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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Washington City Paper feature on Mormons (Page 5)

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Author Topic: Washington City Paper feature on Mormons
Rohan
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Obviously, it matters very much what the particular person thinks about personal questions. littlemissattitude hates them, I personally don't mind them, so, in a ward context, where everyone likes to think of themselves as brothers and sisters, friends, it is easy to assume others are as comfortable with us as we feel with them. I don't think this calls for an end to personal questions, just more conscientiousness about when, where, and who. My default position is that people do not appreciate personal questions, and I adjust it when I learn differently in a specific context.
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katharina
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I don't mind people asking. I hope they don't mind when I give them the runaround.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
When we perpetuate the stigma of the singles program being a dating service for the desperate, we widen the gulf that separates us from those who need our support the most.
The sad thing is that some bishops and stake presidents (at least at BYU) help perpetuate the meat-market idea.
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mr_porteiro_head
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That seems only fair.

edit: This is in response to kat

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katharina
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Jon Boy, that reminds me. My current ward is chock-full of girls right now. We had twenty girls move in and a grand total of three guys. However, Coccinelle's ward has an abundance of guys. When I told my bishop that one day when he was lamenting the statistics, he became very interested in aligning the two wards for group activities.

He called it the Lehi/Ishmael program. >_<

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beverly
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I laughed aloud at that. :grin:
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Jon Boy
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My singles ward had a dating council. I'm not even kidding. It was fairly innocuous, though; they mostly just arranged for huge group "blind" dates where we would have a chance to get to know more people. I still found the idea distasteful.
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Kasie H
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I must say, I am continually fascinated by the dating ... arrangements? customs? don't know the right word ... of the Mormon church. I've never been exposed to *anything* like this before! Yay Hatrack [Big Grin]
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Annie
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I must say that BYU is an abnormality. I visited a friend once and went to church with her on a Sunday that happened to be the first of the school year. There were questionnaires passed around for everyone to fill out and one of the questions was (I'm not kidding):
quote:
Marital status (choose one):
  • Married (What are you doing here?)
  • Engaged
  • Soon-to-be engaged
  • Hopefully soon-to-be engaged

Oh, that's really good for paranoia levels.

Going to a good institute outside of the bubble really spoils you, I'm afraid.

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Annie
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Apparently, we all "must say" [Big Grin]
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beverly
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When I was a student at BYU (LDS-owend university) my roommates and I created a blind dating service for fun. We painted a big advertisement on our window saying "We Match 'em, You Catch 'em" with our phone number. We actually got a few calls and did set a few people up. But then one of our other roommates freaked out about us having our phone# up on our window and made us take it down. [Frown] [Big Grin]
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katharina
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I agree about BYU being an abnormality. That really, really isn't the way it is outside Provo. Even at Utah State there were never questions about dating status on sign ups or dating councils.

I did have one bishop who vaguely wanted to test the guys for hormone levels because no one in the ward was dating. That was amusing.

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Jon Boy
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Bev, that's awesome! [ROFL]
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advice for robots
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The singles ward---the only institution dedicated to its own destruction.
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Mrs.M
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I got it from both sides when Andrew and I got engaged my senior year of college. All of my NYC college friends thought I was crazy for getting married so young and all of my Georgia friends and family were relieved that I wasn't going to be an old maid (yes, that's the expression they used).

quote:
No, the comments and stares I get here are because we've been married for two years and haven't started popping out babies. That annoys me. Our reproductive status is no one's business, and I've given stern lectures to that effect when women feel my stomach because they want to know whether or not I'm pregnant, all the while still firmly gripping the offending arm. Some women have been "kind" enough to tell me that they're praying for me to give birth to twins by Christmas. Others ask us if we're trying.
That is just so wrong. People would ask Andrew and me that and it was really hurtful to us. We lost the first baby we conceived with fertility treatments and it took us four years to get pregnant again. Why should we have to explain that to anyone? Some couples can't get pregnant and it hurts them to have to talk about it and people need to understand that.

quote:
Does it have to be your buisness to ask a personal question of a dear friend or family member?
Absolutely. When it comes to something like having children, no one should ever assume that it's their business.
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Puppy
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When our extended family members would ask us when we were having kids, the insinuation was always, "We suspect that you don't prioritize children as highly as you should, and are making a stupid life choice by delaying pregnancy," none of which was true, or even within their ability to ascertain.

And then when we DID get pregnant, it completely removed the opportunity to make a snarky comeback about it because the problem went away on its own [Smile] So there's DOUBLE the frustration ...

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raventh1
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Ah, single-life. After my mission, I'm planning on heading to BYU for Animation. Hopefully I can just coast like I have done this summer semester and not date at all [Smile] . I hate dating.
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Scott R
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Inkling is not yet 2 months old, people are asking us when we're having the next one.

I don't let it bother me. They're well intentioned.

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katharina
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It doesn't bother me when people ask anymore. Most of the time they are either looking for something to talk about or are genuinely puzzled by how it's possible that I'm not. That's okay.

I'm sure there are some, like my grandmother, that assume my priorites are out of whack, but for that I really don't care. It is soooooo none of their business, and as long as everything's cool between me and the Lord, their opinion doesn't mean anything.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:

quote:
Does it have to be your buisness to ask a personal question of a dear friend or family member?
Absolutely. When it comes to something like having children, no one should ever assume that it's their business. [/QB]
Those are two different things.

If it's my buisness, then I have the right to demand an answer.

If it's not my buisness, then I have the right to ask the question, and you have the right to decline to answer.

There's nothing wrong with asking questions that are none of your buisness. A very common one is "How are you today?"

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Olivet
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The potato has a point...

It reminds me of the 'joke' they used toplay on new kids in one of my High School art classes. One guy would tell the new guy to ask thisother guy about his sister's dance lessons. "Go on and ask him, man. It's a great story! Let him tell you..."

Then the new guy would ask, and the other guy would get all angry-looking and say, "My sister doesn't have any legs."

Of course, the guy didn't even have a sister.

But the moral of the story is that you never know what you're going to strep in when you ask a seemingly innocent question.

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mr_porteiro_head
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Any question even slightly personal could offend people if the situation were right. Where are you from? How old are you? What was your family like? How was your day today? How do you feel?

But that is no reason to stop reaching out and trying to connect or become friends with others.

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A Rat Named Dog
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There are more and less polite ways of asking personal questions, though.

"Are you guys planning to have kids?"

... is much less invasive than ...

"Why don't you have any kids yet?"

The latter presupposes that the answerer should have kids by now, for some reason, and must provide an explanation to the satisfaction of the questioner.

The former presupposes nothing, and lets the answerer set the terms of the discussion.

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Megan
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Porter, I don't think it's the reaching out that bothers people. It's the judgment that is frequently implied (or even outright stated) in questions about a couple not having children. Like Puppy said, it's the insinuation that your priorities are mistaken that is troublesome. (Well, I guess he didn't say it was troublesome. He mentioned the insinuation, and I find that insinuation troublesome.)
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Annie
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Hmm. I don't think it's the kind of issue that you can set definite guidelines on. I harrass my newly-married girlfriends about having babies as soon as they can so I can play with them, but I know them and they know me and we all understand that it's good-natured.

Perhaps rules do apply for people that you aren't really close friends with. Tricksy.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by Megan:
Porter, I don't think it's the reaching out that bothers people. It's the judgment that is frequently implied (or even outright stated) in questions about a couple not having children. Like Puppy said, it's the insinuation that your priorities are mistaken that is troublesome.

That's perfectly understandable. I agree.

I was responding to comments like "It's none of their buisness!" as though it is inherently rude to ask a question about something that is none of your buisness. It's not.

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Megan
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Fair enough, though I think Rat has a point when he mentioned the phrasing of the question in question is really the proof of the pudding.
quote:
Perhaps rules do apply for people that you aren't really close friends with. Tricksy.
I agree--non-close friends, and, to a certain extent, older family members, who have a perceived stake in the possible production of grandchildren. Really, though, it's all in the way that the question is phrased. If my in-laws say to me, "So, when are you having kids?", there's the inherent implication that we SHOULD be having kids. Your friends saying the same thing in a joking manner doesn't carry the same emotional/judgmental baggage.
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Mrs.M
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This is probably one of those situations where we'll have to agree to disagree. Since I went through the heartbreak of fertility treatments and 3 miscarriages, I will never ask anyone when or if they plan to have children, no matter how close I am to them.

For the record, I never ask people their age, either. I only ask people about their families if they've brought them up first and I never ask couples when they're going to get married.

I understand that some people ask these questions innocently. However, since I know what innocent questions have hurt me, I avoid asking them to avoid hurting others.

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Belle
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I guess it's a shared experience of infertility but I agree with Mrs. M. I don't ever ask couples about children, in any shape or form.

As a sufferer of secondary infertility (I had one child without "help" but needed fertility treatments for subsequent children) I don't even ask "When are you going to have more?" of a couple that has one child. For one thing, they may not WANT any other children and the question implies that one child is not sufficient, or good enough and that can hurt them. For another, they be like me and not able to have more children.

It's just a subject with too much potential for hurt, so I stay away from it.

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Yozhik
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quote:
I remember seeing one of the guys I grew up with in my ward, sitting several rows in front of me with his wife. They hadn't been married long. He was leaning forward, and she was casually running her fingers over his back as they listened to the speaker.
On a different note, does this kind of PDA during church squick anyone else out? [Grumble]
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Belle
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Not at all. [Smile]

I often sit with my head nestled against my husband's shoulder, or hold his hand during church. We were married in a church, we believe God has blessed our union, and we believe that our love for each other and devotion to each other glorifies and honors God.

Now certainly, making out while the preacher is talking would be innapropriate and disrespectful, but just sitting together, and being physically close and enjoying each other's company - it actually makes me happy to see married couples do that. [Smile]

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Olivet
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Most of the time when I ask people about teir children, it's because they have already mentioned something about them, we are at a playground or martial arts with a bunch of kids (where grown ups don't usually hang out for fun, or they have offered some sort of comiserating parental comment.

That one backfired on me recently, though. Ron and I took the boys to see fireworks. We had been invited by a fellow Ron had started working with. They had an area to themselves, the guy, his wife and two other married couples. There were several kids roaming around, but no way to tell who belonged to whom.

I was trying to keep the boys where I could see them, and they were being pretty good. I commented that they were getting to that age where they actually do as I say more often than not.

One of the ladies (at least ten years older than me - I think all of them were) said, "Wait 'til they're old enough to drive--then you'll have a whole new set of worries."

I plugged my ears and hummed, and we had a good laugh. Then I asked, "So, how old are yours?"

Both the women said thgey didn't have any. I was a little flustered by their 'voice of experience' advice, but they explained that they were speaking from what the third woman of their group had experienced (four of her own, two grown up and out of the house, and raising two of her grandchildren). Oy.

But I'm not so crass that I asked them why they didn't have children. They weren't treating me like a 'breeder' the way a lot of deliberately childless people will sometimes do, and I fantasized how much more freedom Ron and I would have if we were childless, and imagined them happy. They dance ballroom competitively, for crying out loud. We could never afford a babysitter that often, and have no realatives who'd volunteer to keep them. We have been without the kids overnight once in the last five years.

I mean, I LOVE my kids, but I would never feel bad for those who are simply childless. Whatever the reason, it is their own.

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Yozhik
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Hand-holding is different from running your fingers over somebody's back.

Or their thigh. [Grumble] Really, church is not that long; can't they keep from fondling each other for two hours once a week?

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Jon Boy
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I don't see how they're that different. And I definitely don't see running your fingers over someone's back as fondling.
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Olivet
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Yeah. I like running my hand over my husband's arm, touching his hair or patting his leg in the knee/thigh area whenever we're sitting together. It's not sexual, and I probably have done it in church without a second thought. Not that we have been to church in ages.

Now, I wouldn't want to see people going for the goodies in public, but nothing you described would bother me. I doubt I'd even notice it unless I was missing my Beloved for some reason. I used to notice stuff like that when Ron had to travel for work a lot. It would remind me that I missed his closeness, but I still never equated it with sex.

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TomDavidson
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Yoz, how is touching someone's back fondling? I mean, I haven't ever copped a feel in a church, but I've given Christy a neckrub there once.
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