Sorry if this has already been posted, but I'm interested to hear any Hatrackers reactions/comments to this article.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
A friend of mine here in Dallas is friends with Jenna Taylor, the girl who was interviewed. I read this article last week.
My view is that her experience is definitely her experience, but it is not typical. The view I see presented is that smart, beautiful, independent LDS girls will not be able to date within the church, and that isn't true - not in my experience, and not in the experience of many of the girls I know.
She doesn't date much in the church, and has chosen to date outside the church instead. I used to, but I don't anymore. It feels a little dishonest - dating is a beginning of something, even if it usually never goes past the beginning. It feels a dishonest to me to start something and involve someone's feelings when there isn't the slightest chance of a middle to follow the beginning.
Having said that, she definitely has a point. There are more than a few guys who are looking for the demure, quiet, shadow kind of girl. However, it isn't all of them, and I suspect that kind of guy exists outside of the church as well as inside.
quote: It feels a dishonest to me to start something and involve someone's feelings when there isn't the slightest chance of a middle to follow the beginning.
You know, people do convert. In either direction. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Kat it seems like you are missing the point see my italics.
quote: The view I see presented is that smart, beautiful, independent LDS girls over 30 will not be able to date within the church, and that isn't true - not in my experience, and not in the experience of many of the girls I know.
You yourself said that 27 is old in the LDS church... not to mention that Prophet's quotation about any unmarried male that is 27 is "a menace to society" from the article:
quote: Taylor sat through a Relief Society lesson titled “Preparing for an Eternal Marriage and Family.” Several married women decided to share stories of friends who didn’t marry until very late. One by one, these women tearfully tried to boost the spirits of the single women in attendance by talking about girlfriends who persevered until they were finally blessed with marriage at the advanced age of 28. And 31. Taylor couldn’t believe what she was hearing. She squirmed and waited for it to end, but the stories kept coming. Finally, she couldn’t keep quiet any longer. “Thirty-one is not late,” she yelled, exasperated. “Eighty-two is late.”
That sounds an awful lot like you even if you are a bit younger... though I'm not impressed by the woman's language in the interview.
posted
Tom: Yeah, I suppose he could convert to LDS. I don't want him doing it for me, though. I mean, I absolutely adore converts, and while Flirt to Convert does work out sometimes (my mother's case, for instance), I don't like the idea at all. I don't want that pressure. I have also seen SO MUCH dishonesty abounding in situations like that that that the entire idea is distasteful to me.
And while I know you're teasing/not teasing, I do love my religion. I'm not saying it isn't possible for me to fall so hard for someone that I'd reject my religion (I guess anything's possible), but I wouldn't thank the guy who catalyzed that. I really believe it. I think if I walked away from it now I'd lose all respect for myself.
quote:That sounds an awful lot like you even if you are a bit younger... though I'm not impressed by the woman's language in the interview.
Actually yeah - it does sound like me - and many (most) of my friends here in Dallas. I'm not that much younger than this girl. That's why I don't agree with her - we do date. Not every weekend, but a reasonable amount. I dated more at 25 than I ever did at 20.
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: You yourself said that 27 is old in the LDS church... not to mention that Prophet's quotation about any unmarried male that is 27 is "a menace to society"
I'm pretty sure this is one of those apocryphal things that can never be verified. I've heard at least three or four different numbers given for the age at which one becomes a menace to society.
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quote: I think if I walked away from it now I'd lose all respect for myself.
That's clearly a self-fulling prophecy... if you think that you will lose respect.
However, as I said, I'm surprised you object so strenuously to the article itself, when it seemed particularly to be dealing with older LDS singles, and issues that it seems like I've heard about from you.
posted
hmmm I didn't think it was apocryphal, since I got it from Katie, and she's generally pretty non-apocryphal. Is it possible to look it up somewhere?
(oh and you answered the last half of my previous post in your edit to the post above)
posted
*laugh* I probably hate it because of the language. Seriously - 1000 single LDS women in the area, and they picked the one to interview that swears like a sailor.
I did, however, LOVE her listing of accomplishments. "I am 33 and managed to remain a virgin."
quote: 1063: On 06/06/99, Mike asked: Did Brigham Young ever say that an unmarried 27-year-old male Church member is a "menace to society"? I have heard this from various members, but I have never been able to find a reference for it.
In 1963, BYU President Ernest L. Wilkinson said:
"As to the single men, I need merely to repeat the admonition attributed to Brigham Young, "Every man not married and over twenty-five is a menace to the community." I asked Dr. Lyman Tyler yesterday if he would document this for me, but he said he had been trying to document it for years; he had given up, so you will have to accept it either on faith, or as apocryphal." (Commencement Exercises May 31, 1963 BYU Speeches of the Year, p.1)
Like many other Latter-day Saints, I know that I have read the quote attributed to President Young, and like many others, I am presently unable to document it. I remember it made a strong impression on my mind because I was 27 and single at that point in my life.
posted
It is an excruciating read. The whole thing made me very, very uncomfortable.
I read the article a few days ago (it's been under discussion at another Related Forum), and my opinion of the woman in question - based on what she says, does, is unapologetic about, and specific sacred things she publicly bashes - is not very high at all.
I tried to count one single positive thing she had to say about the Church, and couldn't find one. There were many, many, many counts of her saying why she thought the leadership was wrong, and giving excuses as to why the policies shouldn't have to apply to her.
I wish the article had had a counter-viewpoint. As one who has attended a family ward as well as a Singles ward (and who has older single friends who have been in both), I can say pretty confidantly that her attitudes are not, from my experience, the norm.
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posted
Kat, I don’t know. The article was long and the bitterness was rather laboriously belabored. I felt kind of bad for having gotten married and for trying to take care of my wife. I’m not unsympathetic to the plight of LDS singles, and I’m not oblivious to the huge troubles they go through in LDS society. But that was my negativity quota for the day. I can’t stand it when articles like that start wallowing in victimhood.
quote: Even insignificant events at the family ward can remind Taylor that something is missing from her life. During one sacrament meeting when the air conditioning was running full blast, Taylor watched a shivering woman ask her husband for his jacket. He put it around her, and she snuggled up next to him and fell asleep, a perfect image of marital bliss.
“I saw them sitting there with their little temple marriage, and who the **** cares if she fell asleep in church, because she’s got a husband who’s worthy,” says Taylor. “I got really, really bitter. The fact is, when I’m sitting in church and I’m freezing from the air conditioning, I can’t ask my husband for his coat. I have to sit through this situation every Sunday. I have to remember to bring a sweater, or I have to learn how to deal with the cold.”
posted
afr and Taal, I do agree. I do not think that her experience or attitude is representative of the norm.
I have decided that one of the myths that persist about getting married is that now someone will take care of you. I've been close enough to know it just doesn't work like that. I mean, it does happen sometimes (or often), but being with somebody creates as many responsibilities as it does relieve them. If she were married, she wouldn't have to remember to bring a sweater, but she would have to remember a dozen other things on Sunday morning. And that's before the babies.
quote:"I have to remember to bring a sweater, or I have to learn how to deal with the cold."
I suspect this is usually true. It's part of being grown up.
posted
She's so jealous of all these happily married people, but she doesn't even know what marriage is. It's not about having someone there to give you their jacket when you're cold—it's about being there to give someone your jacket.
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posted
Kat, I don't think that's what he was saying. I also thought this girl (by no means all singles) sounded like she thought marriage would be the solution to all her problems. She also sounded like she'd kind of stopped looking among LDS guys. I mean, ordering coffee ice cream on a first date? She doesn't want a second date if that's what she's doing. She's deliberately being shocking, as if she's daring guys to date her anyway.
Can't she give up that coffee ice cream on the first date to let guys get a chance to get to know her before intentionally trying to turn them off?
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quote: I think if I walked away from it now I'd lose all respect for myself.
I'm probably reading more into that than is there, but I can't really parse that feeling. I'd lose respect for myself if I thought I gave up the church for any reason other than the discovery that I didn't really believe it anymore, but then again, you probably wouldn't leave it unless you reached that point, right?
Are you saying that you'd lose respect for yourself if you abandoned your beliefs for a man, or that you would lose respect for yourself if your association with a man led you to be converted to another religious philosophy? (I took TomD's post to be implying the latter situation rather than the former.)
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posted
I think I'm uncomfortable criticizing her based on how she is portrayed in this article. Clearly it didn't do a very good job presenting the life of an LDS single - I don't trust it to do a good job presenting her.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Ouch. Jon Boy, did you know what it was before you did it?
I think I had a pretty good idea. I knew there was a lot of sacrifice and compromise involved. At the least, I don't think I've ever had any false ideas about marriage being blissful and idyllic all the time.
But I've been the bitter single guy before. I know what it's like to look at happy couples and burn with jealousy and bitterness because they have what you can't have. And then I grew up. I stopped worrying as much about finding the perfect girl who would make me happy and started thinking about how I could become the perfect guy for my perfect girl.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think I'm uncomfortable criticizing her based on how she is portrayed in this article. Clearly it didn't do a very good job presenting the life of an LDS single - I don't trust it to do a good job presenting her.
You could very well be right. I look at that quote that afr posted, and I see a very petty, jealous person who has a lot of growing up to do. Maybe that's partly true and there's a lot more to her than that. I don't know.
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posted
Okay. I think...I think you were probably indulged when you still needed to grow up. I think it's only fair to give her the same room. Not everyone tackles all of life's journeys at the same time.
posted
The impression I got from Jenna Taylor is that she may be smart, she may have a testimony, but she has the emotional maturity of a 15 year-old.
I used to cuss, eat espresso flavored ice cream, bring Mountain Dew and Jolt to seminary and institute and so on. Why? To shock other people, to prove my individuality, to show I wasn't goint to conform. Somehow the girl I was dating saw past these flaws and married me anyway.
Having been married for several years with 3 primary age children, I have learned that my previous attitudes were silly and immature. Eternal marriage isn't about being an individual, but about becomming one with your spouse. Both my wife and I have sacrificed parts of ourselves, but in return have grown from the other.
Perhaps the reason Taylor has not been able to find a worthy husband it that she shows an unwillingness to compromise or sacrifice in a marriage relationship. Perhaps is she spent less time trying to test her dates through borderline inappropriate behavior, she should seek men who challange her to become a better person by giving up her worldly treasures (such as coffee ice cream.)
Just a thought.
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quote: I think I'm uncomfortable criticizing her based on how she is portrayed in this article. Clearly it didn't do a very good job presenting the life of an LDS single - I don't trust it to do a good job presenting her.
I think it did a pretty good job of illustrating the life of many LDS singles. YMMV, but I left the church at around 27 (in that I stopped attending). My experience as a single returned-missionary jived with the article, where it is applicable to a single man in the church. I just question the reason for publishing it in a non-LDS paper. I mean, what's the point?
Granted, my experience also involved dealing with my own sexuality, which also doesn't jive with the church teachings, but that doesn't entirely negate my impressions.
On a side note, I wonder what her reasons were for being 99.9 percent sure the 5 or 6 single guys in her ward were all gay.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I remember seeing one of the guys I grew up with in my ward, sitting several rows in front of me with his wife. They hadn't been married long. He was leaning forward, and she was casually running her fingers over his back as they listened to the speaker.
I remember being very envious of that. I was probably 21 at the time. Now, ten years later, if I were still single, I would have a hard time not thinking a bitter thought about that. Regardless of my religious affiliation, I would be hungry for that kind of companionship and affirmation.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
How sad for someone to expose their utter selfishness in front of everyone. To be so completely focused on what you yourself lack that you resent other people for possessing it - it says far more about her than about others, though of course the article is oblivious to what is being inadvertently confessed.
We all carry our personal heartbreaks, frustrations, and exceptions around with us. For instance, after our baby died, it was impossible for me to sit through the Primary Christmas program without crying, and it's still very hard, because I look up there and see all those beautiful children that are exactly the age my little Erin Louisa would have been. But I don't mention it to anyone and try to keep it to myself, because I would be ashamed of myself if I ever made other people feel bad for enjoying their children! It's a time of joy, and I will not impose my private grief on them. And now, eight a a half years later, I'm able to get through these events much more calmly.
The point is this: Nobody fits into the pattern EXACTLY. But that does not mean there's something wrong with the pattern. OR with you! It just means that we aspire to good things, and achieve all those we can, and we should celebrate for those who achieve what we have not been able to, as we would hope they would celebrate with us for the good things we have achieved.
And Jon Boy, when it comes to marriage, you have hit the nail on the head. There are many reasons why a person might be unmarried; but I wish I had a buck for all the guys (and even a few women) who rail on and on about how awful the members of the opposite sex are and THAT'S why they're not married - which almost always leads me to think, Good heavens, don't you realize that YOU are the one who is too awful and judgmental for anyone in their right mind to marry?
Dating is a lousy way to meet a mate anyway. Most of the best "late" marriages I've seen have come from people getting to know each other through working together in their callings. (That's one of the things I love about doing theatre in the Church ... you can meet people and WORK with them.)
However, it IS "late" to marry, when you're in your late twenties or early thirties. The pool of available mates of a similar age is drastically reduced, and it's very hard to find an available person who is not wacko.
The internet is helping ... some. I've known several LDS internet marriages that have worked out splendidly - because the people were honest with each other and had no ridiculous expectations. I think of one couple: The man was, to be candid, kind of ugly and dull - but sweet and decent and hardworking, a good provider and a word-keeper and KIND. The woman was of a stout body type and that simply wasn't going to change, but she was ebullient and smart and warm and loving and a joy to be around - adding to his life the spark that in his shyness he would never have had. As a couple they are delightful company, and they are both a gift to the church through their good service. And their babies are beautiful.
But I also know of the woman who moved across the country to marry the "good Mormon" she met on the internet, only to find he was an exploiter, not a provider, and that his Mormonness was only skin deep - in fact, he was already flirting with other women online at the time of the wedding. Needless to say, THAT one didn't last long - though the ward stepped in and provided this woman with the help she needed to get free of the parasite she had married, and she remains there now as a happy, productive member of a good, welcoming ward.
The irony of our culture-shaped "beauty search" (and it goes both ways) is that by the time we're sixty, we're all old and decrepit-looking <grin> and most of us have put on weight, so why oh why did it matter so much when we were younger what people LOOKED like?
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Well, I really think that anyone who argues that you can't be an intelligent, educated woman in the LDS church, or can't get married in the temple, doesn't know church history. I think there is a lot of folk doctrine that a good Mormon woman is barefoot and pregnant by the time she's 21, and it's utter bunk.
Here's my experience. I was working as a lawyer and attending a singles branch when I was 27. There were a lot of guys who made stupid comments like "I wouldn't ever marry a lawyer, I want a woman who puts her family first." (actual quote) I didn't get a whole lot of dates. I earned about twice as much as your average guy in the branch and had been in school for more years than many of them had been alive.
But I was a fully fellowshipped, active, devout member of the church. It didn't matter what little boys barely off their missions said about me. I taught the Gospel Essentials class to the new converts and I went to the temple. I firmly believed then and still believe now that if there wasn't any man willing to date a woman with my education and qualifications, that was his failing, not mine. The opinions of a bunch of guys unwilling to date me do not constitute church doctrine
Fast forward a bit. I met a guy who was also highly educated and we got along rather well. We had a lot on common. Another much younger girl in the congregation thought he was pretty wonderful too and mounted a desperate campaign to marry him. She wanted a knight in shining armor. I just thought he was a great guy. She wanted him to buy her a house and take care of her every need. I had a house already, and a car, and a 401k, and actually, rather a lot more in assets than he did. The competition between me and her was nonexistant. I married the guy in the temple and have been with him ever since. Now I work part time, make very good money at it, and have found a balance of home and work that I think I can sustain, more or less, through child rearing. I also have a career to go back to once the kids are out of the house.
So it actually didn't pay off to be the "good" Mormon girl who didn't have an education and who's main goal in life was to be married, although I think this girl's a good person and otherwise hope she gets everything she wants in life. Meanwhile, one of my nearest and dearest friends is over 30, unmarried, and BRILLIANT. She's also been in several Relief Society presidencies, is a temple worker, and this is totally selfish of me, but I'm glad I don't have to compete with her husband for her time right now. I stay over at her place when I'm in the city late, she stays over at mine when she wants a break from her PhD studies. We read all the same books and talk on the phone every few days. I don't wish that she was anything other than who she is, and I do wish that some guy as amazing and wonderful as she is would come into her life. But if he doesn't, that's HIS failing, not hers. The church is a better organization for people like her, and a worse one for people who don't recognize her worth.
posted
Well, yeah, that was a big motivation for me. And I followed that experience with years of klutzy gaffes and total screwups as I learned to deal with it. I wasn't very comfortable in the dating scene.
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posted
I agree with AFR- that was a painful read. The girl has some legitimate gripes about things which are an annoying part of Mormon culture. However, based on the limited vision of her given by the article, I could tell her why LDS guys don't want to date her: She is irreverent about things most LDS hold to be sacred. She is clearly a rebel without a cause. When dating everyone generally tries to put their best foot forward and with time expose the idiosyncracies each possesses. This girl, however, appears to try to put her worst face on to see if the guy will keep coming back.
If she really does want to get married she needs to change her strategy.
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quote:If she really does want to get married she needs to change her strategy.
Right. Which leads me to suspect that she doesn't really want to get married, or else doesn't want it enough to accept it on something other than her terms. Or else she's a little socially awkward.
I know a guy very, very much like her in Dallas. He's graduated from dental school and moved to Salt Lake since, but this reminds me of it. He tended to go for the girls that had already expressed a lack of interets in him, and he was often frustrated about it. I think...I think when someone does that, then they are trying to reconcile conflicting impulses. Falling for someone and trying to make something happen is obeying all those hormones and instructions to get married, but picking people who don't want you is a great way to stave off any actual consequences.
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quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: And Jon Boy, when it comes to marriage, you have hit the nail on the head. There are many reasons why a person might be unmarried; but I wish I had a buck for all the guys (and even a few women) who rail on and on about how awful the members of the opposite sex are and THAT'S why they're not married - which almost always leads me to think, Good heavens, don't you realize that YOU are the one who is too awful and judgmental for anyone in their right mind to marry?
See, I had the opposite problem—I knew lots of amazing girls, but they never seemed that interested in me. I think I was just going after the wrong girls and not thinking about whether I was the sort of guy that my dream girl would want to marry. I had to change my dating strategy and work on myself before things worked out.
quote:The internet is helping ... some. I've known several LDS internet marriages that have worked out splendidly - because the people were honest with each other and had no ridiculous expectations.
<—has a happy LDS internet marriage thanks to Hatrack Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:However, it IS "late" to marry, when you're in your late twenties or early thirties. The pool of available mates of a similar age is drastically reduced, and it's very hard to find an available person who is not wacko.
See, this article actually comes at an interesting time for me because of the marrying age issue -- not because I'm worried about getting married too *late*, but because I'm worried about getting married too *young.* My cultural experience in this regard has been extraordinarily different from the Mormon one, I think, because if I wanted to get married at 22, or even 23 or 24, I would be *extremely* worried about my family's perception of me. I'm currently dating someone who, in two years, will probably be a commissioned officer. This creates problems -- or rather pressures -- on our relationship, because if we want it to continue in any meaningful way, we'll have to be married (the military doesn't exactly give a cr@p about girlfriends or even fiancees). This also means that while I'll have been out of school a year and a half before such wedding would have to take place, I'd still be only 22 -- and waay too young by my parents standards.
There's no real *point* to this musing, I guess, except to point out that my parents beliefs -- and my expectation and continued desire, regardless of marriage -- have always taught me that the goal, first and foremost, is to have a successful life and a successful career, to explore all of your own options and hopes and dreams. Marrying early is seen as cutting that short, it seems to me...or always did. With my current situation I find myself in an interesting dilemma.
Different worlds, I guess.
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quote:For me to decide against it, I'd have to explain away my previous experiences and present testimony. Given enough motivation and intent I could probably do it, but I think I'd have to lie to myself to do it. Either that, or conclude that I was a fool before. Neither of those options is particularly self-respect-inducing.
Just wanted to add my support to what Kat is saying here. I agree 100%.
Putting myself in her position, had I married someone of a different faith and converted FOR the marriage, I think I would lose a lot of self-respect too. What kind of follower of God can I be if I choose a man over God?
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posted
JB: Speaking of LDS special pressures -- when am I going to have some little Jatraquero nieces and nephews around to indoctinate in the ways of LDS cultural snobbery? Get cracking you two (or whatever the appropriate euphamism is).
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posted
Marge: Homer, please don't make me choose between my man and my God, because you just can't win. Homer: There you go again, always taking someone else's side. Flanders, the water department, God...
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posted
Here's another interesting thought - if my husband chose ME over God, I'd not have respect for him.
I'm a big fan of dating within your faith. With apologies to those here that have happy interfaith marriages - I'm glad it works for you - in my experience that's rare.
I've seen Christians marry Jews and get divorced less than two years later. I've seen Christians marry atheists and it end very badly. Yes, it can work, but I think it's starting a marriage with a very big strike against you and marriage isn't easy to make work as it is.
My suggestions to all my single friends and the suggestions I'll give to my kids when they're older is make sure you see eye to eye on the big things - religion, whether or not to have children, the roles in the family (if he expects her to quit work when she gets pregnant and she wants a career they've got a problem) and don't expect that marriage will change someone. People who marry outside their faith with the hopes that "oh after we're married he/she will convert and life will be grand" are setting themselves up for disappointment.
Edit: One day I'll learn to spell atheist correctly. But apparently not today.
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posted
Wise words, Belle. It's hard enough to merge two personalities without starting out from different world views.
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quote:Originally posted by Zalmoxis: JB: Speaking of LDS special pressures -- when am I going to have some little Jatraquero nieces and nephews around to indoctinate in the ways of LDS cultural snobbery?
Good things come to those who wait.
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posted
Everyone's a misfit in the society to which they belong. I've never had a close friend that was a normal, typical person, though I see such people from a distance all the time.
Re: dating outside the faith, been there done that. I wasn't interested in marrying outside my faith and was clear about that up front. It ended badly, but, that isn't to say it was a worthless endeavor.
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