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Author Topic: Washington City Paper feature on Mormons
BannaOj
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Can't help myself, I'm sure you guys already know the quote.
quote:

The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation
-Thoreau

Threads like this, in spite of ak's optimistic view, make me think the above is true.

AJ

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CT
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quote:
Originally posted by Tatiana:
It's been my experience that single people who desperately wish they were married usually *do* get married and then they become equally desperate about their married lives.

Wisdom, sister.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by quidscribis:
No, the comments and stares I get here are because we've been married for two years and haven't started popping out babies. That annoys me. Our reproductive status is no one's business, and I've given stern lectures to that effect when women feel my stomach because they want to know whether or not I'm pregnant, all the while still firmly gripping the offending arm. Some women have been "kind" enough to tell me that they're praying for me to give birth to twins by Christmas. Others ask us if we're trying. What, are we having sex?

Geez. And I thought we had it bad as a young married couple in Utah. I just give people vague answers when they ask us.

I was having a conversation with one of my friends the other day about "trying" to get pregnant, and we both laughed at the euphemism. "Yeah, we're trying to have a baby, and let me tell you, it sure is hard work!"

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OlavMah
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quote:
What's the general consensus on the nature of dating? I've come to agree with the sentiment that dating in N'Am culture is basically a form of formalized deception, akin to advertising. We worry about putting our "best" foot forward, making a great impression, whatever... like we expect the other person to take us at face value and then stop digging.
Regarding this and Icarus's post about friendship being a better way to find a spouse than dating. My view of dating is that a date is: formally asking a person to spend time with you and making it clear that right then your interest in them is potentially romantic. Really, that's all I think it's about, and I think this is a really important life skill and meat market tactics are an example of not dating well. People who do this don't know how to approach romance in a kind, open, and mature manner.

I think dating is essential because of what you learn about yourself and how to interact with other people. It's important to know how to handle a dating relationship that doesn't turn into romance. It's important to know how to handle being rejected when you get asked out. It's important to know how to reject a person you don't want to date by being honest and not unnecessarily cruel. But the heart of the matter is that it's important to learn how to recognize when you do feel more than friendly towards someone and express this appropriately.

Being friends first isn't a bad way to meet a spouse at all (my husband and I were friends for quite a while before we went out), but dating is an important stage of the relationship.

Being friends and never going on a date during your courtship can work, if you're lucky. If you're minds and hearts are in the same place at the same time. It can also put one of the parties through the wringer as they wonder whether or not they've got a relationship and really want to know because they really, really want one. I think that if your feelings are more than friendly and you want more than friendship, you need to be above board about it and let other people know where they stand with you. If you are, then you either end up very lonely all of the sudden (which is something you had to find out sooner or later), or end up being on what I would define as a date, and then your interactions afterwards are what I would define as dates, even if they are not your standard dinner and a movie with the guy paying kind of dates. That's what *I* mean by dating.

[ August 02, 2005, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: OlavMah ]

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
I was having a conversation with one of my friends the other day about "trying" to get pregnant, and we both laughed at the euphemism.
Maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't seem like an euphemism to me. It's not an euphemism for sex, because they aren't asking "are you having sex", because most people having sex are doing so with some sort of protection. They are asking if you are having sex in such a way to intentionally produce a pregnancy. Asking if you are trying to get pregnant seems to be an exceptionally clear and straightforward way of asking that.
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katharina
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Silly Porter. All sex leads to pregnancy.
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fugu13
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Yes, just like all driving leads to death in a car accident.
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rivka
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What a charming analogy. [Razz]
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mr_porteiro_head
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Charming or not, it's a pretty accurate analogy.
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fugu13
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I thought so.
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Jon Boy
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A euphemism is "the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant"; I would consider "trying to get pregnant" to be an inoffensive expression for "having sex without birth control with the intent of getting pregnant."
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fugu13
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And yet, people drive anyways without any intention of dying in a car accident. This does not mean all of those people aren't prepared, however much they'd prefer it not happen, for death in a car accident (say, by having life insurance and a will).
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Narnia
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quote:
Originally posted by beverly:
quote:
that most "older" people who aren't yet married simply don't want to be married badly enough -- makes a great deal of sense.
I never commented on whether I thought this was right or wrong. But it is true.

Do you really think that's true beverly? That women and men in their 30s 40s and 50s aren't married just because they don't want it badly enough?

!!

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quidscribis
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mph, no form of birth control is foolproof, with the exception of removal of ovaries and testicles. Yup, all sex has the potential to lead to pregnancy.

But any way you want to analyze that question, how does it warrant asking it? How is it anyone's business, with the exception of my doctor? And why on earth would ANYONE think that they have more information on what's best for me and my husband than we do? These aren't people I've confided in, nor were they close friends, nor were they spiritual advisors, although I wouldn't answer questions from them, either, if they had asked.

Edit to add: okay, all those posts weren't there when I started typing this . . .

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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
And yet, people drive anyways without any intention of dying in a car accident. This does not mean all of those people aren't prepared, however much they'd prefer it not happen, for death in a car accident (say, by having life insurance and a will).

I'm not sure what your point is.
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quidscribis
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I would consider "trying to get pregnant" to be an inoffensive expression for "having sex without birth control with the intent of getting pregnant."

But even when you consider that euphemism, how is it any of their business?
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Jon Boy
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Oh, it most certainly isn't their business. The comment about talking to my friend was sort of tangential.
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katharina
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I really like everything that you said, Olavmah.
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beverly
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quote:
That women and men in their 30s 40s and 50s aren't married just because they don't want it badly enough?
See the analogy I compared it to in the same post. Yes I do think it is true. I also likened it to selling one's soul.
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Olivet
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That reproductive nosiness isn't just a Mormon thing.

Ron and I were engaged for TWO YEARS (first year, he had to finish school - I was a year ahead of him and got my degree in three years. He got his degree in three years, too, but he was still behind me. Then he spent a year looking for steady work. Finally, I just said, "Heck, I have a staedy job. Let's just do this thang!"). It was two years of "When are you getting married?" and "Are you SURE you want to do this?"

Then, AT THE WEDDING RECEPTION, people started asking when we were going to have kids. After six months of being grilled at family gatherings, Ron started answering with a terse "2010". It shut them up, nevermind that I'd be 41 by then.

After four years of marriage, it changed from "When?" to "Can you?" [Eek!]

People can be so ... you know.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
A euphemism is "the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant"; I would consider "trying to get pregnant" to be an inoffensive expression for "having sex without birth control with the intent of getting pregnant."
I would say that it is used not because the word sex is so offensive, but because it is clearer and less verbose.

quote:
mph, no form of birth control is foolproof, with the exception of removal of ovaries and testicles. Yup, all sex has the potential to lead to pregnancy.
Exactly. That's what I meant.

quote:
But even when you consider that euphemism, how is it any of their business?
Does it have to be your buisness to ask a personal question of a dear friend or family member?
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beverly
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quote:
But even when you consider that euphemism, how is it any of their business?
It is so not their business. I cannot fathom a circumstance where it is appropriate for an acquaintance to say any such thing.

When it is close friends and family, it is still a very personal, invasive question. But when you are close to someone, it is more "OK" to ask personal, invasive questions. That doesn't necessarily make it OK though.

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OlavMah
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Thanks Katharina [Smile]

Am I the only person who's tempted, every time someone asks me when I'll have kids, to look really uncomfortable and say, "Well, my husband and I... have this problem...." and then watch the horrified looks that would result? I've never actually done it, mostly because I don't want to start even worse rumors about my poor husband (and they would be FALSE rumors, okay guys?), but I just think that most people don't seem to think about what they're asking. Every time you ask someone when they're having kids, you're implicitly asking them if they're having sex, if they're able to have sex, if they are not on some medication that would make pregnancy very inadvisable, etc. etc. etc. Aren't these nosy people worried at all that they might be talking to a poor young woman in an unhappy marriage with a husband who struggles with impotence and who has been sleeping on the couch all last week and... yeah okay, basic point I'm making, I just don't wanna know!

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Narnia
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quote:
Originally posted by beverly:
quote:
That women and men in their 30s 40s and 50s aren't married just because they don't want it badly enough?
See the analogy I compared it to in the same post. Yes I do think it is true. I also likened it to selling one's soul.
Ok, I understand what you mean now.

But I don't think it's true. I think a lot of older single folks want it just as badly as the folks who are willing to sell their soul for it, they may just be smarter, have a stronger testimony about God's plan for them, or comfortable enough with themselves NOT to sell their souls (among many other things). To say that these kind of people don't want it every bit as badly as the soul-sellers isn't accurate (IMO).

I feel this vibe from my aunts and uncles actually. The "Why aren't you married? It must be your fault" vibe. Because obviously, being members of my family, they don't think there's anything WRONG with me, so it must be because I don't want to get married. *buzzer* Nope. That's not it.

(I took so long to type this that I'm sure we're into another conversation by now.)

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katharina
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My best friend and her husband had their first kid after they had been married for a little over five years. She wanted to have one after two years, but he didn't. Yes, questions about when the kids would come were painful for her.

Molly being Molly, she usually came up with something that was both kind and incredibly witty. I haven't figured out how she does that. I can only manage one or the other.

Narnia: I agree with not wanting it as much, but I don't see it as a bad thing. It's saying marriage is important, but not as important as making wise decisions, respecting yourself, and listening to the Lord. I was engaged when I was 22 because I wanted to have my own family I could count on so badly, but I did it in the face of the Lord basically shouting "NOOOOOO! Don't do it, Katie!!" every time I prayed about it. I didn't do it, but I think it was as much because of self-respect as it was because of listening to the Lord.

I get crap from people about it all the time, but I figure their vote is exactly as large as their share in the consequences.

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Farmgirl
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I'm a little late with this reply, but..

Tatiana said
quote:
It's been my experience that single people who desperately wish they were married usually *do* get married and then they become equally desperate about their married lives. Perhaps they become desperate to have children, then their children are born and they are disappointed in them and they become desperate for their children to have all the honors and accolades that other people's children seem to have, and so on. Or their spouse doesn't live up to their expectations and they become desperately unhappy for that reason.
You have no idea how badly I wish I could copy and paste that into an e-mail to my son. But he would be greatly offended, so I won't.

But I really see him as just such a person as you describe. He is not a "happy" person in general, and he desparately wants to get married (he doesn't even have a girlfriend at this point). I see it as something that he thinks will "make him happy and make all life better" kind of deal.

But I know, as an adult, that if he is looking for happiness outside of himself, then he won't find it in marriage -- because that isn't the way it works. And he would do just like you say -- then think a child would make him happy, or whatever. -- It would always be something just beyond his reach.

[Frown]

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Jon Boy
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I think it's impossible to quantify how badly someone wants to get married. It's all just speculation.
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mr_porteiro_head
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My speculation is 1.9 times bigger than your speculation.
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Narnia
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Woah, now let's not get into THAT...speaking of euphamisms. [Wink]
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
But I really see him as just such a person as you describe. He is not a "happy" person in general, and he desparately wants to get married (he doesn't even have a girlfriend at this point). I see it as something that he thinks will "make him happy and make all life better" kind of deal.
I am so glad that somebody told me the truth of this long before I got married.

I ran into a friend from years ago who had gotten married in the meantime, and I asked her "How's married life?" Her response was "Mostly like single life." It blew my mind. She continued to explain that if you are a happy or an unhappy person while single, getting married won't change it. The things that were important to you before are still the things that are important to you.

I thought long and hard on this and it really changed my views about marriage.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Woah, now let's not get into THAT...speaking of euphamisms. [Wink]
>_<
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beverly
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quote:
I think a lot of older single folks want it just as badly as the folks who are willing to sell their soul for it, they may just be smarter, have a stronger testimony about God's plan for them, or comfortable enough with themselves NOT to sell their souls (among many other things). To say that these kind of people don't want it every bit as badly as the soul-sellers isn't accurate (IMO).
I agree with this. I wasn't the first to say that they "just don't want it badly enough". That was Kat's statement, I just "played" with it, partly tongue-in-cheek because it does get across entirely the *wrong* idea, IMO.
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Zalmoxis
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Tatiana:

You rock.

OlavMah:

You're not the only one (warning: graphic Mormon-related content, whining, genitilia mentions, and some serious snarkiness).

And you're comments on dating and friendship are spot on.

EDIT: UBB Code.

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Narnia
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[Smile] (in response to beverly) Yeah, and I agree with Jon Boy too. Part of the wrong idea is the idea that we can measure how much someone else wants something. That's just silly.

Edit: Zal, I agree with you about OlavMah. Girl makes SENSE! [Smile]

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Jon Boy
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From Zal's link:
quote:
I’ve always thought it was kind of gross when people mention that they’re in the process of “trying” to have a baby.
quote:
James M.: That is why I never ask whether or not people are “trying to have a baby.” Instead I say, “So, are you and your wife having lots of unprotected sex?”
See! This is what I'm talking about!
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Narnia
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Yeah, that is basically what you're asking when you use the word 'try.' [Big Grin]
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OlavMah
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*laughs* now that's really funny. I've been invited to join Times and Seasons twice, but didn't have the time either time. No wonder they wanted me around their forum, or at least, one of them did.

Glad to see that my loooong posts aren't just an annoyance. I tend to digest life very audibly... or... expositionally, or whatever the word is when you're typing rather than talking....

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mr_porteiro_head
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I see your point, JB. I think that maybe you were right and I was wrong.
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beverly
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Narnia, it used to annoy me when Porter would talk about how anybody could get a boyfriend/girlfriend if they *really* wanted. After all, *he* never had any trouble, right?

Well, or course he was a tall, deep-voiced, confident, smart, funny, good-looking guy.

I think the key element there is the confidence. And not everybody has it. And I think it is unfair to say that if someone doesn't have confidence it's 'cause they don't want it bad enough. Sounds like something my dad would say. >.<

Edit: Just to clarify, I am not saying that if a person doesn't have a boy/girlfriend they don't have confidence. Man. It's so easy to put my foot in my mouth.

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Kasie H
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quote:
Edit: Just to clarify, I am not saying that if a person doesn't have a boy/girlfriend they don't have confidence. Man. It's so easy to put my foot in my mouth.
I wouldn't have taken that as such...I think that it's relatively universally acknowledged that confidence is sexy. A confident person, in general, draws people to them. I also think it's why so many friendships evolve into better relationships -- from the outset, you are comfortable with and confident in the relationship you have with that person.

This does not mean that people who are not confident about themselves cannot find anyone to date/marry.

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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I see your point, JB. I think that maybe you were right and I was wrong.

And . . . sig!
quote:
Originally posted by beverly:
Well, or course he was a tall, deep-voiced, confident, smart, funny, good-looking guy.

My first thought was, "That was me, except for the confidence." [Smile]
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mr_porteiro_head
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:pirate:
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Zalmoxis
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OlavMah:

Sheesh -- don't they have enough lawyers there already? I had no idea they were recruiting more.

[Big Grin]

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OlavMah
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Yeah, they specifically wanted to recruit a woman lawyer and I was Adam G's mentor during his summer job at a law firm, poor guy.

All right, bye for now, Hatrackers. I gotta pack for a trip (I say this but because maybe if I type it out, I will stop logging in to Hatrack and instead focus on what I'm supposed to be doing.)

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Goo Boy
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OlavMah, I think we're talking about two different things (and it's my fault for being imprecise). In each romantic relationship I have had, we have dated. What I was focusing on was how I met the woman I was dating. I have always preferred a dating relationship that grew from a friendship. I assumed this was what OSC was talking about, but now I'm not so certain. Maybe I've misinterpreted Kat the same way as well.
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BannaOj
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quote:
I think that it's relatively universally acknowledged that confidence is sexy. A confident person, in general, draws people to them.
Hmmm. I think there is a fine line. Confidence may be sexy in the abstract, however, it is often intimidating in the concrete, particularly to those who have less confidence in themselves.

You could look at it as a weed-out for finding people with equal amounts of self-essteem. But it really sucks when someone is actually well adjusted and exudes self-confidence, and yet can't find a date, because everyone is too intimidated to ask.

AJ

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katharina
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There is also the downside of confidence, which is when people without confidence latch onto you in hopes that it will rub off. Without experience, it can be hard to tell the difference between someone is shy but confident themselves and someone who wants to coast on your sunshine.
quote:
Maybe I've misinterpreted Kat the same way as well.
I'm not sure what conversation you are referring to, but if it's the "I like guys who ask me out", that is actually referring to the beginning of the romantic part of the relationship, not the beginning of the aquaintance.
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littlemissattitude
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Does it have to be your buisness to ask a personal question of a dear friend or family member?

Yes, I think it does. I cannot fathom the idea that just because someone is a family member or a friend, it's okay to ask them just anything you are curious about, even if it isn't any of your business. I don't like being asked questions about my personal life, and I don't ask others about personal matters in their lives. Because it isn't any of my business no matter how curious I might be.

This was one of the issues I had with the church, when I was active. People who I barely knew kept asking me questions that I wouldn't even ask of a close family member. When I told them it wasn't any of their business, they acted like I was the one in the wrong. Some people just have more guts than brains, is what I think.

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Annie
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This may be out of place, but I am reminded of a conversation I had a couple months back at Nauvoo. The question of the thread was "what is the purpose of Singles activities?" Most of the points I made in my answer are things I've wanted to say at various places throughout this thread, so I thought I'd just share what I wrote before:

I just left a YSA ward that I loved and adored and moved home for a while. My mother is single (divorced) and currently serving as a ward singles rep, and I have been called as the stake YSA representative, which is very different here in a rural area where the few young singles we do have typically drive to a neighboring stake to attend a University ward.

My mom and the other singles leaders (including our amazing high council supervisor) deal with the initial questions of this thread all of the time. Among those who are regular attenders of singles activities, it isn't as much of a problem, but there is a lot of opposition, confusion, and hurt feelings created in both the non-single population of the stake and those who are single but don't want anything to do with the program.

There is a very real stigma surrounding the singles program, especially for those over 30. The thought that it is merely a matchmaking program drives away many who it is meant to serve and many who need to be more supportive of it. The older singles are treated like lepers, not like fellow Saints and children of God. I have heard many of the young singles comment on how "creepy" the older unmarried men are and how they never want to be at that stage in life where they have to attend those dances. It hurts me that such an unChristlike attitude is so prevalent.

The purpose of the singles program is to love and to serve those who are single. If you look at the statistics in the church about who is inactive and who is single, there is a large correlation. People feel unwanted, unwelcome, and uncomfortable when they are not part of the ideal family that we all strive for but we aren't all blessed with. When we perpetuate the stigma of the singles program being a dating service for the desperate, we widen the gulf that separates us from those who need our support the most. Our own prophet is a single adult! Is he the kind of creepy old man we want to avoid by not going to singles dances?

Read through the New Testament sometime and note the number of times the Savior mentions widows. (I'm going to expand this definition to include widowers, divorcess and those never married) He would have us love them. He would have us do all we can to make sure their difficult burdens are lightened. He would have us make them feel wanted and include them and reach out to those who feel alienated. You'll notice that among His dying words were an admonition to His beloved disciple to care for His mother (whom many conjecture was a widow at this point.) If we want to be better disciples, should we not try to do the same?

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Amanecer
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quote:
I don't like being asked questions about my personal life, and I don't ask others about personal matters in their lives.
I think that's where the problem occurs. Not everybody feels that way. I do ask personal questions of people I'm close to and I expect them to ask personal questions of me. To me, that's just part of being close.
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