quote:Originally posted by Armoth: ... While I choose to live in America, the option of living in Israel makes me feel safe.
Ah, this must be some new use of the word "safe" that I'm unfamiliar with. Under the old one, living in a border-line war zone and being bombarded weekly if not daily, is not quite "safe."
Have you been to Israel? It is not a border-line war zone, even if the media portrays it as such.
If you are a persecuted Jew living in France - you want to join your brethren in Israel where you can, at least, fight for your survival.
If I were living in the U.S. without the existence of an Israeli state, anti-semitism in America would be a whole lot scarier to me.
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: "If the entire Muslim world decided to move to the U.S. and exercise voting rights - it'd be a bit of a problem."
It would only be a problem if Muslims didn't follow the laws to become citizens. However, there is nothing in the U.S. laws that would keep them from voting; even if that meant voting the Constitution out of existence.
Which is why, I'm sure, that if that happened, something would be done to stop it.
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posted
". . . anti-semitism in America would be a whole lot scarier to me."
Are you serious? You are a protected minority. So much breath against Jews in the United States and there is so much vitriol against you that you might as well be branded a child-molester. True, it does depend on where you live; such as the Southern United States. Try living as a Mormon that has no land to go to (Utah and S. Idaho perhaps), no political correctness protection, and are hated by all sides.
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No, it isn't. It's an American state - it's not a theocracy. There is a Mormon majority in it, but there are no laws that expect the governor or key officials to be Mormon, and there are not laws that make it very difficult for non-Mormons to move there.
quote:Additionally, Israel has the right of return to make it easier for Jews to be citizens.
Not just easier. From what I read, it is almost impossible to become an Israeli citizen unless you are Jewish or married to someone who is.
Natural groupings of people are fine - expected, normal. It's the institutionalization that creates such discrimination.
If the entire Muslim world decided to move the U.S., they would not be stopped because of their religion. If they were, that'd be very wrong and someone is being corrupt somewhere. Within 50 years, there will no longer be a white majority in the United States. A few states - Texas among them - are already there or are almost there. The USA will do just fine.
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Armoth: *shrug* When was the last actual armed conflict? Lebanon? Gaza? How many years do you figure until the next one?
I suggest that living in America should be a whole lot scarier to you. An escape plan that involves fleeing into war zone to escape antisemitism in the form of signs painted on garages is like fleeing the gun crime in Toronto for the safe haven of Detroit.
No, it isn't. It's an American state - it's not a theocracy. There is a Mormon majority in it, but there are no laws that expect the governor or key officials to be Mormon, and there are not laws that make it very difficult for non-Mormons to move there.
I imagine-- because Armoth has said s/he doesn't want to discriminate-- that's the sort of thing s/he envisions for Israel.
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Is it? Because it seems like Israel is sitting on some ground that is deeply wanted by many people. While Utah is still majority Mormon, it's only stayed that way because non-Mormons aren't clamoring to move there.
Armoth, would you still want non-discrimination if it meant (and it would) that Jews would become a minority in Israel?
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: *shrug* When was the last actual armed conflict? Lebanon? Gaza? How many years do you figure until the next one?
I suggest that living in America should be a whole lot scarier to you. An escape plan that involves fleeing into war zone to escape antisemitism in the form of signs painted on garages is like fleeing the gun crime in Toronto for the safe haven of Detroit.
Wow. I'm glad we are having this conversation. Before sitting down to have it, I had a feeling I would be understood immediately upon explaining myself. I realize now that we are coming from really different perspectives.
First - I will point out that I felt your characterization of the garage incident to be a bit insensitive. It was really scary for me. You always grow up feeling like you are an American, like you vote the same way and have the same input as the rest of the nation. That incident made me feel rejected - it made me question that. I answered the question relatively quickly for myself, but it isn't the same once you are forced to ask yourself if you are truly wanted.
My point isn't that I needed an escape plan from graffiti. That's not fair. My point is that I would be paranoid and worried that the U.S. might turn into France and that more serious vandalism, synagogue burnings,and murders are up next. And that even though I am protected by U.S. law, U.S. law is created by the majority opinion of its citizens. And if the majority of citizens in the U.S. decided not to like Jews, then that'd be it for me.
The existence of Israel at least allows me the opportunity to join my fellow Jews in a productive fight for our survival. Yes, there are wars. But we have been minorities amongst Christian or Muslim dominate countries for 2000 years. And we were almost wiped out.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Lisa, please don't accuse other members of murder.
Oh. Gee. I guess I missed the part where I did that. Maybe you should quote it if you think I did.
I quoted it before but since you can't remember what you posted let alone what other's have posted, here it is again.
quote:Rabbit . . . Yes, it's worthwhile to point out that since you and your coreligionists have made Jew-killing a sport for the past 17 centuries, it's unreasonable for us to be completely at your whim. In all honesty, we have no idea when you're going to revert to that sort of behavior again.
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Is it? Because it seems like Israel is sitting on some ground that is deeply wanted by many people. While Utah is still majority Mormon, it's only stayed that way because non-Mormons aren't clamoring to move there.
Armoth, would you still want non-discrimination if it meant (and it would) that Jews would become a minority in Israel?
I don't know why you say it would? As I said, I don't know how to deal with Palestinians. You can't give citizenship to people who view you as the enemy.
Would you be okay with millions of Muslims moving to the U.S., getting naturalized and undoing the bill of rights? I wouldn't be. We, the majority in the country at the time, would do our best to preserve the ideals we believe in. As such, if the people moving here did not believe in the separation of Church and State, in the Bill of Rights, in our constitution - then we would do something to prevent them from coming.
Same thing in Israel. If a majority wanted to move to Israel and did not believe in Israel functioning as a Jewish state, I would have a problem with that.
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posted
When you say Jewish state, you mean legally, right? As in, written into its constitution and guiding its legal system and everything? You don't mean Jewish state the way Utah is a Mormon state.
In that case, you do support discrimination. You would allow non-Jews in if they act like Jews. That's not actually non-discrimination.
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quote:No, it isn't. It's an American state - it's not a theocracy. There is a Mormon majority in it, but there are no laws that expect the governor or key officials to be Mormon, and there are not laws that make it very difficult for non-Mormons to move there.
In fact there are no laws which distinguish between Mormons and non-Mormons in any way. People are not required to declare whether or not they are Mormon. There are no laws that prohibit or restrict peoples citizenship, voting rights, free speech, military service, or any civil right, privilege or responsibility based on their religious or ethnic affiliation. There is no government aid given to Mormons that is not given to non-Mormons. If there was an attempt to restrict a non-Mormon church from building a school or place of worship through zoning laws or other wise -- it would be struck down by the courts. In the last 50 years I know of no cases where hard core LDS people have protested another church's presence or activities in Utah. I know of no cases where a political entity has requested any religion not to proselyte, worship or freely practice their religion in Utah.
And I say that as a person who thinks that Mormon's have too much politcal power in Utah and that the state would be far more livable if their were more diversity in Utah politics.
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posted
"Would you be okay with millions of Muslims moving to the U.S., getting naturalized and undoing the bill of rights?"
I wouldn't be ok with it, but as the U.S. laws currently stand there isn't much I could do about it. That is especially the case when it comes to the U.S. as a Constitutional and not a Mobocratic Democracy. In fact, it is the very possibility that you bring up that the whole illegal alien battles are all about. So far the only thing that has changed is, well, not much. Then again, I believe that the U.S. Constitution has within it the ability for the citizenship if it so wishes to legally abandon the whole thing.
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posted
Jewish State in the sense that if facilitates a Jewish lifestyle. Jewish calendar, Jewish holidays, preservation and protection of Jewish tradition, etc.
I am a fan of public sensitivity to Jewish tradition as well - no bread on Passover sold publicly, no television on the high holy days, and I am anti the gay parade taking place in Jerusalem.
That is certainly discriminatory - it's a Jewish calendar but not a Christian one. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.
I don't think non-Jews need to act like Jews, they only need respect the Jewish character of the state.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: My religion is less than 200 years old and in that time my co-religionists have never supported the killing of Jews.
Wait, Mormons aren't Christians now?
It depends on how you define Christian. We worship Jesus Christ and consider ourselves part of the religious tradition Jesus established. We also believe that Christian's apostatized from the teaching of Jesus somewhere around the first century AD. We consider all the people who were persecuting Jews, fighting in Crusades, leading Inquisitions, writing creeds, burning heretics, apostates from true Christianity. They are not our co-religionists any more than my Jewish friend who converted to Mormonism is Lisa's co-religionist.
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posted
Would you have a problem if Blue Laws were reenacted in the US?
If so, could you explain how the enforcement of Sunday as a holy day in America is different from the enforcement of Saturday in Israel?
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quote:No, it isn't. It's an American state - it's not a theocracy. There is a Mormon majority in it, but there are no laws that expect the governor or key officials to be Mormon, and there are not laws that make it very difficult for non-Mormons to move there.
In fact there are no laws which distinguish between Mormons and non-Mormons in any way. People are not required to declare whether or not they are Mormon. There are no laws that prohibit or restrict peoples citizenship, voting rights, free speech, military service, or any civil right, privilege or responsibility based on their religious or ethnic affiliation. There is no government aid given to Mormons that is not given to non-Mormons. If there was an attempt to restrict a non-Mormon church from building a school or place of worship through zoning laws or other wise -- it would be struck down by the courts. In the last 50 years I know of no cases where hard core LDS people have protested another church's presence or activities in Utah. I know of no cases where a political entity has requested any religion not to proselyte, worship or freely practice their religion in Utah.
And I say that as a person who thinks that Mormon's have too much politcal power in Utah and that the state would be far more livable if their were more diversity in Utah politics.
I'm glad. That makes me happy - and it is entirely consistent with everything I believe as an American.
But that isn't what I want for the state of Israel.
It seems we are arguing over whether it is okay for there to be a country that governs in a way that is different than the U.S. governs. I think that the U.S. should be governed as it is. I think Israel should be governed in a different way. I also think any Muslim country should be governed as I think Israel should be governed - religious freedom, but with religious preference.
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posted
There the question rears its head again. Is Israel a Jewish State or is it a state with lots of Jews? And again, you make the claims that it is both, depending on where you want to argue from. That bothers me because it makes it difficult to know what "Israel" I am supporting.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: The more Lisa talks, the more I'm convinced that she is hellbent on making Israel appear as loony, racist, and tyrranical as possible.
quote:Originally posted by katharina: The more Lisa talks, the more I'm convinced that she is hellbent on making Israel appear as loony, racist, and tyrranical as possible.
DNFTT.
PBBBT!
Hey, you make your rasberries, and I'll make mine.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I respect her wish not to make that clear.
Kate, give me a freaking break. That is NOT what I said.
And the way you and Katie and Rabbit are reacting surely does not make me want to get remotely involved with this. To be clear: I do not support the changes Lisa is suggesting. I have made that clear several times in the past, and would hope that I would not have to again. Why on earth should I put in the time and energy to do so when it is clear I will not be given the benfit of the doubt and y'all are invested in seeing these issues in the worst possible light?
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I am starting to understand that the statement "Israel has a right to exist" has the unspoken addendum of "as a discriminatory theocracy."
ok. You're not listening to me.
And now you're starting to understand her.
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: My problem is that Israel doesn't know what it wants to be as a poster said above. No matter what those say who disagree with Lisa, her explanations are closest to the reality of Israel as seen by an outsider. Even one like me who is in support. It infuriates me that Israel so much wants to have its cake and eat it too so far as religious freedom. When it is described as a democracy I have a big question mark above that.
You're exactly right. Jewish State and Democracy can have areas of intersection, but they can't be completely congruent. The question is, which one takes precedent? The last politician in Israel to raise the issue was banned from running for parliament because of it.
For my part, it's clear. Israel is first and foremost a Jewish state. Within that, it's a democracy.
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: This does bring up a question that hasn't been answered, or I missed it. Is proselyting illegal in Israel?
Offering monetary or other considerations to try and get someone to convert to another religion is illegal. Unfortunately, even this is rarely enforced.
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quote:It seems we are arguing over whether it is okay for there to be a country that governs in a way that is different than the U.S. governs.
No the argument is much more specific than that. The argument is whether it is OK for a government to make legal distinctions based on peoples religion and ethnicity. And my belief is that this is not OK, that it does and always will lead to oppression of some group.
I think that Jews who have been on the losing end of that kind of laws for centuries would understand that. In fact, in the time I spent in Israel (an here in the US) I have known many Jews who did deeply understand that problem. This is why I had hoped that Israel could be an exception to this rule. I had hoped that Jews had enough empathy for oppressed people that they could avoid oppressing even in a country in which they had the power to oppress non-Jews. My observation and studies over the past 20 years have disillusioned me of that hope.
I think that you and others here are two emotional attached to Israel to see what the country has become and what it is doing.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: ... While I choose to live in America, the option of living in Israel makes me feel safe.
Ah, this must be some new use of the word "safe" that I'm unfamiliar with. Under the old one, living in a border-line war zone and being bombarded weekly if not daily, is not quite "safe."
Everything's relative. I had a friend whose 6 year old daughter used to walk out of the house and down the block to the bus stop and get on a public bus. This isn't a cause for concern in Israel. When Tova was born, I remember we used to go to stores, and because aisles are a lot narrower in Israel than they are here, it was just too much of a pain to bring her in her stroller up and down the aisles. So we parked her in her stroller at the front of the store and went shopping. Again, most Americans probably don't even remember what it's like to be able to do that. When we came back to the US, I was petrified. We thought about getting one of those obnoxious harnesses with a leash for when she started walking around, and when we go to a department store and she's out of our sight for even a minute (and she's 9 now), we freak.
And you guys take this all for granted.
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: ". . . anti-semitism in America would be a whole lot scarier to me."
Are you serious? You are a protected minority. So much breath against Jews in the United States and there is so much vitriol against you that you might as well be branded a child-molester. True, it does depend on where you live; such as the Southern United States. Try living as a Mormon that has no land to go to (Utah and S. Idaho perhaps), no political correctness protection, and are hated by all sides.
There'll be a backlash. There always is. You should look around the internet. A lot of people blame the financial crisis on Jews, as Jews. Because of people like Madoff, Greenspan, Bernanke...
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: My religion is less than 200 years old and in that time my co-religionists have never supported the killing of Jews.
Wait, Mormons aren't Christians now?
It depends on how you define Christian. We worship Jesus Christ and consider ourselves part of the religious tradition Jesus established. We also believe that Christian's apostatized from the teaching of Jesus somewhere around the first century AD. We consider all the people who were persecuting Jews, fighting in Crusades, leading Inquisitions, writing creeds, burning heretics, apostates from true Christianity. They are not our co-religionists any more than my Jewish friend who converted to Mormonism is Lisa's co-religionist.
Sorry if that distinction doesn't really mean that much to us.
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posted
Thank you Lisa, and the distinction between athiest Jews and Mormon Jews means very little to me.
Either way, neither I nor those who share my religious beliefs have ever been involved in killing Jews for sport. That accusatio was utterly out of line.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
Am I the only person here baffled by what seems like the intention here by people that A) Democracy is automatically best, B) Multuculturalism is automatically best? not everyone can be like Canada, if Japan wants to stay like a Japanese country and restrict immigration wouldn't they have the right to do so? Whats different with Israel? They're a SOVEREIGN nation and in international politics Sovereignty is the highest form of "Rights" and is that, Sovereignty. There's limits but only so much if they signed the UN Charter of Human Rights.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I respect her wish not to make that clear.
Kate, give me a freaking break. That is NOT what I said.
And the way you and Katie and Rabbit are reacting surely does not make me want to get remotely involved with this. To be clear: I do not support the changes Lisa is suggesting. I have made that clear several times in the past, and would hope that I would not have to again. Why on earth should I put in the time and energy to do so when it is clear I will not be given the benfit of the doubt and y'all are invested in seeing these issues in the worst possible light?
If you "have no interest in doing that sort of unraveling" which would clarify which parts of Lisa's idea of what God wants Israel to be "[you]disagree strongly with, which [you] sort of agree with but with caveats, which [you] don't even understand where she gets them from, and which [you] actually agree with completely" you are under no obligation to do so. I respect that. That was all I was saying. If you don't want to do that clarification, though, it is not going to be clear. I am not going to assume one way or another.
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quote:We thought about getting one of those obnoxious harnesses with a leash for when she started walking around, and when we go to a department store and she's out of our sight for even a minute (and she's 9 now), we freak.
Why? What about moving to America made you overprotective?
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I respect her wish not to make that clear.
Kate, give me a freaking break. That is NOT what I said.
And the way you and Katie and Rabbit are reacting surely does not make me want to get remotely involved with this. To be clear: I do not support the changes Lisa is suggesting. I have made that clear several times in the past, and would hope that I would not have to again. Why on earth should I put in the time and energy to do so when it is clear I will not be given the benfit of the doubt and y'all are invested in seeing these issues in the worst possible light?
I'm sorry it the way I am reacting is making you wish to avoid participation. I respect your views and know that you do not support many of the thinks Lisa supports.
As for why you might want to participate, I don't know. If I were Jewish, I would want to participate to make it clear that Lisa does not represent me or my people.
For some time, I was of the opinion that Lisa was actually some sort of anti-semite impersonating an obnoxious spiteful Lesbian Jew in order to provoke anti-semitic feelings. I doubt anyone could keep up the act as long as she has so I am now convinced she is for real. But she certainly does a good job of stirring up anti-Jewish, anti-Israel feeling in people. If I were Jewish, I would be very interested in countering that.
Luckily I do know many other Jews both IRL and here at Hatrack so I know that Lisa is not representative of the majority of Jews. I hope others who interact with her do as well. Thank you for participating rivka, I'm sorry if my tone has turned you away from participation, I am always open to listen to what you have to say.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:if Japan wants to stay like a Japanese country and restrict immigration wouldn't they have the right to do so?
Sure, they'd have the legal right. I'd argue that they would not have the moral right, and in so trying would reveal themselves to be a corrupt state.
Ethnic divisions are an evil.
So your saying Japan is evil and corrupt?
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... It depends on how you define Christian. We worship Jesus Christ and consider ourselves part of the religious tradition Jesus ...
You do realize that in context, Lisa would hardly have used the Mormon definition for Christian.
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: ... First - I will point out that I felt your characterization of the garage incident to be a bit insensitive...
I'm not sure why it would be insensitive. It should be scary. That things in Israel are more scary doesn't contradict that.
quote: My point isn't that I needed an escape plan from graffiti. That's not fair. My point is that I would be paranoid and worried that the U.S. might turn into France and that more serious ...
This is true. However, I believe that you're assuming that if things get dangerous in the US that somehow things will remain exactly as safe as it is in Israel now. I believe that this is most likely false. The level in danger in Israel should go up *even more* if things get that bad in the States.
quote:The existence of Israel at least allows me the opportunity to join my fellow Jews in a productive fight for our survival.
Sure. I get that it might make you feel better. But I just don't think that it is productive in terms of actually making you any safer.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Jewish State in the sense that if facilitates a Jewish lifestyle. Jewish calendar, Jewish holidays, preservation and protection of Jewish tradition, etc.
I am a fan of public sensitivity to Jewish tradition as well - no bread on Passover sold publicly, no television on the high holy days, and I am anti the gay parade taking place in Jerusalem.
That is certainly discriminatory - it's a Jewish calendar but not a Christian one. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.
I don't think non-Jews need to act like Jews, they only need respect the Jewish character of the state.
Actually I wouldn't consider most of that discriminatory. Having Jewish calender and holidays makes sense in any area that has a significant percentage of Jews because it facilitates Jews keeping their traditions.
I would be opposed to laws that prohibited stores from selling bread during Passover or prohibited television and radio from broadcasting during high holy days as such laws would be coercive. In the same sense, I would oppose laws that would prevent restaurants in predominantly catholic countries from serving meat on Friday's during lent and oppose laws that unduly restrict the sale of alcohol in Utah.
I have no problem with businesses that choose to respect a religious traditions and in a country with a large proportion of Jews I would expect there to be many such businesses. But I have a big problem with laws that require businesses and individuals to adhere to a religious tradition, that violates something I consider to be a fundamental human right.
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quote:The argument is whether it is OK for a government to make legal distinctions based on peoples religion and ethnicity.
Exactly. That kind of discrimination is always wrong, and it seems like Israel justifies its present discrimination from being victims of discrimination in the past. That's a flawed argument.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Ah, this must be some new use of the word "safe" that I'm unfamiliar with. Under the old one, living in a border-line war zone and being bombarded weekly if not daily, is not quite "safe."
... Again, most Americans probably don't even remember what it's like to be able to do that. When we came back to the US, I was petrified. ... And you guys take this all for granted.
I'm not American either I often feel petrified in the States as well Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:My point is that I would be paranoid and worried that the U.S. might turn into France and that more serious vandalism, synagogue burnings,and murders are up next. And that even though I am protected by U.S. law, U.S. law is created by the majority opinion of its citizens. And if the majority of citizens in the U.S. decided not to like Jews, then that'd be it for me.
What you are talking about is an emotion. How far do you think a group of people should be willing to go to escape fear? When is it okay to do harmful things to others to make yourself less afraid?
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quote:quote: Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... It depends on how you define Christian. We worship Jesus Christ and consider ourselves part of the religious tradition Jesus ... You do realize that in context, Lisa would hardly have used the Mormon definition for Christian.
You do recognize that doesn't make being directly accused of supporting murder for sport or of sharing the beliefs of those who support murder for sport any more palatable?
I do not consider myself affiliated in anyway with any individual or group who has ever supported killing Jews or any other human being for sport. I am offended by the accusation that I am. Would you not also take offense at such an accusation?
Was it that unreasonable for me to clarify that I do not consider myself a part of any religious tradition that has ever justified killing people for sport?
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ... I do not consider myself affiliated in anyway with any individual or group who has ever supported killing Jews or any other human being for sport. I am offended by the accusation that I am. Would you not also take offense at such an accusation?
No. I would apologize and move on. I would not deny it and split hairs that are of no relevance to the person at hand.
For example, as a Canadian we're responsible for killing off most of the native Americans. If I was talking to a native American, I would not quibble and mention that as a Chinese Canadian we wouldn't even have gotten there yet at the time of the killings.
If you want to be Canadian/Christian/whatever, you have to be prepared to accept the whole responsibility and benefits of that. You can't just cherry-pick and say that you're Christian when it is of benefit and then immediately disavow it when it is not.
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quote:We thought about getting one of those obnoxious harnesses with a leash for when she started walking around, and when we go to a department store and she's out of our sight for even a minute (and she's 9 now), we freak.
Why? What about moving to America made you overprotective?
They steal kids here. I don't know if you're aware of that. Dangerous place, America. And believe me, I'm not being tongue-in-cheek.
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posted
Oddly enough, the one person I know personally who was kidnapped (and, I presume, killed) was kidnapped in Israel.
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