posted
If you're only going from the movies, I might be willing to excuse that, but if you read all the EU stuff, that doesn't even come close to the truth.
Mon Mothma did a lot to bring the Rebellion into being and to keep it together. Leia wasn't always a fighter, though she was very capable in combat, but she was by far the most politically powerful force in all of Star Wars from the destruction of the Death Star on.
The classic damsel in distress sits in a tower screaming her head off. Leia was captured, saw her homeworld destroyed, was then brutally tortured by Darth Vader before being sentenced to death. Snow White never went through that.
She was a jungle fighter on Endor, and a leader and figther at Hoth, to say nothing of her successes on other planets. Besides, she was the one who went undercover to rescue Han from Jabba, so I guess that makes Han the damsel in distress.
What about Mara Jade? More than Mon Mothma I'd say she's probably the strongest woman (tied with Leia, or second to Leia) in Star Wars lore. She fought off the specter of the Emperor's Death and fought his will, then over the course of the next decade helped (indirectly) the New Republic defeat the Empire.
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posted
Depends on which Padme you mean. Padme from Episode I was bitchin. She was in firefights, and storming the castle and all that. I'd say as a whole she was the rebel and fighter that the mother of Leia probably should have been.
But they damselized her in the second and third movies pretty brutally. She was ridiculous in the third movie, in what I thought was the biggest waste of character that film had.
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posted
And it kind of bothers me MORE for Padme to be like that than it would have bothered me if women from the original trilogy had been like that.
I mean, seriously Lucas. The strongest female character in the prequels was probably that bounty hunter chick that Jango Fett hired and subsequently killed before she could give him up to the Jedi.
posted
If you want to bring the EU into this, there's Jaina Solo, the so-called "sword of the Jedi". Personally, I dislike her but I suppose she qualifies as a strong woman. Before she was out of her teens she was a jedi knight and an ace fighter pilot.
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posted
Bleh. Jaina Solo really bothers me. I'm loathe to count the NJO as part of the EU, as far as I'm concerned, it only counts up to the Hand of Thrawn Duology.
And it IS possible to carry on a conversation without it turning into a Bash Lucasfest. Or at least, outside of Hatrack it is.
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posted
No. I loved the EU but luckily got out before NJO. Never read a single one and never want to. The Timothy Zahn books were the best. Both the trilogy and the hand of Thrawn duo. Leia is awesome in the trilogy and so is Mara Jade
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posted
Padme bashing is totally okay by me pH, have at it. Lucas bashing gets on my nerves, and really makes no sense half the time. I don't go into P. Jackson bashing and Whedon bashing all the time, I don't see the necessity to bash Lucas, without whom, neither Whedon nor Jackson would probably have made either of their creations. At least respect what the man did right.
Penguin -
Lucky you .
There was SOME good stuff in the NJO. The Zahn, Stackpole and Allston books were really good. And Greg Keyes wasn't bad either. I liked the book with the battle at Tarkin's Fang (Ebaq 9 I think it was). And there was some cool stuff with the Jedi and the fighter squadrons. But 70% of it was extremely screwed up and boring.
I've yet to read the Outbound Flight book, but I think that could also be great. Other than that I dislike the pre-New Hope books too.
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posted
Again, you loathsome derailers, Star Wars does not equal Star Trek.
Star Wars is some overblown, over budgeted Lucas fever dream of a series.
Star Trek is chintzy camp. There is no equating the two. I could blather on ad nauseum about Star Trek trivia with the rest of the geeks, but I found Star Wars to be as unwatchable as Lord of the Rings.
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posted
I was thinking last night -- if something happens off-screen, does it really happen?
I came to the conclusion that the answer is far closer to "no" than it is to "yes".
Which was Leiah; powerful leader in the Rebel Alliance or damsel in distress? Her role in the movie was damsel, so for the purposes of the story, that's what she is.
What are those ST:TNG female admirals; strong, motivated women near the top of the pyramid in a military organization or beurecratic foils for Picard to fight against? In the shows, their role was far more often the second than the first.
Similarly (is that even a word?), you can't build sympathy for a character by telling the audience what great things he's done off-camera. As far as the audience is concerned, if they didn't see it it didn't happen.
There are many stories where a main sympathetic character has done horrible, vile things, that if we saw, we couldn't bring ourselves to forgive. So the storytellers keep it off "screen" and have it merely part of the character's background.
BTW, let me point out that the person that started this thread has participated in more than one derailing of this thread and apparently doesn't mind.
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Again, you loathsome derailers, Star Wars does not equal Star Trek.
Star Wars is some overblown, over budgeted Lucas fever dream of a series.
Star Trek is chintzy camp. There is no equating the two. I could blather on ad nauseum about Star Trek trivia with the rest of the geeks, but I found Star Wars to be as unwatchable as Lord of the Rings.
Overbudgeted? Have you not seen the original trilogy? Star Wars: A New Hope cost slightly more than an episode of Friends cost in it's final season. It was a low budget flick, you could have made more than 30 Star Wars movies in the 70's for what it cost Peter Jackson to make King Kong. And what was wrong with LOTR?
And Tom -
If only it were possible. He's worth three billion. Musta done something right.
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posted
With respect....could someone tell me what was wrong with the NJO series? I enjoyed it immensely. There were a couple of books that felt more like kiddie lit, and I was disappointed how they backed down from the philosophical changes in the end, but it was a fun ride, at least.
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quote:Originally posted by Mabus: With respect....could someone tell me what was wrong with the NJO series? I enjoyed it immensely. There were a couple of books that felt more like kiddie lit, and I was disappointed how they backed down from the philosophical changes in the end, but it was a fun ride, at least.
Agreed. What I liked about the series is that they put you on edge at the beginning. ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE was up for grabs when it came to death because of the events of the first book in the series.
However, some books were a complete waste of time where nothing important happened.
As you say, though, Good ride.
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posted
In regards to the NJO series I heard down the grapevine that a lot of major characters got axed and that just makes me sad. More realistic but still sad.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Similarly (is that even a word?)
I do believe that it is.
quote:BTW, let me point out that the person that started this thread has participated in more than one derailing of this thread and apparently doesn't mind.
Yeah, I know. My tongue was in my cheek. I was just being a brat.
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quote:Originally posted by Mabus: With respect....could someone tell me what was wrong with the NJO series? I enjoyed it immensely. There were a couple of books that felt more like kiddie lit, and I was disappointed how they backed down from the philosophical changes in the end, but it was a fun ride, at least.
I liked the NJO too, but I understand why some SW fans couldn't put up with it. It's very different. It's darker (heros die), the Vong are an unusual enemy with unusual "tech" (for Star Wars, at least), a lot of the focus is taken away from the movie characters in favour of the next generation. It just wasn't some people's cup of tea. On the other hand, a lot of fans loved it. In fact, the haters are probably just a vocal minority considering that the series sold pretty well as I understand it and Del Rey seems to be proud of it. I'm looking forward to May when the "Legacy of the Force" series begins. It's going to be 9 books released over 3 years, with 1 hardcover per year. In other words, a similar format to the NJO, but shorter. 19 books was really more than was needed anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: But they damselized her in the second and third movies pretty brutally. She was ridiculous in the third movie, in what I thought was the biggest waste of character that film had.
That's saying ALOT isn't it.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Loathesome derailers! This is a Star Trek thread, not a Tolkien thread! There are fine degrees of geekdom here that allow me to appreciate discussions of the former but yawn through discussions of the latter.
This whole diversion started because I pointed out that while StarTrek has few if any women who are sympathetic but powerful leaders, the same can be said for virtually all of western fiction. This then lead to discussion of whether female characters in Tolkien, Star Wars, etc filled that bill. Is that derailment or legitimate evolution of the original topic.
I will add, that none of the characters anyone has named yet really fill that bill in my eyes. There are strong women who are sympathetic characters, and there are powerful women leaders who are "Good Guys". But I still haven't found a powerful woman in fiction who is genuinely a sympathetic character.
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posted
What sort of male character would you use an example Rabbit?
As for the NJO -
I thought a lot of it was useless. Some of them were fantastic books though, and I loved the relationship between Droma and Han, but I really didn't like how long it took the Solo family to get themselves back together. I enjoyed much of the series, but I think it dragged heavily in some areas, and they could have cut quite a bit of the bad books out and I could have saved six bucks a book. I also really liked Droma explaining the history of the Sabacc cards, which I firmly believe will be the next Texas Hold 'Em once they get the technology to make it real. I think they spent way too much time beating the crap out of the New Republic, and quite frankly I thought it was a little silly when Cal Omas starting talking about new names for the new government and basically reformed it into a galactic version of the US Government.
I liked it when it first started out and they were testing new tactics against the Vong, and the Jedi were on the front lines, but then it dragged like crazy until the New Republic FINALLY starting fighting back, and then it was mostly good until the end. I'm curious as to how it will play out in the new continuations, but whether or not I read much of it will depend on how far "out there" it starts to get, and who the writers are.
Tom -
Licensing alone can't make you wealthy, you have to have something to own the rights to, and that thing is Star Wars, which he created and made popular. Can't really deny that fact. Attack the prequels all you want, everyone, go for it. But at least recognize what he did right, recognize how he changed the face of the movie industry, and continues to do so.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: As for the NJO -
I thought a lot of it was useless. Some of them were fantastic books though
Yeah, the problem with the NJO is that it was too long. Even though I found the series as a whole to be pretty good, they really could have trimmed the fat and made it even better. I think that's why the Legacy of the Force is only 9 books.
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posted
Probably a smart move. When you consider that from the first post ROTJ book to the Thrawn Duology was what, maybe 50 books? And that covered some fifteen years. The NJO was something like 30 books, and it only covered a couple years. Way too much material for so short a time span.
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quote:I will add, that none of the characters anyone has named yet really fill that bill in my eyes. There are strong women who are sympathetic characters, and there are powerful women leaders who are "Good Guys". But I still haven't found a powerful woman in fiction who is genuinely a sympathetic character.
You've still not addressed my two examples. Are you not familiar with them? If you are, could you explain why they are not both powerful and sympathetic?
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quote:Originally posted by pH: Crazy talk? No! Padme sucks!
Anakin sucks too, until the third movie, when he magically becomes hot and troubled and gets that sweet bod.
Jango Fett also sucks.
-pH
Away from me vile creature! Padme was mega hot in the second movie, the third movie was a sham, they greased anakin up with cocoa butter. Its all a fraud.
How can say such hurtful things about Jango? How?
:::solitary tear:::
Species 8472 is dumping you. They told me to pass it on.
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posted
BTW, I accidentally swapped "yes" and "no" in my previous post. I guess it didn't make much sense with those wrong.
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I liked the Boba Fett story I'd read in the EU books. The whole clone thing I found a little silly.
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posted
I still love how in the EU bobba was all like "being dropped into the belly of the sarlac can not defeat me!" and got out again. It was reverse hero immortality. Except Bobba Fett was more neutral, he wasnt actually a bad guy he was just doing his job.
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And it would've been even sexier without that Jango moron. And Padme wasn't all that hot in Episode II; she just had a nice stomach which was exposed when her white outfit was accidentally torn in a very fashionable manner.
quote:Originally posted by pH: And Padme wasn't all that hot in Episode II; she just had a nice stomach which was exposed when her white outfit was accidentally torn in a very fashionable manner.
-pH
What isn't sexy about that???? It just kept ripping!!! Now it was no Princess leah in the gold bikini....
And about that, Boba Fett is a CLONE of Jango, they look EXACTLY the SAME!!!
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