through some very unpopular decisions, but as an audience member I could never really understand why. The material was there, but Janeway just never filled the shoes. If Janeway had been assymilated by the Borg, who would have shed any tears?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Star Trek has always tried to be progressive. Back in the Original series, you had as the elite bridge crew Sulu (Japanese/Asian, despite WWII with Japan, the recently ended Korean war, and Vietnam), Chekov (Russian, despite Cold War & Communist threat), Uhura (black female while MLK championed human rights), and Spock (a freakin' alien). For the time, with all the prejudices in existance, the show was remarkable. Of course, one could be cynical and say, "Hey, the white male farmboy from the Iowa was still the boss" but really the show was amazing for the time.
I think mph's question it just comes down to the usual stereotypes. In the Star Trek universe, the admirals are the desk bound administrators that Kirk/Picard so doesn't want to become. The captains are the soliders, explorers, and adventurers. It's easier for people to envision a female manager than a female scrapping it out with a Klingon for a dropped phasor.
On the other hand, has anyone noticed a plethora of movies lately with a female warrior as lead? Ultraviolet, Serenity, V for Vendetta, Electra, etc. The only qualification is she has to look good in latex, leather, or spandex. No guy out there wants to see someone who looks like the real Mulan cast as the female warrior type.
Edit: After reading my post, I have concluded that it is time to go home since it makes no sense. I will leave it though, just for kicks.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
What about Elizabeth Weir on Stargate: Atlantis? She's running Atlantis, and she's convincing enough as a leader that I'm not surprised when people follow her orders.
The main character in Wyrms could be argued to be a powerful woman, though if I recall correctly, her family had been demoted to advisors rather than rulers.
Tenar from the Earthsea stories Cersei from A Song of Ice and Fire
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I haven't watched Stargate Atlantis more than once (I don't get Sci Fi channel).
The character in Wyrms is a very strong woman who theoretical holds a line of power, but with in the story she is not a power broker.
I haven't seen any of the recent women warrior movies. The current world situation has dulled my enjoyment of them. Women warriors have been around for at least a couple of decades but they largely seem to be loan warriors, not commanders of men. I can't think of a woman who played the kind of leader who men will willing follow to their deaths.
(I mean aside from the Helen of Troy type in which the woman is really worshipped idol and not revered leader.)
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Well, yes. Sorry, I guess I missed the fact that we're discussing good powerful women. Oops.
What about Galadriel? She wasn't a leader when the elves left Aman for Middle Earth in the First Age, but she certainly is the ruler of Lothlorien by the time the Fellowship meets her. And she's arguably the most powerful elf in Middle Earth at the time.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Galadriel is an interesting case because she is very clearly powerful and certainly aligned with good. At times however, she seems more mysterious than good. She is viewed as an elf witch. Its also implied that if she were allowed enough power she would become evil.
Still, Galadriel isn't really a sympathetic character. Shes not someone people are likely to look to as a role model or someone that you like to go on vacation with.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Galadriel is very compassionate to people who she deems worthy of it. Such as Frodo, and other members of the Fellowship, even Gimli at a time when the relations between Elves and Dwarves was not so good. Lorien's borders, just like any other Elven borders, are heavily guarded, and intruders are not suffered to pass, regardless.
Besides, everyone who called her an Elf Witch was from a race that held some sort of fear of Elves. Men fear them inherently, but are also bitter towards them, so of course they are going to speak ill of them. And from what I can tell of the One Ring, ANYONE who claimed it for themselves would be corrupted towards evil.
And I'd LOVE to go on vacation with Galadriel.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Galadriel is an interesting case because she is very clearly powerful and certainly aligned with good. At times however, she seems more mysterious than good. She is viewed as an elf witch. Its also implied that if she were allowed enough power she would become evil.
Still, Galadriel isn't really a sympathetic character. Shes not someone people are likely to look to as a role model or someone that you like to go on vacation with.
What about Eowyn? She displays courage, strength, and loyalty that rivals that of any male character. Only a handful of men in Middle-earth would have dared stand toe-to-toe with the Witch King, and (if the prophecy was true) none would have been as effective against him. Even Gandalf didn't take the Witch King lightly.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
LOTR is full of strong women. Luthien, Melian, Arwen, Finduilas, most of the mothers of the Edain from the First Age. The list goes on. I haven't read the Sil in awhile so I can't remember a lot of the Elven and names of the Edain, but there's a bunch.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:What about Eowyn? She displays courage, strength, and loyalty that rivals that of any male character.
Excellent point. And as she does it, it's mentioned that she's explicitly rebelling against her sex roles. Remember?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Future Janeway was assimilated with the virus that destroyed the Borg Queen and her lair, or whatever you call it. But actual Janeway escaped back to the Alpha Quadrant, and I don't believe she was ever assimilated in any continuous story line, maybe in an alternate reality or something.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Um... She gave up her Elven birthright to be a trophy wife. *shrug*.
You see, I think what makes Eowyn special is that unlike most of Tolkien's "strong" female charcters, she didn't do it all just to live happily ever after with her dream guy. Sure she was throwing herself at Aragorn, but he wasn't the reason why she went into battle. She just wanted to protect the people she cared about, especially Theoden who was like a father to her. And of course, in the end, she ends up with someone other than Aragorn.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Well, she DID give up immortality for him, more of less sacrificing herself for love. I guess that might not make her a strong woman in some people's eyes, but it makes her stronger than many in mine.
Same story with Finduilas really, she sacrificed her life to marry Denethor, where she suffered greatly as his wife, and died from that misery. Give them some credit, it would have been very easy for Arwen to head to Valinor, and few would have faulted her for it. Finduilas could have left Denethor to go back to Dol Amroth, but stayed out of duty.
Eowyn gets extra points, but I attribute much of it to her upbringing. She was born into a warlike, almost feudal society. She was the daughter of the First Marshall of the Riddermark, sister to Eomer, Third Marshall of the Riddermark, and cousin to Theodred, who I believe was also the First Marshall of the Ridderkark (might have been Second). She was surrounded by strong male, military characters. It was much easier for her to want to ride to war with her brother and more or less adoptive father than most other female characters in Tolkien lore.
Quite frankly I'd say Luthien was more brave than Eowyn. She faced off against both Morgoth and Sauron, both in person, and died as a result (later returning to live as a human).
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Loathesome derailers! This is a Star Trek thread, not a Tolkien thread! There are fine degrees of geekdom here that allow me to appreciate discussions of the former but yawn through discussions of the latter.
So...
Why do all the Romulans have the same haircut?
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:What, so now it's not acceptable for a television show to depict strong, genderless individuals?
There is a TNG episode where they encounter a species which has no gender... except for a few of the members of the species do have gender and, if discovered, they are tried and forced to undergo brainwashing therapy.
quote:Why do all the Romulans have the same haircut?
Okay, Luthien gets bonus points for facing Sauron and Morgoth, but she still only did it for her man. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or that it detracts from her strength, but I thought that the modern image of a strong woman is one who is independent and doesn't need a man to be happy. I'm just saying that Eowyn is special because it wan't all about winning a husband for her, and facing the Witch King is almost up there with facing the Dark Lords. Even Gandalf feared him.
posted
I think even with your qualifications, my two examples still hold.
****Minor Spoilers for Hyperion and A Song of Ice and Fire****
Dany Targaryen is a very powerful young woman, who is gaining power with every page of ASOIAF. At the current time she is ruler of a large city, with thousands upon thousands of followers. Plus, she's a very sympathetic character, one of the two heroes of the books (or as close to it as any character in the series).
And Aenea gains a lot of power over the course of Endymion and Rise of Endymion. Its hard to go into specifics on the circumstances of this without giving away serious spoilers though. She is also a very sympathetic character, with thousands of followers and considerable power.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: One last Tolkien comment:
Okay, Luthien gets bonus points for facing Sauron and Morgoth, but she still only did it for her man. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or that it detracts from her strength, but I thought that the modern image of a strong woman is one who is independent and doesn't need a man to be happy. I'm just saying that Eowyn is special because it wan't all about winning a husband for her, and facing the Witch King is almost up there with facing the Dark Lords. Even Gandalf feared him.
I see what you're saying, and I agree that Eowyn was a strong woman, but the fact is, she threw herself at Aragorn's feet more or less before riding off to war. The only reason she even rode to war with Theoden was because Aragorn rejected her out of his love for Arwen. And for anyone reading this, you should either be sure to read the Return of the King, or watch the ROTK cartoon, and not go by the Eowyn in the movies. I hated Eowyn in the P. Jackson movies, and felt a lot of it was a misportrayal of her real character.
Just because she earned her glory AFTER she was rejected by a man, as opposed to Luthien who earned hers in order to win her father's approval makes little difference to me. Besides, Luthien and Beren were in love, and accepted each other, the only person they had to win the approval of was her father. And considering Sauron was the only person the Witch King was actually afraid of, and that Morgoth was HIS boss, I'd say the Witch King ranks way below them on the scary as all hell scale.
Gandalf feared the Witch King, and Gandalf was one of the Maiar, which made him inherently more powerful than Luthien and Beren. Thus the danger scale of someone less powerful than Gandalf and more powerful than the WK I'd say makes it way more dangerous for Luthien than Eowyn.
Then again it's apples and oranges really when comparing the end of the Third Age to the end of the First Age. So far as my memory serves, I'd say Eowyn probably wins as the bravest woman of the Third Age. But she'd be ill equipped to deal with the dangers of the First or Second Ages.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I read excessive amounts of Tolkien in my free time
I just got finished with the first five of the Histories of Middle Earth that Chris Tolkien put together. And I've read the Unfinished Tales, and plan to read the Tolkien Letters soon.
quote:Originally posted by pH: Speaking of the woman-woman love, what was the hullabaloo about Jadzia kissing that woman who was her lover when she was Curzon? Was it really the first same-sex dealie on primetime? I doubt it...but I remember reading about it somewhere.
-pH
Here's the list (to my knowledge) of Star-Trek firsties.
-First black/white kiss between Kirk and Uhura (episode title "Plato's Stepchildren." Apparently they were both under the influence of some mind-altering something or other) -First girl-girl on-air kiss on network TV (as opposed to cable tv) in a DS9 episode between Jadzia and another trill host. Episode title was "Rejoined," aired 10/28/95. A later episode features the alternate reality Kira kissing Ezri Dax, but at this point, it's just old hat. Besides, the alternate universe Kira slept with ANYONE, male or female.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I liked her better than the regular Kira. The regular Kira was very uptight. Alternate Kira was a girl who knew how to enjoy herself.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: -First girl-girl on-air kiss on network TV (as opposed to cable tv) in a DS9 episode between Jadzia and another trill host. Episode title was "Rejoined," aired 10/28/95.
I think both L.A. Law and Roseanne had same-sex kisses predating that.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: -First black/white kiss between Kirk and Uhura (episode title "Plato's Stepchildren." Apparently they were both under the influence of some mind-altering something or other)
bzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZ! I'm sorry, that is incorrect.
Their minds were their own. It was their bodies that were being controlled by the Platonians.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: And considering Sauron was the only person the Witch King was actually afraid of, and that Morgoth was HIS boss, I'd say the Witch King ranks way below them on the scary as all hell scale.
Gandalf feared the Witch King, and Gandalf was one of the Maiar, which made him inherently more powerful than Luthien and Beren. Thus the danger scale of someone less powerful than Gandalf and more powerful than the WK I'd say makes it way more dangerous for Luthien than Eowyn.
[/QB]
Okay, I can agree with what you're saying about Luthien, but let's not split hairs about who was in greater danger. The fact is that Morgoth, Sauron, and the Witch King are all so powerful compared to a mortal or an elf that it's like debating whether you'd rather fight Superman or the Incredible Hulk. For a mere human there's really no difference since you're not in the same league as either. It's not like either Luthien or Ewoyn survived survived their situations due to might. It was more a matter of fate and good luck.
And that's the last I'll say about Tolkien since this is supposed to be a Star Trek thread.
posted
In Star Wars a woman was leader of the rebellion. Mon Mothma. For all you non star wars freaks out there thats the woman in return of a Jedi who says "Many Bothans sacraficed there lives to bring you this information."
And Princess Leia had more political power than any other main character in the trilogy.
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:n Star Wars a woman was leader of the rebellion. Mon Mothma. For all you non star wars freaks out there thats the woman in return of a Jedi who says "Many Bothans sacraficed there lives to bring you this information."
They say that she was a leader, but all we ever see her do is give a speach.
Also, how much political power do we ever see Leia use?
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
And despite Leia's political station and tough-chick attitude, she was for the most part a classic damsel in distress.
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