quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: At first I assumed this season would pick up with people getting back to the island and then filling in the gaps with flashbacks. Now I'm suspecting that returning to the island will actually happen at the end, although I'm unclear on how they'll drag it out that long. (So far the "theme" of each season is usually established in the first episode, and I'm not seeing anything other than people trying to get back to each other)
I'm a little wary of making time travel the key ingredient of the story. Time travel has to be done extremely well or it just becomes silly. The Terminator show works because time travel isn't relevant most the time. The people came back in time, now they're here and that's that.
I'm not sure I have faith in the Lost crew to pull a solid TT story off. Let's cross our fingers. (I suspect that they WILL attempt to do roughly what Strider's suggesting, whether they succeed or not)
I think that the six will return fairly early in the season. They do have 70 hours to return to the island. That's roughly 1 1/2 to 2 episodes. It's the "what happens next" part that will be the main theme. The six could make it too the island and spend the entire season trying to return to those who were left. Then they would be trying to reach other though time. When that happens, someone will have to stop the Island's time hops.
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quote:The other thing that I was really interested in was Locke and Richard's communication, and the compass. So we all know where the compass is from. Here's my question. Does Locke end up running into Richard at some point in the past(for Richard(though given Richard's interesting relationship with time I don't know if you can really say that about him)) and use the compass to prove to Richard that what he tells him is the truth? Or should I say, is that its only purpose, or does it also tie in even more(in a recursive way) to why Richard wants Locke to come to the Island so badly? Does Locke run into Richard before Locke is even born? Is that why Richard keeps visiting Locke to see if he's ready to come to the Island? Because he KNOWS he eventually will? And is that why the compass "already belongs" to Locke when he's a child? Because Locke is actually the one who gives it to Richard?
I feel like they're answering so much this season. We finally know why Whidmore wants to get to the Island so badly. Because he was there! He was a native(whatever that ends up being). It'll be interesting to see what events lead up to him having to leave and splitting with the group.
oh, Ellie(the native chick who was leading Faraday to the bomb, and who Faraday thought he recognized), is I think Faraday's mom. Ms. Hawking. The ages work out right too.
All the destiny talk is finally starting to make sense in a concrete way. Remember when Richard said something along the lines of "we've been waiting for you for a long time" to Locke. I'm wondering how many more unexplained mysteries will be explained by having the displaced Losties actually causing the events we never understood.
A friend of mine had an interesting theory about the whispers. She said she thought it was the Losties from the future hiding in the past and not wanting to show themselves so they wouldn't mess with their past selves. That's pretty interesting. I went on lostpedia though to see if there were any theories on that, and they actually have people who have put up the transcipts of the whipsers, and they're quite eye opening. They don't answer anything specific, but it's interesting what I think they're implying with it.
I was trying to think about who else Adam and Eve might be, and I thought it could be Desmond and Penny, it'd be cooler to see those two as these two significant symbols from early on, as opposed to Faraday and Charlotte(who may or may not be alive so much longer). But I wonder what would happen to their son if that theory turns out to be correct? I had the sickening thought that their son Charlie could be Charles Whidmore, I hope not, I don't think they'd do that.
quote:Mr. Friendly did come and visit Michael in New York. He recruited him into working for Ben.
ahh...very true. I thought we were only talking about the scene surrounding Michael's death, that's where Raymond must've gotten confused.
I just forgot who told Michael he could go. I just remembered the words.
The transcript page is really interesting. Gives me a lot more sense that they knew what they were doing the whole time.
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quote:I think that the six will return fairly early in the season. They do have 70 hours to return to the island. That's roughly 1 1/2 to 2 episodes.
Where do you get that math? An episode is 45 minutes long in "real time" and in "TV time" you can't even begin to measure them because of all these time travel shenanigans. How much time "elapsed" in this episode? With all the crazy stuff going on and off the island, I think there's plenty material to have everyone reunited in about 20 episodes.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: But I wonder what would happen to their son if that theory turns out to be correct? I had the sickening thought that their son Charlie could be Charles Whidmore, I hope not, I don't think they'd do that.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Was the woman holding the gun on Daniel his mother?
That possibility completely bypassed me. Huh. Could be! We (boyfriend and I) thought it was because of a resemblance between that girl and the girl in the bed back in Oxford. (We probably thought that simply because he thought the girl with the gun was the same as in the picture Desmond found in the closed-up room, though I didn't at the time.)
How about Charlotte? Is there some kind of weird thing going on with two of her (child Charlotte and adult Charlotte) being in the same time/place at once or is she simply suffering from the same thing that killed some folks on the boat and almost did Desmond in? Edit: I realized after posting that there was no mention of her having those flashes in other times.
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quote:Am I the only one whose head is starting to asplode?
you may not be the only one Uprooted, but I completely disagree(not about Jack, Kate, and Hurley). I'm loving every bit of this season so far.
My only real problem/question has to do with why there is this sudden 72 hour time frame three years after the Oceanic 6 leave the island. When the two story lines come together, i kind of assumed that it was going to be a matter of days for the Losties on the Island, and 3 years or whatever for the Oceanic 6. unless they explain this 72 hour deadline in a satisfactory way it seems to me right now to be a bogus time frame to stir up excitement in the viewer.
Everything else they're doing with time and cause and effect is right up my alley. We talked about this last season, but it's the Time Traveler's Wife philosophy of time travel as opposed to the Back to the Future philosophy. And I think it will explain many of our unanswered questions. Many...not all though.
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quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: By the way, Strider, my husband really likes your Little Charlie == Charles Whidmore thought.
--Mel
Oh man...i really do hope that's not true. i thought the idea was sort of neat. but to have Penny give birth to her own father, who gives birth to her...etc...may just be a bit too much for me.
the only way i can see it being true, is if my theory about Desmond and Penny being adam and eve is right. that they end up on the island way early in the time line, and have brought little charlie with them, who ends up growing up on the island.
thoughts about whidmore/faraday/the game between Ben and Whidmore.
Whidmore is funding faraday's work. Ben and Whidmore are enemies in this game they're playing. Ben answers to Faraday's mom.
Does Whidmore answer to Faraday's mom too? Is Faraday's mom against Whidmore too? Does she know Whidmore is funding her son? Does Faraday know Whidmore's connection to all this or he clueless about the ins and outs of his benefactor?
Basically, is Whidmore funding Faraday under the nose of his mother because of his own desire to get back to the Island? Or is this all still part of this "game" that's being played? Maybe game isn't the best words, but there's obviously agreed upon rules which Whidmore has now broken. Is Whidmore funding Faraday because he knows that Faraday needs to end up on the Island? Or is the reason that Faraday's mom doesn't stop Whidmore from funding her son because she knows Faraday needs to go to the Island? Is the game, while a struggle between men for control of the Island, still based around the fundamental principle of protecting the Island at all costs?
Just some random thoughts.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Whidmore is funding faraday's work. Ben and Whidmore are enemies in this game they're playing. Ben answers to Faraday's mom.
Does Whidmore answer to Faraday's mom too? Is Faraday's mom against Whidmore too? Does she know Whidmore is funding her son? Does Faraday know Whidmore's connection to all this or he clueless about the ins and outs of his benefactor?
Basically, is Whidmore funding Faraday under the nose of his mother because of his own desire to get back to the Island? Or is this all still part of this "game" that's being played? Maybe game isn't the best words, but there's obviously agreed upon rules which Whidmore has now broken. Is Whidmore funding Faraday because he knows that Faraday needs to end up on the Island? Or is the reason that Faraday's mom doesn't stop Whidmore from funding her son because she knows Faraday needs to go to the Island? Is the game, while a struggle between men for control of the Island, still based around the fundamental principle of protecting the Island at all costs?
Just some random thoughts.
Started to go off on that thread last night, too, but you've definitely thought more about the possibilities.
To run with the idea of struggling for control of the Island, it seems like a tough job to acquire! If Jacob really is the next rung up from Richard or Locke (or whoever you want to put directly below Jacob), he kind of has to give his approval/backing to whoever is in official control of the place. Are Whidmore and Ben like cronies trying to seek the management's approval? If so, how do they exactly plan to demonstrate their loyalty or whatever to the Island? How DO you demonstrate loyalty to the Island?!
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well, I personally think that Jacob IS the Island, or at least some essence of it. So seeking managements approval IS demonstrating loyalty to the Island. It's doing what's in the best interest for the safety of the Island.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: well, I personally think that Jacob IS the Island, or at least some essence of it. So seeking managements approval IS demonstrating loyalty to the Island. It's doing what's in the best interest for the safety of the Island.
There's definitely a disconnect at the moment when it comes how some of their actions actually do keep the Island safe. Obviously, we don't know why getting back the 6 will save the people on it (presuming saving people on the Island is in any way equal to protecting it), yet Ben's determined. Lots of questions that still need answers...
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good point. Ben might not give a crap about the rest of the Losties, and is only trying to get the Oceanic 6 back to the Island for the sake of the Island itself. It works out for him that his goal coincides with the O6s goal of helping their friends.
The question is what happens between now and when Locke actually leaves the Island to recruit their help. What does he tell them, and is it the truth?
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Sorry...I think T:man appearing is partly my fault. I commented on his post. *sheepish grin*
You're probably right; his motives don't necessarily need to be the same as the O6s and likely aren't.
Locke definitely has it in him to lie or at least twist the truth, unlike Hurley, who apparently had a lot of reservations when it came to lying. And yet he did because everyone else was going to. Hmm... Note also, even though he told Sayid not to count on him (when they were deciding to lie), he did come through for the guy.
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quote:We talked about this last season, but it's the Time Traveler's Wife philosophy of time travel as opposed to the Back to the Future philosophy.
Except that somehow Desmond is exempt from the rules, from what Faraday said and believes. Wouldn't be surprised if he does some Marty McFly stuff.
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Is he though? What exactly did Faraday say about Desmond?
Here's the important question...was the memory of Faraday speaking with him ALWAYS there and he just remembered it, or was it created at the moment the interaction occurred? If the latter(which i don't think), then why did something that Faraday did on the Island a day after Desmond left make it's affect known to Desmond 3 years in his future? Or was it not three years in his future? I'm a bit confused about the time line. This week's episode we saw a roughly three year or so progression in Desmond's life from off the Island to roughly around the current time we're seeing the Oceanic 6.
When was that scene on the boat that we saw from the first episode? Was that right after they left and it just took him three years to act on it? Or was the scene we saw of him remembering the event with Faraday occurring after his son was already born and growing and he acted on it immediately?
What is the relationship between time and the events we are currently seeing on the island and the events we are following off the island? Is it just the producers showing us the important bits of the story, or are the two times related more fundamentally?
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Okay, so they've introduced a nuclear bomb that we can presume was buried somewhere on the island - it seems likely that that fact is going to prove important at some point along the way. Any guesses as to how? Is someone going to blow up the island in the end?
Also... is the fact that the Others speak Latin an important hint at the history of the island? We know that the island can be moved. Is it possible that it was once part of the Roman Empire - perhaps dating back to the time when that four-toed statue was built?
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no...just kidding. I think Latin is important and may tie in to a longer history of the island, but four toes are still FOUR toes!
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I thought the bomb was what was hinding under the hatch and transmitting the electromagnetic waves. Wasn't there a bunch of stuff in the first two seasons about something being buried in lead and concrete under the hatch station?
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I was thinking, based purelt on his blonde hair and name, do you think the young Chalie we met this episode might, though time-traveling mishaps, actually be the rock-star Charlie?
It would be much stranger since he died after speaking to Penny, who would then be his mother.
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Y'all remind me of me. When I saw future-Gabriel's son Noah on Heroes, the first thing that popped into my head was that it was Claire's dad, either de-aged or thanks to time-travel.
Sometimes a Charlie is just a Charlie. Both Havah and I teared up when we realized that Desmond had named him after Charlie. I think that's enough significance.
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quote:I thought the bomb was what was hinding under the hatch and transmitting the electromagnetic waves. Wasn't there a bunch of stuff in the first two seasons about something being buried in lead and concrete under the hatch station?
That's what I thought too - but then wouldn't the explosion of the hatch have set off the nuclear bomb?
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Where is Penny's mother? Is Widmore really Penny's father? The only way I've been able to come up with for my theory about Adam and Eve being Penny and Desmond is if they bring Charlie to the Island and he grows up there. And I'm very against Charles being her dad and her being his mom. But with if Widmore isn't really Penny's father? Maybe he adopts her at a young age to take care of the person he knows will be his mother? But then why is he so against Desmond? Is he doing the things he does specifically to bring about the end result of Penny and Desmond getting together, or is actually trying to keep them apart, which would negate his existence. There's also a lot of other stuff about Widmore's actions that don't make sense if he knows penny and desmond are his parents. But i'm keeping this one in the back of my mind. Though I do agree with what you say here Lisa:
quote: Both Havah and I teared up when we realized that Desmond had named him after Charlie. I think that's enough significance.
It was touching.
Why is Charlotte the only character going through adverse affects from temporal displacement? Here's an idea I had in regards to the theory i proposed about the Island creating all the past connections of the characters because it knows those people will end up on it in the future and so it spends their whole lives trying to bring them together and bring them to the Island. Could it also be that the Island is giving all these people constants without their knowledge? Faraday has Desmond, and everyone else(besides Miles) has all these mysterious connections with each other throughout their lives.
Also, there's still the interesting bit about Miles asking Charlotte why she wants to leave the Island when she spent so long getting back to it. And she tells Daniel something about looking for the place she was born. Was Charlotte born on the Island? Who are her parents? How does Miles know?
Did anyone else read the transcripts of the whispers? Do you think that's something I should put a spoiler warning on, or is it fair territory? Just to be safe for now...
*SPOILERS ABOUT THE WHISPERS* . . . . .
Speaking of Miles. It's pretty well established now that his ability to talk to the dead is legit. I want to tie this in to the whispers. It seems that the whispers are the voices of people who have died on the Island, and can possibly have the ability to manifest themselves as a physical form. Miles' ability to speak to the dead just sort of bolsters the idea that the dead can communicate with the living, especially when aided by the powers of the Island?
. . . . *END SPOILERS*
quote:I was thinking, based purelt on his blonde hair and name, do you think the young Chalie we met this episode might, though time-traveling mishaps, actually be the rock-star Charlie?
I highly doubt that. Charlie seems to have a well established family.
I think I think about this show too much.
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Could Whidmore be Faraday's father? The woman holding the gun on Faraday looks to be about the same age as Whidmore on the island.
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quote:Originally posted by Mama Squirrel: Could Whidmore be Faraday's father? The woman holding the gun on Faraday looks to be about the same age as Whidmore on the island.
There's a thought! That would put an additional spin on his question for Desmond about why he (Desmond) would think he (Whidmore) would know where Faraday's mother is.
Just wanted to clarify something because I honestly am not sure: The girl in the bed and the girl on the island with the gun are two different women, right? At first, my boyfriend thought the girl with the gun could have been the one in the picture (in the bed), but I didn't think so.
If they are two different people, and if that is Daniel's mom, do you think the girl in the bed might be his sister?
Too many if's. My brain's about to implode from them and it being a Friday afternoon.
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quote:She said she thought it was the Losties from the future hiding in the past and not wanting to show themselves so they wouldn't mess with their past selves.
The future Losties wouldn't ask so many questions about who they're watching -- they'd already know. Or it would be them!
quote: It seems that the whispers are the voices of people who have died on the Island, and can possibly have the ability to manifest themselves as a physical form. Miles' ability to speak to the dead just sort of bolsters the idea that the dead can communicate with the living, especially when aided by the powers of the Island?
Is Miles speaking with the dead? or is he speaking with the the living in another time?
quote: Could Whidmore be Faraday's father? The woman holding the gun on Faraday looks to be about the same age as Whidmore on the island.
I love this theory. It explains A. Lot. also? widdle whidmore? pain in the butt. He's less annoying as an old tyrant.
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quote:I think that the six will return fairly early in the season. They do have 70 hours to return to the island. That's roughly 1 1/2 to 2 episodes.
Where do you get that math? An episode is 45 minutes long in "real time" and in "TV time" you can't even begin to measure them because of all these time travel shenanigans. How much time "elapsed" in this episode? With all the crazy stuff going on and off the island, I think there's plenty material to have everyone reunited in about 20 episodes.
Every episode has lasted roughly a day, with a few exceptions. How are 70 hours going to be split among the remaining 14 episodes? The timeline on the island is very screwy, but time in the real world is still running normally. The next episode does focus on Kate and Aaron. If an entire season is spent on reuniting the O6, then I think that's wasted time. Their return to the Island has to be done this season if we are to see what the heck is going on at the island.
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quote:She said she thought it was the Losties from the future hiding in the past and not wanting to show themselves so they wouldn't mess with their past selves.
The future Losties wouldn't ask so many questions about who they're watching -- they'd already know. Or it would be them!
Agreed. I guess I didn't make it clear in my post that once I looked up the transcripts I left that theory behind.
quote:Is Miles speaking with the dead? or is he speaking with the the living in another time?
that's a good point, and a really interesting idea. Though, two things about that. One, from the information that Miles is able to obtain from the "dead" people, it seems that have up to date current knowledge about themselves(i.e. - how the soldiers were killed). If he was talking to them at an earlier time, then they wouldn't know that. Two, if his ability does tie in to the whispers somehow(and that's definitely an if at the moment), and the impression left by the whisper transcripts is that the people speaking are currently dead(also an assumption), then your theory might not hold up. But...it's certainly a possibility, and in line with what's been happening recently.
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I don't think Miles connection to the dead is accurately described by "talking to the dead" although that may be part of his ability. He is able to sense when, where and how people and animals die. He is aware of their graves when he passes near/over them. He knew where to find a dead boar in the forest. He also seems to be aware of secrets from peoples past, like the fact that Charlotte had lived on the island as a child.
I'm very interested to find out what his ability actually is.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I don't think Miles connection to the dead is accurately described by "talking to the dead" although that may be part of his ability. He is able to sense when, where and how people and animals die. He is aware of their graves when he passes near/over them. He knew where to find a dead boar in the forest. He also seems to be aware of secrets from peoples past, like the fact that Charlotte had lived on the island as a child.
I'm very interested to find out what his ability actually is.
When you think of his powers like you stated them it does seem like he has some sort of temporal communication ability. That could also be why he was sent to the island, maybe Whidmore does know about the time travel, and chose to send him because of that.
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: Is Miles speaking with the dead? or is he speaking with the the living in another time?
I would guess that Miles is speaking with the dead in the same way that Hurley is. They just aren't showing it to us the same way. Or maybe Miles can only hear them, while Hurley can see them as well.
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quote:I would guess that Miles is speaking with the dead in the same way that Hurley is.
I'm curious why you would think that. The information Miles gets about the dead does not seem to have any overlap with the messages Hurley gets from the dead.
I've also noted that thus far, all the Losties that have appeared to the Oceanic 6 are confirmed dead, except Claire. I'm suspecting that Claire is also dead, that she was killed by the explosion that blew up her house.
It's also worth noting that thus far, Jin hasn't actually appeared to anyone, which keeps up hope that he is still alive.
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quote: If an entire season is spent on reuniting the O6, then I think that's wasted time. Their return to the Island has to be done this season if we are to see what the heck is going on at the island.
Since the show isn't moving linearly in time, I don't see this to be a problem. The last episodes have shown us some of what is going on at the island so I can't see why return of the O6 would be essential for us learn more about the Island and what's happening to those left behind.
They have some major hurdles to overcome if they are going to return to the island in the next 70 hours. They've got to get Hurley out of jail. Sun is in league with Whidmore and wants to kill Ben. Meanwhile Ben has an outstanding threat to kill Penny. Kate is on the run and it took the FBI years to catch her before. She has been warned by Claire not to bring Aaron back to the island so its not going to be easy to persuade her to change her mind. Then there is Desmond and possibly Walt and even Frank. I can't see them resolving all those issues in only 2 or three episodes without some deus ex machina device.
It took them all of last season to get the Oceanic 6 off the island. I suspect it will take them all of this season to get them back.
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I was about to say that Claire isn't dead -- but who knows, right? It would be a sucky way to lose her, as she was a pretty important character for awhile, and she never really got closure or a decent death-scene , but her appearance to Kate seems to indicate that -- unless, of course, like I've been worried and/or intrigued about for awhile -- "Deaths" on the island aren't quite like deaths in the real world. And I don't just mean the appearing-to-living-people thing.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I've also noted that thus far, all the Losties that have appeared to the Oceanic 6 are confirmed dead, except Claire. I'm suspecting that Claire is also dead, that she was killed by the explosion that blew up her house.
It's also worth noting that thus far, Jin hasn't actually appeared to anyone, which keeps up hope that he is still alive.
Funny you should mention Claire and dead in the same sentence. My initial impression was that she died, and later a friend pointed out that she's with them as they're fleeing the the scene. Then she wanders off with Dad, but some little tickle in the back of my brain just assumed she was no longer of the living.
Also, that episode where Jin is running around trying to find the panda, where you think he's really trying to bring it to Sun in the hospital up until the end. I also thought that perhaps he was doing that while Sun was in labor only he had no memory of her or being married, etc. He was there (alive or dead?) but didn't recall any portion of his life that directly related to her or the island and so on. Of course, it could also have been a flash back of sorts to a time before he met Sun, but I don't think he would have been running errands for her father at that point since the only reason he ended up working for her father was so he could marry her. Hmm.
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That episode with Jin that you're talking about was Lost screwing with your head. The episode contained a flashforward for Sun, and a flashback for Jin. It was indeed AFTER he met Sun and was working for Mr. Paik, but before they ever ended up on the Island.
I don't think Claire is dead. When and how exactly did she die? I assume she's just chillin in the cabin with Christian Shepard and Jacob. Playing Boggle and Yahtzee to pass the time.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: That episode with Jin that you're talking about was Lost screwing with your head. The episode contained a flashforward for Sun, and a flashback for Jin. It was indeed AFTER he met Sun and was working for Mr. Paik, but before they ever ended up on the Island.
I don't think Claire is dead. When and how exactly did she die? I assume she's just chillin in the cabin with Christian Shepard and Jacob. Playing Boggle and Yahtzee to pass the time.
Doesn't someone ask him about being married (or am I confusing that with the question of having children?) in that episode with him replying the negative? Man, wish I were home where I could pop the DVD in and watch.
The Claire being dead thing is just an inkling. No evidence behind that except a feeling.
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quote:I don't think Claire is dead. When and how exactly did she die? I assume she's just chillin in the cabin with Christian Shepard and Jacob. Playing Boggle and Yahtzee to pass the time.
Since Christian Shepard is dead and Jacob has only appeared in "ghostly" form, the very fact that Claire is chillin' with them in the cabin raises the question of whether or not she is alive.
As for when when she died, I expect she died when her cabin in the other's town exploided and that the Claire we saw after that point is among the undead of the island like Christian Shepard.
*P.S. By "undead" I did not mean to imply she or anyone else is a zombie or vampire, I simply couldn't find any better word for describing the island dead who apparently come back to life.
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posted
I'm worried that the show is going to have two separate explanations that, while not mutually exclusive, at least don't add up to what I like to call "OBOE," or: "one big overall explanation" to all of the mysteries. Sort of like quantum mechanics and general relativity .
I.E.: "every mystery can be explained by the fluidness/alterability of TIME" OR "it's all supernatural/ghostly/otherworldly".
Each explains certain things: Time: Desmond's abilities, the time travel experienced in Season 5, etc.
Supernatural: Smoke monster, whispers, (possibly) Miles' abilities, etc.
But neither adequately fits all of the mysteries.
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quote:every mystery can be explained by the fluidness/alterability of TIME
i'm still arguing that the show is espousing the idea that there is no such thing as the "alterability of time". I point to the recent explanation of Richard's constant interest in John Locke throughout his life as proof of this.
Though I guess your main point is about using time jumping as means to explain many mysteries. And I agree.
As for "supernatural", I don't know that there's any reason to assume the show will take that route in explaining those other mysteries. In fact, I think they're all tied together. The reason that the Island has this interesting relationship with time ties into the reason that Island has all these other mysterious properties. Which I think has to do with the Island's weird electromagnetic field. It's the Island odd physical properties that lead to all of its mysterious properties. Though the big mystery is i guess why the island is like this in the first place.
I think a more basic division in how questions will be answered can be divided like this:
1) Questions that will be answered once we understand the mysterious properties of the island better
2) Questions that will be answered due to events caused by Losties misplaced in time.
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, but her appearance to Kate seems to indicate that -- unless, of course, like I've been worried and/or intrigued about for awhile -- "Deaths" on the island aren't quite like deaths in the real world. And I don't just mean the appearing-to-living-people thing.
