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Author Topic: Mitt Romney's out
steven
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I think it's funny that people with little-to-no martial arts experience are arguing with me.

Tom, we're not getting into this here, or anywhere, ever. I don't expect to change your mind, nor do I think it's even possible to do so. Suffice to say, sitting in front of a computer all day, RPGing, and reading comic books do not qualify you to talk down to me about martial arts. I taught regular garden-variety Okinawan karate for years, to both adults and children. Then I stumbled across a much more serious martial system, and got caught up in that. Whatever. Really seriously, though, I am speaking from direct personal experience with everything I have ever said here or on Ornery about martial arts. I have no reason not to. I have the experience.

But seriously, this is a goofy derail. [Smile]

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
Can we please get back to the relevant topic? Now that Romney is out, who will the extra-auto canine placement vote go to?

"honking idiot..." I like that!
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King of Men
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As it happens, I do have some martial arts experience. What I am lacking in, though, is the delusion that this qualifies me to speak about combat with real swords where people genuinely die with cold iron running through their kidneys. It's not the same.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Um, yeah, whatevs. And emacs is clearly superior to vi. Also Macs suck, Linux rules, C++ is better than Java because it's faster, and DirectX is a tool of Micro$oft to make us all into two-dimensional peasants.

VB.NET.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Tom, we're not getting into this here, or anywhere, ever. I don't expect to change your mind, nor do I think it's even possible to do so. Suffice to say, sitting in front of a computer all day, RPGing, and reading comic books do not qualify you to talk down to me about martial arts. I taught regular garden-variety Okinawan karate for years, to both adults and children. Then I stumbled across a much more serious martial system, and got caught up in that. Whatever. Really seriously, though, I am speaking from direct personal experience with everything I have ever said here or on Ornery about martial arts. I have no reason not to. I have the experience.
So does that mean you'll just ignore that entire discussion by a person with more experience than you have in the argument?

Also, does this mean you'll shut up about stuff you don't have that degree of experience in? [Smile]

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Blayne Bradley
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vb sucks.
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steven
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"So does that mean you'll just ignore that entire discussion by a person with more experience than you have in the argument?"

You mean the invisible discussion? 'Cause I don't know what you're talking about.

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Dan_Frank
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Steven, regardless of whatever experience in martial arts you have, you clearly don't know very much about historical European martial arts.

For instance, you said that Asian styles are superior because they utilize their legs. Am I to understand you believe that European martial styles did not utilize their legs?

An old European martial arts buff I knew once told me about a bizarre European martial art. I wish I could remember the name, so that I could try and dig up some information on it. But, essentially, the practitioner would use a sword, usually a two-hander, to bind up his opponents weapon and get in close. Whereupon, he would repeatedly kick his opponent in the shins until he went down.

I'm not kidding. The primary goal of this fighting style was to kick the other guy in the shins.

Obviously, this is not the only European martial art to utilize the legs. Just the funniest.

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Blayne Bradley
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but it is not standard nor relevent to the overarching discussion of can a Samurai in single combat decaitate a Frankish Knight? Or To phrase it cooler, can a master Martial Artist of Asian style defeat the master martial artist of western styles in a winner take all fight to the death?
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rollainm
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All I know is Chuck Norris could take them both out with a single round house kick to the face.
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Samprimary
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...

oh god i should have said nothing about swords

nothing

quote:
Strangely of all the things being discussed here, this is the one I'm the most interested in. Weigh in dammit!
... but .. but ..

quote:
So, I'll stop now, but I'm sure Samp can fill in all the places I left out.
but .. the .. i ..

OKAY FINE AARGH

I'll get started later today.

quote:
Other then the leadership who took over afterwards saying to themselves "okay these works, these others didnt work, lets go with the ideas that worked" and learning from the mistakes of the past pray tell what in your mind would redeem Mao in your view.
Probably something "redeeming" as opposed to "what Mao actually did" I can't invent a historical retcon for the man, so it's pointless asking what he could have hypothetically redeemed himself with if he didn't.

quote:
For the record, 20th century
chgrghk

quote:
I think it's funny that people with little-to-no martial arts experience are arguing with me.
Tom said that you think that martial arts masters can do 'magic.' Do you actually think this or anything approaching or resembling this, and what exactly does it mean?
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Dan_Frank
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Well, Blayne, considering that historically, samurai were as much mounted archers as swordsmen (if not more), I really don't think they have any special advantage. Unless they start really far away from eachother, I suppose.

Of course, if we do that then we could compare Samurai to English Longbowmen.

Look, it's a silly debate. They were very different cultures, with different things to focus on. I'm not really trying to say European martial arts were better, I'm simply saying they existed and were extremely effective, as much so as their Asian counterparts.

Coincidentally, from what we know of them, many of them were surprisingly similar to their Asian counterparts as well.

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Rakeesh
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Steven, you can find the argument linked about 3/4 down on page 4.

quote:
but it is not standard nor relevent to the overarching discussion of can a Samurai in single combat decaitate a Frankish Knight? Or To phrase it cooler, can a master Martial Artist of Asian style defeat the master martial artist of western styles in a winner take all fight to the death?
This right here makes my head hurt. Just what, pray tell, is a 'master Martial Artist of Asian style'? Now, I'm not as much of an expert on the subject as steven, who undoubtedly with his badass kung-fu could kick all of our asses with a pinky, but I don't recall ever hearing about 'Asian style' martial arts.
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steven
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"I'm simply saying they existed and were extremely effective, as much so as their Asian counterparts."

No, but I can see why you'd think that, based on your level of Chinese martial experience.

One thing the European arts are all lacking is simultaneous three-limb coordination combined with seamless transitions. In other words, I, as well as anyone with sufficient training and practice, can throw (with or without weapons) a kick/sweep, as well as two totally separate hand techniques simultaneously, then change the direction and type of attack without the slightest slowing. In other words, the punch in one hand becomes a chop with a totally different angle and target, and the opposite may be happening with the other hand, and the foot is doing a similar seamless transition. In defense, this is nearly unstoppable. I don't really know how many samurai had this level of loose multi-limbed coordination, but I know plenty of Chinese martial artists have trained it to a very high level. I admit, I can't directly speak to the ability level of the samurai, only to Chinese martial artists. However, the Chinese arts are unquestionably the best, in my experience.

"Tom said that you think that martial arts masters can do 'magic.' Do you actually think this or anything approaching or resembling this, and what exactly does it mean?"

I've experienced this myself, and it wasn't particularly pleasant. IMO, the years and/or decades it takes to learn to do things like throw someone without touching them aren't totally worth it. I do know at least one person with this skill. Call me a liar or a fool, and I'll just smile, because I was there, and you weren't.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
No, but I can see why you'd think that, based on your level of Chinese martial experience.
Just curious: what is your level of experience with feudal European fighting styles, by chance?
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Lyrhawn
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I think 100 Franks vs. 100 Samurai would be a big win for the Franks. Motorcycles are far more maneuverable and slick than a tank, but, it's a TANK. The Franks would roll over them. If they were mounted I think the Franks would do even better.

Knights didn't just go to war for fun once in awhile, a lot of them were warriors for money, and made their living at it. If you aren't good, you don't survive, to say nothing of the fact that Europe NEVER had a shortage of experienced warriors for hire. The fact that they had so many is part of what led Urban II to call for the Crusades.

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steven
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"Just curious: what is your level of experience with feudal European fighting styles, by chance?"

The genius of the better Asian arts is that you use the same forms with and without a weapon. This is physical martial arts at a very high level, much higher than dividing martial practice into boxing, wrestling, fencing, etc. It all becomes one single thing. It's the next level. It's a paradigm shift. It's simpler and it's more effective.

I sound like I'm selling men's safety shaving razors. [Smile]

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Rakeesh
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OK, so since you went out of your way to turn a one sentence answer into a...six sentence paragraph that isn't an answer, I think I'm safe in assuming that you have little or no experience in feudal European fighting styles.

Which calls into question all of your other statements on this silly subject about how funny it is that those without experience are arguing with you, who has experience.

Did you read the link I posted?

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Dan_Frank
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Steven, what, exactly, makes you think Europeans could not master "multi-limbed coordination"?

Teenage drummers in garage bands can manage completely different actions with each hand and a foot. Why on earth do you imagine it would be so much more difficult for a European swordsman or wrestler?

quote:
However, the Chinese arts are unquestionably the best, in my experience.
... And as to the completely different topic of what modern martial art is "best", Krav Maga is probably the most lethal. But, on second thought, I think I won't touch this one anymore. It's way too likely to degenerate into a "My kung-fu is greater!" type of argument.

Edit: Apparently, no matter how hard I try, I can't type your name correctly, Steven.
Further Edit: Dang, I post slow. This is why I usually lurk. Half a dozen people reply while I'm making a single post.

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steven
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"Krav Maga is probably the most lethal."

Oh, dear, I can't let this go. Everything that you can find in any Western martial art was already in a Chinese art 1500 years ago. Believe me, I've studied this stuff.

"Stevem what, exactly, makes you think Europeans could not master "multi-limbed coordination"?"

If you actually take a look at the tremendous kicking abilities of the Northern Chinese and the Koreans, you will realize that someone who can do those types of kicks while simultaneously doing complex attacks with both hands is far more deadly than any boxer, wrestler, fencer, etc. The level of development in China was and is simply higher. Not all Chinese martial arts are equally great, though, and the quality of the teacher makes a difference.

I can't really say that the samurai were definitively superior, although it wouldn't surprise me. I just wasn't there 500 years ago, to see their skill level. As far as Chinese arts go, it is possible to comment intelligently, because they are still practiced at a high level today. So, tough to say.

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Blayne Bradley
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The franks did not have tanks nor motorcycles.
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Dan_Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
"Just curious: what is your level of experience with feudal European fighting styles, by chance?"

The genius of the better Asian arts is that you use the same forms with and without a weapon. This is physical martial arts at a very high level, much higher than dividing martial practice into boxing, wrestling, fencing, etc. It all becomes one single thing. It's the next level. It's a paradigm shift. It's simpler and it's more effective.

Sorry to post twice in a row.

But this, especially the italics (which I added, of course), clearly demonstrates that the answer to Rakeesh's question was: "No. I know nothing about historical European fighting styles."

Yes, modern Western fighting is divided into different sports. Actual European martial arts frequently combined unarmed moves with their weapon tactics.

I will of course admit, Europeans never had the focus on unarmed combat that Asia did. Primarily because, the people studying European martial arts were, by and large, legally allowed to carry weapons. Somehow, this doesn't feel like a disadvantage to me.

But they utilized unarmed maneuvers alongside weapon tactics, and you so clearly know nothing about them that I ponder why you're continuing to argue this point.

You know, this took me so long it's probably not a double post anymore. Oh well.

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Lyrhawn
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You should add a smiley face so I know you're kidding. Otherwise I have to add [Roll Eyes]
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steven
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The Chinese (and the Hindus) had incorporated pressure-point attacks into their martial arts at least 2000 years ago. It's all well and good to be quick and strong and big...but if you don't know the pressure points, you're going to be working a lot harder, and fighting a lot longer. The carotid sinus is a perfect example of this. A medium-hard hit to that area generally produces a knockout, and a hard hit produces death. It's not some tiny little point, it's very easy to hit, and law enforcement are often trained in its use, although I think they avoid using it if possible. It really can be a kill point.

There are other points too, but that's the big one that I'd use if I had to fight. There are also points that respond mainly to pinching-type pressure, you know, whatever, it's a big topic.

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Blayne Bradley
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by saying that western martial arts were sports is merely coming up with excuses, find the most lethal martial art form that the west can offer, and pit it against the most lethal that Asia can offer, and who would win?
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Dan_Frank
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I think we've all been ignoring the really pertinent question, considering what thread we're in:

Which would Mitt Romney pick, Knights or Samurai?

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Dan_Frank
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Blayne, I'm saying that Western fighting styles in their modern form are sports, and bear little resemblance to their historical origins.

In point of fact, it's hard to get accurate information on their historical origins. Because European martial arts were designed for killing people, and when they found better ways of doing that, they moved on. Something Asia didn't do until much later.

Let's pit a 19th century European martial artist against a 19th century Samurai! I know how that one ends.

With a gunshot.

[ February 10, 2008, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Dan_Frank ]

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Samprimary
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quote:
"Tom said that you think that martial arts masters can do 'magic.' Do you actually think this or anything approaching or resembling this, and what exactly does it mean?"

I've experienced this myself, and it wasn't particularly pleasant. IMO, the years and/or decades it takes to learn to do things like throw someone without touching them aren't totally worth it. I do know at least one person with this skill. Call me a liar or a fool, and I'll just smile, because I was there, and you weren't.

It just means that I and everyone else pretty much should disregard your 'expert' input on the matter of the effectiveness of fighting styles since it's heavily infused with belief in wildly unproven mysticism that casts serious doubt on your ability to reasonably judge these things. If you're willing to believe that martial arts masters gain The Force through their practices then you're exactly the person not to listen to when it comes to a debate about fighting effectiveness. Matters of home-team bias entirely aside, too.

I'll ignore it as handily as I would ignore someone saying "I know the Samurai were superior fighters because their swordplay makes voodoo magic happen. I was there and you were not, qed."

Sorry dude! I don't see why I should entertain hearsay and ye olde tales of kung fu majick.

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steven
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Let's put it this way. Go pick a fight at an American bar. What's the guy's fighting technique? Simple and crude, punching, basic wrestling moves, maybe a wild swing or two with a pool cue.

Try the same thing in China. Depending on who you pick, you have an excellent chance of being out cold real, real quick, no matter how much boxing and wrestling you've studied.

"Let's pit an 19th century European martial artist against an 19th century Samurai! I know how that one ends.

With a gunshot.
"

Actually, most good cops with the proper training will tell you that, when the distance is less than 17 feet or so away, it's questionable as to who will come out on top. Guns aren't so great at grappling range. They can be turned on you very easily.

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Dan_Frank
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I find it funny how every time any topic is brought up, you twist it around in bizarre ways to make a point.

When we discuss knights and samurai, you explain how an unarmed European would be beaten by an unarmed Asian. That's nice. What does that have to do with anything, though?

Likewise, when I make a joke about a European shooting a samurai from the same era, you explain that, actually, it's hard to shoot someone when they're very close to you. Again, that's nice. Um, so what?

Bah, I will give you one thing, though.

You've got a knack for quoting my typos.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Let's put it this way. Go pick a fight at an American bar. What's the guy's fighting technique? Simple and crude, punching, basic wrestling moves, maybe a wild swing or two with a pool cue.

Try the same thing in China. Depending on who you pick, you have an excellent chance of being out cold real, real quick, no matter how much boxing and wrestling you've studied.

Barfights in both countries are actually pretty much the exact same thing. You're just making stuff up, now.
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Blayne Bradley
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I do not think he has done any twisting that instead everyone else here has done the twisting. We are not comparing a prussian footsoldier with a Chinese foot soldier, with the same equipment and training it all depends on terrain and leadership.

What we are comparing is a feudal matchup between of equal skill in their respective arts.

To dismiss this as trivial because the west developed guns is evading the question, Japan and China had guns as well, the political climate simply dismissed them as unnessasary once political leadership consolidated itself centrally over the land. Japanese gun tactics were well on their way to 18-19th century standards until Tokugawa won the sengoku jidai.

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Dan_Frank
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Once again, the gun thing was a joke.

And, if you'll recall, this conversation started with a discussion of whether Japanese swords were superior to European ones (actually this discussion started with Mitt Romney. Man, that's some crazy thread drift right there). Peripherally, we considered knights as a whole, and samurai as a whole. Even more peripherally, we considered the martial techniques of Europe and Asia.

Steven seems to consider the weaponry aspect negligible, which is kind of insane, considering the whole point was the weapons. And as I said, most European fighting styles were weapon-centric, for the simple reason that European martial artists were legally allowed to carry them, whereas a number of Asian forms developed specifically out of a lack of legal weaponry.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Suffice to say, sitting in front of a computer all day, RPGing, and reading comic books do not qualify you to talk down to me about martial arts.
On the other hand, having a fully functional brain qualifies me to talk down to you about magick. [Smile]

(Edit: And seriously, dude, why are you so hung up on my hobbies? I can't imagine what you'd go on about if I were really into needlepoint and fly fishing.)

[ February 10, 2008, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
vb sucks.

Producing good code in VB is an art. Like catching a large fish with weak line. You just don't have the proper appreciation for getting good results from bad tools.
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
by saying that western martial arts were sports is merely coming up with excuses, find the most lethal martial art form that the west can offer, and pit it against the most lethal that Asia can offer, and who would win?

Ok. The most lethal Western style of martial arts would be the classical knight, either on horseback or on foot. He has better armour, equally good coordination (ignore steven on the subject, he doesn't know anything about it), a better sword, and he's likely got more reach and strength. Advantage: Knight.
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steven
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"ignore steven on the subject, he doesn't know anything about it"

Ignore KoM, he's a self-aggrandizing egotistical blowhard.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
And, if you'll recall, this conversation started with a discussion of whether Japanese swords were superior to European ones (actually this discussion started with Mitt Romney. Man, that's some crazy thread drift right there)...

I will quickly point out that this particular conversation started with my comparison of Blayne's worship of China to the stereotypical one-sided fanboy.

Thus I find it vaguely amusing that this *negative* comparison has triggered a genuine fanboy "versus" debate

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Samprimary
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Seriously, no asianophilia is complete without "katana > all other swords" entering the debate.

I honestly think it's sometimes good to blow out all the nerdy fantasy wargaming, so I welcome the Samurai vs. Knights vs. Boxers vs. Judo vs. Jackie Chan vs. Broadswords vs. Katanas vs. Sport Fencing vs. Mao vs. Goku vs. Superman vs. Pirate vs. Ninja I just don't know if I'm a bad person for unleashing it in a mitt romney thread :/

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steven
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"Steven seems to consider the weaponry aspect negligible, which is kind of insane, considering the whole point was the weapons."

The misconception on your part is that samurai would try a toe-to-toe approach with a heavily armored opponent. No, they'd be dodging, weaving, tripping, and kicking his lower body, until the big overarmored lumbering oaf overbalanced and fell on his overconfident tuchus. At that point, he becomes human sushi, because he can't get up, and he's too heavy and overarmored to effectively fight from the ground.

Not only that, the more maneuverable samurai is probably going to be able to use stepping techniques to get behind the slow, lumbering oaf, and, since the katana is a fairly flat blade, he'll be able to slide that flat blade in between the chinks, so to speak, and pierce organs/sever tendons. Human sushi.

You're missing the usefulness of the dodging/weaving/kicking. Sneaky cheap stuff like that often wins out over brute strength and size.

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Javert Hugo
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I've thoroughly enjoyed this. I always thought the pirates vs. ninjas debates were jokes.
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Lisa
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Btw, in case anyone is wondering, all participants in this debate have been automatically granted an extra 10 points on the geek scale.
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Dan_Frank
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Armored knights being unable to get up from the ground is a myth. To people strong enough to handle its weight, and practiced with it, even heavy plate armor was not nearly as restrictive as you think it was.

You seem to thing being strong precludes being quick, but it doesn't. It's quite possible to be both.

Mucus, I really don't consider myself a Europe fanboy. I'm just objecting to the rather bold claims Blayne and Steven have made.

Biased, generalizing statements like "Big, lumbering oaf" don't strengthen your argument, Steven, they weaken it.

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steven
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Hey guys...we have a girl in the thread.
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Samprimary
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quote:
No, they'd be dodging, weaving, tripping, and kicking his lower body, until the big overarmored lumbering oaf overbalanced and fell on his overconfident tuchus. At that point, he becomes human sushi, because he can't get up, and he's too heavy and overarmored to effectively fight from the ground.
Maybe you should, you know, learn something about armored combat. Knights, Parthian cataphract, all of that. If you're suggesting that they were 'lumbering oafs' who would not be able to stand up if (or in your words, when) they fall down because they were wearing about 45 pounds of steel then it's easy to conclude that you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

None.

The additional assumption that they will be by nature overconfident (apparently a necessary character trait of anyone who fights in armor now) is also pretty out there. I mean, along with the whole Barfight In China argument, I'm seeing you as a person who is just imagining things at convenience.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Hey guys...we have a girl in the thread.

And shes gay as well.
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Lyrhawn
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What does that have to do with anything?
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Blayne Bradley
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I do not think you understand, the stereotypical nerd is even more amazed at a openly gay woman in their midst then a heterosexual woman in their midst to the point of shock.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Seriously, no asianophilia is complete without "katana > all other swords" entering the debate.

I honestly think it's sometimes good to blow out all the nerdy fantasy wargaming ...

But seriously, the whole thing is so silly.
In fact the whole debate is so incredibly ill-defined.

We don't know which kind of knight we're talking about: are we talking about heavy calvary, light calvary, dismounted knights
We don't know where the knights are from: are we talking knights from Germany, Britain, or are we talking brain dead Knights Templar from the Crusades?
We don't know what time period they're from, who is on the offensive, the environment, how each side is even motivated to fight, does either side have time to plan, or even if they've had anything to eat or drink recently

The whole thing is made even more ludicrous by the fact that in any historical engagement between military forces from what we would call "the west" or the "the east", without clear technological advantages, battles are not decided by tiny differences in hand-to-hand combat or equipment but by that most important feature that humans have: the brain.

What kind of tactics does each side employ? Can one side determine the field of battle? Can one side identify the other sides weaknesses? These are all questions that have to be answered.

Without answers to these questions, the whole thing is just a test of what you like best, what you're a biggest *fan* of.

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Samprimary
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Usually it's just a question of a straight-up duel between an elite heavy infantry commonly associated with frankish/western armies (or even middle eastern intermediaries, like jannisaries or sipahi of the porte).

Sometimes people have fun with the whole thing by pitting romans against samurai.

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