posted
I think it all depends on how you are using the term "nice guy." People who portray themselves as "nice guys" are sometimes trying too hard (hence the stalkerishness) or are sometimes using their niceness to cover up for insecurity, as people have said. I think that the difference is between people like Happy Camper, who are genuinely good human beings who get the nice guy label from their friends, and those people who shove their "niceness" in your face and expect you to be impressed by it.
On the dating thing, I think I got very lucky at university, because it was completely cool to go out for coffee, drinks, dinner, theatre, movie, whatever, with a guy, without it being a date. In fact, we had a word for it among my group of friends - NAD (not a date). So although I only had two relationships during my three years of university (one of six months and one that has lasted until now and will, I hope, last the rest of my life) I got lots of stress-free dating practice! So when I met Rob, I was fairly relaxed about being on my own with a guy, and I think that this, accompanied by us being close friends for a long time before getting together, made the whole process really really easy. I hope that helps!
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posted
Yeah, this isn't a vilifications of nice guys, this is a vilification of "the nice guy." As I've said, I don't think there is very much that IS nice about the nice guy, he's just bitter and pretending.
About "good listeners," its the same thing. A good listener contributes to a conversation, and in essence is just a good conversationalist. But the "good listener" who is like "the nice guy," isn't really listening for the right reasons, and doesn't really care anyway.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Well, there *are* nice guys who finish last. They are, in fact, the last guys women ever date; another term for them is "husbands". Most people have a few false starts before the find the right person and I've had several guy friends find themselves with the woman they've been crazy about for years when she suddenly wakes up to the fact that her best friend would actually make an ideal romantic partner.
To pull up something from waaay back in the thread. I don't think your behavior, Orincoro, with the first girl you posted about, qualifies as "crap". I would also suggest that you not date pH. Just sensing some incapatibility there.
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posted
Maybe "kind" should be the idea, instead of nice? Kind includes telling others what they don't want to hear but need to - but doing so gently, instead of abrasively. Granted, sometimes the only thing that will work is a verbal slap, but not all situations need that.
Nice, to me, just implies shallowness. It's a face that you can put on. Kindness is something that runs much deeper - it reflects more of who you really are.
[Edit: I thought this was interesting.]
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by OlavMah: Well, there *are* nice guys who finish last. They are, in fact, the last guys women ever date; another term for them is "husbands". Most people have a few false starts before the find the right person and I've had several guy friends find themselves with the woman they've been crazy about for years when she suddenly wakes up to the fact that her best friend would actually make an ideal romantic partner.
To pull up something from waaay back in the thread. I don't think your behavior, Orincoro, with the first girl you posted about, qualifies as "crap". I would also suggest that you not date pH. Just sensing some incapatibility there.
But see, the husband is the ultimate in WINNAR!11!! in the game of life.
Yeah, most people on this board probably wouldn't have too much fun dating me. I'm high-strung.
posted
'Nice' is not a general personality description.
You can be charismatic, loud, interesting, assertive, and funny and be a perfectly nice guy. I would date a guy like that in a heartbeat. And you can be meek, passive, soft-spoken and thoughtful and be a jerk.
Perhaps people are really refering to strong personalities versus subdued ones. Most women I know prefer the former to the latter. But, importantly this does not mean that guys with strong, outgoing, attitudes aren't nice or are a-holes and it does not mean that women like jerks.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
When I hear the term "nice guy" applied to someone, it usually comes off the same way as when a girl is described as "having great personality." It's a polite way to say they don't have a lot going for them.
Women who are great catches can have a lot of personality, and men who are great catches can be friendly and kind, but the term "nice guy" is usually reserved for guys who can't get a date, just as the girl "with a great personality" is the one who doesn't get a date.
Most women do want a guy who is nice, but that's not the end of the line. If a guy tries to be nice and ignores all the other things women want, he'll never get anywhere.
The "nice guy" listens to his female friend complain about how bad her boyfriend is, while he secretly wants to date her, but she ends up going back to her lame boyfriend, because while he may not be nice, he's masculine, or exciting, or sexy, or confident.
The "nice guy" needs to know that being nice is way down the list for women. Yes, they wish their boyfriend were nicer, but they don't want a nice guy boyfriend.
I would venture that women's lists go something like this:
Strong/Masculine - not just "sexy body", but also attitude Funny/Entertaining - makes her laugh, shows her a good time Interesting/Smart - likes the things she likes, good conversationalist Nice/Kind/Thoughtful - remembers her favorite flower, opens doors for her, nice to waiters
The list isn't the same for all women, but being nice is just part of the package, and as all "nice guys" know, it's not even close to the most important part.
A woman will date a sexy, fun guy who can be a jerk sometimes, but she won't date a really nice guy who doesn't make her laugh or turn her on.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Strong/Masculine - not just "sexy body", but also attitude Funny/Entertaining - makes her laugh, shows her a good time Interesting/Smart - likes the things she likes, good conversationalist Nice/Kind/Thoughtful - remembers her favorite flower, opens doors for her, nice to waiters
See, those are all jumbled for me. Because confidence, to me, is only sexy when it's paired with staggering intelligence. Intelligence generally leads to the ability to be entertaining. It also generally leads to an understanding that one needs to be thoughtful. This is not always the case, but I will only tolerate a smart, funny, interesting asshole for so long.
I think of it more as a Sims personality trait kind of thing. Like you start with 100 points, and you divide them among the major qualities, and certain combinations are more desirable than others.
posted
Hmmm, I can honestly say that Masculinity (especially not the physical kind) is NOT sought out by my female friends, and is, in fact, usually a turn-OFF. Most of my male friends (they'll agree with me, and it is often a topic of conversation with them so I'm allowed to say this) are very un-masculine, and I'd hope any boyfriends my friends add to the mix would be able to associate with the group.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Also, most guys are 'nice guys' when trying to get a girl to date them--we aren't going to find someone who ignores us from the start attractive.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
That hasn't exactly been my experience. My experience has been the more I ignore the girl, the more she likes me. And the more attentive I am, the less she likes me.* People like a challenge, and they want what they can't have.
*This is, of couse, based off a very small data set.
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posted
I have a friend who needs, craves, and must be smothered. Whereas I would feel overwhelmed seeing a romantic prospect more than once a week. There's balances, sure, and there's the individual.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:As for masculinity...there's a delicate balance there. Also depends on how you define "masculinity."
I think some people confuse masculine with macho. For me anyway, masculine is good, macho is not. Guys who are macho are insecure about their masculinity, and try to cover it by trying too hard to prove that they're guys.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
That's exactly how I feel, Midnight. Guys who are all, "I AM MAN" are generally the ones who are the most insecure. Guys who will help you pick out bath mats are usually pretty secure about their masculinity.
I don't mind seeing a romantic prospect for more than a week, obviously, but I can't deal with feeling as though there are restrictions being placed on what I can do. In other words, yeah, you're my boyfriend. But if Guy X wants to go to the movies with me, I'm gonna go, so long as he knows that I have a boyfriend and so long as I don't find him absolutely repulsive. I can't handle always being controlled or accused of cheating.
quote:Originally posted by MidnightBlue: I think some people confuse masculine with macho. For me anyway, masculine is good, macho is not. Guys who are macho are insecure about their masculinity, and try to cover it by trying too hard to prove that they're guys.
Masculity does not require the masculine person to: profess his expertise at "picking up hoes," drive a "fly" car, work his abs, wear pooka shells or gold chains, don a wife beater, walk with a ridiculous limp and one pant leg raised to the calf, and say things like "keepin it reaaal yo!"
I am sometimes confronted too with the wallstreety/carsalesman/blowhard guys who talk in such a transparently egotistical and affected manner, it is all I can do not to laugh out loud. Sometimes I meet these people and like them immediately, because they at first appear to be a very funny normal person who is doing an impression of one of these types. Something eventually suggests to me that this is not a joke, this is really.... and really really funny. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:profess his expertise at "picking up hoes," drive a "fly" car, work his abs, wear pooka shells or gold chains, don a wife beater, walk with a ridiculous limp and one pant leg raised to the calf, and say things like "keepin it reaaal yo!"
posted
It's like those 1337 kids. You think they're being funny, but they're actually serious. L1f3 p10x?
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Again, a delicate balance. Be attentive without being overbearing and possessive.
No offense, pH, but if someone I was attempting to be in a relationship actually articulated that, I would seriously begin to wonder if they were worth the trouble. Not so much the sentiment itself, but because I most often see it from people who are also expecting their significant others to read their mind.
As someone with two sisters and a mother who all went through their share of early lousy relationships, I suspect a certain amount of experience and/or fatigue has to set in for many women before they start looking for "nice" over "exciting". I think many women are also so used to men acting a certain way that the first time one expresses an interest in what *she* wants, they're nonplussed and may interpret it as being passive-aggressive. Whereas the man who goes for what *he* wants, without much care for what anyone else might think, comes off as confident. At least at first.
Generalizations, I realize.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:No offense, pH, but if someone I was attempting to be in a relationship actually articulated that, I would seriously begin to wonder if they were worth the trouble. Not so much the sentiment itself, but because I most often see it from people who are also expecting their significant others to read their mind.
I don't expect anyone to read my mind. But I expect him to care about how I feel without keeping me on a leash.
posted
I suspect that you like for him to be able to read your mind... but experience has taught you that this is an unreasonable expectation. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I don't expect anyone to read my mind. But I expect him to care about how I feel without keeping me on a leash.
I understand. But people's definitions of "possessive" can vary a lot. For some people, it would be "You don't go anywhere without me, I control both our finances." For some, it would be "While we're in this relationship, remain sexually monogomous." For a few, possessiveness is "Can I have your phone number."
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
To me, possessiveness is telling me what I can and cannot do with my free time. One of my ex boyfriends wouldn't let me leave the house without him because he was afraid that I was going to cheat on him. I have to be able to go out on my own with whoever I want.
I think that it's reasonable to expect a monogamous relationship...once the two of you have decided to begin a monogamous relationship. Getting unreasonably angry (ie. punching a hole in your wall and kicking me out of your house) when you find out I kissed another guy despite the fact that all indications were that you didn't know if you wanted a relationship or not is not cool.
Plus, I think it's important to treat the other person in a way that indicates that you know the very simplest of truths about your relationship: it's voluntary. He/she chooses to be there.
quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre: Hmmm, I can honestly say that Masculinity (especially not the physical kind) is NOT sought out by my female friends, and is, in fact, usually a turn-OFF. Most of my male friends (they'll agree with me, and it is often a topic of conversation with them so I'm allowed to say this) are very un-masculine, and I'd hope any boyfriends my friends add to the mix would be able to associate with the group.
Maybe we have a different idea of what makes a guy masculine. I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
Women tend to want a man who makes them feel more feminine, and the best way to do that is being more masculine than they are.
I'm not talking about guys who are beefcakes, or jocks or GQ men. I'm also not sure exactly what you mean when you said you would want any new boyfriends to be able to associate with the group. I know lots of masculine men who have no problem associating with anyone. In fact, I would say that part of being masculine is being confident enough to associate with most people.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I think one of the biggest turn-offs for women are the guys who can't distinguish between "macho" and masculine.
The funny part of that is that the same women who would complain about that to me when I was dating seemed to have the same problem distinguishing between them as well.
It got real old, real fast, being the "nice" guy, eve though I was only being myself. Or so I thought at the time. It wasn't until years later that I finally got it. I stopped being a doormat, and for over a year I didn't date at all, really. Once I was fine being alone, I realized I was ready to be with someone else.
I never stopped wanting a relationship, but I stopped letting women take advantage of me. I was more than a shoulder to cry on....I DESERVED to be more than that.
I realized that I was as much to blame as the women were, for allowing myself to be undervalued, and I just learned to cut my losses if things weren't working out. I wasn't interested in being "just friends" with them, because I wanted more. I wasn't rude, or dismissive, I just moved on when it was clear it wasn't working out.
To me, that wasn't being arrogant or macho, it was being assertive, and it was one of the hardest thing I had to learn. I had to take responsibility for my end of the "nice" guy syndrome...I was letting them use me as an emotional release and getting nothing but a "nice" label out of it, and it sucked.
Now I am married to a wonderful woman who NEVER undervalues me, and I look at some of my friends who are still single and clubbing around...and all I can think is how glad I am that that isn't me. I am still nice, but nice means more than it use to, at least for me. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: Maybe we have a different idea of what makes a guy masculine. I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
This is why I'm kind of getting frustrated, because that is EXACTLY what I meant by "masculine." Are other parts of the country that different that this is Ideal? Or (more likely) is my group of friends that out of the ordinary? I feel so far removed from what most people are expressing in this thread, it makes me wonder.
Hmm, by "associate" I think I mean more be able to hang out with, fit in, and not be 'The Boyfriend' and instead just another one of us. Like Borg. Haha.
Though the part of physically bigger is definitely true of all females I know, though also for most females I know (not including me, I'm a whole 'nother story) they don't have to think about it because most guys *are* larger and stronger than they are.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I for one go for the opposite. I mean, yeah, it's important for a guy to stand up for himself, but I don't go for stronger than me. I go for the cute, rather geeky guys who are funny and fun to be around. They're who I surround myself with, and who I can really see myself having an actual relationship with, because I know that I'm compatable with them.
I'm with you Myrddin. Don't worry. I just wish that all the guys around me would see that an awesome person is standing right next to them.
My problem is that I'm one of the guys. I hang out with them all the time, joke with them, and almost never dress up for them. So they don't see me as dating material, which is a problem, because the guys I hang out with are the types of guys that I would like to date. I feel like for me, I'm the female counterpart to being the "nice guy."
Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
That sounds like me, I have more guy friends than girl friends, and the friends I would confide in are almost all male. But while my friends are the kind of people I could see myself dating, I couldn't see myself dating *them*... they're my friends!
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posted
Unless you are a sexually attractive individual in the first place, all these tips on picking up girls/guys are moot.
No girl or guy would approach a person who they do not find sexually attractive, and a lot of people in the world (according to that episode of seinfeld) are not attractive. What do you say to them, kind people? What advice for them?
It's very idealistic to say you love someone for their mind. Nevermind actions, appearence is the first impression.
Posts: 340 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: Maybe we have a different idea of what makes a guy masculine. I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
That is and isn't what I look for. I don't have to worry about the bigger/stronger thing, because I'm tiny and not particularly strong. While I certainly don't mind that my boyfriend is bigger and stronger than me, I really would care if he wasn't. I am far more attracted to character and personality than to physical attributes. (I know a lot of people say that, and for a lot it's a load of bull, but I generally won't find a guy physically attractive until I'm already attracted to his personality.) As for as being assertive and standing up for me, it's a nice thought, but I'm pretty strong-willed as it is. I'm capable of standing up for myself. I do agree about the sense of security, but I don't see it physical security. He isn't my body guard, he's my boyfriend. (edit)To me it's more of a mental/emotional security. If something happens, I know he'll be there for me. (/edit) So I'd like to think that I can return that security.
I don't think that list really has anything to do with masculine. Can a guy who is short, thin, and not very strong never be masculine because he won't be bigger or stronger than his girlfriend? Is it unmasculine to let a girl stand up for herself if she's perfectly capable of doing so? While those are qualities that some (maybe a lot) of women value, thinking that those are requirements of masculinity is wrong. It's the guys who always think they need to prove they're bigger, stronger, in charge of every situation that come off as macho and insecure.
Everyone is different, and everyone is looking for someone with different qualities, but I think the most important thing is to know who you are, not be ashamed of who you are, and to have some idea of what you're looking for in a man/woman.
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posted
And they matter most for shallow people whom I wouldn't want to be with anyway.
Not that appearance is unimportant. It is important. Just not as important as we have been led to believe. Lots of people are married, and most of them, male and female, are NOT built like gods or goddesses.
Attractive and appealing are two different (if related) things, and I am glad. If they were the same thing I would undoubtedly still be single. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Gecko: Unless you are a sexually attractive individual in the first place, all these tips on picking up girls/guys are moot.
As several people have said Gecko, it's not all about physical attractiveness. That plays a factor, but being hot is about a lot of other things, like being funny, sincere, honest, strong... etc.
There are a lot of people who are not considered classically beautiful, heck, there are downright ugly people, who are considered "sexy", because they have that style, confidence, humor, and so on that attracts people.
If you look like your face was used as a World Cup practice field, you may not want to shoot for a super model, but if you have a lot of other things going for you, you too can get a date.
Somewhere in the world, everybody has someone who finds them hot. Just keep looking until you find them Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: There are a lot of people who are not considered classically beautiful, heck, there are downright ugly people, who are considered "sexy", because they have that style, confidence, humor, and so on that attracts people.
And, like funny, "sexy"... Hell, "attractive"... Varies a lot from person to person.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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I do appreciate a guy being "bigger" than I am. Which is tough to come by, since I'm Myr's height. I was used to dating guys who were three inches shorter than me, on average, until I dated a 6'10" basketball player. Then it was like, "...he can put his chin on top of my head! That is SO COOL!"
But once I got into college, it became easier to find guys who were over 6'. I don't know why, since I mostly dated college-age guys to begin with.
So while I don't mind a guy not towering over me, I do like it if he has a couple inches on me. And preferably is not thinner than me, although that's not a hard-and-fast rule. I want him to be assertive but not a bully. I mean, I'm assertive and sometimes a bully, even though I don't mean to be; I'm just very...volatile. We really don't need two of me. And besides, he's gotta be able to respect that I want to have my own career and will probably not be happy sitting at home playing wife.
posted
I think people's physical attractiveness levels can change a lot depending on circumstances and desirability of their personality. I am married to someone that I did not have an immediate physical attration to but now can't get enough of. I think the people society views as "hot" or "attractive" probably do have an easier time getting a first date from a stranger of very casual acquaintance but I do think most people will give someone they click with personality wise a chance even if they are not the most sexy person in the world to them at that moment.
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posted
Lots of women I've spoken too have told me, "I didn't think he was anything much at first, but once I saw him dance/play music/debate politics/talk down a bully/paint, etc. I was super attracted to him."
There are a lot of areas where attractiveness comes into play.
The above conversations were from women of a variety of ages, races, and social groups while I was working at a dating company.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
That's very true for me. If I see someone in their element, whether it's the environment or the task (uniforms always a plus ) I warm up to the person quicker.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
Women tend to want a man who makes them feel more feminine, and the best way to do that is being more masculine than they are.
Just popped in to check out this thread and saw the above. Wanted to say I think it's a load of crap. You're saying basically that most women want a man who can take care of them. That is certainly not what I look for, and isn't what the vast majority of my female friends look for.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I am the opposite of ElJay in that I do prefer men who fit the stereotypical gender norm and who will coexist with me in a heteronormative relationship. I do believe that I could only be happy in a relationship where the man is dominant, both financially and personally.
However, that's just how I am and I wouldn't say it's better or worse than being completely independent or the female having the assertive role. It depends on the person. I am at one end of the spectrum and there are plenty of people who feel differently and are the opposite. Thus, it's not a good assumption to make about most straight women--in fact, it's generally not a good idea to draw common tenets about such a large set of individuals in the first place.
EDIT: And ugly men can get hot/interesting women. Don't even worry about your appearence besides keeping it neat. It's the ugly girls where looks is major a handicap.
[ June 06, 2006, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Kristen ]
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I prefer to be on more of an equal standing, but I do appreciate stereotypical "masculine" characteristics. At the same time, I will have nothing to do with any man who is not okay with me having my own career and wanting to share any household duties. Yes, I want someone who can take care of me, but I also want to be able to take care of him as well.
posted
ElJay: There's a vast gulf between a man who has the ability to take care of a woman, and the woman actually needing the man to do so. I'm not suggesting that because a man is strong and confident that he tries to coddle his girlfriend. A masculine guy doesn't take anything away from his partner's self-reliance.
Are you and your female friends seriously looking for men who are smaller and weaker than you, complacent, meek, and subservient? I do smell some crap, but I'm not sure where it's coming from Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I think we're more talking what people are drawn to, instead of what they are looking for. Usually people aren't really looking for a particular sort of person with quite so many parameters, though they find themselves continually interested in people who have certain characteristics in common.
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You're saying basically that most women want a man who can take care of them. That is certainly not what I look for, and isn't what the vast majority of my female friends look for.
