posted
I agree -- which would indicate to me that less women would try to hide their own pregnancy then men would try to hide having gotten someone pregnant, because it's so much more difficult.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Oh, I agree with that too. That it's much less likely for such a story to be true about a woman (hiding her own pregnancy) than a man (hiding a woman he's gotten pregnant).
What I meant by the original post, though, is simply that I thought that these sorts of stories would become more common-not that they'd be true.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I guess it all depends on what you mean by "scandals like this". Its relatively uncommon for a woman to have a baby and a sixteen year old daughter and probably very unlikely for a that sixteen year old daughter to have been out of school with mono for the previous 5 months. So I suspect that even as women in politics become more common rumors of this nature aren't terribly likely.
If on the other hand what you mean by "scandals like this" is simply pregnancy scandals involving women politicians, then I suspect it will be come more common for women politicians to be accused of things like have given up a child for adoption as a teenager, having had an abortion at some point in their lives, or having a child that was not fathered by their husband.
As a side note, I don't know if pulling this off would be as difficult as some people have indicated. It wouldn't require the doctor to forge the birth certificate since birth certificates for living persons are not generally in the public domain. Medical records are protected by federal law. Hospital employees are bound by law not to reveal this sort of information, doing so would cost them their jobs and likely their license so its unlikely anyone would be willing to go on the record about it.
I'm not saying I believe the story is true, it's probably not. From a political angle, however, I think it might be better if it were true. I'd think much more favorably of a mother who was going to such lengths to protect her teenage daughter than one who boarded a plane for an 8 hour flight while in labor. Do we really want a VP who was more concerned about where the baby was born than about the child's health and safety? Do we really want a VP who was willing to risk giving birth at 30 thousand feet to a child who was known to have a serious birth defect just so her baby wouldn't be a Texan?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
The more I hear about the hurried revision plans for the GOP convention, the more I think this might help them big time. By slashing the opening festivities to just what's legally required, by going to emergency centers now as McCain has done, by flying affected delegates home, by asking donations to be send to victim relief, and by basically being presidential about the oncoming disaster in a way that President Bush famously was not, McCain could come out of this looking great.
I do not suggest that motivation is anything but doing what's right for the storm victims, mind you. Had McCain been in charge during Katrina, I have absolutely no doubt that there would not have been the same complaints about the administration. But the way they're going about dealing with the storm makes me think much more highly of them.
I'd love to see the Dems join forces with the GOP and really work together. How cool would that be, during a heated campaign? Put away everyone's egos and serve the country. We could really, really use it for once.
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posted
Politically it does seem like the only answer is the one they're currently doing. Shorten the convention and focus on the hurricane. So far both sides have been respectful and conscientious. It's nice.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
according to Fox news Palin is a great VP because she has foreign experience, "since after all being next to Russia" would give said experience.
quote:Politically it does seem like the only answer is the one they're currently doing. Shorten the convention and focus on the hurricane. So far both sides have been respectful and conscientious. It's nice.
posted
Idiot. You better assume, in this day and age, with cell phone cameras and small recording devices, that you are on a live mike at all times.
I can understand the remark - honestly, I've said many flippant things in jest that were they posted on YouTube would sound very offensive even though I didn't mean them that way.
But I'm not a political figure, and no one is likely to care if I make such flippant remarks.
Jest or not, this makes him look like a real jerk. Granted, Falwell was a jerk too with his remarks. But joking in the same vein looks more like emulating Falwell than denouncing him.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Bristol Palin, the 17 year old daughter of Sarah Palin, is pregnant and will keep the baby and marry the father, a senior McCain aide confirmed to CNN Monday....Bristol Palin, a senior in high school, is about 5 months along, in her second trimester, according to the aide.
Well that throws the rumor for a loop. Now we're back to flying on a plane for 8 hours after your water broke.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Link to story on Bristol's pregnancy. Some of the reader's comments at the end are despicable. I think about some of the stuff my brother did at 17 and hate to think that people judge my mother's values based on it.
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posted
I hope for Bristol's sake that she would have married that guy whether or not her mom suddenly became the VP candidate. It's not a remote possibility that she's being forced this choice as the most politically viable considering her pregnancy.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I'm finding it a little hard to believe that McCain's campaign actually knew about this when they chose her.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Democrats won't go after her for experience except as a way to blunt any attack from McCain. If McCain says Obama is inexperienced, Obama will say "that's okay with me, but if it's not okay with you, then why'd you pick your VP who has even less experience than I do? Something doesn't track there."
They already did. From Obama spokesman Bill Burton, on the day of the VP announcement:
quote:Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency.
I never bought the experience argument anyway. But this is amazingly self-destructive. They should have listened to you.
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Self destructive? Come on. You're not thinking the conversation out.
Obama: That's okay with me, but if it's not okay with you, then why'd you pick your VP who has even less experience than I do?
McCain: I picked someone who has fought corruption in both parties, fought big oil, passed a landmark ethics reform bill, and fought back congressional pork projects, including the "Bridge to nowhere." She did all of this and more while you spent your two years in the senate running for President. How many times has the Senate subcommittee on Europe you chair even met, Senator?
Posts: 241 | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Wow, why would anyone accept a nomination for vice president knowing that their daughter's unplanned pregnancy would thereby instantly become national news?
Palin must put quite a high priority on her career.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Describe to me a plausible set of circumstances according to which accepting the nomination was the best choice for the Palins' kids.
By the way, I don't think her misplaced priorities set her apart from other politicians at all. Why John Edwards would seek high office, giving investigative reporters every incentive to make his affair public, is also beyond me.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Obama has strongly condemned the use of Bristol Palin by Democrats as an avenue of attack, going as far as to say that anyone in his campaign who does so will be fired. He also reminded reporters that he himself was the result of a teenage pregnancy - his mother was 18 when he was born.
Exactly the right response in this situation.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Sometimes I wish people would just mind their own business. Other times, when I get a little angrier, I wish the media in general would just one day find their jobs gone and be forced to scavenge crap elsewhere. Good for Obama to make that response. When are people gonna learn that politicians are not mass-produced from a factory, or sent down from God? They are normal people just like every other American in many ways. And, gasp. GUESS WHAT? Normal people quite often have young pregnancies, unfaithful marital situations, and say bad things when they get emotional. NO WAY!!!
Posts: 349 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I say leave the daughter out of it, but frankly the biggest attacks she'll get are from the same people that were so excited she was chosen to begin with. The same family values people that she energized are going to wring their hands at her parenting skills. I think it's liberals, ironically, who'd have a much smaller problem with this. I know I don't personally.
The only possible problem I might point out, is that Palin supports abstinence only education. Maybe if her daughter had known about protection, she wouldn't have had this problem. Still I wouldn't make her daughter a campaign issue. I still think it's a valid debate point (sex-ed, not her daughter) but I'd leave her daughter out of it. I'd like for the press not to mention it at all.
quote:Originally posted by Cactus Jack: Self destructive? Come on. You're not thinking the conversation out.
Obama: That's okay with me, but if it's not okay with you, then why'd you pick your VP who has even less experience than I do?
McCain: I picked someone who has fought corruption in both parties, fought big oil, passed a landmark ethics reform bill, and fought back congressional pork projects, including the "Bridge to nowhere." She did all of this and more while you spent your two years in the senate running for President. How many times has the Senate subcommittee on Europe you chair even met, Senator?
Easily refuted. She leapfrogged scandal entangled Republicans to get ahead of them to the Governor's mansion, she didn't fight pork, she's on record as having said she wanted to get as much money as she could while Stevens was still a powerful senator, and when she "killed" the bridge to nowhere, she redirected the money to other Alaskan projects, she didn't give it back. Her way of fighting big oil is to push for a massive new pipeline and wants to drill everywhere there is oil, she's just quibbling over a couple dollars and cents here and there in royalties. Huzzah for that, but it ain't fighting big oil. While she was the Mayor of Wasilla, he was in the Illinois state legislature passing ethics reform legislation, and dozens of other bills in a large industrialized state while she enjoyed a largely ceremonial position. She has limited experience in a state whose problems do not mirror the problems of the nation at large, problems that Obama has been working on for the last couple years, and that Biden has been working on for decades. Then he can bring up Biden's qualifications.
McCain will lose the experience argument here. The media is already all over it, and he's not going to turn it with a couple press releases, not when her record is so small and easy to read.
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posted
Not to mention that she actually supported the "bridge to nowhere" until it became politically unpopular and a prominent example of government overspending. Cite.Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Easily refuted.
Rather, I would say, "Refutable."
I didn't toss it up there as inalienable proof she was more qualified. Just that it was presumptuous to say the whole campaign was going to be destroyed by this.
My guess is no matter what either side says about experience, all the same people will still support both sides. It's not going to change anybody's minds either way.
The original post had just acted as if there would be no response, and that was just silly.
But I'm not surprised that people felt the need to argue with my argument, even though my argument wasn't my point--my point was just that there was an argument.
Um, what am I talking about?
Posts: 241 | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk: Obama has strongly condemned the use of Bristol Palin by Democrats as an avenue of attack, going as far as to say that anyone in his campaign who does so will be fired. He also reminded reporters that he himself was the result of a teenage pregnancy - his mother was 18 when he was born.
Exactly the right response in this situation.
I hope he can stand by that stance, he has shown his willingness to fire staffers who do not run the campaign he is running before.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Sen. McCain has stated that he was told about Gov. Palin's daughter being pregnant during the vetting process, and he decided that most Americans would not hold this against the Governor, and it would not hurt their candidacy.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
A broken clock is right twice a day.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Sen. McCain has stated that he was told about Gov. Palin's daughter being pregnant during the vetting process, and he decided that most Americans would not hold this against the Governor, and it would not hurt their candidacy.
If that's true, I'm surprised that a) they didn't release the news themselves earlier so they could control it, rather than waiting until they had to release it to counter a more potentially damaging rumor, and b) that their response to the issue seemed so unpolished.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The same family values people that she energized are going to wring their hands at her parenting skills. I think it's liberals, ironically, who'd have a much smaller problem with this.
I decided to check this out. I was at a meeting with 6 evangelical Baptists tonight (plus me, a Roman Catholic), and afterwards I said, "Informal poll. Governor Palin's teenage daughter is pregnant and unmarried. What effect does this have on your opinion of Palin's candidacy?"
5 said "no effect." The other said, "People make mistakes."
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
See, that's the thing. People like this (and me) may be opposed to a culture that says it's just fine and dandy for teenagers to be unwed mothers. That doesn't mean that we condemn everyone in that situation. Mistakes do happen. It's when people refuse to acknowledge that it was a mistake and try and make it into a virtue that they run into opposition.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
As more and more comes out about how Senator McCain chose Gov. Palin, it seems more and more obvious to me that his priority was mobilizing the conservative base (and possibly women) and that providing for the country's security was not.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The same family values people that she energized are going to wring their hands at her parenting skills. I think it's liberals, ironically, who'd have a much smaller problem with this.
I decided to check this out. I was at a meeting with 6 evangelical Baptists tonight (plus me, a Roman Catholic), and afterwards I said, "Informal poll. Governor Palin's teenage daughter is pregnant and unmarried. What effect does this have on your opinion of Palin's candidacy?"
5 said "no effect." The other said, "People make mistakes."
Figures. When they read about it on the news they rail about parenting and how schools are warping the minds of children and how society is crumbling, but when their standard bearer is the mother of a an example, then suddenly people make mistakes.
It's not universal, but there's some hypocrist going on there. I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I am.
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posted
They certainly had no way to win on that one! Whether they agree with you or not, on a yes or no question!
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote: When they read about it on the news they rail about parenting and how schools are warping the minds of children and how society is crumbling, but when their standard bearer is the mother of a an example, then suddenly people make mistakes.
I think most people understand the difference between decrying a growing trend of nameless, faceless numbers and making a judgement about one person in particular. And given that these are folks who likely believe that we should love the sinner but hate the sin, it sounds logically consistant to me.
Personally, I was having sex at that age so I wouldn't be very comfortable saying jack about it. Just sayin.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote: I say leave the daughter out of it, but frankly the biggest attacks she'll get are from the same people that were so excited she was chosen to begin with. The same family values people that she energized are going to wring their hands at her parenting skills. I think it's liberals, ironically, who'd have a much smaller problem with this. I know I don't personally.
did you happen to see Diane Sawyer this morning?
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I'm of the "People make mistakes" crowd regarding Palin.
I do think there are times when parenting matters. For example, here, when Jeb Bush's kid was arrested for public drunkenness and resisting arrest. I don't mind the son's crimes, but the Bush response, about how this is a family matter and about how they supporting him. The guy was 21 and resisting arrest. That night, he was a menace. I don't want to hear that the Bush's support him or think it's merely a family matter. Gov. Bush's first priority should have been to apologize the officers. I want to hear that they feel bad that their son is a nuisance and officers had to risk themselves to detain him. Another example is Obama's talk about urban and public education and talk against vouchers, yet he chooses to send his kids to private school, on a University of Chicago voucher. I think that's fair game because that's not about the kid's decisions, it's about the parent's character.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Romney is unacceptable because something that happened a hundred years before he was born, but Palin is awesome despite the chaos in her own family?? What - it is better to mouth the correct "values" using the correct words to prove membership than it is to actually live up to them???
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I hate to sound crass, but I think the left and the MSM actually did Palin a huge favor. By reporting the over-the-top rumors about Palin's youngest baby actually being her daughter's, when the real story came out it made the MSM and left-wing pundits and bloggers seem so vicious it cast the whole thing in a light far more sympathetic to Palin than if word had simply got out that her daughter was pregnant.
What I find hilarious is that basically the left's reaction to the true story is, "Well, we don't care about such things, but you know this is going to upset those snooty, self righteous conservatives."
I'm sorry, but the fact is that, believe it or not, even conservatives know this kind of thing happens, and I'd venture a guess that religious conservatives actually have more exposure to teen pregancy than any non-religious liberal who doesn't work with teenagers. We know it happens, even to the best kids, and sometimes even to our own kids.
This isn't something we've suddenly found a softer position on because of Palin--this the position nearly every Christian conservative discovers the moment a teen they love makes a mistake.
And watching the Palins handle this problem--not in the only acceptable way, as many non-christians would have it--but in one of the many possible ways helps us gain respect for them. As opossed to Obama, who, despite his position as the candidate of nuance, feels that there are only two options when a teen becomes pregant--abortion or to "punish my daughter with a baby."
I'm not trying to derail this into an abortion debate--I'm just trying to show you how a lot of conservatives see this, as opposed to how the MSM is trying to spin that their caricatures of conservatives should be seeing this.
And yeah, I know the "two option" view of Barak's position of abortion is a bit of an exaggeration, but when the "punish my daughter with a baby" quote is floating around during a time like this, that is exactly where the contrast between the two candidates gets drawn.
Besides, as teenage pregancies become more common, the left simply can't make this an issue without inadvertantly offending everyone out there who either had a teenage dauaghter or sibling become pregant, was a teenage parent themselves, or was the child of a teen parent.
As for the notion that the pregnancy was kept secret from McCain, CNN/Time says that it was an open secret in Alaska:
quote: Romney is unacceptable because something that happened a hundred years before he was born, but Palin is awesome despite the chaos in her own family??
Romney is unacceptable because he wanted to abolish the US Department of Education. He has since changed his mind...
Romney is unacceptable because he equated his sons campaigning for him in the primary to other people sending their kids off to fight in the war. The problem with Romney isn't that he is LDS. Harry Reid is fine. The problem is that Romney is an ass.
quote:What - it is better to mouth the correct "values" using the correct words to prove membership than it is to actually live up to them???
It sounds like the Palin family is making the best of a bad situation, and let's be honest, for a family who loves kids, I think it's nice they are trying to make it work as a positive. If you are going to have children, I think the chlidren should be welcomed. I think in providing support and a home for the untimed new born, Sarah Palin is living up to her values. None of this changes that Romney is still an ass.
quote:Romney is unacceptable because something that happened a hundred years before he was born,
Romney is unacceptable to many Evangelical voters because he has made position changes on issues highly important to them, and each time he made the switch, it was in the direction of the view that was most politically expedient at the time.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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But for many many, they wouldn't even consider voting for him because of his religion.
Which is so utterly lame and unAmerican it makes me nauseous.
I think it's distasteful, but depending on the religion, is it really unamerican? I thought part of the dignity of the secret ballot is that one can vote however one wants for whatever reason one wants.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
There is also the plight of the ethnically Chinese atheist. I think the only way one could be less considered for voting would be to be a gay Chinese atheist, although judging by the "Obama is a secret Muslim" hoopla, being a Muslim is no picnic either.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:I'd venture a guess that religious conservatives actually have more exposure to teen pregancy than any non-religious liberal who doesn't work with teenagers.
Well, sure. You don't tell them about birth control, you're going to get pregnant girls more often than people who do. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Mankind: Besides, as teenage pregancies become more common, the left simply can't make this an issue without inadvertantly offending everyone out there who either had a teenage dauaghter or sibling become pregant, was a teenage parent themselves, or was the child of a teen parent.
You mean people like Obama?
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