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Author Topic: The Official Spoilerific Harry Potter VI Discussion Thread
The Rabbit
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One more thought along this line.

Slughorn kept saying that Harry's potions skills were just like his Mother's. His mother was in the same class as Snape and it now appears that the book was Snapes. What if the notes in the book are Lilly's work in Snape's book (or perhaps visa versa). Slughorn makes the comment about Lilly several times, I think its a clue we shouldn't neglect.

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Dagonee
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I think Hagrid has said he took Harry out of the ruins of the house, and that Sirius Black showed up at the house as well.

I assume the death of the secret giver releases the secret, so competent wizards could then use spells to locate Harry. Dumbledore sent Hagrid, and Black was at least competent. It could have been Snape who told Dumbledore where the house was.

I don't think that hurts your speculation, especially the part in the last paragraph.

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Glenn Arnold
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I think it's clear that Dumbledore wants to protect Draco. I think it explains why Snape had no hesitation accepting the unbreakable vow. Dumbledore had already told him that anything he did to protect Draco was OK. He may have already told Snape to kil him if it became necessary.

For the first time we're seeing that Draco is in over his head. In the past he was always proud of his family's history of support for Voldemort, because of their bigotry. But we've also heard about how many of Voldemort's followers were only in it because they feared him, not because they respected him. And we also know that Draco is a coward.

Not only is Draco getting in over his head, but he's also growing up, and issues that were clear as a child are turning out to be more complex. Dumbledore's been a headmaster for a long time, he's watched as children go through this kind of thing before. "I'll dare you to eat a worm" is a lot different than "I'll dare you to steal that car, try this drug, etc." Kids that thought they could be tough when they were younger reach a point where reality rears its ugly head, and suddenly their bravery and bravado doesn't serve its purpose anymore.

It comes back down to "choices" again, as Dumbledore told Harry in Chamber of Secrets. Dumbledore is trying to make sure that Draco has the opportunity to make the right choices, but he has to leave them up to Draco. If he'd had more time before the death eaters arrived at the top of the tower, he might have convinced Draco, but the best he could do was protect Draco by allowing Snape to do Draco's job, thereby protecting both Snape and Draco from Voldemort's wrath.

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Glenn Arnold
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Dumbledore was the secret keeper for Grimmaud place, so only a note from Dumbledore could tell Harry the location, even when he was standing right in front of the house. The entire order of the Phoenix knows the location of Grimmaud Place, but they are unable to tell the location to anyone new. Only the secret keeper can do that.

So although Pettigrew was the secret keeper for the Potters, the rest of the order already knew the location, they just couldn't tell anyone.

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The Rabbit
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But no one, excect James, Lilly, Sirius and Peter knew that Peter was the secret keeper until the events in Prisoner of Azkaban. If the members of the Order knew where James and Lilly were hiding, it would have to have been because Petigrew, the secret keeper, told them.

They didn't know he was the secret keeper, so it is also logical to assume that they didn't know the secret.

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The Rabbit
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On a completely different line, Harry is going back to the Dursley's one last time. I that on this visit we are going to find out Aunt Petunia's secret. It's pretty clear that she has more knowledge of the Wizarding world than she lets on and that she and Dumbledore shared a secret understanding which has not been fully explained. I think that we will finally discover why Dumbledore chose to place Harry with the Dursley's. The protective spell alone is not an answer because it doesn't explain why Dumbledore put the protective spell on the Dursley's rather than somewhere else.

[ August 26, 2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Glenn Arnold
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That would be a plot hole then, because no one who didn't already know the secret should have been able to find Harry.

The only way I see around it is that certain people knew the secret before the secret spell was cast, but they weren't able to tell anyone once Pettigrew was made secret keeper.

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Dagonee
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Or the death of the person's whose secret is being kept unbinds the secret.
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Sartorius
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
The protective spell doesn't answer alone is not an answer because it doesn't explain why Dumbledore put the protective spell on the Dursley's rather than somewhere else.

Hasn't this been answered in book 5? I thought Dumbledore explained that the magic was only strong enough because Petunia Dursley and Harry were related by blood.
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Glenn Arnold
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"The protective spell doesn't answer alone is not an answer because it doesn't explain why Dumbledore put the protective spell on the Dursley's rather than somewhere else."

I don't think Dumbledore put the protective spell on the Dursleys. Lily put the protective spell on Harry, and Petunia is of the same blood as Lily, which is why Petunia's home offers Harry protection, because she is of the same blood as Harry. Dumbledore didn't have any choice in the matter. I'm pretty sure he has explained that.

What throws me though, is that I thought the protection was the same protection that kept Quirrell (and Voldemort) from being able to touch Harry's skin, which came from Harry's blood. This protection was defeated when Voldemort used Harry's blood to reincarnate himself. So why does going to the Dursley's house protect Harry at all anymore?

I agree that Petunia will have an important revelation, however.

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Glenn Arnold
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"Or the death of the person's whose secret is being kept unbinds the secret."

Except that neither Pettigrew nor Sirius died, so Dumbledore still wouldn't have been able to find the hiding place.

If he had, then he would have known that Sirius wasn't the secret keeper, because he knew Sirius was still alive.

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Glenn Arnold
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Sorry, I misread your statement. Lily and James both died, so their secret was no longer kept. I get it.

But was Harry part of the secret?

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Regulus would have needed an accomplice to feed him the potion or vice versa.
This is not necessarily true. RAB, who ever he or she might be, might have found another way of getting to the locket without drinking the potion. After all, the potion was still there when Harry and Dumbledore came. Who ever took either was able to obtain it without disturbing the potion, or replaced the potion once they had switched the lockets. Either way, they had to have had more knowledge of the potion Dumbledore.

[ August 26, 2005, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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The Rabbit
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I would also like to point out that we have a very detailed description of what happened the night Harry's parents were killed. Of the 4 we know to have been present, 2 were killed (James and Lilly), one was virtually killed (Voldemort), and one was a baby.

Unless Dumbledore was able to extract the memory from Harry, someone else must have been there. I think there are important things that happened that night which JKR has yet to reveal.

Which leads to an interesting question, among the vials in Dumbledores office is there one that contains a memory of James' and Lilly's murder? Will that memory play a role in book seven.

Is that memory Harry's memory or someone elses? JKR has said that the memories viewed in the pensieve are factual records of what happened so perhaps it doesn't matter who's memory it is. Except of course that a person can only remember the portions they actually witnessed.

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Tinros
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I wonder if there's a way for Harry to extract the memory of his parents' death and create his own pensieve?
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Glenn Arnold
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It feels to me that in HBP, Dumbledore promised to give Harry private "lessons," but didn't teach him any magic. At the very least Harry ought to be able to pull a fairly clear memory out of his temple with his wand. Maybe not an indistinct memory like his parents' murder, though (although he should be able to extract a memory of what he heard during a dementor attack).

It could be a useful defense mechanism too, like when Snape used the pensieve to safely store memories while he was teaching Harry (although that backfired). Harry could put memories that he didn't want Voldemort to gain access to in the penseive, instead of carrying them around with him. Then again, that feature of the penseive isn't exactly clear. Are memories copies? It certainly seems so with Slughorn, but Dumbledore's explanation makes it seem like memories are removed from your head while they're in the penseive.

I've always wondered why the pensieve wasn't used in the court of law. Of course, in HBP we find it's possible to forge memories, but then, it's also possible to detect the forgery. In any case, a pensieve memory give the jury more accuracy than verbal testimony would.

I guess that would solve too many problems, what with the ministry not believing Harry, and all.

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quiden
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
Who brought Harry to Dumbledore after Voldemort killed his parents?

They were in hiding. The hiding place was a secret that only Pettigrew (and the Death Eaters he told) knew. Harry was the only one left alive and he was a baby. Yet somehow Dumbledore gets Harry and the whole wizarding world learns that Voldemort has been vanquished.

So with that build up, here is my guess.

Snape was present when Harry's parents were murdered and he took Harry to Dumbledore. That is why Dumbledore trusts Snape.

I'm going to speculate even further. I think Snape's love for Lilly wasn't just admiration from afar. I think that at one point Severus and Lilly were an item and their break up is intimately connected with Snape becoming a Death Eater (either the cause or the effect or some of both).

well, I think Hagrid brought harry to dumbledore as we see in the first book.

Also, I don't believe that Pettigrew was the only one who knew where the potters were. I think that we learn in the order of the phoenix, that other people can know the secret, but only one person can tell it. Dumbledore was secret keeper for the order of the phoenix, but all of the members knew where it was.

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ketchupqueen
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Right. Sirius Black lent his giant motorcycle to Hagrid to take Harry to Dumbledore.
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quiden
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
Or the death of the person's whose secret is being kept unbinds the secret.

The only problem with this -- in the case of the secret keeper for the Potters -- is that the secret keeper didn't die. He just went into hiding.
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ketchupqueen
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Well, maybe the telling of the secret-- the betrayal of the secret keeper-- unbinds the secret. Or maybe Dumbledore knew already.
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Dagonee
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quote:
The only problem with this -- in the case of the secret keeper for the Potters -- is that the secret keeper didn't die. He just went into hiding.
I wasn't speaking of the secret keeper, but the person whose secret is being kept. And James and Lilly - the people whose secret was being kept - did die.

quote:
But was Harry part of the secret?
Rowling can make this one go either way - there's really no way for us to give one answer precedence over the other. Of course, that's true for pretty much all of this. [Big Grin]
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Glenn Arnold
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Personally I think it's pointless speculation, because I think the Order knew where James and Lily's house was, just as the Order knows where 12 Grimmaud Place is. We would have seen some evidence of controversy if it had been any different.

But your theory could be important since Dumbledore was the secret keeper for 12 Grimmaud place. Could Voldemort have found the place after he died?

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The Rabbit
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I don't think there is any evidence that spells of any kind stop working when the witch or wizard who cast them dies. In fact, the evidence would suggest that the protective spells Dumbledore cast on the Dursley's home and Hogwarts remain in effect even though he has died. The map still works even thought two of its makers (James and Sirius) are dead.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Personally I think it's pointless speculation, because I think the Order knew where James and Lily's house was, just as the Order knows where 12 Grimmaud Place is.
But James and Lilly weren't simply in their home, their were hiding. Members of the Order know where 12 Grimmaud Place is because Dumbledore, the secret keeper, has told them. If Pettigrew, the secret keeper, had told them where James and Lilly were hiding, they would have known that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper and they did not.
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Glenn Arnold
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"I don't think there is any evidence that spells of any kind stop working when the witch or wizard who cast them dies."

Yes there is.

"he walked slowly forward until he reached the place where Dumbledore lay and crouched down beside him. He had known there was no hope from the moment the full Body-Bind Curse Dumbledore had placed on him lifted, known that it could have happened only because its caster was dead..."

As for the map, that is an enchanted object, not a spell.

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rivka
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Excellent point, Glenn.
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quiden
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Ok, here's another topic that I thought of as I was reading the book the 2nd time with my daughter.

What if the reason that Dumbledore knows that he can trust Snape is if he was the one who taught him Occlumency?

Remember when Dumbledore was looking intently in the cave to find out what enchantments were there and how he said that he had taught Tom Riddle, so he knew his style. What if he, Dumbledore, had taught Snape and so Snape would never be an effective Occlumens against Dumbledore. I think it makes sense. Dumbledore certainly had a lot of confidence in Snapes abilities as an occlumens or else he wouldn't have wanted him to teach Harry in Order of the Phoenix.

I also think that Dumbledore knows very much about Snapes history and motives and struggles which is why he loaned Snape the Pensieve so Harry wouldn't see those unhappy memories of his.

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quiden
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Another thought that I have relates to Dumbledore's death.

People have debated about why he flew up in the air like that when the killing curse hit him -- thinking that maybe Snape did something other than the actual avada kedavra curse so maybe Dumbledore isn't dead.

My personal opinion is that Dumbledore is dead. This discussion about the effects of Snape's curse remind me of what Harry had realized, that "bangs and smoke were more often the marks of ineptitude than expertise."

Relating these two thoughts makes me think that it was probably Snape's first time ever using the killing curse -- a fact that might surprise Harry later -- and that his disgust that was on his face was simply his dreading what he was about to do.

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jebus202
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quote:
But James and Lilly weren't simply in their home, their were hiding. Members of the Order know where 12 Grimmaud Place is because Dumbledore, the secret keeper, has told them. If Pettigrew, the secret keeper, had told them where James and Lilly were hiding, they would have known that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper and they did not.
But Dumbledore wasn't present when HArry found out about Grimmauld place. The other members of the Order could have easily been given a piece of paper like Harry was.

But I don't think that's what happened. Since Dumbledore feared a traitor in the Order I doubt he told many people where James and Lilly were. Rather I think it's something more like what Dagonee suggested. Or perhaps the destruction of Godric's Hollow undid the spell.

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Beren One Hand
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I have a question. Did Dumbledore know that Petigrew was the Potters's secret keeper? If so, then we have proof that he has made serious mistakes in the past with regards to his character evaluations.
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The Rabbit
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I'll have to look at Prisoner of Askaban again to be certain but as I remember it, everyone but James, Lilly, Sirius and Peter believed that Sirius was the secret keeper. The implication is that Dumbledore believed that as well. That is the key to why everyone believed that Sirius was a Death Eater and to why he was convicted and sent to Askaban.
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Beren One Hand
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Ah, that's right Rabbit. Thanks. [Smile]
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Dagonee
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Anyone else wonder what the Sorting Hat was thinking when it put Wormtail in Gryfindor? That's assuming the hints we have as to why he defected are accurate - lack of courage.
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The Rabbit
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If prophecies can't accurately predict the future, why do you think that the Sorting Hat can?

I think that all the Sorting Hat does is determine to which house you really want to belong. I can't think of any cases where people were highly upset by where the Sorting Hat placed them.

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Dagonee
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I was thinking of bravery more as a trait than a prediction, I guess.
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ketchupqueen
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That's true. Also, people can think they're courageous, but in fact not be. If he had an inflated self-image, the Sorting Hat might have misplaced him.
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Glenn Arnold
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For that matter why did the sorting hat put Neville in Gryffindor?

And why didn't it put Hermione in Ravenclaw?

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Dagonee
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Neville stood up to the trio in book 1, and went to the Ministry in book 5. He's incompetent and timid until it counts, then he's brave.

According to Hermione in (I think) book 6, the hat considered placing her in Ravenclaw. She's certainly shown she's brave, so maybe that's where the choice comes in.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
I was thinking of bravery more as a trait than a prediction, I guess.

Yes, but isn't one of the points of the book that people's traits are a result of their choices and not predetermined by fate.
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Dagonee
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I don't think so. I think it's more that the people's traits aren't as important as their choices in determining who a person is.

If the Hat can't predict, then past and current choices + traits are what it depends on.

Side note that may have been discussed: Is Olliviander's disappearance related to Voldemort wanting a new wand or wanting to know why the linkage happened? (Not a difficult prediction, but it struck me on rereading).

I assume that this will be the reason why LV and Harry can actually square off at the end without the same effect happening again.

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JemmyGrove
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Bump. Just 'cause I haven't read it all yet.
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
Side note that may have been discussed: Is Olliviander's disappearance related to Voldemort wanting a new wand or wanting to know why the linkage happened? (Not a difficult prediction, but it struck me on rereading).
Yeah, Olivander's disappearance struck me as important. And going back to the point where Harry bought his wand, Harry didn't like Ollivander, apparently because of the "terrible, but great things" line about Voldemort. That's enough of a clue to make me wonder where Ollivander stands with regard to helping Voldemort: Willing, or Unwilling?
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Samarkand
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Well, Ollivander also says something like "of course, if I'd know what that wand was going to do . . ." implying he wouldn't have sold it. So who knows. Also, remember whose tail feathers are in those two wands; I don't think we've seen the last of Fawkes.

Regarding why Dumbledore trusted Snape: because Snape overheard part of the prohecy, reported back to Voldemort, Voldemort concluded that he needed to go after either Neville or Harry, picked Harry - and Snape, realizing that he had just caused Lily's murder, FREAKED and turned coat. Yep. And made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbly while he was at it, I shouldn't wonder.

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Eisenoxyde
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I believe that Ollivander didn't go willingly. Not only Ollivander is supposed to be the best wand maker, he also made LV's original wand. With LV's penchant for history, it would be logical for him to force Ollivander to make him a new wand.

Also, about Glenn's quote about Ollivander saying "terrible, but great things", I always interepeted the great part to be a scalar and terrible part to be a directional vector (to use math terms).

Jesse

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