quote:How did Hurley get out of jail and know where to go? Why is Sayid in handcuffs and why is he being transported to Guam? What did Kate do with Aaron?
My guess is that Ben (or his agents) somehow arranged all of these. He probably played hardball with Kate and figured out some way to force her to give up Aaron, perhaps convincing her its the only way to ultimately protect him - not unlike the deal with Michael. And I'd bet Hurley showed up because Ben (or maybe another dead person, like Locke) informed him that hundreds of people on the plane would die if he didn't go there and buy all the tickets. Hurley would be compelled to save their lives. No idea how he got out of jail or how Sayid got handcuffed, but I suspect that will be showed soon enough. But it does seem as if Ben knows the plan will work, and that everyone necessary will end up on the plane.
quote:Liking Ben... Huh. That is strange. I like him as an interesting character, but I don't like that, in my opinion anyway, he's ultimately working for himself.
I don't think Ben is selfish. Ben is the classic ends-justifies-the-means character. They haven't really explained what end he is going after, but he seems intent on achieving it no matter who gets hurt in the process. He even gets his daughter killed, after all.
I bet that we'll find out more about Ben's motives soon, particularly if the Losties are now in Dharam Initiative time. After all, Ben was alive then - maybe they'll meet little Ben. Of course, that would mean Ben already knew the survivors when they landed on the island, but with Ben anything is possible. We know that past Ben can't meet future Ben, though, because Ben thought he wouldn't be returning to the island when he left last - unless he was lying about that too.
I would guess his motives are going to end up being tied to whatever happens to his girlfriend, which hasn't been explained yet. An appropriately tragic fate for Ben would be if it turns out that Ben's ammorality is driven by his girlfriend being killed in the past, but it turns out that her death was an inadvertant result of manipulations that future Ben tries to do when he is in the past. That would be hard for the show to pull off though.
quote:Maybe Christian Shepard just wants his shoes back!
Yup, maybe Christian called her up on the Lostophone and requested that she send his shoes back into the island's past, so he can find them in the present.
quote:I also think that Jack having to take a "leap of faith" is going to haunt him. This is not in Jack's character.
I'd predict that the arc of Jack's character will end up with him learning to become a "Man of Faith" like Locke.
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quote:I'd predict that the arc of Jack's character will end up with him learning to become a "Man of Faith" like Locke.
If that ends up being the case, I sincerely hope he IS Adam. Both for the religious symmetry and because then I wouldn't have to watch Jack act anything like Locke. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: And I'd bet Hurley showed up because Ben (or maybe another dead person, like Locke) informed him that hundreds of people on the plane would die if he didn't go there and buy all the tickets. Hurley would be compelled to save their lives.
When it comes to Hurley, it's more likely it was Charlie or Libby or Ana Lucia (suddenly I wonder if that's with two n's or one yet don't care enough to check).
quote:
quote:Liking Ben... Huh. That is strange. I like him as an interesting character, but I don't like that, in my opinion anyway, he's ultimately working for himself.
I don't think Ben is selfish. Ben is the classic ends-justifies-the-means character. They haven't really explained what end he is going after, but he seems intent on achieving it no matter who gets hurt in the process. He even gets his daughter killed, after all.
See, I think the end you mention is going to be something Bencentric, and that's where he would be selfish provided this feeling of mine about him rings true.
quote:I bet that we'll find out more about Ben's motives soon, particularly if the Losties are now in Dharam Initiative time.
You meant LaLosties, right? Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:How did Hurley get out of jail and know where to go?
Last weeks episode had a scene where Ben was talking to his lawyer who assured him that Hurley would be cleared and released within a day so I think the first part of the question has already been answered.
The second part of the question, how he knew about the flight, is still up in the air but given how he reacted when Ben got on the plane, I think we can rule out the possibility that Ben was directly involved.
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I'm not enjoying Lost, these days. I hate time travel stories, anyway; and the writing has been awful lately.
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Scott R, I'm with you there. I'll stick with Lost just because I've invested so much in it, but basically I just keep hoping all the frenetic hopping around will stop and we'll get some real story again. There are way too many characters and storylines and not enough time spent on any of them.
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quote:Bring the internet with you when you do. It's totally incomprehensible without help
Not entirely true...but I'll admit it helps clear a lot up, much like extra research on, say, Donnie Darko, or House of Leaves adds to the overall understanding and enjoyment. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: Scott R, I'm with you there. I'll stick with Lost just because I've invested so much in it, but basically I just keep hoping all the frenetic hopping around will stop and we'll get some real story again. There are way too many characters and storylines and not enough time spent on any of them.
weird, I LOVE the time travel aspect of it. In part because the first thing I thought when they started doing this was, "finally everything makes sense".
I've been thinking about the smoke monster recently. Here are some thoughts and facts I've put together:
The smoke monster is sometimes a large black cloud and sometimes just a wisp of black smoke.
It seems mechanical and biological at the same time from the sounds that emanate from it.
We've been led to believe it is some kind of security system that protects the Island. It seems to have the capability of interacting with and judging people. We've also been told that it protects The Temple. The temple is covered in hieroglyphs.
Is the Temple that the smoke monster protects the same temple that the Others went to to be safe at the end of Season 3 through season 4 when the dudes from Widmore's boat came to the Island?
Ben has a door in his house covered with hieroglyphs that can summon the smoke monster.
The sonar fence keeps the smoke monster from crossing it or going over it. Why can't the smoke monster go over it? When was the sonar fence built? It's pretty advanced technology. Was the smoke monster around before then? And if so, what kept it at bay before the fence existed?
So, besides a "security system" what is the smoke monster? how does it interact with people? how does it judge people? We know that the smoke monster can manifest itself as individuals and interact with people(it manifested itself as Yemi to Eko). And it chooses to manifest itself as people that the person has a connection with. It also seems to be able to access a persons memories(the yemi that speaks to Eko knows things about his past. also, when Eko first stands down the smoke monster we see lots of flashes of pictures in the smoke. the flashes seem to be pictures of Eko's past). How related is the smoke monster to the other visions that occur on the Island? Has the smoke monster or the Island accessed all these characters memories in order to judge them and present visions to them that they will understand?
The flashes of light that happen to Eko are similar to the flashes of light that happen when the smoke monster is chasing Juliet and Kate. Though i think those flashes were most directed at Juliet that time.
We know that the smoke monster did something to Rousseau's team to turn them against her, to enact its will.
Some other random thoughts that I think tie into this. Right now the Losties are jumping around in time on the Island. But The Others are immune to this(we know this because Locke was with them when he jumped and they didn't jump with him, and then Richard shows up out of nowhere to help him). And yet, Juliet is jumping in time with the rest of them, and she used to be an Other.
So I think the smoke monster somehow has the power to make someone an Other or de-otherize them. I think that when Juliet and Kate were running away those flashes were the smoke monster de-otherizing Juliet, which is why she's in the same boat as the Losties now. And that it somehow made Rousseau's team Others, or infected them in some way to cause them to do what they did. hmmm..some more thoughts about Juliet. Juliet was branded with that mark by The Others after her plot to kill Ben was found out. I assumes that mark was simply a mark of shame. A punishment. But I'm now thinking there might be a bit more to it. Maybe when the smoke monster was flashing her it was sort of scanning her, and it read that mark almost like a bar code, which is why it de-otherized her.
The smoke monster is also related to Jacob somehow, because we see the puff of black smoke rocking in the chair the first time Locke goes to see him.
Is it possible that some element of the smoke monster always existed but has evolved or changed over time due to events on the Island? Could something Dharma have done changed it? Is there any relation between the hydrogen bomb and the smoke monster? Bear with me, because this is all speculation, but...we know that the creators have filled this series with literary references. I read a series of books when I was younger and there existed these "demons" which took the form of clouds of black smoke. It was eventually revealed that these demons were created from the remnants of nuclear war. From hydrogen bomb explosions that formed together and became conscious evil entities. Another thought is that maybe the bomb is buried under where Jacob's cabin is. There is also another story by a science fiction writer where there are these monsters in the form of black clouds on a distant planet. The clouds turn out to be swarms of insect like micro-machines, a new form of life, born through the evolution of autonomous, self-replicating machines. again, all speculation, but something to think about.
Anyway, I think that's all.
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They already said that the black cloud isn't nanites. That was my first thought back when we first saw it.
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quote:I LOVE the time travel aspect of it. In part because the first thing I thought when they started doing this was, "finally everything makes sense".
Hmm...part of my problem with time-travel stories is that they feel like cheating. I dunno-- I think the mechanism is cheap and cliche. I can't wait for the time-skipping to be over.
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quote:We know that the smoke monster can manifest itself as individuals and interact with people(it manifested itself as Yemi to Eko).
It's sad that I cannot remember this at all. I read "manifest itself as individuals" and was like, "Wuh?" I'll take your word for it instead of going back and watching old episodes in the exactly NO free time I have. XD
With Juliet, though, I don't know that she ever became an Other Other, and so I don't think it de-Otherized her. It would seem more to me that the smoke monster just has that ability to pick and choose, or perhaps, the people who got sucked into time jumping had to be there in the exact time that it all got screwed up. Maybe that's what makes them time jumpers and not anyone else on the Island (at other points in time).
This has nothing to do with your comment, Strider, it's just something funny my brother said the other night as he and a friend of ours were talking Lost over dinner. He pokes his finger at the restaurant table for emphasis and says, "This is only half serious, but I want you both to remember I'm saying it here, now. This is my theory: Black Hole. Black Hole under the Island. You heard it here first. It explains everything." Then we all laughed. Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:I LOVE the time travel aspect of it. In part because the first thing I thought when they started doing this was, "finally everything makes sense".
Hmm...part of my problem with time-travel stories is that they feel like cheating. I dunno-- I think the mechanism is cheap and cliche. I can't wait for the time-skipping to be over.
quote: It would seem more to me that the smoke monster just has that ability to pick and choose, or perhaps, the people who got sucked into time jumping had to be there in the exact time that it all got screwed up.
except Locke was standing around WITH the Others when he started time jumping. But they didn't jump in time with him.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:I LOVE the time travel aspect of it. In part because the first thing I thought when they started doing this was, "finally everything makes sense".
Hmm...part of my problem with time-travel stories is that they feel like cheating. I dunno-- I think the mechanism is cheap and cliche. I can't wait for the time-skipping to be over.
Some other people have complained about the time travel aspect and I'm generally baffled. You've accepted an Island that can cure cancer, take away someone's sterility, make someone be able to walk again, has a black smoke monster that can scan people's memories and manifest itself to them, induce visions in people on the Island, has brought together all these people who have all these mysterious connections in their pasts, is tied to a series of magic numbers, has a cabin that can move in location on the island that may or may not contain some sort of person or spirit with magic powers, a man on it doesn't ever age, a man was instantaneously brought to the Island through a magic box, a character has been able to see outside of time for the last two seasons, there are unexplainable whispers that surround characters at various times, and more...
I'm not sure what is so crazy about the addition of time travel that is fundamentally different from everything else they've shown. What's more, between Desmond and Faraday it seems they've been hinting at this and leading up to this for a while. before it actually happened.
This isn't a judgment on your personal tastes of whether you like or dislike time travel stories. Just curious as to how all that other stuff was cool, and why time travel is suddenly different.
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For me it's simple: just too confusing/disorienting. I feel like my nose is going to start bleeding soon. Although I wasn't thrilled with the Faraday/Desmond stuff hinting that this was coming, either.
I don't necessarily dislike all time travel stories, but somehow it wouldn't have been my preferred resolution to this one.
I think I'd be less bothered if the Island Losties (forgot what we agreed to call them) weren't being whipped around in time so frequently.
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quote: It would seem more to me that the smoke monster just has that ability to pick and choose, or perhaps, the people who got sucked into time jumping had to be there in the exact time that it all got screwed up.
except Locke was standing around WITH the Others when he started time jumping. But they didn't jump in time with him.
Maybe the stipulations are: 1. Other Others don't (or can't) time jump. Any other group that fits stipulation 2 outside the Other Others is fair game. 2. You only time jump if you were present in the time when the Island was moved (and thoroughly screwed up).
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Maybe the Island simply sends whoever back in time that it needs to send back in time. After all, it seems to be able to manipulate events to bring whoever it wants to the island. Maybe it can also bring whoever it wants to the island whenever it wants too.
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quote:I'm not sure what is so crazy about the addition of time travel that is fundamentally different from everything else they've shown. What's more, between Desmond and Faraday it seems they've been hinting at this and leading up to this for a while. before it actually happened.
This isn't a judgment on your personal tastes of whether you like or dislike time travel stories. Just curious as to how all that other stuff was cool, and why time travel is suddenly different.
Because, for me, time travel is inherently uncool.
It's as if Jar Jar Binks has suddenly taken Qui Gon Jin's spot as Obi-wan's trainer.
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quote:I think I'd be less bothered if the Island Losties (forgot what we agreed to call them) weren't being whipped around in time so frequently.
I agree, it was getting to be a bit too much towards the end. I'll be happy for either a slow down or a stoppage.
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: Maybe the Island simply sends whoever back in time that it needs to send back in time. After all, it seems to be able to manipulate events to bring whoever it wants to the island. Maybe it can also bring whoever it wants to the island whenever it wants too.
Here's the thing, and granted the following is only my personal theory, I had postulated earlier the the reason the Island manipulates events to bring certain people to the Island was because from it's perspective, those people exist on the Island at an earlier point in time than when they actually first get to the Island from their own subjective timeline. It tries to bring them to the Island because it KNOWS they need to come to the Island so they can be there when they start time jumping.
BUT, if the Island is also manipulating who is time jumping then it sets up a system without an initial cause in my mind. You may be right, but it then requires another level of explanation as to how or why the Island is doing all this.
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quote:I had postulated earlier the the reason the Island manipulates events to bring certain people to the Island was because from it's perspective, those people exist on the Island at an earlier point in time than when they actually first get to the Island from their own subjective timeline. It tries to bring them to the Island because it KNOWS they need to come to the Island so they can be there when they start time jumping.
This is a good example of why I hate time travel stories. Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: BUT, if the Island is also manipulating who is time jumping then it sets up a system without an initial cause in my mind. You may be right, but it then requires another level of explanation as to how or why the Island is doing all this.
I'm hoping it's not that the Island is choosing who but because the time jumpers fulfill certain requirements. Maybe the Other Others (because their original physical bodies are no longer how they get around? just a guess) are 'immune' to the jumping due to that lack of original physical body. That also might be why they can appear here and there when necessary and disappear just as easily. It makes the time jumping 'thingy' unable to get a good grip on them or something. And I'm going to stick with my earlier surmise that the folks we call the Time Jumpers got sucked in because they are stuck in their original physical bodies and because they were present in the time when the Island got all screwed up.
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posted
I think once you become part of the others you become part of the island. Whether it's the island that is jumping through time relative to those who were "guests" (haha) when Ben turned the wheel, or if it's the guests who are jumping--the Others stay with the island, while the guests are cut loose from the island's timeline.
As for Juliet--the fact that she's jumping seems to indicate that she's a guest. And that's certainly the way that she's always perceived it.
As for the Other Others (does that mean Christian, Clare, &c.?), well, whatever they are now they are not who they were. They were guests...now they're part of the island.
BTW, I think "Jacob" is the island. The island just manifests as something the person being spoken to can recognize. Christian is speaking for Jacob, but actually Christian=Jacob=the island.
Not sure why Ben sees someone named Jacob--where that name originally came from--but it seems like a biblical reference to me...the island isn't Ben's real father, whom he rejected pretty thoroughly, but the father he recognizes?
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quote:I think once you become part of the others you become part of the island. Whether it's the island that is jumping through time relative to those who were "guests" (haha) when Ben turned the wheel, or if it's the guests who are jumping--the Others stay with the island, while the guests are cut loose from the island's timeline.
agreed.
quote:As for Juliet--the fact that she's jumping seems to indicate that she's a guest. And that's certainly the way that she's always perceived it.
maybe, but this doesn't explain the strange way in which the smoke monster interacted with her when she was with Kate. No one has offered an alternative explanation for what happened there. I don't think it's a bad assumption to say that the smoke monster was "de-otherizing" her during that interaction. And the mark may be the reason for the smoke monster taking those actions, thus making her a "guest" now.
quote:BTW, I think "Jacob" is the island. The island just manifests as something the person being spoken to can recognize. Christian is speaking for Jacob, but actually Christian=Jacob=the island.
I agree up to the Christian part. I agree that i think Jacob is a manifestation of the Island and a while ago, possibly last season, I layed out what I think Jacob is. Here's a summation:
quote:my theory has always been that jacob is the island, or the power of the island, manifested. And that Ben has trapped(or someone has) this essence of the island in the cabin. The island gets its power from this weird electromagnetic force right(think of the hatch and numbers)? think about the cabin. it's completely secluded. surrounded by a circle of white ash. ben says jacob hates technology, so there is nothing with power. no lights, nothing. when locke and ben go visit jacob for the first time everything is calm until jacob says help me(it seems like getting those words out were a real strain). when he says that locke flips on his flashlight and everything goes crazy and things are flying around the room. the chair is rocking. you can see a puff of black smoke rocking back in forth in the chair. my theory is that this essence of the island is trapped in the cabin, cut off from its power source. it draws power from lockes flashlight and uses it for itself. And just manifests itself as this Jacob persona.
I don't agree that Christian=Jacob=the island. I do think christian is speaking for jacob but if the island is manifesting itself as people the character recognize(which it HAS done often) why would it manifest itself to Locke as Jack's dad? I think Christian has a different connection with the Island, as do maybe all dead people, particularly ones whose bodies are on the Island maybe? Miles can obviously connect to them.
posted
Strider, that Jacob theory seems to somewhat fit one that my boyfriend holds, that...oh crap...I can't remember what philosophy/religion/folklore it's based on. Um...okay, in extremely vague terms, that some 'demon' (take that to mean good, bad or neutral) is trapped on the Island. Now, if I could just remember what it's based on. Argh.
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Time travel creates most of the complications in the story, but explains why certain people can't die. I think these people are caught in a causal loop. They make decisions that create problems in the objective past, which would be their subjective future, due to time travel that they are not aware of yet, or hasn't happened yet. They can't die because then something along the lines of the "grandfather paradox" would come into effect, though the problem is not nearly that simple.
This is why Micheal was allowed to die. He fixed a causal loop by allowing the O6 to escape the Kahana. In previous "iterations" this didn't happen. Of course, they have to come back to fix another causal loop.
Causal loops also explain the "undead." These are people who lived through previous iterations, but died in the current one. They can't be allowed to let go yet because there is something specific that they have to do in order to fix the loop. Their current attempt to fix the causal loop is a failure because the specific actions necessary can't be completed, but their "consciousness" or whatever it is, is preserved by an unknown physical universal law, until the loop can restart.
None of this explains why some people, like Desmond and Eloise Hawking, are immune to the universe's laws, or why there seem to be spirits attached to the Island.
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Just in case anyone's interested, I've been studying the clips of Ben reading Ulysses in "316", and based what the left-hand page looks like, I'm almost positive he's reading pages 100-101 (but focusing mainly on 101.)
update: edited for accuracy! 2/28
This is in the middle of the " Hades" chapter, which takes place as the main character, Bloom, is traveling to his friend Paddy Dignam's funeral. The chapter is supposed to parallel Odysseus' journey through the Underworld. On page 100 (beginning with "Mr Power pointed" on Page 11 of the link I provided) some of the mourners are riding in a carriage past a row of townhouses, and discussing a man who murdered his own brother earlier in the week. Towards the end of the page, they arrive where the coffin of their friend, Paddy Dignam, is being removed from the hearse carriage.
On page 101, Bloom (the point-of-view character of the chapter) ponders the multitude of funerals taking place everyday everywhere, and then watches Dignam's crying wife and daughter approach the casket as the pallbearers lift it and start walking it towards the church. The men walking in front of Bloom begin to discuss Bloom's father's suicide (!). Then Bloom, who hasn't heard their discussion, asks if the dead man's family was insured. "--How many children did he leave?" is the last line on the page.
I don't know how (if) any of this is significant, but I was particularly interested in the funereal setting and especially the mention of a suicide, given Locke's death
edit: it's also worth mentioning that within this chapter, a mysterious "13th Mourner" appears at Dignam's graveside, whom no one recognizes and who is never identified throughout the rest of the novel.
posted
Also of possible note, there's a theory going around on Lostpedia that Locke and Ben are supposed to represent Abel and Cain, respectively. Would tie in with the "murdering your brother" mention in UlyssesPosts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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The thing that did not disappointment me last night was that the previews really didn't give away John's suicide...because it never happened. Tricky.
Another thing the episode made me think a lot about was the nature of the conflict and relationship between Widmore and Ben, and stemming from that, how they connect to the Island and to John and everyone else. What makes nailing anything down so difficult is that both Charles and Ben like to tell a mix of lies and truth. At least, that's how it seems to me.
Did anyone else get a kick out of how freaked out Hurley was when he found out Locke was REAL?!
Back to Ben, though... Sure, we all know he's capable of murder and all that jazz, but I think it's important to know what triggered the decision to commit it. I'm tempted to say it was not the mention of Eloise (though that certainly added a nail to the coffin) but Locke's revealing of the promise to Jin to not bring Sun back. I think Ben was already committed to the plan to bring the LaLosties back to the island, and when he realized he wouldn't be able to manipulate John (with a high probability of success), he decided to go with plan b, to take over the task himself and get John out of the way. Thoughts?
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I was trying to come up with motivations for Ben to talk Locke out of killing himself just to kill him minutes later and make it look like a suicide.
1. Ben needed information from John before he died. I don't think this is it, because he seemed surprised by Jin being alive and he already knew about Eloise Hawking.
2. Ben (and Eloise?) knew that John needed to die, but would never be able to pull it off himself. Remember, he couldn't kill his father that he hated. So Ben went to make sure the job got done. On the other hand, it would have been easier for him just to kick the table out from under John, rather than talking him down and then strangling him.
3. Ben meant everything he said about helping John get the people back to the island, until he discovered that John had been instructed to meet Eloise. For some reason, Ben couldn't allow that to happen, so he immediately switched to a backup plan of killing John.
4. Ben is just a psychopath and kills just to kill. This isn't consistent with anything else we've seen about his character, though. The one constant we can rely on with Ben is that he always has a reason for doing what he does.
I think 3 is the most likely of those. It will be interesting to see where they go with all of this.
posted
Traceria, your post wasn't there when I started typing. I think I agree with you about Ben's motivation, at least in general. I'm sure we'll find out more of the specifics in the coming episodes.
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: I think I'd be less bothered if the Island Losties (forgot what we agreed to call them) weren't being whipped around in time so frequently.
I think that is necessary - it is the frenetic nature of the jumping that creates the sense of urgency toward getting everyone back.
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quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: Traceria, your post wasn't there when I started typing. I think I agree with you about Ben's motivation, at least in general. I'm sure we'll find out more of the specifics in the coming episodes.
--Mel
Yeah, I think in combination with your number three (mention of Eloise was just another check on Ben's list), we've got a likely motivation. Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Rewatching the clip, I think its clear that it is something in the mention of Eloise Hawking that triggers Ben's attack on Locke. I have no idea exactly what that might be, but its pretty clear that her name was the trigger.
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I don't know. His reaction came so quickly after the Eloise mention that I can't imagine it was that, or *only* that. Ben had a similar look on his face when Locke mentioned Jin being alive.
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This is the second time that Ben has tried killing Locke. The first time it was because Locke heard Jacob, and Ben was jealous. I think it's likely that this is the same situation - Ben realizes how deep Locke is in the scheme of things because he knows who Hawking is. So he gets jealous and kills him.
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quote:Originally posted by The Reader: Time travel creates most of the complications in the story, but explains why certain people can't die. I think these people are caught in a causal loop. They make decisions that create problems in the objective past, which would be their subjective future, due to time travel that they are not aware of yet, or hasn't happened yet. They can't die because then something along the lines of the "grandfather paradox" would come into effect, though the problem is not nearly that simple.
This is why Micheal was allowed to die. He fixed a causal loop by allowing the O6 to escape the Kahana. In previous "iterations" this didn't happen. Of course, they have to come back to fix another causal loop.
Causal loops also explain the "undead." These are people who lived through previous iterations, but died in the current one. They can't be allowed to let go yet because there is something specific that they have to do in order to fix the loop. Their current attempt to fix the causal loop is a failure because the specific actions necessary can't be completed, but their "consciousness" or whatever it is, is preserved by an unknown physical universal law, until the loop can restart.
It also explains why Ben wouldn't let people leave. Juliette really wanted to go be with her sister, but Ben wouldn't let her. Ben is trying to fix the continuity and he needs Juliette there.
Ben and Whitmore could be fighting to see that the loop resolves their own ways.
Whitmore killed Ben's daughter, Ben said "You changed the rules." Maybe Ben's daughter was supposed to survive regardless of the outcome of the loop? Now that won't happen.
Jacob could be the guy at the far end of the loop who's helping Ben course correct. As if to say "Ok, this change had an unfavorable outcome, you need to fix it." or "Kill this guy or he'll doom the whole project."
I like this theory.
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posted
I'm trying to patch together various pieces.
1. Jack, Kate and Hurley were some how teleported from the plane space/time to the island surface, roughly 30 years ago and are now in the same time frame as Jin and presumably the other time jumpers.
2. Locke, Ben, and Frank stayed with the plane and the strangers on the plane. No clear what time frame they are in. One clue as to time frame was the boats on the shore. Were there two or three boats with the jumpers found them? Another clues might be the stuff they found in the Dharma site.
3. We still have no idea where and when Sun and Sayid ended up.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Rewatching the clip, I think its clear that it is something in the mention of Eloise Hawking that triggers Ben's attack on Locke. I have no idea exactly what that might be, but its pretty clear that her name was the trigger.
Did you watch his eyes and the look on his face when John was talking about Jin and Sun, though?
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quote:Originally posted by Traceria: Did anyone else get a kick out of how freaked out Hurley was when he found out Locke was REAL?!
hah, yeah, but I got more of a kick from his reaction to Locke saying he wasn't dead. The look he gave him was priceless. Like a pitied sort of look for the poor guy who doesn't even realize he's dead. Btw, Locke comes to see Hurley probably right after Charlie appears to him in that vision from the premier of season 4. Hurley is sitting in the same place, wearing the same clothing, drawing the same picture. This is partly why Hurley isn't surprised to see Locke and assumes he's dead.
quote:Back to Ben, though... Sure, we all know he's capable of murder and all that jazz, but I think it's important to know what triggered the decision to commit it. I'm tempted to say it was not the mention of Eloise (though that certainly added a nail to the coffin) but Locke's revealing of the promise to Jin to not bring Sun back.
quote:This is the second time that Ben has tried killing Locke. The first time it was because Locke heard Jacob, and Ben was jealous. I think it's likely that this is the same situation - Ben realizes how deep Locke is in the scheme of things because he knows who Hawking is. So he gets jealous and kills him.
I think you guys are right on with this assessment. Ben's demeanor changes at the mention of Jin. I'm assuming because once he knows that Jin is alive he figures he can get Sun to come back. And if he can get Sun to come back he's one step closer to bringing them all back?
But he flips at the mention of Hawking. And I think like previously with Jacob, he's threatened by Locke's place within this power struggle. If he meets Hawking Locke may take Ben's place as number two in the organization.
Ben's motivations are completely baffling to me right now(as well as Widmore's, but i'll get to him soon). I'm pretty sure Ben does things for two reasons. For his own benefit, and for the benefit of the Island. Why stop Locke from killing himself to then murder him, and proceed to carry on the mission that Locke was on? And then bring Locke's dead body to the Islad where it gets resurrected? He kills Locke and then just does what Locke was going to do anyway.
One aspect of this is clear to me. Ben was not aware of the fact that Locke was told by Richard he would have to die to bring everyone back. If he had been aware of this, I don't know if he would've killed Locke, because he would've known that that's what Richard wanted to happen.
I'm a bit confused as to Ben's knowledge of whether Locke will be resurrected or not. He takes actions to keep Locke's body preserved, and brings it with them. Is it only because Mrs. Hawking told him it's part of the recreation? Or does he know more?
Abaddon
So we finally found out the mystery of Abaddon, and I'm actually kind of pissed at myself for not figuring it out earlier. We KNOW that Abaddon works for Widmore, it all should've clicked two episodes ago. Whidmore met locke in the 50s. He knows that Locke needs to go to the Island. Abaddon works for Widmore. He gets Locke to the Island. It's all so simple.
I have one question though. When Widmore introduces Abaddon and Locke he doesn't acknowledge their meeting in the past, and after a second or two of pause where Locke seems to be about to mention it, he decides against it and just shakes Abaddon's hand. Why?
I'm still curious as to what happened on Abaddon's walkabout. He talks about a miracle occuring right?
Widmore(and Ben)
These two are just great. I have no idea what's going on. They both seem to lie and tell the truth at will. They both seem to have their own interests in mind, as well as the Island's. I mean...Widmore is the one responsible for Locke getting to the Island in the first place. This changes everything we've been led to believe about him. Not to say he's suddenly a "good guy". But his motives are a lot more layered now.
How does Widmore know Locke(or someone) will show up at the exit point? Why is he monitoring it? Why wasn't he monitoring when Ben showed up? When did he start monitoring? Does Locke time jump again on the Island and tell him to be there(i'll get into this later).
Locke
We were reminded this episode how easily manipulated Locke can be. This was quintessential off Island Locke. It seems like all these different factions are vying for control of Locke and he's too weak to take control himself. Granted, all the Losties are sort of a mess off Island(pre and post crash) but Locke particularly so.
How does Richard know Locke has to die to bring everyone back? Does Jacob tell him? Does he just know? Or does Locke tell him?
Here are my thoughts about Locke. We don't know exactly when it was that Locke jumped to when Richard came out of the forest to help fix his leg up. But we know that Richard knew exactly where and when to be. Which means that Locke(or someone) must've told him. We know that in their conversation in the 50s Locke didn't get a chance to tell this to Richard, so it has to happen at some other point. Does Locke time jump to a point in the past and tell Richard about being killed by Ben, where to be the help him, and does he also tell Widmore where to be to help him when he ends up in Tunisia?
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'm trying to patch together various pieces.
1. Jack, Kate and Hurley were some how teleported from the plane space/time to the island surface, roughly 30 years ago and are now in the same time frame as Jin and presumably the other time jumpers.
2. Locke, Ben, and Frank stayed with the plane and the strangers on the plane. No clear what time frame they are in. One clue as to time frame was the boats on the shore. Were there two or three boats with the jumpers found them? Another clues might be the stuff they found in the Dharma site.
3. We still have no idea where and when Sun and Sayid ended up.
1. yup
2. yeah, i think they are in the future(or present) of the Island. There are two boats there(though they said there were 3 and one was taken). These are the same two boats that the time jumpers run across, and when they find them they are by the old beach camp. For the beach camp to be set up and yet have no survivors around it must be at a future point after time jumping began.
3. I'd be willing to bet that Sun is the woman who took the boat with Lapidus and ran off. I'm guessing Sayid has gone commando in the forest.
I had postulated last week(though not here I think) that the Jack, Kate, and Hurley were in a different time period from the rest of the people on the plane. partly because if they were all together on the Island during the time of dharma there wouldn't really be any impetus to get back to their present time period. BUT, if they were separated in time, then there would be motivation to find each other...especially if Jin and Sun were separated in time. Also with the bits of clues like knowing the Arija airways water bottle was in the future, implying some people from the plane were in the future time period.
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest:
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: Time travel creates most of the complications in the story, but explains why certain people can't die. I think these people are caught in a causal loop. They make decisions that create problems in the objective past, which would be their subjective future, due to time travel that they are not aware of yet, or hasn't happened yet. They can't die because then something along the lines of the "grandfather paradox" would come into effect, though the problem is not nearly that simple.
This is why Micheal was allowed to die. He fixed a causal loop by allowing the O6 to escape the Kahana. In previous "iterations" this didn't happen. Of course, they have to come back to fix another causal loop.
Causal loops also explain the "undead." These are people who lived through previous iterations, but died in the current one. They can't be allowed to let go yet because there is something specific that they have to do in order to fix the loop. Their current attempt to fix the causal loop is a failure because the specific actions necessary can't be completed, but their "consciousness" or whatever it is, is preserved by an unknown physical universal law, until the loop can restart.
It also explains why Ben wouldn't let people leave. Juliette really wanted to go be with her sister, but Ben wouldn't let her. Ben is trying to fix the continuity and he needs Juliette there.
Ben and Whitmore could be fighting to see that the loop resolves their own ways.
Whitmore killed Ben's daughter, Ben said "You changed the rules." Maybe Ben's daughter was supposed to survive regardless of the outcome of the loop? Now that won't happen.
Jacob could be the guy at the far end of the loop who's helping Ben course correct. As if to say "Ok, this change had an unfavorable outcome, you need to fix it." or "Kill this guy or he'll doom the whole project."
I like this theory.
I really don't like the idea of causal loops and to be honest, don't completely understand them.
What about anything going on makes it a loop? Or implies these events keep repeating themselves in time? They only do that if you look at the events from the perspective of "Locke shows up on the island in the 50s and does stuff. then 50 years later he crashes on the island. then he goes back in time. then 50 years later he crashes". But that's only a trick of how we've been shown the events, the order in which we've been told this story. in my mind events in time happen. and that's it. they happen once and only once. how does someone get stuck in a causal loop? are they consciously aware of the iterations? so their bodies are always knew but their consciousnesses are old?
lets take the time jumping losties for example. let say they get Back to the Future™ and live out the rest of their days on the Island. So from their subjective experience, the lived their lives, crashed on the island, jumped around in time, got back to their present and lived the rest of their lives. from the island's point of view, these people appear on it at various points in time from the 1950s to the 2000s, and then at some point crash on the island. stay for 100 days. disappear. reappear. then live out their lives. sure, this is a hypothetical, and not likely where the show will go, but what bout these events indicate a loop that iterates?
I guess i want to separate the idea of a causal loop from the idea of iterations. I don't think a causal loop would imply that. I get that by time jumping their subjective future selves affect their present selves. Actions that happen in the past are integral to bringing about the future even though they are caused by these people in their subjective future. Here's some stuff from wikipedia:
quote:A predestination paradox, also called either a causal loop, or a causality loop and (less frequently) either a closed loop or closed time loop, is a paradox of time travel that is often used as a convention in science fiction. It exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveller attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past. Effectively, it means this: the time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened. It is very closely related to the ontological paradox and usually occurs at the same time.
The predestination paradox is in some ways the opposite of the grandfather paradox, the famous example of the traveller killing their own grandfather before his parent is conceived, thereby precluding his own travel to the past by canceling his own existence.
In physics, the Novikov self-consistency principle proposes that contradictory causal loops cannot form, but that consistent ones can. In a physical sense, a self-consistent causal loop of this kind is not actually a paradox because it produces a logically consistent result rather than a contradictory one. It is only perceived as a paradox because it goes against conventional expectations and assumptions about causality.
Emphasis mine. In this way I agree with a causal loop theory. But not an iteration theory. Iterations from my point of view are impossible.
One more thing. Tunisia is the exit point of the Island. Tunisia is where Carthage was. Carthage was mentioned by Charlotte in her babbling. I was also thinking that maybe the 4 toed statue is connect to Carthage and one of their gods?
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Actually, the point where they come out of the island is closer to Tatooine than it is to Carthage. Posts: 324 | Registered: Mar 2008
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Wow, Strider, you never cease to amaze me with your Lost thoughts! I'm kind of glad I managed to post first because now there are too many thoughts running through my head than I can possibily organize to comment on! So, I'm picking one of yours, commenting, and then adding one other interesting thought.
quote:in my mind events in time happen. and that's it. they happen once and only once.
I'd rather it be this way, for it's the one that makes the most sense to me in and outside of Lost.
Something you said made me remember this, so thanks! What my boyfriend and I found interesting is the potential for history to repeat itself. What I mean by that is, if people need to be brought to (originally or for a second time) the Island (something Abaddon says he does for Widmore), and Arija flight 316 (John 3:16. Heh.) was a way to bring back the LaLosties yet also brought others to the Island for their first visit, it begs the question of how many other plane or boat or [pick a mode of transportation, any mode of transportation] were used to return people to island but which also 'trapped' new visitors into being Island dwellers as well. Just an interesting thought, a possibility.
Edit: Specifically, we were wondering about flight 815. Was anyone on that flight returning to the Island, by chance?
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