quote:Personally, I was having sex at that age so I wouldn't be very comfortable saying jack about it. Just sayin.
Were you using reliable birth control?
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In general, I agree that Gov. Palin's daughter should be left alone (given that the media harped on Sen Obama not wearing a flag pin, I don't see that happening), but given Gov Palin's pushing abstinence-only education, I do think she should be asked if, given what happened, she would have preferred that her daughter was taught how to use birth control and that it was readily available for her.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:In general, I agree that Gov. Palin's daughter should be left alone (given that the media harped on Sen Obama not wearing a flag pin, I don't see that happening), but given Gov Palin's pushing abstinence-only education, I do think she should be asked if, given what happened, she would have preferred that her daughter was taught how to use birth control and that it was readily available for her.
If there were a tasteful way to have that conversation, it would be an excellent discussion.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Screw tasteful. This is a woman who has very little experience, almost no national profile and has not been vetted who could be President soon.
Don't harrass the daughter, fine, but Gov Palin doesn't have the priviledge of people having to tiptoe around topics like this.
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Is the assertion behind the question that Palin somehow kept her daughter ignorant of contraception, or that Palin made her daughter believe that having sex with contraception was a bigger mistake than having unprotected sex?
Posts: 75 | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Is the assertion behind the question that Palin somehow kept her daughter ignorant of contraception, or that Palin made her daughter believe that having sex with contraception was a bigger mistake than having unprotected sex?
quote:Is the assertion behind the question that Palin somehow kept her daughter ignorant of contraception, or that Palin made her daughter believe that having sex with contraception was a bigger mistake than having unprotected sex?
Something happened. In general, we don't like it when high-schoolers get pregnant. Now the Palin family is solid enough to absorb an unplanned infant or two, but as a matter public policy and public education, what happened and why should be addressed.
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"I do think she should be asked if, given what happened, she would have preferred that her daughter was taught how to use birth control and that it was readily available for her" seems to imply that nobody taught her daughter to use birth control and/or that it wasn't readily available to her daughter.
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So far, I think they've done a very poor job making the case for her as a viable VP.
I'm not a big fan of Sen Biden, but it is clear that he can belong on a Presidential ticket. Even the people specifically tasked to promote Gov Palin don't seem to think that she does.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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"but given Gov Palin's pushing abstinence-only education, I do think she should be asked if, given what happened, she would have preferred that her daughter was taught how to use birth control and that it was readily available for her."
Yeah 'cause the birth control part of sex-education that the libs teach works so well...
This country has no problems with abortion right...
Posts: 571 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Screw tasteful. This is a woman who has very little experience, almost no national profile and has not been vetted who could be President soon.
Yeah, because the professional politicians have done such an outstanding job.
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You know, it seems people are assuming that I think that Gov Palin's answers will be to her detriment.
I don't necessarily think that this is the case.
I think that this is an important conversation to have and to have with an eye towards the results. I think some of the more simplistic, dismissive ideas about this are much less likely to be satisfying when one has a teenager get or get someone else pregnant.
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quote:Yeah, because the professional politicians have done such an outstanding job.
You seem to think that I regard professional political experience as a definitely good thing to have. I don't.
What I do value is information about a candidate, especially indications that he can handle the job he is seeking.
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I think it is appropriate to re-ask Gov. Palin's stance on abstinince only education. "Gov. Palin have you re-thought your support of abstinance only education?" I don't think that specifically or directly refering to her daughter is necessary or appropriate and I don't think that we need more information than that.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Screw tasteful. This is a woman who has very little experience, almost no national profile and has not been vetted who could be President soon.
Yeah, because the professional politicians have done such an outstanding job.
So now Sarah Palin isn't a professional politician? Does being governor of Alaska count as executive experience or not?
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I am a huge, enormous fan of complete and total clinical sex education.
1) I'm a fan of information in general. I don't like secrets, and I don't think people are benefited by them.
2) Sexuality is part of being human. I'm not talking about discussing the fringe things people do, but information about what will most likely be a big part of their lives can only be to their benefit.
3) This is just me, but holy crap, talk about off-putting. You can get diseases through sex that you can't get ANY OTHER WAY except by sharing blood. Sex isn't like hugging someone - it's mingling juices in a particular intimate way. It isn't a way to prove your love; it isn't a trophy; it isn't a chip to be gambled or used for leverage. It's a big deal, and a thorough and honest sex education teaches that better than all the "It's A Big Deal Don't Do It But We Won't Talk About It" preaching could.
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quote:I don't think that specifically or directly refering to her daughter is necessary or appropriate and I don't think that we need more information than that.
I think personally having to face what is the increased results of a abstinence-only education is an important part of this conversation.
Without something like that to keep them honest, I expect most politicians to go with the pat, empty answers.
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Mr. Squicky, anyone who is paying attention knows the context in which Gov. Palin is answering that question. If she gives a thoughtful response that shows she is facing the question in an honest way - even if it hasn't changed her mind - we will know something useful. If she give a pat answer, we will still know something useful.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Screw tasteful. This is a woman who has very little experience, almost no national profile and has not been vetted who could be President soon.
Yeah, because the professional politicians have done such an outstanding job.
So now Sarah Palin isn't a professional politician? Does being governor of Alaska count as executive experience or not?
What do you mean by "count"? As best I know this isn't a simple scoring operation. Being mayor even of a small town gives one executive experience, being Governor of a small state for a year and a half gives one executive experience. But that doesn't even begin to address the real question -- What part of her life experience is relevant to being VP or potentially even President of the US?
So for example, city governments deal with zoning, local roads, police, utilities, and parks. In Bozeman MT for example (a town 5 times the size of Wasilla Al), the primary budget items are for snow plows, road repair and tree maintenance.
State governments biggest budget items are education, prisons and roads. In fact, the intersection between what local and state politicians do and what national politicians do is very very small. What specifically has she dealt with that will be of use to her as VP or potentially even President (McCain is after all the oldest man ever to run for a first term).
The question posed in the CNN link MrSquicky posted is a prime example. Yes Palin has been commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard for the past 19 months, but what specific choices, duties and responsibilities has she had that are even remotely relevant to being commander in chief of the US army? In reality, since 9/11/01, governor's have had almost no say over deployment of National Guard troops and equipment. In 2005, Montana's governor requested that Montana National Guard troops be sent home for the summer to assist with a severe fire season (suggesting that they could instead serve in Iraq during the winter months). The pentagon and the courts told him he had not say in it.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Obviously, and undeniably in fact, Bristol disobeyed her parents. How should parents deal with a child who disobeys, and as a result suffers consequences that are life-long lasting? Conservative Christians around the country, by all accounts I have heard, approve of the way Gov. Palin and her husband are dealing with the problem--accepting that what is done is done, and giving their whole-hearted support to their daughter, and their guidance for her to make the best of the situation by having the child and marrying the child's father. I'm not sure that marrying the child's father would always be the best thing to do, but that is what they have chosen to do in this case. I hope it is not a classic "shot-gun" wedding. Imagine the pressure on the father, to face the entire nation knowing he impregnated the daughter of the person who could become vice president, and even president, of the United States!
I also sympathize with Bristol--imagine her fear that she may, by her indiscretion, have cost her mother her chance to be elected vice president of the United States. It still is not clear that will not be the result. Teenage rebellion is one thing, but no daughter who even remotely loves her mother would want to cause that.
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I sympathize with Bristol Palin as well. Surely, going through this in the public spotlight - inevitable once her mother decided to run for national office - must make a difficult time even more trying.
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quote:The pentagon and the courts told him he had not say in it.
That really bothers me. I'd have to do some research into what the specific laws say regarding militias, but I know that a 150 years ago, states would have left the union if the president claimed control over state militias. I think even 100 years ago, when the Milia Act was passed, they would have.
I know that just recently the law was changed twice. A few years ago it was changed to make the President commander in chief of all national guard units. When every governor in the country rightfully cried bloody murder, they changed it back a couple years ago, so I don't understand how the federal government still gets control of them. Maybe there's a perfectly reasonable explanation, but I just haven't had time to look for it.
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As I understand it, which is just going on not much at all, the President becomes Commander-in-Chief when the national government calls them up and the state governments consent. So, I think that the states can keep control, but if they give it up, can't get it back unilaterally.
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I'm going to agree with you on that one Dag. In my experience, curriculum decision should be made as close to the classroom as possible. The further the decision makers are from the actual classrooms, the worse the decisions tend to be.
Unfortunately, we are a long way from that ideal and moving further from it. As long as Presidents are making decisions about the sex education curriculum, I think it has to be a relevant question for a VP candidate. If her answer is, I think those decisions should be made at a local level and would oppose any federal legislation that connected federal funding with restriction of any kind on the nature of sex education curriculum -- I'd approve, but that would be a departure from her previous stance.
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I will be quite surprised if Gov. Palin is NOT asked about her views concerning abstinence only education in light of this. But I do hope the question is put tastefully, and that she impresses me with her response.
Right now I just don't know enough about her to form a strong opinion.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: As I understand it, which is just going on not much at all, the President becomes Commander-in-Chief when the national government calls them up and the state governments consent. So, I think that the states can keep control, but if they give it up, can't get it back unilaterally.
I think that one has been tested in court and the courts have ruled that if the states are accepting federal funding for equipment and training of the national guard (which all states are) the federal government can call them up for international assignments without the state governors consent. I can't find the reference on that but I will keep trying.
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: I read a comment on a blog that said McCain must have chosen Palin as an excuse. He's going to lose, but now he has something to blame it on.
I'm not sure McCain is that smart, but I'm not sure he's that stupid either. In any case, I'll be amazed if he wins.
Putting impartiality aside for a moment, I hope you're right. But I don't think at 72 McCain is intentionally playing any part of his campaign to lose.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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If I had to guess, I'd say he probably knew most of what is coming out. Either he's utterly feebleminded, or he knew it all and didn't care. I think the latter is plausible. He didn't care because so long as he can sell his "Maverick" credentials, then the more and more that comes out about Palin's ultra-social conservative views the better. He can go after independents while she sates the hardcore Right (which only improves the comparisons to the last season of the West Wing, creepily enough, actually, BOTH VP picks do that. Biden is Leo).
Still, if he did know, he's playing it all wrong in the press. A new story is coming out every day about Palin. Pregnant daughter, ultra-conservative social views, tried to ban books, claims she's against ear marks but has lobbied hard to secure them for her city and then her state, culminating in the bridge fiasco and who knows what else is to come. If McCain knew about everything, he's doing a horrible job of spinning it. If he didn't, then he did a horrible job of vetting her.
I agree with a lot of the pundits who say that at the end of the day, people vote top of the ticket. I think that maybe though, this election will be an exception with McCain's age and health a major concern for a lot of people. Few are afraid that Biden will have to take over, but know that he could if he had to. But some are concerned that Palin really could take over. I think that'll probably increase support in a few states that Obama was challenging that usually he wouldn't have a chance in. States like Georgia, North Carolina, Montana, Colorado, New Mexico, and Virginia. If it comes down to a few thousand votes or a couple percent points, she might be able to keep them on the Red side of things. But I think she'll spook moderates and independents all over the board. She was McCain's attempt to combat the overwhelming turnout/enthusiasm advantage that Obama has right now. The election is still 60 days away, and regardless of all this theorizing, I still think the debates are going to really decide this thing.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: "I do think she should be asked if, given what happened, she would have preferred that her daughter was taught how to use birth control and that it was readily available for her" seems to imply that nobody taught her daughter to use birth control and/or that it wasn't readily available to her daughter.
These things may be true. I think the point of ever bringing this up would be to ask, "is it better to tell your kids to not have sex, period (avoiding all discussion of protection), or is it better to reasonably suggest that they not have sex, explain the consequences, and then explain methods of protection carefully and thoroughly."
The biggest problem with "abstinence only" education is, at least to me, that it is unreasonable to suggest that a majority of young people (age 17-20, say), are going to abstain from sex completely. I don't even think they should abstain, and I think approaching that group with an attitude of "no sex till marriage" is going to be a losing battle until the end of time.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I think the rub might come in having that same discussion with 13-15 year olds. Unless you live in a hole, by the time you're in college, I can't imagine you haven't figured a lot of that stuff out. Health class in junior high and high school never talked about protection methods. I found out through pop culture, friends, and the internet. I have no idea how able the parents of kids who want to shield their kids are at blocking their access to the outside world, but by the time they hit the 17-20 range, I think the cat is out of the bag, and I think that at that age, you're a lot more responsible for your own actions. Actually by 20 you really should be solely responsible for your own actions.
I think the rub is more of the 13-15 age range. I think it's extremely reasonable to expect that kids in that age range abstain from sex totally, and I think you get a lot of opposition to teaching comprehensive sex ed at that age because they feel like it's introducing something far beyond their years into their orbit where it shouldn't be.
It's not a black and white issue, and while I personally support a more comprehensive sex education, I realize there are a lot of degrees within in the conversation.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote: Personally, I was having sex at that age so I wouldn't be very comfortable saying jack about it. Just sayin.
Were you using reliable birth control?
Depends on how reliable condoms are. I thought those annual birth control specials in the teen magazines gave them a failure rate of about 12%, but I've heard other people dispute that.
Fortunately, after the first couple months my periods got so bad that I had to go on the Pill anyway. Not only have I not gotten pregnant in 12 years, but I feel much better now.
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: I read a comment on a blog that said McCain must have chosen Palin as an excuse. He's going to lose, but now he has something to blame it on.
I'm not sure McCain is that smart, but I'm not sure he's that stupid either. In any case, I'll be amazed if he wins.
Actually, while I was never going to vote for Obama, I wasn't planning on voting for McCain, either. Now I think I am. I think you're very mistaken if you think this choice hasn't helped.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: Still, if he did know, he's playing it all wrong in the press. A new story is coming out every day about Palin. Pregnant daughter, ultra-conservative social views, tried to ban books, claims she's against ear marks but has lobbied hard to secure them for her city and then her state, culminating in the bridge fiasco and who knows what else is to come. If McCain knew about everything, he's doing a horrible job of spinning it. If he didn't, then he did a horrible job of vetting her.
If only the press could have done this much work this fast when Obama first started to run. Those liberal blogs, especially DailyKos are doing a tremendous amount of work uncovering or completely making up dirt about Palin. Too bad they were so silent on Obama and Biden.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God," she exhorted the congregants. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."
Ah cheery, so if McCain is Tigh, that would seem to make Palin, Roslin ... of course this being the Internet someone is already ahead of me. linkPosts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: What about her makes you want to vote for McCain?
Because out of the four folks running this fall (Obama, Biden, McCain, Palin), Sarah Palin is the one I'd choose to be president. McCain is old. If he makes it through his four years, it's unlikely he'll run again, and maybe Palin will. And then again, maybe McCain won't make it. Either way, it'll be a good thing.
She's a fiscal conservative. Okay, she's no Ron Paul, but she seems to have more common sense than the average run of Washington bozo.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: Are you implying that Obama's children are pregnant?
No, but we should do a complete and thorough investigation of them. Perhaps they are crayon stealers or even worse! What kind of grades are they getting? Maybe they are too talkative in their classes which would surely impact Obama's ability to be President.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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