quote:Originally posted by Szymon: Samprimary: I explained in the next post
You explained that you thought you could understand it if he was a serious threat. Obviously, you don't think he was a serious threat, so we're still at the question. I'm still asking you why you think it's disgusting to rejoice in his death.
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posted
I also think that, when the pictures are released (and I think that they must be released and soon) that they should be as "respectful" as they can be while still being an accurate record and proof of exactly what happened.
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posted
I'm anti-capital punishment, but I think this was a devil and deep blue sea situation.
If Bin Laden had been captured alive and held in prison, there would have been kidnappings and hijackings continually to have him released. He would have been considered a political prisoner by some, and considering the reputation that US prisons now have internationally, there would have been trouble.
And, if humane treatment was an aim, how would they have found guards prepared to look after him? What security would that prison have needed?
No. There wasn't another option.
Now, in the case of the Nato caused deaths of three of Gaddafi's very young grandchilden (if proven), while he escaped, I think you could validly argue that that attack was shoddy and possibly unnecessary.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I'm very glad this is the internet and not in person, because I would have a very hard time not punching you in the face for saying this to me.
Charming. How old are you?
This is about the fifth time in the last month that you have made it clear that before you post things on Hatrack, you make little or no effort to check them for rationality or to do any real research. I'm impressed that this time (as has been true about half the time, I believe) you allowed yourself to be convinced.
But your overall attitude has not changed. And I notice that you have no calm, rational response to me. Just a threat.
quote:I'm anti-capital punishment, but I think this was a devil and deep blue sea situation.
I agree. Bin Laden, when we found him, had to die. I'm uncomfortable with the thought, though, that we almost certainly assassinated him -- as in, we had no intention of capturing him alive at all. But then I'm not really sure, on sober reflection, how I feel about assassination.
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quote:If Bin Laden had been captured alive and held in prison, there would have been kidnappings and hijackings continually to have him released. He would have been considered a political prisoner by some, and considering the reputation that US prisons now have internationally, there would have been trouble.
I don't believe this. I'm pretty sure they would have taken him alive if they could have, and it would have been better overall for us if they could have.
Of course, seeing as how they had literal human shields (some children) at the mansion, it doesn't seem like this was an option they wanted to leave themselves.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: GOP figures respond to killing of Osama bin Laden. Mostly congratulations to our soldiers and war fighters, as expected. Some congratulations and appreciation of Obama himself.
I thought Dick Cheney's response, quoted in this article, was particularly gracious:
quote:I also want to congratulate President Obama and the members of his national security team. At this moment when bin Laden has been brought to justice, we especially remember the sacrifice of the young Americans who’ve paid the ultimate price in defense of the nation, as well as the nearly 3000 Americans who lost their lives on 9/11.
All in all, the Republican leaders quoted have expressed nothing but admiriation and gratitude for a job well done, mostly to the servicemen and women, but also to the President.
<edit>I haven't seen a response from Trump yet, but I imagine if anyone's willing to make a bombastic statement about how this proves the President is doing a terrible job, it'll be Trump. I also haven't seen anything from the nattering class; it could be Andrew Breitbart et al. are writing all sorts of shallow analyses of how this is no big deal. But the leadership response thus far has been dramatically different from the crass and callous responses that Lyrhawn had been expecting.</edit>
To soon to count the eggs before they hatch just give it time; this is genuinely surprising in a good way and thus far happy for the change in pace but I don't expect it to last that long.
In othernews I'm skeptical that it would've been possible to capture Bin Laden, he strikes me as the sort of person to off himself rather than be captured.
It is sometimes better to die than to be killed.
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I think taking him alive would be more trouble than he was worth, can you imagine what a violent religous zealot would do if his prophet were imprisoned on American soil and multiply by however many of them you think there are.
Additionally I believe that to be the thinking behind disposing the body in the ocean, no fuss no muss about the actual corpse.
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quote:If Bin Laden had been captured alive and held in prison, there would have been kidnappings and hijackings continually to have him released. He would have been considered a political prisoner by some, and considering the reputation that US prisons now have internationally, there would have been trouble.
I don't believe this. I'm pretty sure they would have taken him alive if they could have, and it would have been better overall for us if they could have.
Of course, seeing as how they had literal human shields (some children) at the mansion, it doesn't seem like this was an option they wanted to leave themselves.
I agree. It was in the US's interests to capture bin Laden a la KSM, pulling him out in the middle of the night wearing a wife-beater, and sear that image of him into the public imagination, rather than the bearded, cloaked, rebel image from his videos. I think it's unfortunate, from a national security standpoint, that he chose not to surrender when given the chance and that special forces were unable to take him alive.
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posted
Samprimary, do you really not think there'd be frequent kidnappings and assassinations if ObL were taken alive?
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: ... can you imagine what a violent religous zealot would do if his prophet were imprisoned on American soil ...
About the same as if his prophet were martyred? Maybe even less?
I'm going to emphasize that I'm not drawing any equivalence, but just musing on political ramifications. But it's worth thinking about if the Jesus story was more inspiring to the subsequent Christian martyrs with it ending with him being martyred on a cross or if it had just ended with him dying in of old age in some prison.
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quote:I'm anti-capital punishment, but I think this was a devil and deep blue sea situation.
I agree. Bin Laden, when we found him, had to die. I'm uncomfortable with the thought, though, that we almost certainly assassinated him -- as in, we had no intention of capturing him alive at all. But then I'm not really sure, on sober reflection, how I feel about assassination.
Based on the descriptions of the compound, and that a firefight was involved as well as a human shield, I find it equally likely that Bin Laden picked up a gun in his own defense and was firing at the SEALs. In that sort of situation the only rational thing to do is to shoot and shoot to kill. I would not be willing to condone one service man dying because they were trying to capture him rather than kill him.
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posted
I'm glad it went down the way it did--the kill confirmed, and the body buried irretrievably at sea within the limits of Muslim custom. I am sorry about those I've heard of that also died in the process, including the woman bin Laden was using as a human shield. I can't see this being much more than a symbolic victory, however, like Saddam Hussein's capture. I don't like seeing all the celebration over his death. While I am not opposed to pro-American displays I don't think this is dignified and it won't do any good for improving relations with anyone.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Samprimary, do you really not think there'd be frequent kidnappings and assassinations if ObL were taken alive?
You're going to have an excuse for those either way. It's easier when they can say that he has been assassinated or murdered and is therefore a martyr. It's harder when he's being given a trial and people are having trouble figuring out whether to or how to categorize him as a 'political prisoner' when he did pretty plainly organize a brutal attack on civilian targets on american soil which he then took credit for.
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posted
My thanks to Rappin' Ronnie Reagan, fugu13, MattP, Kwea, Xavier for good info and moral support.
To rivka, your post was not anything but a hurtful stab, using the well being of my children as the blade.
And for the record, I said I was thankful that the format of our exchange stopped me from venting my (completely appropriate) anger on your face. It was not a threat.
As to me not doing enough research, I've already addressed that fault, and will do my bestest to do better.
As to "little or no effort to check them for rationality" I don't even know where to start. If I had no interest in having my ideas challenged or to refining/changing how I think, I would have posted a blog and not on a discussion board.
quote:These pictures of those people laughing and cheering and drinking and singing looked a lot like those of the terrorists in 2001. That's all.
There is no comparison that is fair. We may never know for sure (I tried to find out through research, but was unable to find anything) if bin Laden was killed while resisting arrest or killed outright. If assassinated, it would still fall under the label of "brought to justice" as our government authorized his procurement "dead or alive".
Of course I would like to think we were trying to grab him and his violence was the determining factor in his demise, but either way, the celebration of his being brought to justice is simply not in the same realm as the murder of innocents.
Would those parties still be going if he had been captured instead of killed? In all likelihood, yes. Is it justice or death that is being celebrated here?
In all the footage I've seen, all people are doing is being happy and dancing and waving US flags, there is no burning of effigies or signs reading "Yay, he's dead!"...although I might have missed them.
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quote:And for the record, I said I was thankful that the format of our exchange stopped me from venting my (completely appropriate) anger on your face. It was not a threat.
Wow. I was going to defend you, but I think I'll just let you keep digging for a while, now. Don't be an idiot.
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posted
I think the only difference would be that if someone used Bin Laden's release from imprisonment as their public motivation for a series of attacks in the US or abroad, eventually - if things got really bad somehow - there might be internal and external pressure on the US government to release him. Which would obviously be impossible. But the political gameplaying could be destructive.
If at some future point, it looked like peace was endangered by Bin Laden's continued imprisonment, he might have one day got out. Look at all the 'political prisoners' who had to be let out in the Northern Ireland peace process (and some of the things they had done). Look at the compromises Israel sometimes has to make with their prisoners. The possibility would always have been there.
Now that he's dead, there's nothing to be done. The problem is off the government's hands.
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Let me clarify...I feel my anger is appropriate at the inflammatory statements...
Me physically harming rivka would be inappropriate, thus, I am thankful I lacked the opportunity when I had the urge.
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posted
President Obama said that he gave the order for Osama bin Laden to be killed, not captured. After the awakening he has had over the detainees at Guatanamo, he evidently realized the undesirability of bringing bin Laden back to America to stand trial in the same criminal justice system that let O.J. Simpson get away with murder.
He also directed that bin Laden's body be disposed of at sea, so there would be no grave for his followers to gather around and give him honor, adding yet another pilgrim site for the jihadist "faithful" to visit.
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Using physical force because what somebody says hurts is a completely inappropriate way to respond to that feeling. Some part of you feels bad for having said it, but you are still smarting somewhat and allowing for those feelings by saying you are just grateful you weren't there to actually punch rivka in the face.
It's no different than, "You're lucky we're in church, otherwise I'd beat the snot out of you for that."
Your anger might have been justified or appropriate, and I do appreciate the effort you are making to adjust your views on 9/11, I've had to do similar things on other topics, but it does *not* justify your threatening another poster with physical violence, even if you are incapable of actually carrying it out. Don't do that.
---- Ron: I don't believe Pres. Obama said flat out, "Just kill him, we don't want him alive." Maybe he did, but I doubt he'd admit to it if he did. Also he was buried at sea according to officials because Muslims believe they should be buried within 24 hours, and it was considered too hard to find a country willing to host his remains.
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quote:Me physically harming rivka would be inappropriate, thus, I am thankful I lacked the opportunity when I had the urge.
The irony here is that you were criticized for being irrational, and responded with an irrational desire to strike another person. You then expressed thanks for being unable to act on that impulse, confirming that even you agree it was irrational.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It's no different than, "You're lucky we're in church, otherwise I'd beat the snot out of you for that."
It is different. He is saying that he is lucky because he knows that it would have been wrong to indulge that initial, violent response. That he indulged in even stating it was less than charming but so was the implication that he is a detriment to his children. ETA: What does Rivka's religion have to do with anything? If he had felt like punching a Catholic spinster or an atheist father would that have been less reprehensible?
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Really, I just hope Obama kept the spine and toes, so that he can wear them like a ceremonial headdress the next time we need the hoi polloi to dance on the White House lawn.
I don't know why, but this statement came across as kind of racist. I know it wasn't intentional though.
I'm pretty happy about how things went down. I'm not super happy that they released the information so quickly. Hear me out.
The location OBL was at had no telephone, no internet access, etc. The only contact he had was from two couriers that lived there with their families. I don't know how many AQ operatives or leaders knew where OBL was hiding at, but it was probably very few.
I'm not saying the American people don't have a right to know, I just think that the way they made the announcement and the ensuing celebrations will give members of radical groups more ammunition to use to recruit and justify their actions.
Had they killed OBL and kept it quiet for a few months they could have released the statement then. I don't think the American people would have made as big of a fuss at that point. I doubt the extremists would come out with a statement saying OBL was dead, as he was their figure head.
I do agree that a burial at sea was the best call they could have made. If he were buried anywhere else it would have become either a shrine or a place that was desecrated.
Kudos to Mr. Obama though for giving the order, and even more kudos to the intelligence community and the Navy Seals who carried out the mission. I know we will probably never know their names, but I hope they are rewarded appropriately.
Some credit should go to Bush as well. We may not have found OBL while Bush was President, but I am sure there were things Bush did that in the end helped our men and women find OBL.
posted
In Hatrack tradition this is being very well side-tracked and worse the farther the subject goes. Exactly how does a persons religion weigh in? hitting anyone out of anger is uncivilized and deplorable but why did you feel her theism to be a factor in why she shouldnt be attacked?
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quote:...I just think that the way they made the announcement and the ensuing celebrations will give members of radical groups more ammunition to use to recruit and justify their actions.
Changing our behavior to try and change how terrorists will react is a futile endeavor. Terrorists are not logical and reasonable. They will try and recruit anyone they can to kill us for who we are, not for anything we did to them. And anyone who is sitting on the fence about joining such a group and is pushed into their arms by Americans celebrating justice long delayed is likely to do so at any excuse.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I'm sorry if you felt threatened rivka, I in no way wish or intend you to feel that way.
I have trouble believing this. Especially since you live in fairly easy driving distance from me. I believe you didn't mean to actually threaten me; I don't believe you didn't mean for me to feel threatened.
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: you got what you seemingly wanted, me inflamed.
Nope. What I want is for you to think things over -- maybe even Google them a bit -- before posting.
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quote:hitting anyone out of anger is uncivilized and deplorable but why did you feel her theism to be a factor in why she shouldnt be attacked?
I deleted the post this is probably referencing (as several people had posted since I started writing it), so should probably answer this.
I don't think her religion is a factor, I was just trying to use it to get across just how silly I thought the idea of Stone punching her in the face (if he had the opportunity) was. He was threatening a screen name, while I was describing the person herself.
I've met rivka several times, and the thought of any young man (which I am guessing Stone is) in her presence striking her over some comment is honestly pretty laughable.
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posted
We put our flag out today, like we usually do on Memorial Day, the Fourth of July, etc. Seems like the thing to do.
Sam, I offer only contempt to your arrogant belief you are able to require anything of me. Pay attention to the TV screen, before you go on making a worse fool of yourself. You are to blame for your own ignorance.
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quote:I am relieved that your children have at least one parent who isn't bent on believing as many irrational things as possible.
Means
quote:...I want is for you to think things over -- maybe even Google them a bit -- before posting.
I am highly dubious.
quote:Especially since you live in fairly easy driving distance from me.
You are one up on me, as I have no idea where you live.
quote:I don't believe you didn't mean for me to feel threatened.
I'm sorry you feel this way, but I only felt thankful for not having the opportunity and thus not going to jail for doing something very hotheadedly stupid in moment of anger which I would have instantly regretted, not only for my own personal losses.
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quote:I'm sorry you feel this way, but I only felt thankful for not having the opportunity and thus not going to jail for doing something very hotheadedly stupid in moment of anger which I would have instantly regretted, not only for my own personal losses.
How many women have you punched in the face, Stone?
If you never have, why are you so sure you'd have made an exception in this case?
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quote:...I just think that the way they made the announcement and the ensuing celebrations will give members of radical groups more ammunition to use to recruit and justify their actions.
Changing our behavior to try and change how terrorists will react is a futile endeavor. Terrorists are not logical and reasonable. They will try and recruit anyone they can to kill us for who we are, not for anything we did to them. And anyone who is sitting on the fence about joining such a group and is pushed into their arms by Americans celebrating justice long delayed is likely to do so at any excuse.
You missed my point. My point was the timing in which we made the announcement and the ensuing celebrations practically begs extremist groups to release statements and make threats against us.
I just think that waiting a few weeks or months before releasing the statement would have been wiser. It would have removed some of the initial shock of "OMFG OBL died today w00t! Lets party!" and turned it into "OBL died a few months ago, go us, oooooh Game of Thrones is on!"
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posted
I have never intentionally hurt a female in my life. While I have put myself between harm's way and females who were complete strangers to me in the past.
Honestly, I had no idea the gender of the persona "rivka" at the time. While the "a" ending of the name suggests a female poster, I didn't have the same reaction to if she was standing before me, and thus if she actually was, I would never have popped her one in the kisser.
I have never actually started a fight in my life, although I have ended a couple.
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quote:You missed my point. My point was the timing in which we made the announcement and the ensuing celebrations practically begs extremist groups to release statements and make threats against us.
Respectfully, you missed my point...that no matter what we do, they will try and kill us, because of their unreasonable beliefs and not for anything we have actually done or not done.
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posted
I can just imagine the fury of the US population alone - not to mention that of the world in general - had we tried to keep something this critical a secret. Good heavens, we still do have allies against al Qaeda; they certainly have a right to know.
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posted
If we had kept it under wraps what would the conspiracy theorists have said? Forget not giving them the long form of birth for two years...we didn't tell anyone we killed bin Laden for a couple of months, buried him at sea, within 24 hours, what really happened here?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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The big questions--Pakistan. Were they a help or a feared hindrance? How much warning did we give them? How upset will they be?
Frankly, this would be like a military unit from Italy flying into the US to assassinate a mafia crime lord in Connecticut. We in the US would appreciate the removal of the trash, but what about our sovereignty?
Second big question--Revenge. My wife asked if this would be a good thing or a bad thing in the future. I said good, but that we might get a large number of incidents--suicide bombs, gun firing maniacs, etc--over then next few days, and a few major terrorist events over the next two years, in retaliation.
Mostly this will cut both Al-Queda recruitment (they no longer have a mythicaly immortal leader, nor living proof of US impotence.) and command structure. Perhaps even cut some of their funds--so it is a blow to Al-Queda. It is not the end of them.
Although I am hoping a major part of the maneuver was intelligence gathering from the computers, documents, and more in his office, and not just a quick wham-blam-sorry ma'am assassination.
I've heard it mentioned that the woman who died was being used as a shield. Here the assumption is that it was Osama that used her as the shield. Do we have proof of that?
Finally, on to kill or capture. I think the best solution would have been to capture and debunk him as a martyr--get him to break and show his human weaknesses. A drunk Osama would be much more destructive to Al-Queda than a dead Osama. However, since the brave and true people in the US couldn't even risk low level Al-Queda and Taliban soldiers going to trial on our precious soil lest suicide bombs fall like rain, I can picture the controversy of having this person being tried here.
To try, or to bury him in the US would meet further cries of outrage. The fears of it becoming target central for the Al-Queda folks would make any burial spot a political hot-potato. Doing it in another country runs the risk of turning that spot into a shrine for terrorists.
The best place for him is the sea. We respected Islam, and didn't give the terrorists a shrine. I think that is worth an increase in rumors of his non-death--rumors that would be made no matter where we buried him.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It's no different than, "You're lucky we're in church, otherwise I'd beat the snot out of you for that."
It is different. He is saying that he is lucky because he knows that it would have been wrong to indulge that initial, violent response. That he indulged in even stating it was less than charming but so was the implication that he is a detriment to his children. ETA: What does Rivka's religion have to do with anything? If he had felt like punching a Catholic spinster or an atheist father would that have been less reprehensible?
I'm not commenting on religion at all, merely that SW saying had he been within an arm's reach of rivka he would have punched her. To me that's the same thing as saying, "If we weren't in a place where I couldn't get away with punching you (like church) I would."
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posted
Sorry. I should have been clearer. Xavier commented on the badness of of hitting an Orthodox Jewish mother. That post has since been deleted.
ETA: And I still think that there is a difference between the two statements. Stone-Wolf was (basically) expressing anger in a foolish way while acknowledging that his impulse was a wrong one. Your church statement does not acknowledge the wrongness of the impulse and implies that, should they meet elsewhere, he would carry out that action.
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quote:The big questions--Pakistan. Were they a help or a feared hindrance? How much warning did we give them? How upset will they be?
The mansion was built post 9/11, with money that no one could have provided an explanation for. Eighteen foot tall security walls with barb-wire, and the compound did not have a phone-line or internet in a modern city. Pakistan can say what they want but when you know that the worlds most wanted man is most likely in your country and none of this raises alarms, and America finds him before you...
ETA Carol Costello on CNN keeps saying something to the tune of "On this day, even if only for one day, people across the county are united. It could last but atleast for one day..." I have heard her and her alone repeat this several times in the last hour or two. Such pessimism.
And now Fox news is insisting on the text "Usama Bin Laden" and an older man I didnt recognize said "Obama, sorry I meant Usama" at the end of his screen time. This is a new low.
quote:I have never intentionally hurt a female in my life. While I have put myself between harm's way and females who were complete strangers to me in the past.
Honestly, I had no idea the gender of the persona "rivka" at the time. While the "a" ending of the name suggests a female poster, I didn't have the same reaction to if she was standing before me, and thus if she actually was, I would never have popped her one in the kisser.
I think it is important that you stew over this a bit. You've never punched a woman in your life, but here in this thread you told one that it is only your "lack of opportunity" that stopped you from doing so.
The poster on the other end of the screen-name is a person. In this case, it was a person you knew very little about. Always consider that when formulating a response.
I think you had justification to be upset. You did not have a justification to bring violence towards another poster into the discussion.
Doing so just made you look like a complete tool. Responding with a calm and rational response would have given you a firm moral high-ground.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:The big questions--Pakistan. Were they a help or a feared hindrance? How much warning did we give them? How upset will they be?
The mansion was built post 9/11, with money that no one could have provided an explanation for. Eighteen foot tall security walls with barb-wire, and the compound did not have a phone-line or internet in a modern city. Pakistan can say what they want but when you know that the worlds most wanted man is most likely in your country and none of this raises alarms, and America finds him before you...
The compound was also just up the street from the largest training facility for the Pakistani Security Forces in the country. And within 100 miles of the Pakistani capital. If elements of the Pakistani government (and particularly the military hierarchy) didn't know who was living there, I'd be... well, not shocked but certainly surprised.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:I think you had justification to be upset. You did not have a justification to bring violence towards another poster into the discussion.
Agreed...apologies to rivka.
quote:Responding with a calm and rational response would have given you a firm moral high-ground.
It's not always about securing moral high ground. I can see that even mentioning a violent act was not a good thing, but please understand that I was trying to illustrate the extent to which I found her comments unacceptable, acknowledging even while doing it, that it was inappropriate.
I do my best to have an open mind about most anything, but I am not even a tiny bit open to the idea that I am bad for my kids in general terms.
I love my children more then I even knew was possible to love anything before I had them, and would do anything in the world for their benefit.
When a relative stranger impugns my influence on my babies based on their poor understanding of my opinion daddy bear gets a bit crazy.
I can demonstrate that I find this completely unacceptable without empty, distracting and ultimately self defeating references to physical violence.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Is it convenient that where you live is so unimportant to me as to be instantly forgotten if it happened to be mentioned in passing in a thread I happened to post in?
I have apologized multiple times to you for my part in this. You have yet to do any such thing and are posting little gems of hostility like the above.
You are dangerously close to being disregarded in my book as a hostile, unreasonable person whom I no longer wish to speak to.
Please let us move on now.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Sam, I offer only contempt to your arrogant belief you are able to require anything of me. Pay attention to the TV screen, before you go on making a worse fool of yourself. You are to blame for your own ignorance.
Ok, so I guess that means that the statement probably doesn't exist and you shouldn't be trusted when you make that statement.
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