posted
I'm not. I think they are part of a paradox that needs fixed so that things can go back to normal.
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posted
I came up with a new theory recently that I think makes a lot of thematic sense to the show. What if the Smoke Monster and Jacob are rival entities at war with each other over the island?
Perhaps when Jacob told Locke to help him- it was free him from being shackled by the Smoke Monster. That is to say that the Smoke Monster has control of the island proper.
There's a lot more reasoning for this idea but it's something I've been increasingly believing.
Also The Reader- please don't post anything about future episodes. I would rather have preferred to not know that those two characters are going to be in it. I don't read the press releases because they give away more information than I would want.
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Actually, I think it's more likely that Jacob and the smoke monster are one and the same, or intertwined in some fundamental way. Remember Locke's first visit, when the room starts going crazy we see a cloud of black smoke rocking back and forth in Jacob's chair.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Actually, I think it's more likely that Jacob and the smoke monster are one and the same, or intertwined in some fundamental way. Remember Locke's first visit, when the room starts going crazy we see a cloud of black smoke rocking back and forth in Jacob's chair.
Hmm...the Smoke Monster is, after all, chained.
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quote:Also The Reader- please don't post anything about future episodes. I would rather have preferred to not know that those two characters are going to be in it. I don't read the press releases because they give away more information than I would want.
Sorry. I tag information as a spoiler in the future. Hmm, That's pretty far away considering that Season 6 doesn't start for months.
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posted
Some more thoughts about why I was disappointed with last week.
Jack
Why is Jack being such an idiot? Why does Jack suddenly trust anything anybody tells him? Miles tells Jack a few episodes back that nothing can be changed, so he sits around and does nothing. Faraday shows up and says things can be changed, and suddenly he thinks things can be changed. Jack tells Sayid they can trust Eloise in 1977 because she helped them get to the Island in 2008. Jack thinks he's *supposed* to be here based on that information from Mrs. Hawking in the future. But Faraday also told him his mother was a liar and that he's not supposed to be there. So where exactly is the disconnect? He trusts Faraday who tells him not to trust his mother. But then trusts his mother too. Without any actual thinking or logic Jack is willing to kill every living person on this Island, because he thinks he'll magically be back in 2005 and not crash land on the Island. Meanwhile he's trying to convince Kate to go along with this, which as Rabbit pointed out, would put her back into police custody for murder!
Sayid
Sayid is really so quickly willing to blow everything up because "hey, it can't be worse than it is now!" Really?
Kate
You know something is wrong when Kate is the VOICE OF REASON.
Sawyer and Juliet
I am just completely uninterested in these two. What a shame. They were each such cool characters on their own.
Faraday
Still dead. and that means the Chang/Faraday video isn't canon, and that totally blows.
Chang
Why did Chang change his mind? What suddenly made him believe what Faraday said? Did something happen that we as viewers weren't shown? I hope so, because otherwise it seems like a really out of nowhere switch to occur.
Locke
Upon first viewing I was really thrown off by Locke's desire to kill Jacob, as it also seemed like a really out of nowhere character change. But after Tres's post, my perspective on that has changed. Other than that I really liked Locke this episode. I question exactly how the Island is speaking to him, how he knew that day was THE day and all that, but it was cool to see him taking such control. For most of his life he has been too easily controlled by others.
The Compass
They created a paradox of origin with the compass. They could have easily NOT gotten themselves into this type of trouble, but they did. The compass has no origin, it was never made. Locke gives it to Richard in the 1950s and Richard gives it back Locke in 2007. What this means is that from the compasses point of view, it pops into existence in 1954 and pops out of existence in 2007. It has no beginning or end. Weak.
The Compass Exchange
This scene on it's own was pretty cool. I like how Locke helped to bring about his own future because the way he views it, he is now a fully realized human being, to borrow from Eastern religions, he has realized the god within himself. And he knows that for that to happen he has to leave the island, be killed, and be reborn on the Island. And for all that to happen, Richard needs to tell him some very specific things. I'll actually give some kudos to Richard for handling the encounter with time jumping locke pretty damn well considering how little he actually knows. But I'm still pissed about how ignorant he is.
Random bits
Eloise is pregnant with Faraday right now. Is Penny older or younger than Faraday? Should she be born already? Is Widmore having babies with someone off Island and with Eloise at the same time? What causes Eloise to leave the Island, is the events that have just happened(killing her son) and what happens in the finale? We know that Widmore is on the Island for at least another 15-20 years after this.
Hurley was absolutely hilarious. His interchange with Chang was hands down the best part of the episode.
I liked that Miles realized that his father had to get Laura and baby Miles to leave by any means necessary, and that Chang really did love them.
The procession of Others to Jacob's cabin had echoes of the procession of Losties to the tower in season 3...and we all know how that turned out.
Richard says he saw the Losties die in 77. Obviously they're not going to die. More likely they time jump, but i'm curious as to what exactly he saw to lead him to believe they died.
Happy Lost finale everyone!
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You know something is wrong when Kate is the VOICE OF REASON.
She isn't. She's the same selfish Kate we've seen from the get-go. If setting off a hydrogen bomb would ensure that she stays out of jail, she'd press the button in a heartbeat. The reason she has a problem with it is that she's afraid Jack's right, and that setting off the bomb will result in her landing in LA with the Federal Marshall and matching steel bracelets.
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You know something is wrong when Kate is the VOICE OF REASON.
She isn't. She's the same selfish Kate we've seen from the get-go. If setting off a hydrogen bomb would ensure that she stays out of jail, she'd press the button in a heartbeat. The reason she has a problem with it is that she's afraid Jack's right, and that setting off the bomb will result in her landing in LA with the Federal Marshall and matching steel bracelets.
So it's simply coincidence that her selfish take on the bomb situation is also the one that makes the most sense.
(edited to remove excess 's)
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quote:So it's simply coincidence that her selfish take on the bomb situation is also the one that makes the most sense.
Makes the most sense TO YOU. I don't see her take on the situation as any more sensible than the others. No one seems to be acting reasonably to me but then I wouldn't expect anyone to act reasonably if they suddenly found themselves 30 years in the past immediately before a cataclysmic event or were confronted by someone 30 years from the future. In fact I can't say what I would find to be a reasonable action in their situation.
[ May 13, 2009, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: ...but then I wouldn't expect anyone to act reasonably if they suddenly found themselves 30 years in the past immediately before a cataclysmic event...
One thing I've got to give Lost is that it has me wondering at random moments what my reaction would really be if I were to walk into a Twilight Zone scenario. Watching that classic show also causes me to wonder the same thing, but it's cool that Lost does as well.
On a not entirely unrelated note, this morning as I was driving into work and observed some overgrown grass on either side of a sidewalk, I got to wondering what it would be like if mowing grass wasn't the norm. What if the norm was letting your grass grow to be so many feet tall, thus making sidewalks like hedged in pathways? Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Traceria: On a not entirely unrelated note, this morning as I was driving into work and observed some overgrown grass on either side of a sidewalk, I got to wondering what it would be like if mowing grass wasn't the norm. What if the norm was letting your grass grow to be so many feet tall, thus making sidewalks like hedged in pathways?
Wait..... how was that related?
I think that it is officially time to try to guess what is going to happen during the finale.
My official guess: Jack sets off bomb, Jacob freezes time, Locke tries to fight Jacob. Also Faraday comes back, just beacause I like him.
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posted
Sawyer, Juliette, Kate and the rest of the people on the sub will not get away before the incident.
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They will succeed. Flight 815 will never crash. J.J. Abrams will step on screen, flip us off, and the credits will roll for the last time.
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The guys stuck in the 70's travel in time, rather than dying or losing arms like everyone else (named Doctor Chang). But they go somewhere weird, like 2000 BC.
The sub gets away without Sawyer, Kate, and Juliet onboard.
There's some shocking revelation about Jacob's identity that none of us seriously proposed.
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: Jack's bomb causes the incident.
The guys stuck in the 70's travel in time, rather than dying or losing arms like everyone else (named Doctor Chang). But they go somewhere weird, like 2000 BC.
The sub gets away without Sawyer, Kate, and Juliet onboard.
There's some shocking revelation about Jacob's identity that none of us seriously proposed.
I think you're mostly on. I do think all the Losties will be reunited though, whether it's in 2007 or 2000 BC.
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Okay. So if Faraday is right, none of that ever happened. The devil guy, disguised as Locke, never gets Ben to kill the god guy (I'm assuming they were more or less God/Satan analogs). But Jacob clearly manipulated them all into coming to the Island. Why wouldn't he do so anyway? And if not by plane crash, than some other way?
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I find watching lost to be like trapeze act. I spend most of the time hurled up into the air, in free fall, unsure whether anyone knows what they're doing. Every so often, the writers catch me, briefly reassure me that they do have a plan, and then throw me into the air again.
I have no idea where they're gonna go with this, but I'm reasonably confident it'll be somewhere good, after this episode.
I do like that they *appear* to be sidestepping the self fulfilling prophesies thing because it wasn't Lock telling Richard to do the things to save Lock so he could tell Richard to do stuff. I'm not sure why the Monster AND Jacob both seemed to be working to make sure Jacob got killed, but it was more interesting than what I thought was gonna happen.
I also really liked Juliette's final scene. I was mad when she fell into the whole. Ever since she got established as a Lostie, she's basically hung around doing whatever Jack or Sawyer told her to do. This season she didn't seem to be doing anything other than helping Sawyer's character growth along, and then her ultimate fate appeared to be nothing but being a dramatic emotional event for him. Having spent the last few days reading some feminist reviews of modern media, I found that really disappointing.
Instead, we get to see her take a final action of her own volition. I'm willing to handwave the fact that she survived a ridiculous drop first.
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So, what did Richard say lies in the shadow of the statue?
I was super annoyed by the scene in which Ilana showed Lapidus what was in the box. I thought we weren't going to know what he saw until next season. Although it did finally click for me at that point what it was.
I am very sad that Locke died absolutely demoralized and powerless and that the resurrected, empowered Locke wasn't him at all.
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posted
I knew Jacob's evil twin at the beginning of the show looked familiar. He name is Titus Welliver, and he played Kyle Hollis on Lost. He's creepy.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I knew Jacob's evil twin at the beginning of the show looked familiar. He name is Titus Welliver, and he played Kyle Hollis on Lost. He's creepy.
When was there a Kyle Hollis on Lost.
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quote:Okay. So if Faraday is right, none of that ever happened. The devil guy, disguised as Locke, never gets Ben to kill the god guy (I'm assuming they were more or less God/Satan analogs). But Jacob clearly manipulated them all into coming to the Island. Why wouldn't he do so anyway? And if not by plane crash, than some other way?
I don't think they changed anything. For a few reasons.
1) everything that we've been shown to happen in the past this season has been according to what we know about history. Take a look at even just the few things that happened this past episode. The Incident occurred. Chang lost his hand. Sawyer took out the communications system of the sub(we know that in the future it still doesn't work). And this is all just in this episode. Everything else they've showed us this season has followed the "whatever happened, happened" theory. Faraday talking to little girl Charlotte, the compass exchange, Ben becoming an Other, etc...
2) They really drove home the whole free will/choice thing this episode. I mean...really drove it home. And I think they did that because in the end it won't change anything, because there is nothing to be changed. Things happen once and only once in time. This also follows along with both religious and scientific ideas of free will.
Religion says that God knows all our actions and decisions, and yet still gives us the free will to do them. How can free will exist if God knows what we will do. Science says that our body and thus our brains function according to physical laws, and so where is there room for free will. And yet our choices and decisions are still important to us. Personally, I don't believe in free will. But for the purposes of this show, and these types of conversations, I'm willing to grant the idea that free will can exist in a deterministic setting and not be paradoxical.
Some of the people that I talk to about this show have a serious problem with the "whatever happened, happened" philosophy, and believe that if the show was espousing it that it would remove free will. I've been arguing strongly that it doesn't. This episode was a prime example of that argument by, like i said, really driving home the idea of choice at every turn, and yet in the end having events play out exactly like we've known they would.
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posted
I think we should call Jacob's evil twin Esau until we have a real name.
Although every season has ended with a major cliffhanger, this one tops them all. We have absolutely no idea where this will go from here. Has the time line been reset or not? Whoh is alive and who is dead? Is anyone on Esau's side in this fight except perhaps the smoke monster? It seems like Jacob is responsible for everyone who has come to the island, Losties, Black Rock, the group lead by Ilana, probably even the Dharma initiative.
I think there is a strong connection between the scene with Rose and Bernard and the scene with Jacob and Esau. Jacob's dispute with Esau seems to resolve around the issue of whether people can ever simply live happily in paradise -- i.e. return to Eden. I'm pretty confident now that Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I knew Jacob's evil twin at the beginning of the show looked familiar. He name is Titus Welliver, and he played Kyle Hollis on Lost. He's creepy.
posted
Oh, a few more things. The fact that the bomb had to be set off at exactly the right instant to reset things was repeated several times. I think its significant that the bomb didn't go off as planned before the energy in the EM pocket was released. I wonder what effect this will have on resetting the time line.
Richard's answer to "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" was in latin. It translates to something like "He who will save (or maybe protect) us."
We got a much more complete view of the statue and it appears to be Anubis the god of the afterlife.
It was interesting to see Dr. Chang's arm get caught during the incident and to see Miles save him.
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posted
One more question, what happened to Jin and Hurley? They are with Sawyer et al when they decide to go commando to help Jack, but they aren't in the van and they don't show up at any point during the incident.
Also, presuming that Strider is correct and the time line won't change, we know that Chang, Radzinsky, Ben, Richard, the Dharma initiative and the others don't die in 1977. An H bomb would almost certainly have killed everyone on the island. Certainly everyone near the swan, so was the explosion somehow contained by the drill well or neutralized by the pocket of energy or are we now at last on a different time line.
Also Richard says he watched the Losties die. I can't think of any reason an H bomb would have killed all of them but not killed Chang and Radzinsky. Hurley and Jin are certainly farther away than Chang and Radzinsky could have gotten on foot
I'd also like to add that, at least in my mind, Radzinsky now qualifies as the shows biggest A$$.
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posted
I like the fact that this episode seems to have opened up an explanation for why the events on the island behave in such an elaborately complicated and circuitous fashion: Jacob and his rival are engaged in a game of chess. His rival wants Jacob dead, while Jacob presumably has some other goal in mind (Is he looking for someone by bringing people to the island?) Neither seems omniscient, but both seem capable of understanding the effects of even the smallest action far into the future. As a result, they've each created an extremely elaborate game to try and get the other to make a mistake. And it appears it has been a tie for a long time.
A few thoughts...
Is it possible to find more meaning in this drawing now? It looks like it shows the smoke monster fighting what appears to be an Egyptian god - but maybe it represents the conflict with Jacob?
If Jacob's rival is the resurrected Locke, then is it possible that he is also the person behind every other resurrected dead person on the show? Christian? Yemi? Ben's daughter? If so, it appears he's the one driving the events on the island and bringing everyone there. After all, it is resurrected Christian that told Locke to move the island in the first place, thus causing all the time travel. It is also resurrected Christian that helps Locke move the wheel the second time. It is resurrected Locke that is behind Richard telling Locke that he needs to die and in doing so get everyone back to the island. It is Ben's resurrected daughter that convinces Ben to obey resurrected Locke.
We also see resurrected Christian inside the abandoned cabin. Does this mean that Jacob's enemy was using the cabin? Was he pretending to be Jacob? Was he the one that spoke to Locke and said "Help me"?
It also seems like there's some connection between previous resurrected characters and the smoke monster. Right after Yemi speaks to Eko, the smoke monster kills him. Ben speaks to his resurrected daughter right after seeing the smoek monster. So, we might also assume the smoke monster is linked to Jacob's enemy. And if that's true, then it seems likely that there's some connection between the Temple/Ruins/Tunnels where the smoke monster lives and Jacob's enemy. Does that mean Jacob lives in the statue at the edge of the island while his rival lives in the temple at the center of the island?
And if that's true, then it seems like Ben might really have been Jacob's enemy's servant rather than Jacob's. Consider: Ben was brought to the temple when he was almost killed, not to Jacob. Maybe it was at that point that he was marked as Jacob's rival's. Ben also seems to have some control over the smoke monster and can communicate with it. Maybe that ability is not one that the leader of the Others normally has, but rather is something Ben has been given as a servant of the enemy. That would also explain why Jacob never trusted Ben to let him see him.
And finally, I think Jacob's rival seemed caught off guard when Jacob said "they're coming" at the end. My guess is that he thought that his very elaborate plan to get all these people onto the island and ultimately get Jacob killed was a final victory over Jacob. But I think when Jacob said "they're coming" it revealed that Jacob actually knew he'd be killed, and that it is all part of a larger plan by Jacob. "They" would refer to the Losties, and Jacob is trusting them to do the right things and resolve everything correctly without him in the final season. This season might end up being rather analogous to Book 6 of Harry Potter (with Jacob as Dumbledore, Ben as Snape, etc.)
Of course, this is pretty much all random speculation. At this point, the writers could pretty much decide to do anything. They could have even ended the series right then, and left the rest up to our imaginations.
quote:At this point, the writers could pretty much decide to do anything. They could have even ended the series right then, and left the rest up to our imaginations.
Noooo!!! I absolutely hate that kind of story. They can leave some threads hanging, but if they don't tie the major things up they are going to have some seriously ballistic fans.
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posted
My assumption has been that the Smoke Monster IS Esau, or is incredibly closely linked to him. A while back there was an interview or something where it was said "The Monster can take human form." We've definitely seen it take the form of Alex. I think it's safe to assume that it's taken the form of Lock and that all the "ghosts" we see are in fact the Monster.
In general I agree with the "Jacob and Esau are in a game of chess" theory. I've suspected that for a long time, I just wasn't sure who the players were until today.
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posted
Tres, I think most of your speculations are spot on, or at the very least a good starting point for further speculations. Way too much to address right now, but I had some thoughts about this:
quote:We also see resurrected Christian inside the abandoned cabin. Does this mean that Jacob's enemy was using the cabin? Was he pretending to be Jacob? Was he the one that spoke to Locke and said "Help me"?
I was thinking about this last night. If Jacob lies in the shadow of the statue, then what exactly makes the cabin Jacob's cabin? And now that we know about the connection between Jacob's enemy and the smoke monster(and thus most likely Christian Shepard as well), it brings up a whole new set of questions, many of which you cover about the nature of what we've seen over the years and who was really acting. Anyway...I had always speculated that the ash surrounding the cabin and the lack of technology was their to keep Jacob trapped inside. But I started thinking yesterday, that maybe it's the other way around, maybe it was to keep something out. Question is who or what? What is the keep Jacob out, or Esau? And who broke the circle of ash, and what happened due to the circle being broken?
I agree that it's now hard to discern when actions were actually committed by Jacob, or when it was Esau, disguised as Jacob(an interesting play on the biblical story there!).
And it does seem like Jacob is as much helping to bring about his own demise as his enemy has been doing.
oh, I know i speculate wildy all the time, and miss the mark quite often, but I was really happy with this speculation from a few episodes back:
quote:Locke is in some very significant way related to the smoke monster. I'm not ready to go out on a limb and say Locke IS the smoke monster(in no small part due to the fact that the smoke monster has been around for thousands of years), but i think i'm on to something.
Okay...Locke is missing in the woods. Ben calls the monster and says to Sun he won't be able to control what comes out of the woods. And instead of the monster, John Locke steps out. He tells Ben that he knows where to find the smoke monster. How? When Locke was being pulled by the smoke monster it was about to pull him into a hole in the ground...not into the temple. How does he know where the temple is? Locke leads Ben to the temple(like how the smoke monster drags people it catches towards its home) but they don't go in the main way, they go in through the hole in the ground(the hole that the monster drags people into, i.e.- the french team). Locke knows the real reason Ben needs to be judged without Ben telling him so, and when Ben finally admits it, it is right after that that he falls through the floor. Locke leaves to go find rope. Ben encounters the smoke monster. Locke shows back up with rope asking what happened. If that isn't a Clark Kent/Superman moment I don't know what is.
the only information we were missing was that this wasn't the "real" Locke. Though we were given a clue, Ben had never seen anything like this, which was reiterated by Richard this past episode.
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I don't know if it's right to keep calling this season's Locke "resurrected," since it's pretty clearly his dead body that falls out of that box...he's Smoke Monsterfied! Also, loved the symmetry between finding out Locke was the body in the coffin in "There's No Place Like Home" and finding out he was the body in the box in "The Incident".
Why did it need to be Locke, particularly? The only thing that fauxLocke brought about was convincing Ben to kill Jacob, something Esau presumably couldn't do himself. So why did it need to be Locke? To frighten Ben into submission, since Ben knew he'd killed him? But Ben was still planning to kill Locke up until the Smoke Monster threatened him, so it obviously didn't need to be Locke, specifically. So why was it?
And what was the loophole, exactly? Getting a human to do the murder? Seems like there had to have been an easier way of going about that. Is Ben important, or just a tool? Did it need to be him, or just any person?
Why was Juliette's flashback the only one that didn't contain Jacob? Because she didn't matter? Because she was always going to die and he didn't need her on the island? If she succeeded in setting off the hydrogen bomb, then that would not seem to be true. It seems pretty telling (although I don't know what it tells) that her flashback was the only one sans Jacob.
*Did* she set off the hydrogen bomb, and is she dead now? Or was that a time jump flash?
I thought the book Jacob was reading while he waited for Locke to fall was made up -- it's not! It's a for-reals short story: Everything That Rises Must Converge about -- wait for it -- a troubled mother-son relationship. (Ellie/Faraday?)
From the e-notes summary: "The story’s title refers to an underlying religious message that is central to her work: she aims to expose the sinful nature of humanity that often goes unrecognized in the modern, secular world."
Brings up the racial dichotomy again, and the evil/good, black/white personas of Esau and Jacob...the Black and White rocks, and the Rose/Bernard Adam/Eve thing...plus the religious ties. Thought that was pretty cool. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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1. Someone told me the translation is: "He who will give us salvation." I don't know... *shrug*
2. I'm sure you've all noticed that the white "LOST" on black background was inverted at the end, but has anyone thought about the possible significance of that to the final season?
3. It sounds like from a few comments (in the lengthy chain!) that people are thinking that Jacob 'manipulated' people into coming to the Island. I don't think he did (exception might be Hurley). What did he do in each case? He showed up at a possibly key moment in their lives, made quick appearances and offered words of encouragement, comfort, kept them from getting hit by trucks, etc. He didn't mention the Island to anyone but Hurley that I can recall.
4.
quote:If Jacob's rival is the resurrected Locke, then is it possible that he is also the person behind every other resurrected dead person on the show?
Tresopax, that's the way I'm leaning, too. In fact, I tend to agree with just about every thought and suspicion you mentioned after that as well. I'd say, though, that it was never Jacob pulling the strings behind Ben but the Rival/smoke monster (I agree, Raymond and Tres that they're either one in the same or closely linked) manipulating Ben, building up Ben's resentment for Jacob very, very, VERY slowly. Jacob never refused to let Ben see him because it was never Jacob interacting with Richard (or any other Others?) who were handing down orders.
5. Strider, as soon as you mentioned the cabin, my thoughts took me in the same direction, asking those same questions. (Thinking faster than I was reading there.) And even if the ash was to keep someone in (and not out), maybe it was Esau, and by something/one smudging it, he was free to run amuck again?
6. As to Jacob's last words, I think another possibility besides the Losties 'coming' is that he was referring to Ilana and her group. Just a possibility.
Hmmm....I just got this flash from Perelandra, where Weston is no longer Weston but is basically possessed. He and Ransom are trying to convince the woman (totally forget her name/title) to disobey or obey, respectively. Lost is a lot more complicated, but with all the smoke monster taking human form talk, it just made me think of that.
Edit: Leonide, you've brought up some more good thought points!!
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posted
So, my finace rewatched the first half of the finale over lunch and believes that Jacob and Esau, instead of playing out the struggle between Good and Evil, really represent Order and Chaos.
I like it.
quote:they are locked in an eternal struggle, and that's why they can never kill each other and why Jacob says "it only ends once, until then, it's all just progress" and Esau says, "why do you bring them here, all they ever do it pillage and destroy?"
quote:I'm sure you've all noticed that the white "LOST" on black background was inverted at the end, but has anyone thought about the possible significance of that to the final season?
I kind of figured that was simply because they wanted to end the episode on the flash to white. It looks to me like it was a last minute decision because something doesn't look quite right about it. I think it's likely they originally flashed to white and then went to the normal black screen but when they viewed what would have been the final cut, going to black diluted the effect of the flash to white ending so they made the change. Of course, now that the net is the buzz with the idea that the change means something more they might decide to make it mean something more.
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quote:why Jacob says "it only ends once, until then, it's all just progress" and Esau says, "why do you bring them here, all they ever do it pillage and destroy?"
You have the exchange backwards.
quote:Esau: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Your still trying to prove me wrong.
Jacob: You are wrong.
Esau: Am I? They come, fight. They corrupt. They destroy. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once, everything else is just progress.
quote:It sounds like from a few comments (in the lengthy chain!) that people are thinking that Jacob 'manipulated' people into coming to the Island. I don't think he did (exception might be Hurley). What did he do in each case? He showed up at a possibly key moment in their lives, made quick appearances and offered words of encouragement, comfort, kept them from getting hit by trucks, etc. He didn't mention the Island to anyone but Hurley that I can recall.
I don't think he was manipulating them. He may have been manipulating circumstances in their lives or just observing. I definitely think he brought them to the island. I confident he is responsible for the 2007 crash and the transportation to 1977. I also think its extremely likely that he is responsible for the them coming to the island on flight 815. Remember that flight 815 was 1000 miles off course. It shouldn't have been anywhere near the island when Desmond crashed the plane. I'm guessing that if Desmond hadn't failed to push the button, the flight 815 would have made a crash landing on the island the same way the Al Jira flight crash landed. That was after all one of the key points in the scene between Jacob and Esua -- Jacob brings people to the island.
Its also interesting that they made a point of giving us a time frame for Jacob's visit to young Sawyer -- his parents funeral in 1976. That means that all the visits we saw Jacob make to the Losties occur after Sawyer's group ends up in Dharma time.
It's was interesting to see Ben switch roles with Locke. It was interesting to see Ben go from being the ultimate manipulator, the being manipulated and the revelation that he has alwasy been being manipulated and that his ruthlessness was a cover for the same insecurities John Locke suffered from.
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quote:Originally posted by Traceria: 3. It sounds like from a few comments (in the lengthy chain!) that people are thinking that Jacob 'manipulated' people into coming to the Island. I don't think he did (exception might be Hurley). What did he do in each case? He showed up at a possibly key moment in their lives, made quick appearances and offered words of encouragement, comfort, kept them from getting hit by trucks, etc. He didn't mention the Island to anyone but Hurley that I can recall.
While watching all the interactions between Jacob and the Losties in the past you'll notice he goes out of his way to touch every one of them. And the shot seems to frame on his touching them. I think he was doing more than just talking to them....
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