posted
That sounds like the absolute best way to not help the situation at all!
It is also a not very well thought out plan. Five tons of cow manure dumped on a lawn is not something that is easily missed by potential witnesses.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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He's been on here for less than 8 hours, and he's already used some very inappropriate language. And by inappropriate i mean things that I wouldn't even say in certain company, let alone type it and leave a record of my immaturity.
He's either a bot or some pathetic teenager looking for attention.
Posts: 20 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Since the police were involved, it's entirely possible that your brother could find himself in a spot of trouble, should they identify him. Filing a false report is (typically) a misdemeanor and it can result in a whole bunch of negative official attention from police, judges, and so forth.
Sadly, your brother's mental state sounds like this would only serve to confirm his worst fears and perhaps bring out worse problems.
I don't mean to pry, but do you feel like his behavior has reached the point where the family needs to do something about it? Is he getting professional help? If he's on medication, has he been seen regularly to see that his meds are adjusted properly?
Someone earlier mentioned manic/depressive. If he truly suffers from bipolar disorder (I apologize if I've missed a discussion of this, or simply don't remember it), it can be extremely difficult to treat and keep it under control. Plus people suffering from that are notorious "self-medicators" meaning that they turn to drugs and alcohol and become even more seriously derailed.
Before he starts wracking up criminal offenses, it might be worthwhile for those who love him most to take some decisions out of his hands for a time in order to make sure he's getting the help he needs.
This sounds (at least in part) like a "cry for help"...or at least a giant red flag that something is going wrong or getting worse for him.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Can I bring up what may be an unpopular topic?
How does being bipolar lead to being so vindictive? I have very limited experience with anyone who is bipolar, but in reflecting on those experiences, I still blame the person for their horrible actions instead of their disease.
This is because not everyone who is bipolar acts like that, and because I don't understand how cycling between manic and depressive leads to maliciousness without a little push from the person inside. Is there something I don't understand? Also, do people who do terrible things while bipolar feel a need to apologize for those things when they get it under control? Why or why not?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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It might help to think of mental illness as loosely tied to the labels put on them. Every individual mind is different, and so is the expression of mental illness. There may be commonalities -- the cycling of moods in bipolar disorders is definitional, so every person who is diagnosed as "bipolar" has at least some cyclical mood swings that reach enough of an extreme (at at least one of the ends of the swing) to be a problem.
Some people have more than one problem too. Paranoid ideas mixed in with bipolar disorders aren't that uncommon.
And then you have to consider what people are like even when they're doing well. If a person comes into their bipolar disorder already having problems coping with anger, or not exactly high on the human empathy scale, or perhaps both, they can tend toward inappropriate behaviors without much of a push.
It's not just bipolar at that point, of course.
But then, I submit that it never is.
It's why there's usually value in going to a professional therapist instead of just getting the medications. They are trained to look for what else might be going on, what behaviors, ideas and situations are most problematic for a particular person.
...
Having said all that, I'll also say that trust between the patient and therapist is crucial, and that the "science" of this kind of thing is not as far along as in other areas of medicine. It ain't engineering, that's for sure.
Different therapists are better at treating different disorders as well. Someone who is really good at treating folks with bipolar disorder is likely to have gotten there by treating lots of them, studying a lot, and learning from mistakes.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Personal experiences may vary a great deal with this kind of thing, and I know a lot of people just hate the whole Psychiatric and therapeutic Psychology profession with a passion.
I've seen people helped by both meds and a good careful clinical approach.
I've seen very few people helped by meds alone (i.e. prescribed by a general practitioner with little Psych training) and very few helped by talk-therapies alone (i.e., without meds). I have also seen a few people who were not helped much by anything that the Psychiatric or Psychological professionals caring for them had to offer.
But...I've seen a lot more people who got worse without any such help, and who got MUCH worse by trying to solve the problems in other ways (including self-medicating).
So...that probably answered questions other than what you asked, but I sort of anticipated this thread taking the usual Hatrackian detour into stories of how bad Psychiatry is in general, so I figured I'd take the opportunity to get ahead of the curve.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Mania is sometimes associated with psychosis (delusions, halluciinations, paranoia), which is a break with reality. Because mania affects the frontal lobes of the brain, the normal disinhibition may be turned off. People may not remember what they have done or said later.
You might have only seen people in one part of the spectrum. There is something called Hypomania which has much less extreme symptoms and no psychosis.
Even without psychosis, it isn't uncommon for people with mania to behave in ways that are very unlike what they are in a non-manic state. For example, steroids like prednisone can bring on mania, and the gentlest Sunday School teacher can be transformed into rage.
If you have to draw it to something bad within the person, I guess none of us are without some element of a sinful nature, the Natural Man. Maybe it would make sense to you that this brings it out.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Mania and brain injury http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/17/1/122 "On the other hand, growing evidence from structural neuroimaging studies indicates that mania is associated with anatomical abnormalities of the frontal lobe and that its course was found to be independent of cognitive impairment"
The brain itself doesn't work the same with more severe forms of mania, maybe less severe too.
The brain scans of people right in full-blown, more severe mania look like the brain scans of people who have had brain injuries that make them do or say things they would not have done or said otherwise. The areas light up with use or black out in the same patterns.
All joking aside I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder about 2 months ago.
I'm only 20 but I have and continue to do things which sometimes boggle my mind when i'm in and 'up' fase. Now I imagine that this poor guy has been walking around bipolar and undiagnosed for quite some time as he's at least in his 30ies.
When you are bipolar & feeling good you tend to loose an understanding of the impact of your actions & of the actual functioning of the real world. As explored by the other forum members there may infact be some sort of reason he was able to justify his act to himself. Or perhaps he's in a down phase. If this is the case then he's feeling pretty shitty right now. It may be better to confront him 1 to 1 rather than over the phone to actually understand if he himself is suffering through something unbrearable.
Spotting bipolarity is simple; think back on what you have witnessed since growing up with him. Has he had periods of great activity, creativity, & understanding during which he has been very productive & enthusiastic? During these periods was he able to sleep? Or did he tend to devote himself to projects tirelessly? If so, then were there also times when he always seemed down, either morose or verging on sick, slow, negative, hyper-sensitive, etc...
If you can think back and realize that this is the case then something should be done in conjuction with the rest of the family asap to get him in therapy & perhaps on meds.
We bi's tend to loose it & either kill ourselves when down or commit the ultimate mistake when up.
A friend of my dad's flipped out & thought the CIA where chasing him. He disappeared for weeks & was finally picked up in Italy's Rome airport by police for lurking & shipped back to the insane asylum.
quote:I don't know how across-the-board this type of behavior is, though.
It isn't. At least, it's no more across-the-board behavior than it is for people without bipolar disorder. With mania, filters get shut off, impulsivity goes into overdrive, and thoughts that are normally fleeting and quickly chases away become actions instead. And quite often, the actions are deeply regretted once a person is stable. At times, it's almost like being possessed by an uncivilized stranger.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Dude that BS you ifnd in most bipolar books.
I love the manic states & remember exactly what I do.
My creativity is increased ten fold, as is my productivity, sensuality, outgoingness & general good vibes.
But I act like a jerk and really irk people. I've done things i'd rather never speak of again whilst manic. But I have also accomplished quite alot while manic.
Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde
The Genious/lunatic conflict within ones mind is fascinating.
quote:Originally posted by Madb: My creativity is increased ten fold, as is my productivity, sensuality, outgoingness & general good vibes.
At least, it feels that way to you. I realize you've only recently been diagnosed, and you are almost certainly in denial about the disease. But many bipolar sufferers soon discover than any "enhancements" that come with the mania aren't worth the damage they do to their relationships with other people. Finding the right combination of meds works wonders.
Then again, you may be one of those who chooses to embrace their mania. Those people tend to spend the remainder of their lives on and off meds, usually manage to destroy all friendships and family ties within about 10 years, cannot stay employed . . .
I've seen both of these scenarios play out. I sincerely hope you choose the first one.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Madb—you might want to consider that you aren't the sole authority on what the experience of having bipolar disorder is like.
Not everyone considers mania a blessing.
quote:Dude that BS you ifnd in most bipolar books.
You might want to consider that the books aren't BS.
quote:I love the manic states & remember exactly what I do.
Others do as well, but when they take a look back at those memories, they cringe in shame as they try to put back together the smashes pieces that's become their lives.
quote:My creativity is increased ten fold, as is my productivity, sensuality, outgoingness & general good vibes.
While others find that while their creativity and productivity have come to a screeching halt as their mania does everything it can to rip apart the fabric of a life.
quote:The Genious/lunatic conflict within ones mind is fascinating.
Though, it tends to be much less dangerous, though no less fascinating, when looked at from without and from a place of safety.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Robert Lowell had bipolar and went through 16 years of therapy before a simple lithium (I believe?) pill treatment balanced his moods for the rest of his life.
kq: Wow! Hopefully everything will work out well in the future.((KQ))
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
My brother is diagnosed bipolar, but that condition may be partially the result of long-term use of medication he didn't need at the time when he was a kid; his brain kind of became dependent on it. There is also a family history, my sister got manic and had a psychotic break in college. He was on a really high dose and when he graduated quit it cold-turkey. He's had rages since he went on the meds and he never really learned to control himself because in his special schools, when he would throw a chair or something the consequence was a time-out room and adjusting his meds.
Well, when he turned 18 he got in a fight and punched a guy, he says in self-defense (he also says in typical style that he was framed and only raised his arm to defend himself, did not actually punch, but that one I don't believe, and I'm not sure about the self-defense; he doesn't seem to be lying but sometimes he believes things that aren't true.) For that, he's now on probation (although I think it's over soon.)
My family is kind of at the end of our ropes with him. He's got himself kicked out or left my mom's and dad's houses-- twice each. No one else feels safe having him stay with them, either. Even his white supremacist friends whose praises he sang for the way they "stick together" don't want him any more. He moved across the country to NJ, got paranoid, moved to CT, got paranoid, moved to PA, got paranoid, moved to NY, got paranoid and came home. He's not being physically violent or threatening it right now so we can't get him placed on a psychiatric hold against his will, and he says all psychiatrists and psychologists are evil and won't even talk to them. He has brief spurts of lucidity where he says "Man, I was so manic" and "I should get me back on some lithium", but then he denies ever saying it two days later. We all love him but we don't know what to do with him; we miss the little boy he was once but can't stand to be around the man he's become.
quote:we miss the little boy he was once but can't stand to be around the man he's become.
Maybe he hasn't yet really become the man he's meant to become and there's hope for him still, though you and your family really have done all you can for him. He'll have to want the help and make the decision to take control of his illness and no one can make him do that aside from himself. It's like an addict finally choosing to overcome their addiction.
But I hope that he does choose the path of treatment, finds his stability, and you and your family can finally meet who he's meant to be. And maybe he can meet himself, as well.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I was also diagnosed manic-depressive but don't actually need medication. (I tried to tell them that for years and their response was to put me on more, so I learned to keep quiet until I was 18, when I weaned myself off.)
I know a LOT of my brother's stuff is a function of the screwed up environments he's been in, including our homes growing up. It's not all the manic-depressive stuff, some of it is learned behavior that, at some point, must have helped him to survive. But when I try to offer loving help or advice and get cussed out for my trouble, I just... I wish I could re-wind his personality sometimes, see where it went wrong, you know? See if there was something we could have changed if we'd known what would happen (not that my mom necessarily would have but that's another story.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
But no one could have known the outcome, really. Him un-learning those behaviors would need to be treated by talk therapy (as Bob had mentioned) and that can really only be successful (at least it seems in his case) when his disorder is treated with medication to stabilize him mood-wise.
I wish you all the best. You're in one really rough spot.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Not to steal this thread away from it's topic, but i've been resisting stong encouragement from my Father, Mother, Shrink and Grandparents to get on Meds. Honestly i'm terrified of the idea and I honestly don't feel I need them to keep in control of my manic & depressive states. All I need is excercise, a stable home enviornment, sleep, food and distraction.
I have never purposefully hurt anyone either friend of family while manic or depressive.
Granted; i've done some shady & altogether creepy things whilst manic & depressive, but never to anyone else.
I think you should be regularly seeing and trust both a psychatrist (to make that determination) and a therapist (to develop new, healthier behaviors).
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
You're not really comparing it with the flu, though - you're comparing it with a life where you do NOT get the disease under control.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Sometimes it can take a while to get the right medication, but believe me...it's worth it. Maybe lithium isn't for you. There are plenty of other options.
quote:Originally posted by romanylass: Kq- I'm sorry this happened.
From my understanding, there is no advantage to letting CPS in without a warrant. I wouldn't, eve at 1:30 in the morning.
I hope your brother will be willing to accept help soon.
Yeah; it was 1:30, or I probably wouldn't have let them in. But the cop stuck his foot in the door and wouldn't even let me close it to keep the cats from getting out. I was exhausted, I was intimidated, I was in my nightgown with three strange men at the door, and I didn't want to wake the neighbors. So I let them in. But they have been in once and they won't be in again.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:AT least when I don't control it I have moments of genius.
Having moments during which you feel like a genius isn't exactly the same as having moments when you are a genius. In fact, the two experiences can have opposite effects.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:But the cop stuck his foot in the door and wouldn't even let me close it to keep the cats from getting out.
Uncalled for. That's ridiculous.
But for the future, nobody has a right to intimidate you to let them in, and they have no legal right of entry without a warrant. The right response would have been: "Please remove your foot from my door. I appreciate you are here to do your job, but this is a false complaint and I will have to ask you to leave now so my children and I can get back to sleep. Please leave me some contact information so that we can get this straightened out during normal business hours. Thank you and good night."
Of course, it's really easy for me to say that, given that I was not there, and it's full daylight and I'm comfortable at my computer. I know if it happened to me the way it did you, I would have been frightened and upset too.
The good thing is that it's all over now. I hope he does get some help and you never have to go through such an awful experience again. (((kq)))
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I am so sorry this happened to you. I would seriously think long and hard about cutting off contact with the brother. I have a bipolar son and can somewhat understand the challenges with the illness. But you need to protect your kiddos. Next time he may get a buddy to call for him. I have good friends whose children were seriously messed up being taken from their home without good cause. It took so long to get them back that relationships within the family were seriously damaged. I no longer make assumptions that CPS will do what is really in the best interest of the child and will see good people and leave them alone.
Do not let them in but always be polite. If they show up again contact an attorney just in case.
I am sooooo sorry. What a scary scary thing.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Yeah, if they come back I have a response all ready. "Do you have a warrant? No? Then I will let you in when you have one. In the mean time I am going to contact my lawyer." But I am hoping they will not.
I was just so shocked (and tired) my mind went blank. You know, I had never thought about what I would say if CPS showed up with cops in the middle of the night. In the daytime, sure, but I wasn't expecting it until I started homeschooling my kids. So I didn't have a response ready in my head when they showed up.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Madb: Yes, take medication, get treatment, take control of your illness. Katharina and others have given you very good advice. It's up to you to do what you will with it. As someone who's been through the long process of stabilizing bipolar disorder, I say it's completely, entirely worth it. If you're ever interesting in a constructive conversation about it, I'm more than open to discussing the process with you. However, if you just want to act as you have been in this thread, dismissing good, solid, well-meaning advice from others with swearing and disdain, then I don't see a point in continuing to talk with you about bipolar disorder and its treatment.
These are good people. Stop spitting in their faces.
KQ: I forgot to mention that my first thought I had after I read that someone called CPS on you was, "Why would they do that? There's certainly nothing to find in her household." Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Well, simply put, I was erroneously diagnosed, when I was 12, on the basis of an adverse reaction to antidepressents that I also didn't actually need (my mom lied to the doctor to get him to give them to me. I never got to speak to him alone.) All my later doctors never believed me when I said I'd do better without them, and refused to even try taking me off. When I was 18 I tapered myself off, AMA, and have been doing so much better ever since. I don't get manic any more. I no longer get suicidal or go into rages so bad that I have to shut myself in my room and scream or want to cut myself. That, right there, should tell you something.
And between you, me, and the rest of the forum, I'm not sure I believe a word MadB says in this thread, given his other posts.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I wouldn't either, little bastard goes around spitting in peoples faces all day.
Look; i'm sorry to have offended you, although I do admit i'm rather confused. I, myself, have found nothing I have said thus far offending or insulting. Perhaps if you could help me conform to the rules of this e-community rather than calling me a lier and a child I may be able to turn some frowns upside down.
posted
Polite. Respectful. Refraining from profanity or crude/rude figures of speech. Giving other posters the benefit of the doubt. Recognising that they may have experiences you don't know of. Even when you disagree, listening. Proper spelling and grammar, or your best shot at it (use of spell check recommended).
Hatrack isn't like most other forums. There's a largely self-moderated code of behaviour. Flamers and trolls generally don't last very long here.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
If you really want to learn how to be a poster here on Hatrack, I suggest that you lurk without posting for a while so that you can get a feel for the place.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
This whole situation is awful. And, while his behavior is inexcusable, I have the most sympathy for your brother, Kq, because he sounds like a very unhappy, self-tortured, insecure person. I hope he realizes how much the rest of the family really does love and care about him no matter what he does.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Yeah, if they come back I have a response all ready. "Do you have a warrant? No? Then I will let you in when you have one. In the mean time I am going to contact my lawyer." But I am hoping they will not.
I was just so shocked (and tired) my mind went blank. You know, I had never thought about what I would say if CPS showed up with cops in the middle of the night. In the daytime, sure, but I wasn't expecting it until I started homeschooling my kids. So I didn't have a response ready in my head when they showed up.
Yep,it's not something we tend to expect. I have seen some of my 'net friends have CPS called on them for parenting practices that are legal in the enlightened state of Washington, but not in all states, so I have absorbed a bit of what parent's rights are.
In a nutshell:
Parents do NOT have to let CPS or the police in without a warrant.
Parents have the right to know why CPS is visiting, but not who called.
Parents have the right to RECORD all interactions with CPS/the police, even with a warrant.
(I'm not anti-CPS. I have called them myself-I'm mandated reporter. While I think those parents who keep the video camera byt he door just in case CPS shows up are either paranoid and/or really have somehting to hide, I think every parents should know their basic rights in this area because so few of us do expect it)
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Just reread the subject heading for this thread.
Does anybody else think that, "Livid" sounds like a happy word rather then the proper definition it has?
I feel like in the back of my mind there is a word that sounds very similar to livid but has the opposite meaning. Lucid? Giddy? I can't think of it.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
"Parents do NOT have to let CPS or the police in without a warrant.
Parents have the right to know why CPS is visiting, but not who called.
Parents have the right to RECORD all interactions with CPS/the police, even with a warrant."
Speaking to these quotes, and to the original post, Wow, holy shizzle.
I live in rural North Carolina. This kind of stuff flies around here like a lead kite. No Social Services person would risk their life with this sort of thing. They'd get shot pulling this.
I'm not saying there aren't some stupid parenting practices going on here, just as there are elsewhere. But could the stuff not wait until daylight?
Whatever. Wow. Big culture shock.
I saw a classified ad from the Social Services HR department in the local paper about 5 years ago. "Wanted--Social Service worker. Will visit families in-home to determine welfare of children. Car and bachelor's degree required."
I had a supervisor at a recent job who, prior to moving here, had been a CPS worker in New York City. I would never have expected her to say this, but she seemed to feel that the chances of being shot/beaten on a CPS visit were so much higher here than in NYC that she decided to changed careers.
I don't know. We're not that bad, IMO. I've never shot anybody.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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