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Author Topic: Confirmed: Bin Laden Dead
Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
... They will try and recruit anyone they can to kill us for who we are, not for anything we did to them.

Ah, the good old "they hate us for our freedoms" bit.
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Stone_Wolf_
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That's not entirely fair Mucus...

Are you suggesting that our celebrating of bringing bin Laden to justice is actual provocation for violent reprisals?

Why is it that you think that they hate us and wish to kill us?

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AchillesHeel
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And fox news is still airing the Usama text, and they wont say Osama just Bin Laden.

WHY?

ETA
And the blonde woman just called General Petraeus General Betrayus. How do they have a such a large fanbase?

[ May 02, 2011, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: AchillesHeel ]

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SenojRetep
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quote:
Originally posted by SenojRetep:
<edit>I haven't seen a response from Trump yet, but I imagine if anyone's willing to make a bombastic statement about how this proves the President is doing a terrible job, it'll be Trump. I also haven't seen anything from the nattering class; it could be Andrew Breitbart et al. are writing all sorts of shallow analyses of how this is no big deal. But the leadership response thus far has been dramatically different from the crass and callous responses that Lyrhawn had been expecting.</edit>

Here's Trump's statement to ABC news:
quote:
I want to personally congratulate President Obama and the men and women of the Armed Forces for a job well done... I am so proud to see Americans standing shoulder to shoulder, waving the American flag in celebration of this great victory... We should spend the next several days not debating party politics, but in remembrance of those who lost their lives on 9/11 and those currently fighting for our freedom. God Bless America.
This is two parts craven and one part classy, but still nothing like what Lyrhawn was predicting. The whole Republican field has really offered nothing but congratulations.

Now, I know from my Facebook feed that several rank and file Republicans have been complaining about Obama's use of the first person in his statement last night. Not enough attention given to the soldiers. I think that's sour grapes, and I imagine it's coming from some right-wing commentator somewhere (probably linked on Drudge). But even that is a far cry from what was being predicted. Indeed, the greatest amount of snark I see today is gloating over at Democratic Underground about how Obama just schooled Republicans in how to fight terrorists, and lots and lots of jokes about Trump wanting to see a "long-form death certificate."

But leadership on both sides have kept it pretty down-the-middle, with no real partisan jabs either way.

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Jhai
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This BBC article has some interesting details about the location of Osama's compound. I'm really looking forward to the Pakistani military's spin on this one.

Also, for the record, I (a) don't think that videos of Americans cheering is gonna be the straw that breaks the camel's back for radical Muslims and (b) don't believe that there would have been any less celebration if the word had been that Osama had been captured, not killed.

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Xavier
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To SenojRetep:

I think you might see some more of what Lyrhawn was predicting come election time, but I am very glad that you haven't found any yet.

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Parkour
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Where's the death certificate, Obama?
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Chris Bridges
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"And fox news is still airing the Usama text, and they wont say Osama just Bin Laden."

FOX has been fairly consistent, I believe, with using "Usama," which is one of the accepted spellings of his name in English. The FBI and CIA use Usama. AP and most news agencies use Osama.

Now, calling him "Usama bin Landon," as one FOX affiliate did last night, that would be wrong...

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The White Whale
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quote:
Pay attention to the TV screen, before you go on making a worse fool of yourself.
That's funny. I grew up with pretty much the opposite advice.
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The White Whale
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Obama bin Laden
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AchillesHeel
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Oh the class, the sweet unbiased and respectful class.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
... They will try and recruit anyone they can to kill us for who we are, not for anything we did to them.
OK, this is one of those learning moments, Stone_Wolf-a moment when people on Hatrack are going to ask you to consider whether something you believe really, really strongly might not be true even though you really, really think it is.

First of all, they're not going to try to recruit just anyone. They don't go door to door-they're not the Girl Scouts selling cookies. I think you'll find, if you do a little research, that they know who to recruit and usually it's people who already have a grievance with the West in general and the USA in particular before ever signing on with a terrorist group.

Right there, that tells you they don't hate us 'because of who we are'. Then the question becomes, what are their grievances? You're allowed to ask that question, you know-simply asking it doesn't actually cede anything to them. Acknowledging the possibility that there might be some wrongdoing on our part isn't some sort of betrayal. So let's start with one big one: the United States has a history of supporting dictatorial regimes throughout much of the Middle East that oppress their peoples, engendering hatred towards those regimes and their past supporters, the USA.

Pretty easy. That's a grievance right there. Not because of American Idol or the First Amendment or anything, though admittedly there are terrorists who really can't stand that stuff. But as a rallying cry for support, "Hey! Those Americans across the ocean! They have freedom of religion! GET `EM!" isn't exactly very compelling. Whereas on the other hand, "Do you hate the House of Saud? Then you should hate America!" is a pretty good rallying cry. Just as an example.

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kmbboots
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Having "Made in the USA" printed on the weapons and tear gas canisters used against people isn't terribly helpful either.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
If we had kept it under wraps what would the conspiracy theorists have said? Forget not giving them the long form of birth for two years...we didn't tell anyone we killed bin Laden for a couple of months, buried him at sea, within 24 hours, what really happened here?

Who cares what the conspiracy theorists would have said? They have plenty of fodder with his burial at sea anyways.

You are right in that they will hate us whether we released the information now or later. I never argued that. What I am arguing is that releasing the information now and showing all of this partying simply gives them more fodder for the extremists to say "Look at the evil Americans partying over the death of a man."

If it had been more of a "Meh" moment I think it would have been more effective.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
Oh the class, the sweet unbiased and respectful class.

Fairly uncharacteristic of NPR, I wonder if they have an auto spellchecker when they type up headlines and articles.
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kmbboots
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Geraine, how would you feel if you were one of our allies, fighting in Afghanistan, and this news was kept from you? An intelligence officer whose job it is to glean news of bin Laden? A voter who feels that the news was manipulated for political effect? Keeping it a secret was not an option.

That said, I do think that the gloating is at best unbecoming and at worst dangerous and probably both.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
I just think that waiting a few weeks or months before releasing the statement would have been wiser.

These days, I have to think that it would be leaked one way or another long before we reached weeks or months. Getting it out early at least allows the White House to control the release somewhat.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Rakeesh,

I stated that in the context of we should not hold back our info about something this momentous only to possibly stave off further terrorists attacks.

As to, "They don't go door to door-they're not the Girl Scouts selling cookies." I said they are going to recruit anyone they can, not attempt to recruit everyone.

You say:
quote:
I think you'll find, if you do a little research, that they know who to recruit and usually it's people who already have a grievance with the West in general and the USA in particular before ever signing on with a terrorist group.
I said:
quote:
And anyone who is sitting on the fence about joining such a group and is pushed into their arms by Americans celebrating justice long delayed is likely to do so at any excuse.
You say:
quote:
You're allowed to ask that question, you know-simply asking it doesn't actually cede anything to them. Acknowledging the possibility that there might be some wrongdoing on our part isn't some sort of betrayal.
I asked:
quote:
Why is it that you think that they hate us and wish to kill us?
You are responding to a quote of mine out of context.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
President Obama said that he gave the order for Osama bin Laden to be killed, not captured.

Transcript of Obama's statement to this effect is required.
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Sam, I offer only contempt to your arrogant belief you are able to require anything of me. Pay attention to the TV screen, before you go on making a worse fool of yourself. You are to blame for your own ignorance.

Okay, Ron. Let's talk ignorance.

Counter-Terrorism Chief John Brennan in a White House press conference: Operation was intended to take Osama prisoner if possible without risk to friendlies, otherwise killed.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/how-bin-laden-was-killed-by-navy-seals-050211

quote:
Brennan said U.S. forces would have taken bin Laden alive if "we had the opportunity," but Bin Laden engaged in the gunfire that led to his own death.
Now, I sure think that it would be all over the SCANDALWEBS right now if Obama had said "This was an operation to kill him." and then John Brennan contradicts him in a press conference.

Which is why you need to back yourself up, like you say you always do, and then inevitably fail to do when it's obvious that you're making stuff up.

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Ron Lambert
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Sam, I heard the same news conference, and you did not get the nuances right. Predictably, because you haven't shown yourself to be very discerning. For the benefit of anyone who may be interested in the fine points of the operation, the original plan with many contingencies worked out by President Obama and his advisors over the past weeks and months was premised on the idea that U.S. personnel were not to be exposed to any unnecessary danger. If in the unlikely event that an opportunity to take Osama bin Laden captive were presented (presumably such as if he surrended without resistance), then he could be captured alive. But if he resisted, then he was to be killed. No American lives were to be risked by making capture of bin Laden alive a priority. In fact bin Laden did take up a gun and is believed to have joined in the firefight.

The president and his advisors were following the 40-minute firefight "in real time," as stated today by one of the senior spokesmen. So when the point came that it was clear that bin Laden and his cohorts were resisting, President Obama--as he said in his speech last night--gave explicit orders during the operation to go ahead and kill bin Laden. This was the contingency that had been viewed as most probable from the beginning.

It was also learned that bin Laden attempted to hide behind a human shield--reported by some to be his wife. I haven't heard specifically what happened to her. But it was reported that bin Laden was shot in the head, which is what you would expect if a criminal is trying to hide behind a hostage, not realizing that Navy Seals are all good shots, and some of them are great shots.

It has emerged that there may have been less cooperation from the Pakistanis than previously assumed. Pakistan has long given mixed signals on such things. Al Qaeda has declared war on Pakistan, too, and launched terror attacks against schools and sporting events in Pakistan. So there is a strong, widespread opposition to Al Qaeda and the Taliban, especially in the government and most of the people. And yet there appear to be many people who supported bin Laden, enough so that he could live in that million-dollar compound for as much as five years, just 100 yards or so from the Pakistani military training camp--equivalent to our West Point.

I am sure that among the contingencies planned for in the operation against bin Laden was what to do if the Pakistani military took exception to four or more U.S. military helicopters swooping down and launching a company of Navy Seals at bin Laden's compound, and tried to intervene. Perhaps the Pakistani government was able to order the base locked-down, as a covert sort of cooperation with the U.S. action, which covert operation they could plausibly deny.

But the Seals secured the compound, took custody of bin Laden's body, searched for information and confiscated the hard drives from all computers, then got out of there before any real military response could be organized on the part of the Pakistanis, were they so inclined. The president said he had served notice a long time ago that if we had a chance to take bin Laden, we would act unilaterally to do it, if we had to. So they were given fair notice.

As I said before, this is one time when President Obama "got it right." Too many leftist liberals might have wussed out.

[ May 02, 2011, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Destineer
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Hey Ron, you're needed in the birther thread.

quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
Ron, as a sign of good faith here, would you acknowledge that we do not in fact 'see and hear Obama's grandmother say "Barack nate dhalani."' in this video?


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Ron Lambert
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Why don't you, Destineer? I gave you the link. I listened to the video and I saw and heard it. It was repeated in fact, emphasized, with translations of each word supplied. It comes about 2/3 of the way through the video. I can only acknowledge that you may have missed it. But it was there. You are without excuse. Your diligence as a scholar needs to improve.
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Samprimary
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quote:
President Obama said that he gave the order for Osama bin Laden to be killed, not captured.
quote:
The president said he had served notice a long time ago that if we had a chance to take bin Laden, we would act unilaterally to do it, if we had to.
Odd, how these things are not at all alike. Why, it's almost a concession, when you think about it.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
It comes about 2/3 of the way through the video.

2/3rds of the way through the video you hear a voiceover. You don't see her say that. Is this literally beyond your capacity to understand?
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Lyrhawn
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To be fair, I'm going to give most people a pass, for a day, on Osama/Obama spelling errors. Mostly because I accidentally did it myself on a Facebook post last night, and deleted it quickly after a frantic phone call from my brother. It's an easy mistake to make when you're used to typing out a word that's only one letter different. Still, I sort of expect better copyediting from a major news organization.

quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
To SenojRetep:

I think you might see some more of what Lyrhawn was predicting come election time, but I am very glad that you haven't found any yet.

For sure. In hindsight, I should have realized that of course, in the immediate aftermath, congratulations and unity were the only appropriate response from the actual politicians. It'll be interesting to read what the conservative media establishment have to say over the next week. I'm still betting you hear something different from them. And then yes, I expect GOP politicians will have a somewhat different story to tell come election time, but, they might simply try to avoid the topic entirely rather than try some verbal sparring on the topic.

I doubt you'll even get much lip-service from this on actual GOP politicians (rather than their supporters), since the debt-ceiling debate will quickly rise up to supplant it, and for the GOP, I bet that can't come fast enough.

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Samprimary
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quote:
In hindsight, I should have realized that of course, in the immediate aftermath, congratulations and unity were the only appropriate response from the actual politicians.
I'm cynical, of course, but I really think that the conservatives involved all realized that while this was definitely bad news for them and good news for Obama, they really, really had to avoid looking unclassy on this one, and would do so if they didn't join in congratulations.
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MattP
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
It comes about 2/3 of the way through the video.

2/3rds of the way through the video you hear a voiceover. You don't see her say that. Is this literally beyond your capacity to understand?
Even that much is false. The last repeat of the phrase in question occurs at the half-way point and the final frame of actual video of the grandmother is at 1:12. By the 2/3 point (~1:20) we're well into the ominous music and text that occupies the the latter 40% of the video.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
In hindsight, I should have realized that of course, in the immediate aftermath, congratulations and unity were the only appropriate response from the actual politicians.
I'm cynical, of course, but I really think that the conservatives involved all realized that while this was definitely bad news for them and good news for Obama, they really, really had to avoid looking unclassy on this one, and would do so if they didn't join in congratulations.
Whatever their reasons, good for them.
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Samprimary
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oh. hm. ok, change it to "1:12"
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
In hindsight, I should have realized that of course, in the immediate aftermath, congratulations and unity were the only appropriate response from the actual politicians.
I'm cynical, of course, but I really think that the conservatives involved all realized that while this was definitely bad news for them and good news for Obama, they really, really had to avoid looking unclassy on this one, and would do so if they didn't join in congratulations.
Agreed. I think I was really thinking more of the Fox News and other conservative media mouthpieces as the likely focal points for derision following this. I should have been more specific. But really, I didn't quite expect the full-throated congratulations that people like Boehner are voicing, at least, not without being couched in far more effusive praise to Bush. I still think we will see it, eventually, but my cynicism trumped my better judgement in this case.
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Samprimary
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The osama/obama confusion is old hat so I wasn't surprised to see goofs on that front, but I seriously would have just keeled over dead from laughter if Fox News put up "Osama Bin Laden (D) Killed In Raid"
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
I think Rivka could take you, Stone. If not her, then her friends in Mossad surely could. [Wink]

That was pretty funny, actually. I laughed. I don't know if the tone was the same for everyone, but it relieved a little bit of the tension for me, and made me snort.

Thanks, Ron. [Big Grin]

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Lyrhawn
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I don't know if rivka could take me in a physical fight, but I know she's smart and eloquent enough to verbally dismember me and cause some serious psychological trauma if she wanted to.

I wouldn't mess with her. [Smile]

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Mucus
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"They broke seven of your transverse ribs and fractured your clavicle."

"Ah, but I got off several cutting remarks which no doubt caused serious damage to their egos. Thanks to your administrations, I am almost completely healed, but the damage I did to them will last a lifetime."

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Samprimary
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RIVKA uses MOSSAD AGENTS

It's SUPER UNEXPECTED

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rivka
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I wasn't even aware I knew any Mossad agents.

Yeesh, no wonder I can't get a date.

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AchillesHeel
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You work for NCIS right?
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
You work for NCIS right?

enhance
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by AchillesHeel:
You work for NCIS right?

The who what now?
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
"They broke seven of your transverse ribs and fractured your clavicle."

"Ah, but I got off several cutting remarks which no doubt caused serious damage to their egos. Thanks to your administrations, I am almost completely healed, but the damage I did to them will last a lifetime."

[Smile] My favorite character.
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AchillesHeel
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Sorry, the show NCIS has a petite Isreali Mossad agent who regularly beats up men in the show. The comparison was quite funny to me.
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Lyrhawn
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As I (and many others) suspected, there's already a lot of talk about how this will boost Obama's drive to pull troops out of Afghanistan. He pegged a lot of his election on focusing on the REAL war in Afghanistan, and pulling out before he could present any demonstrable evidence that what he did there actually accomplished something was going to be a tough sell.

Now he can say two things, one that's been true for awhile, and one that's been true for a day: 1. Much of the original purpose for going in was to fight Al Qaeda and kill bin Laden. Well, Al Qaeda isn't really even there anymore. They're pretty much everywhere else, and have become many other peoples' problems. 2. Bin Laden is dead.

He can move the goal posts and call it a win. Some Republicans will say it's a good move. Some will say he's being weak on the war on terror, but he has a pretty sweet defense to that now with bin Laden's death certificate hanging out on his resume. Besides, such a move would be overwhelmingly popular with the citizenry, if polls taken over the last 6 months are even close to right. He can say he amped up troops, fulfilled the mission, and that the war continues, but that Afghanistan is increasingly a local conflict, and for that matter, one of ethnic strife rather than outside interlopers.

We're coming up on the point where Obama was going to make a decision anyway, based on his timetables, for removing troops or reevaluating and staying there. I think he plays the prophet, says he was right all along, and makes big plans for a troop withdrawal, even if slow. Then he gets to run on being the president who ended two wars and averted a genocide in Libya, all while killing bin Laden. True or not, it makes for a nice narrative.

Lots of talk shows have had experts pop on in the last day or two to talk about how A. The war in Afghanistan hasn't made sense for a little while now, and B. That this gives Obama all the justification he needs.

I wonder how true that will end up being, and how Obama will handle the larger war in the weeks to come.

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Lyrhawn
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There's also a story that's starting to float around about a treasure trove of intelligence data that was found in the compound.
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Samprimary
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http://www.npr.org/2011/05/02/135927693/is-it-wrong-to-celebrate-bin-ladens-death

quote:
And the question remains: Is there moral philosophical justification for rejoicing over the demise of someone like bin Laden?

"Most people believe that the killing we do in war is justified as the only way to disable an enemy whose cause we believe to be unjust," says Christine Korsgaard, a philosophy professor at Harvard University. "And although it is more controversial, many people believe, or at least feel, that those who kill deserve to die as retribution for their crimes.

"But if we confuse the desire to defeat an enemy with the desire for retribution against a criminal, we risk forming attitudes that are unjustified and ugly the attitude that our enemy's death is not merely a means to disabling him, but is in itself a kind of a victory for us, or perhaps even the attitude that our enemy deserves death because he is our enemy."

It is important, Korsgaard says, "not to confuse the desire for retribution with the desire to defeat an enemy. But because terrorism partakes of both crime and war, it is perfectly natural, and perhaps legitimate, to have both of these attitudes towards Osama bin Laden: to think that we had to disable him, and to think that he deserved to die."

The two sentiments should be kept apart, she says. "If we have any feeling of victory or triumph in the case, it should be because we have succeeded in disabling him not because he is dead."


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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I still think we will see it, eventually, but my cynicism trumped my better judgement in this case.

Santorum, in his effuse drive to hammer in his general irrelevance, wanted to be the first to break that particular floodgate.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54174.html

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Geraine, how would you feel if you were one of our allies, fighting in Afghanistan, and this news was kept from you? An intelligence officer whose job it is to glean news of bin Laden? A voter who feels that the news was manipulated for political effect? Keeping it a secret was not an option.

That said, I do think that the gloating is at best unbecoming and at worst dangerous and probably both.

I see your point. I guess I just think that in the long run the gloating and celebrating on the streets is just going to be used by those that hate us as propaganda. Holding back the information for a little while (even just a couple of weeks) would have been one way to do that. I can't think of any other way they could have minimized it.
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Stone_Wolf_
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If the celebrating is what you are trying to quash, then there are better, more effective and less negative side effect ways to accomplish that goal.

If Obama had asked the people of the US to not celebrate, but instead take this time for quiet introspection and prayer for those who lost their lives on 9/11 and our warfighters who fought to bring those responsible to justice, it would accomplish your goal without being dishonest about a major world affecting event.

I am very glad they told us, and would have been very upset if they hadn't (when I found out).

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BlackBlade
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New details from WP.

Bin Laden was unarmed, did not use a woman as a human shield, but he did 'resist' in some fashion. There are photos, but apparently they are a bit gruesome and so the government is unsure under what conditions they will release them.

I figured these sorts of details would start popping up with time.

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SenojRetep
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Remember Cindy Sheehan? She was a hero of the anti-war left for awhile, camping outside of Bush's Texas ranch, trying to confront him about her son that died in Iraq. She gave voice to populist anti-war movement prior to its cooption in the 2006 election.

Anyway, after 2008 when the US moved on from it's anti-war fixation she drifted out of the limelight and seems to have descended into conspiracy theory land, first coming out as a 9/11 "truther" and now jumping on the "deatherism" bandwagon, saying (on Facebook) that "if you believe the newest death of OBL, you're stupid."

<edit>I'm not saying the anti-war left was loony; certainly there were/are many intelligent people who opposed the war. Sheehan's personal descent from face of the revolution to crackpot conspiracist just struck me as tragi-poetic.</edit>

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Lyrhawn
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That's an odd choice from her. Arguably, his death will end the war faster.
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