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My prediction: Not only will book 7 be long but it will also take along time before it comes out Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Snape using the AK curse really did a number on me too--I thought, like the Cruciatus Curse, it needed a lot of hate aimed toward the victim to work properly. And I skimmed over the chapter again--Snape's face was full of hatred.
I could be totally wrong about this, though. I really, really, don't want Snape to be evil.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I finished the second time 'round just now, and I've got a few (very spoilerific) thoughts to add...
I completely agree with the Regulus Black thing. I saw that note and almost jumped up screaming (but didn't - it was 3 in the morning, after all) that it had to be Regulus. He did, after all, leave the Death Eaters and then die.
Snape. Oh, Snape. I think that should be a curse word or something. My immediate impression was of disgust and that he really WAS a lying, back-stabbing traitor, and an evil git to boot. Then I remembered the Unbreakable Vow. There was no way - NO WAY - Draco was actually going to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore's words had far too great an impact on young Draco. And since Dumbledore kept putting off Harry's suspicions about Snape and Draco, and since Snape knew Voldemort's plan for Draco and swore that Vow with Narcissa, Snape had to kill Dumbledore. I'm not prepared to forgive him, let alone ever like or respect the poncy git again, but it should make for an interesting Act 3 in Book 7.
I cheered out loud at the following: Harry beating Hermione on the DADA OWL; Harry not beating himself up too much over Sirius' death; Tonks madly in love with Remus (!); the DADA job actually being jinxed; Kingsley being the best worker in the Other Minister's office; and Harry's Slytherin side emerging. I also really liked Kreacher and Dobby fighting.
I still hate Ginny. There's no justification there! So what if Harry gets a fluttery feeling in his stomach when she pets him? He's a 16-year-old boy! Of course a pretty girl is going to make him wobbly in the knees!
That said, I really liked Mr. and Mrs. Weasley's interactions through the door - the whole "Mollywobbles" bit was absolutely adorable.
And I'm not too proud to admit I cried at Dumbledore's funeral.
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I cried when Dumbledore cried. When he died I had to seclude myself in my room and scream at the walls in sorrow.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Not only did Regulus die, but someone has been stealing artifacts from the Black estate. See the plot thread? *grin*
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Actually considering that, he resisted doing alot of things I don't think I could've (being a 15 year-old boy). Like when all the girls were trying to get him under the mistletoe and he was doing his best not to, I don't think many teen boys would have resisted that Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
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At the same time, Kreacher's been hoarding a lot of junk-that-might-not-be-junk in his little nest. Maybe he'll have a use yet.
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I was thinking something as I read the books and I thought of something that may really suck. What if Harry is one of the four horcruxes he searches for now? Wouldnt it be just be like Voldemort to do that? Could that have been how the scar occurred like it did as a more perminent mark than we thought? If so, that means Harry has to die and after reading book 6 that really sucks.
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I initially thought that Dumbledore might have been a Horcrux, but then the conversation about the bond Voldemort shares with Nagini made that seem unlikely. Since Voldemort does share a bond with Harry, however, it's entirely possible that Harry is a Horcrux.
But it's not likely. Not only would Voldemort not have tried to kill one of his own Horcruxes (for obvious reasons), I'm not sure how he would have had time to perform the ritual to create one; he could have used James' murder to cast the spell, presuming it doesn't take that long, but why would he have targeted his enemy's baby, especially a baby he intended to kill? So no, Harry's almost certainly not a Horcrux.
-------
BTW, how can Harry not love Ginny? She's one of two girls at all of Hogwarts who aren't complete twits.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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There has been so much speculation in this thread about why Snape killed Dumbledore, but I thought it was fairly obvious (at least, after a while - I didn't come to this conclusion until after I was finished reading). Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore, and when he couldn't do it, the Unbreakable Vow forced Snape to do it. I don't think Snape was completely evil, and he clearly saw that Dumbledore was in a weakened state. Rather than refuse the Vow and die, he protected Dumbledore's reputation. I don't think he would have liked a weak and powerless Dumbledore to fall into the merciless hands of the Death Eaters, which obviously would have happened had he refused the Vow and let Dumbledore live. He probably knew that Dumbledore would have died either way, so Snape thought it was better to do it himself than to risk Dumbledore being tortured or hurt by a Death Eater. Does that make sense to anyone else?
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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It's important that Dumbledore insisted that Harry go get Snape, and not Slughorn or MacGonagal. I like to think it Had to be Snape that killed Dumbledore so he could come back, but I think it's being too hopeful.
Am I the only person who has an alternate theory as to why Snape killed Dumbledore? It's kind of nasty, but what about this?
Snape is a half-blood. Dumbledore almost certainly knew that.
Now, I can't imagine that there are too many half-blood Death Eaters, seeing as how they despise half-bloods and Muggle borns.
Snape is accomplsihed at occlumency. So it's possible that Voldemort DIDN'T KNOW that Snape was a half-blood.
Could it be that...
... Dumbledore was BLACKMAILING Snape with knowledge of his half-blood heritage? Threatening to somehow make it public that Snape wasn't a pureblood?
Is THAT why Snape was working for him? So that his fellow Death Eaters wouldn't turn on him once they knew the truth?
Is THAT why he loudly insisted that he wasn't a coward--because he knew that, in truth, he was one? Is that why he looked at Dumbledore with hatred and disgust when he killed him?
Something to think about...
[ July 17, 2005, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Dom Peralt ]
Posts: 8 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I dunno. Blackmailing is not Dumbledore's style.
I'm very glad that Snape is going to be a central character in the next book. He has always been one of my favorite characters. Moral ambiguities are always more interesting than moral absolutes. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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And it's not like information on Snape's past couldn't have been found by anyone in Voldemort's service.
I'm starting to think that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to spare both him (Snape) and Malfoy. Dumbles probably knew about the Unbreakable vow and thought Snape was too important for the fight ahead, and that it wasn't too late for Malfoy to redeem himself.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: I'm starting to think that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to spare both him (Snape) and Malfoy.
I don't think so. I think the loud argument he and Snape had shortly after Snape found out what Malfoy's task really was strongly suggests that Dumbledore was convincing Snape to, if push came to shove, kill him rather than die himself.
That said, I don't think Snape knew about Malfoy's original task when the sisters first visited him, either; I'm pretty sure he was bluffing at the time. But both he and Dumbledore definitely knew by halfway through the book.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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About Snape: Is it possible to cast an inaudible spell while pretending to audibly cast another?
Posts: 80 | Registered: Jun 2005
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One theory on Snape is that he trult hated Dumbledore and Harry. However, as we saw in book 1 when Snape saved Harry's life, Snape has a strong sense of honour. I think Dumbledore held Snape to him with his sense of honour. When the time came, Snape had a choice to die or to break whatever he owed Dumbledore.
But there are so many possibilities.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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One thing was bugging me when Fawkes was flying around crying over Dumbledore. Why couldn't he go into the hospital wing where all of the people who had fought for/with Dumbledore were sitting, injured, and heal them with his tears? He could've saved Bill's face. But I guess Fawkes had other things on his mind.
quote:Now, I can't imagine that there are too many half-blood Death Eaters, seeing as how they despise half-bloods and Muggle borns.
Actually, I've always been under the impression that the were quite a few Death Eaters who are half or a quarter Muggle. There just aren't that many pure bloods out there. In fact, I doubt there are any who truly are pure bloods. They all just (as Sirius's mother did) remove any blood traitors from their family trees, pretend they don't exist.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by DavidGill: About Snape: Is it possible to cast an inaudible spell while pretending to audibly cast another?
That would create interesting possibilities about what really happen (Dumbledore might not really be dead), but each spell sends a different color beam of light at the recipient. Not only would he have to cast a spell that would essentially stun Dumbledore, but he would have to know one that would look the same as Avada Kedavra.
btw, I loved how Hermione was almost right about the HBP. There was a loophole such that the Prince wouldn't necessarily have to be male. I'd also been wondering if JK Rowling hadn't been pulling a Dobby. The book was fifty years old. Tom Riddle went to Hogwarts fifty years ago. For a few chapters I thought it really was going to end up being Voldemort or someone really close to him (though he didn't really have any friends), even though JK Rowling had said it wasn't Voldemort. But the book originally belonging to Snape's mother, whose name was Prince, and Snape being the half blood Prince, was something I definitely didn't see coming. I love how she always manages to surprise me. I can never guess everything. I defintely didn't guess the new DADA teacher. Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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No, I don't think so either. I wish his picture in the Headmistress's office would've woken up, though.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Dumbledore is closely linked with phoenixes. At his funeral, Harry thought he saw a phoenix rise from his body. (Unless I misremember. I sorta inhaled the book like the lot of us did.)
I'm wondering if she'll use that to bring Dumbledore back. I kinda hope she doesn't as that would cheapen his death.
Or, worse, bring him back in some sort of Obi-wan glowy state. "Use the Love, Harry!"
Was anyone else all smiles when Harry kissed Ginny? I've been waiting for that since book 2. I hope she stows away and goes with Hermione, Ron and Harry.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I'm quite sure that the picture will be waking up in book 7. It's one of the few things I feel pretty certain about. I'm betting we'll have a scene with Harry in the headmistresses office speaking with the picture and clearing up a few thinks about the night Dumbledore died.
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
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(Edit: In response to the Pixiest) I loved when he was trying to decide between Ron and Ginny. There was just some interesting phrasing there. I was, however, very happy when he finally kissed her. I'd pretty much given up on them after she started going out with other boys. (Though I didn't really like her for him until she did this because that was when we finally saw her personality.)
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote: I though there were a couple of odd moments (everyone randomly professing love) and every once in a while it felt like an episode of Hogwarts: 90210.
I remember being sixteen.
(I thought it was amusing that Rowling apparently realized that Harry would not in fact have come of age according to British law by the time he graduated and rather conveniently decided that wizards come of age at seventeen. *grin* That bit of exposition stood out in the same way as the "It's pronounced Her-MY-oh-KNEE" bit in Goblet of Fire did.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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The whole scene with Snape and Dumbledore felt like a big act, a play that only Snape and Dumbledore were in.
Dumbledore pleading for his life?
Never happen.
Snape with an overblown look of hatred on his face?
WAYY too convenient.
There is something going on in that scene but I am not sure what it is yet...
Maybe Dumbledore is not dead, we dont see his body until Hagrid and Harry come rushing over after some time. A switch of bodies? Polyjuice potion? Maybe the potion that protected the Horcrux makes you invulnerable to the AK curse?
I just cant see Rowling showing the role model Dumbledore being so thoroughly hoodwinked and weak.
DD ain't goin' out like dat.
Posts: 201 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I have a feeling that Dumbledore's painting in the Headmaster's office wouldn't have appeared had he not actually died.
I do think Snape has proven himself to be a spectacular actor in past books.
I hope the next book will give us some insight into exactly how much of the original person's character gets captured in a wizard painting. I've always been pretty curious.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Does Slughorn remind anyone of Ellsworth Toohey? I would love it if Slughorn, like Umbridge, brings a more subtle shade of evil to the next HP book.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Well, I finished it - didn't set any speed records and I didn't want to.
I definitely side with what seems to be the prevailing view of Dumbledore's death: Snape did what he did at Dumbledore's request.
I think he probably honestly died - no tricky or hidden spells.
Dumbledore's made comments more than once about "many things being worse than death." In fact, in one of the books (might have been GoF) that Voldemort's inability to understand this was a major weakness.
Is it just me, or did the writing come across as more uneven than the previous books?
::Going back for the second reading::
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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(I thought it was amusing that Rowling apparently realized that Harry would not in fact have come of age according to British law by the time he graduated and rather conveniently decided that wizards come of age at seventeen. *grin* That bit of exposition stood out in the same way as the "It's pronounced Her-MY-oh-KNEE" bit in Goblet of Fire did.)
I dunno. "Of age" seems to be all over the map where British law is concerned. • 10 (8 in Scotland): criminal responsibility; • 13: part-time employment; • 16: leave education, enter full-time employment, have sex, smoke, play the National Lottery, join a trade union, apply for a passport, pay tax and National Insurance, and (with parental consent) join the armed forces, get married, or leave home; • 17: drive a car or light motorbike; • 18: buy alcohol without a meal, gamble in a betting shop or casino, be tried in an adult court, serve on a jury, and do without parental consent those things exercisable at 16 only with; • 21: drive larger and more powerful motor vehicles.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Well, I was stunned and aghast when Snape killed Dumbledore....I never really was fond of him, but I didn't really think he was EVIL.
Now, of course, I am convinced that there is something more to it. I, too, believe that Dumbledore was telling Snape to kill him...whether to spare Draco (who, like Harry, I found myself pitying, and not quite hating as much as usual...nor his Mother for that matter), or to keep the Death Eaters from knowing that Snape is really an Order of the Phoenix member....I don't know. I do think Dumbledore is really dead. Sirius, I dont know, but thats another story....Dumbledore was actually HIT by Avada Kedavra....but, the fact that his painting now hangs in the Headmaster's office, that does open interesting possibilities to communicate with him...
I am looking forward to a second read of this book (finished Saturday night/Sunday morning about 2:45 am....took about 16 hours, but I was at work for 5.5 of those, and also making phone calls....HP was my reward,, make a few calls, read a bit. But, alas, my mother has to read it first....hope she's fast!
Posts: 9 | Registered: Jun 2005
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It's also been mentioned in prior books that the age would be seventeen. At least, it must've been in the fifth book because Fred and George could apparate and use their magic over the summer. I don't think Percy apparated until the fourth book, when he'd already left Hogwarts for the Ministry. But then, I don't know when his birthday is so is it possible he wasn't 17 until he started his seventh year? (I'm not sure where the cutoff is, but I think that would have held him back a year. In the fourth one Angelina (who's in the same year as Fred and George) turns seventeen in october of her sixth year.) Though now that I think about it, coming of age is mentioned in book four. Dumbledore says something about only witches and wizards who have come of age, that is to say, seventeen, may participate in the Tri-Wizard Tournament.
To recap, if you thought that she "conveniently decided that wizards come of age at seventeen" in this book, she has mentioned it elsewhere.
On a completely different note, does anyone think that Dumbledore finally gave Snape the DADA job because it's cursed? He knew people didn't stay in it for more than a year; was he planning on having Snape go back to teaching potions, or leave the school?
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:I do think Dumbledore is really dead. Sirius, I dont know, but thats another story
Wasn't the mirror supposed to come back into the story? JKR hinted that it was still important. I was really looking forward to seeing more of it this book, but I guess I'll have to wait for the next one.
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All right, here's what I think about the next book.
Dumbledore trusting Snape beyond all suspicion has been a central theme running through every book. Dumbledore tells Harry only love can conquer Voldemort.
Dumbledore pleads with Snape. I seriously can't believe Dumbledore was pleading for his life. He was saying "Severus, I know you don't want to do it, but you and I both know you have to. Kill me, Severus."
In the last book, it will be Snape that makes it possible for Harry to kill Voldemort. But to do that, Harry must put aside his hate of the man, and trust him as Dumbledore does/did. Harry must believe in Dumbledore enough to say, like Remus did "Dumbledore trusted Snape, I trust Dumbledore so that's enough for me." He must, in a sense, love Snape enough to trust him in spite of all evidence just like Dumbldore did.
That may be part of it, but I think there is an Enderesque type theme beginning to develop with all our looks into Voldemort's past. Harry must love know his enemy and love him in order to defeat him.
That, and the love that binds Harry, Ron, and Hermione together will also figure prominently. In fact, I think Voldemort will be killed by not just Harry acting alone, but by couples. Harry and Ginny will fight together, Bill and Fleur, Ron and Hermione, Tonks and Lupin. It will be the love that binds these couples together that allows them to fight and defeat the Death Eaters.
Then again, any or all of these theories is probably completely wrong.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:I'd pretty much given up on them [Harry and Ginny] after she started going out with other boys.
Funny, that's when I first started thinking they should get together. I didn't really like early-Ginny that much.
The more distance I get from the book the more I LOVE it. I was too emotionally upset when it ended to realize what a good book it was. I can't believe he's gone...
And incidently, thank you Hatrack for once again not letting me down. Only two of my friends have finished reading, and I haven't been able to talk to either one yet. It's awful! Posts: 1635 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Opinions: Sorry... it's a bit on the long side.
Regulus Black- my first thought was that he was RAB. However, the more I pondered, the more I felt it just couldn't be. He was born from a family of dark wizards- Sirius was the only exception. Sirius said his brother was just like the rest of them, and that he chickened out and ran away from Voldemort, which was why he was killed. So I'm not too sure about that. Although I guess it is possible...
Snape- I think he is still on Dumbledore's side, although Wormtail living with him creeped me out. It also scared me that Snape is the Half Blood Prince... it means he is a lot more powerful than I thought. The night that Hagrid heard Dumbledore and Snape fighting, I think Dumbledore was telling him that he will have to kill him if it comes up, because he did not want Draco becoming a murderer- I also think it was on Dumbledore's orders to watch over Draco. I do not, however, think that Snape should have EVER made that promise to Narcissa. He had absolutely no reason to, except to prove to Bellatrix that he is, in fact, on Voldemort's side. But who cares about Bellatrix? As long as the Dark Lord has faith in him, that's all that matters. He should not have made the promise. I also think that Voldemort may have accepted him back because, like himself, Snape had a witch mother and muggle father. It keeps hinting that Voldemort also chose Harry instead of Neville because of his parent's background. The book also kept talking about Voldemort's obsession with parentage. Fits, neh? I think when Dumbledore was pleading with him, it was not to save him, nor was it to kill him. Dumbledore very well knew that Snape would have to kill him anyways if Draco didn't. Dumbledore also would never beg for his life. I think that maybe he was begging Snape to protect Harry... If you notice, Snape stopped the other Death Eaters from hurting Harry. And when Harry was attacking him, Snape never fought back. I think he also slipped Harry a warning in there- 'close your mind'. He kept telling him he would never let Harry hit him with a spell unless he learned to close his mind. I think he was trying to tell him that he better learn occlumency before facing Voldemort. However, the main thing that I found against Snape (besides Wormtail living with him, and besides making that stupid promise) was that if he kills Dumbledore- who will he report to? It doesn't look like Dumbledore told anybody else that Snape may have to kill him. So then what is the point of Snape staying with Voldemort if he can not pass over any information to the Order? This leads me to believe that Snape is either a double agent, and is on whatever side he wishes to be on depending on his mood, or he really is evil. Though I do still think he is on the good side.
Dumbledore- He's dead. Not coming back. He had to die. Snape made the promise. He had to keep it. A painting on the wall is not the person's soul, so I don't think he's going to be as much use to us as the real Dumbledore. I also HIGHLY doubt the rumor that Fawkes contains Dumbledore's soul. Dumbledore is not the type to do such a thing. Just like Sirius was not the type to become a ghost.
I am also wondering about the whole Harry/Ginny thing. The first time Harry got the feeling that he was in love with Ginny was when she passed him by- he got a whiff of something exactly like the love potion that was sitting in front of Harry. So either, (a)- she was using some kind of love potion, or had a love potion used on her, or, (b)- the love potion smells different to everyone. He then realized Ginny smelled just like the love potion did, which means that she smelled the way he imagined love to smell like.
I'm predicting something happening with Neville & Luna.
I also thought the whole scene with Grawp and Hagrid was really cute...
I had thought Dumbledore would leave Harry something. Obviously not like Sirius, but it always seemed as if Dumbledore thought Harry to be like a son. I was almost sure it would have been Fawkes... Harry always had a connection with Fawkes. I was half expecting him to fly over and perch on Harry's shoulder. But he didn't... just flew away. So sad.
Oh my... and Harry forcing Dumbledore to drink that stuff... I have NEVER cried so much while reading a book.
Posts: 68 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote: And incidently, thank you Hatrack for once again not letting me down.
I second that! I had play practice yesterday from 9-3, and only one other person had gotten the book the night before, and she was only 450 pages in! Everyone else got it that morning.
I, too, immediately thought of Regulus when I read R.A.B. I couldn't remember anything about him besides that he was dead Death Eater, though.
Posts: 60 | Registered: Oct 2001
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It was so sweet when Grawp was cuddling Hagrid... I think I wept towards the funeral scene. I was so sad. Dumbledore is just awesome.
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You're right, Dumbledore wasn't blackmailing Snape. You're all right--it's a trick. Dumbledore was going to die anyway, so Snape killed him as a cover.
But of course, the ultimate question is: Why does Dumbledore trust Snape? Right? I figured it out.
Contrary to one of the comments above that there are lots of half-blood Death Eaters, this isn't the case. One of the books (Book 4, I think) established that one of Voldemort's ultimate goals was to kill all mudbloods and half-breeds, and half-breeds were any wizard with at least one Muggle grandparent. So Snape can't be in, right?
Well, like others have mentioned, Voldemort isn't necessarily one to give up power easily. Clearly, Snape is a powerful wizard and Voldemort wanted him at his side.
So my guess is this: Voldemort devised a test of loyalty for Snape. A very, very simple test--one that Voldemort himself had passed.
Kill your Muggle father.
Remember what Dumbledore offered Draco? He offered him a chance to FAKE HIS OWN DEATH, and his mother's. too.
I think that the reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape, and why Snape came over to the Order of the Phoenix, is that Voldemort had ordered Snape to KILL HIS OWN FATHER. And Snape couldn't do it, so he and Dumbledore faked his father's death to keep him alive. THAT'S why Snape is on the good side!
That make sense to anyone else?
Posts: 8 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:The first time Harry got the feeling that he was in love with Ginny was when she passed him by- he got a whiff of something exactly like the love potion that was sitting in front of Harry. So either, (a)- she was using some kind of love potion, or had a love potion used on her, or, (b)- the love potion smells different to everyone. He then realized Ginny smelled just like the love potion did, which means that she smelled the way he imagined love to smell like.
Choice B is right - Hermione says it when Slughorn's quizzing them about the potions. But Rowling didn't specify that they were talking about the cauldron near Ron and Harry, so it was easy to miss - I didn't catch it till the 2nd reading.
Posts: 952 | Registered: Jun 2005
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But Harry never ate anything contaminated by a love potion that we saw. I mean, Ron was *obviously* struck by one of that other girl's. Instead of Ginny smelling like the potion, think the other way around--the potion was made to smell, in Harry's mind, like Ginny.
quote: However, the main thing that I found against Snape (besides Wormtail living with him, and besides making that stupid promise) was that if he kills Dumbledore- who will he report to? It doesn't look like Dumbledore told anybody else that Snape may have to kill him. So then what is the point of Snape staying with Voldemort if he can not pass over any information to the Order? This leads me to believe that Snape is either a double agent, and is on whatever side he wishes to be on depending on his mood, or he really is evil. Though I do still think he is on the good side.
I think he's pulling a Suriawong--at the last/best possible moment, when his loyalty to the enemy is never questioned even by the good guys, Snape is going to leave Voldemort's side and join Harry's.
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See the plot thread? *grin*
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I didn't really like early-Ginny that much.![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
