posted
I dont really remember but I thought it was Sirius. I cant remember where I read this but I thought that Sirius arrived (because he knew where it was because he was the origanal secret keeper) and then left when he figured out what happened to find Pettigrew?
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posted
Hagrid had Sirius's motorcycle when he brought Harry to Dumbledore, so I think that Sirius was indeed first.
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posted
Reading this thread it seems clear to me that everyone has there own opinions of how Horcrux's are made / incanted. Even though no discription has been given in the books as to how it is done.
So, I'd like those who have an idea of how the spell would work to post. Because without some logical description that LV could have cast the spell, I don't see how Harry could be a Horcrux.
First let me iterate what we know / don't know. And then I'll share how I see a horcrux spell being cast. It would be geat if you could add / delete from the list of things we know / don't know and share how you see the horcrux spell being cast.
1. LV has learned how to make Horcruxes 2. Very few magicians know how to do this 3. It is very uncommon for living being to be made horcruxes 4. We know that one part of the spell is killing someone with an unforgivable curse. 4a. Killing someone without completing the spell or doesn't make a horcrux. 4b. Completing the spell but not killing someone doesn't make a horcrux either. 5. Other than this we have no idea how the spell is cast. 6. After the curse aimed to kill HP LV was practically dead. 7. We don't know if this means one part of his soul has been destroyed. 8. He was probably intending to use the murder of HP to make a final horcrux. 9. Subsequently, he has made Nagini into a horcrux.
Horcrux Spell Choice one: 1. Whole incantation prior to murder which makes an object (or other) the receptical of the fragment of soul. 2. At the point of the murder the soul is split and is 'captured' by the object.
Choice two: 1. Incantation to prepare object (or other) 2. Murder and fragment of soul created 3. Further incantation to capture soul in object
Choice three: 2. Murder and fragment of soul created 3. Whole incantation to capture fragement of soul in an object.
quote:We're still looking for a magical item tied to Godric Gryffindor. That could be the sword or the sorting hat, but how about a hippogriff? It would be deliciously ironic if Harry was forced to slay horcrux Witherwings. Maybe they renamed Buckbeak, not because it has wings on its withers, but because its wings are going to wither.
Man, that would be the stupidest thing to happen in any book ever.
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Sirius sounds like the right answer. If Sirius and Hagrid were the first ones on the scene, they probably would have picked up any significant magical artifacts that belonged to Gryffindor.
The fact that Dumbledore never mentioned any members of the Order of Phoenix finding a magical artifact at Godric's Hollow leads me to speculate that Godric's magical item was probably destroyed during the horcrux spell, and a bit of Voldy's soul was imprinted into Harry's scar.
The other possibility is that a death eater showed up and picked up the Griffindor Horcrux. Maybe RAB or Snape? This is less likely because I think Dumbledore would have mentioned the missing artifact to Harry during their lessons.
If Harry (or his scar) is the horcrux, then we are left with many interesting possibilities. What if the horcrux spell does not allow the horcrux to destroy itself or, in this case, himself.
Then Harry could destroy all of Voldemort's other horcruxes and never eradicate Voldermort's soul from our world. Then we may also have a war between the Order of the Phoenix and the Ministry of Magic. You just know the new Minister of Magic wouldn't think twice about killing Harry.
The last scene would be Harry contemplating suicide by jumping through the same veil that Sirius fell through. But thanks to the love of his friends, he is able to fight that temptation and live out the rest of his life with the knowledge that Voldemort will always be a small part of him.
The last battle will be a battle inside Harry's own soul, as a sliver of Voldemort's soul tries to take control over Harry's body (think of this take over spell as a code red fail safe that is activated when all other horcruxes are destroyed).
Then we will see why it was so important for Harry to learn so much about Tom Riddle in book 6.
/rant
[ August 12, 2005, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
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posted
I just finshed the book and i have a supposition. I didn't read this thread before, so there is maybe others who had this one.
I had an idea because of three facts : first, when i read the snake was an horcrux, i realise that horcrux may be also a living thing ; secondly, Voldemort must kill to product a horcrux ; and thirdly, Harry is linked with Voldemort such as they may read in their minds. So for me, when Voldemort killed harry's mum and dad, he fixed a horcrux on harry as his scare. He do that just as he realised the power of mother's love destroyed him. That can explain many thing : why harry can speak the parseltongue, why the prophecy said that Voldemort "mark" them as his equal (if he has a part of the voldemort, it is actually his equal). No ? And i forget that there is an unidentified horcrux... (Griffindor or Ravenclaw's one)
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posted
If Voldemort made Nagini into a Horcrux when he killed Frank, why didn't anything indicating that come out of his wand when he and Harry were having their duel in the fourth book? Maybe it isn't done with a wand.
posted
Voldemort also gave Pettigrew a new arm with his wand. Was there anything special indicating a shadow of that spell during the priori incantatem? I don't have my book with me so I can't check.
Choobak, glad to see a fellow scar-horcrux convert. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
And I wonder If Dumbledore did a Horcrux too by his own death... It may explain the real sens of the argue with snape : he asked him to kill him... After that Voldemort believe that Dumbledore is dead. you see what i mean ? And that can also explain, why he petrified harry, why he had no real fear at the end (or just with snape for the comedy). But what is his horcrux in this case ?
Just a supposition...
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quote:Voldemort also gave Pettigrew a new arm with his wand. Was there anything special indicating a shadow of that spell during the priori incantatem? I don't have my book with me so I can't check.
I do recall a hand coming out of the wand at the beginning of the priori incantatem scene.
I had a thought: Dumbledore was the secret keeper for the Order. What happens to those secrets now?
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posted
Naw. Dumbledore is well and truly dead. I don't believe you can make a Horcrux with your own death - I think it has to be murder. It's Dark magic, doing it twists you and Dumbledore would not twist himself.
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posted
fire against fire... But i think you're right, Olivet. Nevertheless... I want to have the french translation to inspect details deeper than i can in english...
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quote:Originally posted by Beren One Hand: Thanks for the help guys.
The last scene would be Harry contemplating suicide by jumping through the same veil that Sirius fell through. But thanks to the love of his friends, he is able to fight that temptation and live out the rest of his life with the knowledge that Voldemort will always be a small part of him.
The last battle will be a battle inside Harry's own soul, as a sliver of Voldemort's soul tries to take control over Harry's body (think of this take over spell as a code red fail safe that is activated when all other horcruxes are destroyed).
Then we will see why it was so important for Harry to learn so much about Tom Riddle in book 6.
/rant
I very much doubt this. Dumbledore made it clear that the 7th (or first-depending on how you look at it) part of LV's sould is LV himself. And that the reason LV wasn't killed when his spell backfired was because of the other horcruxes he made. He can't be killed until the horcruxes are destroyed and that is what Harry will have to do in the next book leading up to the conclusion.
So LV couldn't be destryed and that last part of him remain in Harry's scar.
I don't really agree with/like the idea of Horcrux Harry/scar, but I guess I can see the logic. And I guess it makes sense because JKR is very good at introducing topics or items well before they become important. Besides, she has said that the last word in the final book would be "scar".
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posted
Beren One Hand there was someone else at Godrics Hollow that night other than Hagrid or Sirius. Presumably a death eater as that person gave LV back his wand. this death eater could have removed an object of gryffindors.
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posted
rivka, most of my books are in storage too. I'm very glad that you will be getting yours. In honor of you getting your books back. . . Posts: 747 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I guess I need to change missions, because I can see now I'll never destroy the Horcrux Harry theory. Toooo bad. While I don't see merit in it, as explained several times before, it's obvious this theory isn't going to die out. The only thing I can vehemently defend is that Dumbly is dead and he never did or would make a horcrux. That much is certain.
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Akhocky- I don't think Harry is entirely a horcrux, but I don't see how you could completely discount the idea that something that happened while Voldemort was trying to make a horcrux (form a significant death, such as the death of his prophesied enemy) resulted in Harry being connected to part of Voldemort's soul. He could see through the snake's eyes, he's a Parselmouth, his scar hurts when Voldemort is around...
Just so long as you hang around for the crow a l'orange when book seven comes out. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I'm with Olivet. Harry's connection with Voldemort has never been clearly explained. I think we've just been told that no one has ever survived such an attack before so no one really knows how that connection works.
JKR rarely leave important things like that unexplained. So it is very possible that their connection is formed by a misfired horcrux spell.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
On Dumbledore: I think he's probably dead but not gone. That is, I don't think he made a horcrux or will just be revived somehow. But there's always been talk of "the ones you love are never truly gone" and such. At the minimum there's his portrait, but there may also be some signifigance to the fact that he wanted his final resting place to be Hogwarts, which was mentioned as never being done before. There's also the possibility that phoenixes are a form of afterlife for powerful enough wizards. He may still be around in the vague sort of way like Harry's patronus is his father's animagus form.
Different subject though: Was anyone else bothered by Harry's decisions at the end of the book? Pushing Ginny away struck me as particularly stupid, what with how many times he's been told that love is the one great magic he has that Voldemort doesn't. His response toward the ministry seemed short-sighted as well. I wouldn't be happy with them in his place, but they could have been a source for resources and information helping his hunt for V's horcruxes, and he probably could have dictated his terms to get what he wanted without them getting in the way. Now they'll probably be more of an obstacle than an ally.
posted
I could see Harry shunting the MoM, especially with his pointed comment about Stan Shunpike's arrest. I don't see what purpose they'd serve later on, they seem to be taking a very "duck and cover" stance in regards to the scary stuff that's happening.
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posted
But what kind of alliance can Harry have with the Ministry considering that vile woman Umbridge is still working for them?
I do think Harry should've been more diplomatic in his dealings with the Ministry. I mean, there are a lot of good people working there and, like you pointed out, they could have been a great source of information.
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posted
Most of those people seemed to already be in the Order, so that information would have already been exchanged, I'd think.
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The question is, will they share the information with Harry?
He's going to have to convince them that his going after LV alone is sane. Who's likely to believe him?
I'd guess Lupin and Tonks, maybe Mad-Eye, and no one else.
Imagine McGonegal's reaction. Unless Dumbledore's death creates a major change in everyone's personalities - and it might - I don't see much help from the order.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
All the ministry seemed to want from Harry was the publicity. I don't think he should have said "Sure, I'll do what you guys want" but he could have offered his morale raising approval in exchange for Stan's release and access to ministry archives, top-secret records, and such. He wouldn't want to let them know what his real plan against V is, because it could leak out. But an official public story of "Potter is working for the Ministry now" would be a good cover story. V has to know the ministry isn't on the right track to defeat him, so if the DEs think Harry's taking their guidance in the matter it makes him seem like less of a threat.
But of course, that's far less dramatic than one boy and his two friends going it alone in the face of adversity, so it didn't happen. Logic takes a back seat to storytelling, once again.
I do wonder how involved Harry will be with the rest of the order of the phoenix, though. There are too many good characters there for them to be completely shut out of book 7, but if they do too much it decreases the "time to be a man and handle things myself" theme for Harry.
posted
"But an official public story of "Potter is working for the Ministry now" would be a good cover story."
I think that's an excellent point. Harry can go around looking for horcruxes while some guy (Percy would be perfect for this) goes around making public speeches for the ministry as "the chosen one."
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posted
Ok just thought of something re Harry as Horcrux theory. Thecnically speaking it was LVs own spell that caused his downfall. If he had not made the hocruxes he would have died. does inflicting Avada Kedavra on oneself constitute suicide and would it be counted as a form of murder? if this is so then LVs soul would have split when his own curse hit him. could this soul fragment have been transferred to Harry???
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posted
But LV didnt know he was doing it. He didnt anticipate that Lilys dying to save Harry would leave a lingering protection. LV didnt know the spell would rebound on himself.
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Okay. I get what you were saying. Sounds plausible. I'm sure that something like that is probably what happened. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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While i keep thinking RAB is Regulus black I cant help thinking that might be a bit too easy. Some people have suggested these people Mr borgin.(has shown dislike of death eaters in past and also knew LV) Aberforth Dombledore(may have used his middle initials and JKR said we would find out more about him in book seven)
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posted
She seems to be hinting fairly strongly that it's a Death Eater, which Borgin isn't and I sincerely doubt Aberforth Dumbledore is. Harry says in the fifth book that only Death Eaters refer to Voldemort as the Dark Lord, and the note addresses him as the Dark Lord. Also Regulus Black's name pops up a number of times in the sixth book. Also there is the locket in Grimmauld Place. Also JK Rowling said she suspected one of the Horcruxes would have been correctly identified within a week of the book's publication. So Regulus is a fair bet.
posted
Yeah you're probably right plus the fact that Regulus had access to Kreacher whom is the only person short of a child I think, who would not be recognised by the boat in the cave. Regulus would have needed an accomplice to feed him the potion or vice versa. This could also explain why he was trying to save the objects in Grimmauld Place. Could he have been after the locket?
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posted
So since the amulet in Grimmwald place is the most likely horcrux for the readers to already know about, who wants to bet that it's the last one Harry actually finds?
posted
Ok, here's a theory on a different subject that I've been thinking about.
Wouldn't Dumbledore want to give Harry as much assistance as possible in his task, especially if he knew that he (Dumbledore) wouldn't be around to help?
I would very much like to see Harry be left some or all of Dumbledore's possesions in much the same way Sirius left Harry his stuff.
For example, what if Dumbledore had been saving memories in a cabinet that he leaves to Harry with the pensieve?
What if there is some significance to those silver instruments that are always running in D's office that Harry never knows what they do?
What if D wants to teach Harry some of the magical traces detection methods that he used in the cave to figure out what V had done?
I think there are many possibilities that would be beneficial to Harry and also make for a good story.
Most of all, I would very much like to see Harry get the Pensieve.
One more thing... what do you think of the posibility of Harry gaining more information from D's painting in the headmaster's office? I know there are some theories that D will be coming back, but just for now, let's assume he's not.
Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Having just re-read GoF, I've got one more food-for-thought question:
Who owns the old Riddle House? Could that play a factor? I don't know how, but that seems like an innocent little line, and I think we can all agree that with JKR, any innocent little line can be a huge clue Posts: 162 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I'd suggest that everyone (who listens to podcasts) check out the mugglecast podcast that's available through itunes. They talked about some of the issues we discuss here. You can also find it through mugglenet.com, i think.
Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
This discussion just kinda stopped. I thought I'd make a post to bring it back up to the top to see if anyone else would like to continue discussing this.
Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Something that struck me as really obvious -- and made me mad as I read it because if it is true, it will cheapen Dumbledore's death -- that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned here is that before the other Death Eaters and Snape arrive, Dumbledore spends quite some time telling Malfoy how if Malfoy comes to the right side, Dumbledore can hide him so well that everyone will have thought he had died in the attempt of killing Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore had a trick up his sleeve, but I guess I could just be in shock. Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Who brought Harry to Dumbledore after Voldemort killed his parents?
They were in hiding. The hiding place was a secret that only Pettigrew (and the Death Eaters he told) knew. Harry was the only one left alive and he was a baby. Yet somehow Dumbledore gets Harry and the whole wizarding world learns that Voldemort has been vanquished.
So with that build up, here is my guess.
Snape was present when Harry's parents were murdered and he took Harry to Dumbledore. That is why Dumbledore trusts Snape.
I'm going to speculate even further. I think Snape's love for Lilly wasn't just admiration from afar. I think that at one point Severus and Lilly were an item and their break up is intimately connected with Snape becoming a Death Eater (either the cause or the effect or some of both).
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