posted
"World of hurt" is the present baseline even with expectations of platform exclusivity. If Final Fantasy 13 and Metal Gear Solid 4 become multi-platform, the Playstation line is dead.Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Kotaku has an interesting article tracking the average price of PS3s resold on eBay, and an informal survey of calling retailers to see how many are getting returned and how long they're staying in stock.
That's what they get for buying 20 of them to resale when there was a mother/father behind them in line who just wanted to get the stupid thing for their kids to play with.
Posts: 871 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Sony's video-game business is easily its crown jewel. At its best, it has provided more than 60% of Sony's operating profit despite hovering around 10% of overall Sony revenue.
Oh I can only imagine how a company with Sony's intelligent executive leadership could manage to become reliant on a console gaming market share that it just decided to ruin!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I understand that it's a parody. I just find myself immediately disliking anything that tells me what an idot for not purchasing it. That is the general purpose of the mac ads and seems to me the intent behind the g4 spot.
I also object to the enforcment of some very unproductive stereotyping of females in the spot.
I happen to like the wii. The wiimote is lots of fun. Unfortunately they are unlikely to get my money because of thier lack of titles that interest me.
Posts: 686 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
calaban, my point is that it seems odd to say "That video made me not want to buy a wii" when it's not nintendo putting out the video. I have the same reaction to the mac ads: I think they're condescending (and often false). But those are commercials made by Apple so it's fair to judge Apple by them, while this is not a commercial made by nintendo. If you think the commercial is sexist, then it's G4TV being sexist and you shouldn't watch their programming. AFAIK, nintendo had nothing to do with this video or approved its content in any way.
As for the games, yeah I agree completely that if there's no titles you want to play on the wii then you shouldn't get one. That's a big part of why I don't get buying a PS3 at launch - none of the launch titles are "must play" games, IMHO.
posted
Also if anything it was PS3 calling you an idiot, not Wii. Had the ad been produced by Nintendo, they'd be saying, "Yeah sure the other guy has all these fancy features, but how about just having some fun?" The Sony chick was calling the other girl stupid for not going for the fancier machine if you ask me.
Regardless though, it was made by a third party, which I think renders the argument moot.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I think a better set of women for the parody would be:
PS3: Play-boy playmate type. Big hair, big breasts, big lips, lots of make-up (could have used the Wii girl from the parody above). Wii: Girl next door type. Very cute.
The two talking would quickly reveal that while the PS3 girl was flashy, there wasn't much substance below the surface, and that she was very high maintenance. The Wii girl's dialog would reveal she was cute and fun, low maintenance, and would be great to go on a date with.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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Much more accurate with the sales from Japan I've been hearing.
Also, speaking as maybe one of the only people who actually has a PS3, what's with the Sony-hate bandwagoning? Sure, their PR department is a bunch of arrogant airheads. So what? That doesn't make the system better or worse in it's own right. Besides, the three games I've played for the PS3 so far have been quite fun, while only one of my Wii games (Trauma Center) has kept me hooked. LOZ:TP just can't keep me entertained when stellar games like Okami take the same gameplay and make it even better.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Which post(s) would you consider examples of this?* All I see is people posting news about the launches of the systems, pretty objectively for the most part. Sony has has a lot of troubles with this launch, mostly supply issues - that's not "hate". You'll note that people posted about the Wii strap issues on the first page too, also not "hate."
Oh, and I agree that the tracking link in the OP is not necessarily accurate. I'd be more interested in seeing actual year-end sales reports, whenever those come out.
*EDIT: I'd grant Samprimary's second post on this page as Sony-bashing. Still, that's one post.
Which post(s) would you consider examples of this? All I see is people posting news about the launches of the systems, pretty objectively for the most part. Sony has has a lot of troubles with this launch, mostly supply issues - that's not "hate". You'll note that people posted about the Wii strap issues on the first page too, also not "hate."
That wasn't directed towards people here, but a general question overall. If you spend time on any video game forum, it's become PS3 fanboys vs. everyone else, basically. Even, who was it, Time or Newsweek, jumped on the bandwagoning and called the PS3 a failure. I think that's rather harsh, as it has some pretty decent games.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Ah, that's different then. In my experience video game forums are overrun with childish "the system/brand I like is awesome and all others are crap" fanboy posts, so I don't give any of that much stock. It does look like recently it's gone from a 3-way free for all to the Xbox and Wii camps against the PS3. A few possible reasons:
-PS2 was the big winner of the last gen, and people always want to topple whoever's on top. -Perceived weakness. If an Xbox fanboy wants to "score points" on the other fanboys he's going to have a lot easier time targeting the PS3 than the Wii. Swap "Wii" and "Xbox" there and it's still accurate. -Some Sony executives have been saying things a lot of people perceive as arrogant so they're enjoying the chance to rub that back in Sony's face.
I think Newsweek said that the PS3 launch was a failure, which is pretty accurate. It's far too early to call the system itself a failure, of course, but the launch did not go well by any objective standard. I don't think that article is "jumping on the bandwagon" though, because it's not like they were reading Sony-bashing in games forums and decided to get in on that. They're looking at sales figures and seeing supply problems and flagging demand.
btw, which PS3 games did you get? Favorite one so far?
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: btw, which PS3 games did you get? Favorite one so far?
Good points.
I own Ridge Racer 7, and have rented Resistence. I don't have an HDTV, but both look really good and are pretty fun. My favorite is Resistence, just a nice change from COD and Gears.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:*EDIT: I'd grant Samprimary's second post on this page as Sony-bashing. Still, that's one post.
And that's pretty low-grade Sony bashing. We can't be mollycoddling their public relations record now, wot wot.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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im going to get a wii mainly for one reason. Smash Bros: Brawl is on it. there will prolly be other games i get later on. maybe. but smash bros is simply a system seller for me.
Posts: 813 | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:*EDIT: I'd grant Samprimary's second post on this page as Sony-bashing. Still, that's one post.
And that's pretty low-grade Sony bashing. We can't be mollycoddling their public relations record now, wot wot.
However, let's not forget how Nintendo boasted their N64 would make visuals that rival the CG in movies. Or their 2 year exclusivity contract forced on developers back in the NES/SNES era, or how they made the SNES CD add-on with Sony, then pulled out of the project not once but twice by telling the public before Sony. Or saying the market "wasn't ready" for CD based games and using cartridges instead for the N64.
Nintendo's done some stupid, bad things too. Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Did anyone here say nintendo was perfect or hadn't made mistakes? Do any of those things that happened 10+ years ago and at least 2 generations of consoles ago have any relevance to this thread's discussion of the current generation of consoles and how their launches are doing? And come on, how could you leave the Virtual Boy off that list?
Sorry, but your post just reminds me of the "fanboy" sort of thing that annoys me about most gaming forums. Just speaking for myself, I'm not here to root for "my" system and I'd hate to see the thread devolve into that sort of thing.
One thing you mentioned that I am interested in though: exclusivity. Are exclusivity contracts really a "stupid, bad thing"? Every console has exclusives, and sometimes that's the big draw. The main reason I bought a PS2 is there are games on it I can't play on anything else. The Halo games were a huge draw for Xbox, and at least one poster here as said he'd buy a PS3 no matter what it cost because it's what Final Fantasy XIII was going to be on. As a gamer I'd like to be able to just get one system and have it play all the games, but I know that's not happening anytime soon.
On a related note, I've seen a lot of games in development that were originally going to be PS3 exclusives now going to Xbox 360 as well. I can see a lot of games being on both PS3 and 360 but not the Wii. The graphics aren't as powerful and the control is different than the other two. I know at least one game came out on all three (Call of Duty, I think?) but I expect with this gen that will be the exception more than the norm.
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: Sorry, but your post just reminds me of the "fanboy" sort of thing that annoys me about most gaming forums. Just speaking for myself, I'm not here to root for "my" system and I'd hate to see the thread devolve into that sort of thing.
One thing you mentioned that I am interested in though: exclusivity. Are exclusivity contracts really a "stupid, bad thing"? --Enigmatic
You'll please forgive me then; I frequent a board for a Nintendo game I love, but have to constantly put up with fanboys. After a few years, I've developed a knee-jerk.
As for exclusives, I love exclusives. However, I didn't like the way Nintendo did it where, by publishing a game on their system, it was not allowed to be published o a competitor's system for two years; Sony and Microsoft instead paid money to developers to entice them to make games exclusive, which is good for developers and for them.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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On the face of it, it looks as though Nintendo could have won Christmas if they'd been able to manufacture more Wiis.
It's hard to guess which company made more profit -- the Xbox 360 is no longer being sold at a loss, but the Wii has got to have excellent profit margins.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Hitoshi, there's nothing to forgive, but if there were you would be. I think you'll find Hatrack in general a bit more mature than a typical videogame forum. With perhaps a few exceptions, naturally.
Interesting note on the exclusivity, btw, I hadn't known NES/SNES exclusives were handled that differently. Of course, with this generation I think a lot of Wii exclusives are going to be more a matter of practicality than contract - if you design a game specifically for the wiimote/nunchuck control scheme it might not be worth converting that to a more traditional controller. Depends on the game, though. Zelda can easily do without the wiimote, as the gamecube version shows, but something like Rayman Ravin Rabbids just wouldn't be the same.
posted
twinky, only the premium is not at a loss, if the reports are to be believed (and yes, they make up probably 90% of 360 sales, but just wanted to make it clear).
quote:However, I didn't like the way Nintendo did it where, by publishing a game on their system, it was not allowed to be published o a competitor's system for two years; Sony and Microsoft instead paid money to developers to entice them to make games exclusive, which is good for developers and for them.
In both cases, however, it's bad for consumers.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Now what happens if they maange to sell 3 games per consol?
-119,000,000 +162,000,000 ----------------
43,000,000$ profit.
As long as they can sell a decent amount of games and movies, add ons etc etc they'll pull in a decent profit, and as soon as sales reach upwards of the 5 million mark they'll do fine.
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Games are US$60, and you've factored them in as pure profit. Just as an example, Gears of War cost US$10 million to make, and that doesn't account for mass manufacturing and distribution costs. Also, some of the difference between production cost and retail price goes to the retailer.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Between design, programming, and art assets, nearly half of a game's total development cost is already spent (see graph). Console license fees, retail markups and other miscellaneous costs just add to this figure—the exact figures are somewhat abstracted as games are typically sold to retailers at a fixed price below retail, and that is represented on the graph as a percentage of a $60 list price. Getting that investment back requires that game publishers sell large quantities of their games—Namco Bandai president Takeo Takasu said his company needs to sell at least 500,000 copies of each PlayStation 3 game it develops to make a profit. Unfortunately, due to console scarcity and higher prices, next-gen console sales are not yet at a point where those numbers are an inevitability. Microsoft claims that 10 million Xbox 360s will be sold by the end of this year, while Sony's most optimistic estimates put only 2 million PS3s in homes by the same time frame. Many game companies are waiting for the next generation to become a bit more ubiquitous before starting development on these platforms
If you look at the graph in the article Console makers get about 11.5% of the $60 price tag for games. Or about $7. That's why the extremely low attach rate is so alarming, they are losing about $200 per console and only gaining back $7 in licence fees.
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: calaban, my point is that it seems odd to say "That video made me not want to buy a wii" when it's not nintendo putting out the video.
My statement merely reflects my initial response to the video. Every time I see that video, (which was far, far too often because of fanbois in the office), it triggers in me an admittedly irrational response to start playing devils advocate and trash the Wii.
I agree that that G4 has nothing to do with how Nintendo advertises. Through no fault of the wii that video just flicks a switch in me, and the response is the opposite of the video creators initial purpose.
I was weaned on old school 8bit nintendo and I am quite happy that they have come up with something more competative than the DS(erm.. game cube). If the next Metroid and Fzero are worth something I might consider getting one.
One thing I like about nintendo is that I can still play both my 8bit and Super. That alone is amazing when considering my more expensive and newer xbox and ps2 both have optical drive issues.
In regards to the PS3. I have always been a die hard Gran Tourismo fan. Although I never played the first iteration, I had 80% on 2 90% on 3 and am at around 70% on 4. I have a passion for cars, racing and any games that are focused on the same. Unfortuantely I cannot in any way justify spending that level of money just to play one title. PS3 is actually pretty forward looking IMO. It really seems like a console that could be a step in the evolution towards direct computer competition with the pc market. It's just too 'spensive. So no GTHD for me.
I'll take a pc please. One where I can do my own repairs and upgrades.
posted
More competitive than the DS? The same DS that sold close to a million units in November 2006 alone? From my link on page one (Dec. 8, 2006):
quote:The little DS juggernaut sold 918,000 units in November, bringing life-to-date US sales to 7.6 million units. The PS2 followed as the second-best selling piece of hardware for the month with 664,000 units sold and 35.8 million life-to-date. Third place was held by the never-say-die GameBoy Advance with 641,000 units in November and 34.3 life-to-date.
Xbox 360 was next, with 511,000 units sold, bringing life-to-date US sales to 3.4 million units. The PSP followed with 412,000 sold during the month with 5.7 million sold life-to-date in the US.
quote:Originally posted by calaban: So no GTHD for me.
Actually, GTHD got canned, and the team's moved on to GT5. They did released some of what they finished though as a demo, and it's not bad from what I've heard. It's got maybe 10 cars and a few tracks.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:However, I didn't like the way Nintendo did it where, by publishing a game on their system, it was not allowed to be published o a competitor's system for two years; Sony and Microsoft instead paid money to developers to entice them to make games exclusive, which is good for developers and for them.
In both cases, however, it's bad for consumers.
How do you figure? While, yes, it means the consumers have to pay more by buying multiple consoles, it also means all three companies work that much harder to compete, and competition (usually) means lower prices and better quality as companies vie for our dollars with the best things they can offer.
Besides, having several consoles means each one can do a few things really well rather than all of them poorly.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:While, yes, it means the consumers have to pay more by buying multiple consoles, it also means all three companies work that much harder to compete...
I couldn't possibly care less about competition between CONSOLES. I care about competition between GAME DEVELOPERS, which is infinitely more important. The canvas isn't exciting to me.
quote:Besides, having several consoles means each one can do a few things really well rather than all of them poorly.
So, as a consumer, you have to either spend $3000 or decide which one of those three things you really care about. Even though the game developer would, except in a very few cases, be perfectly happy porting its game to the system you already own.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Now what happens if they manage to sell 3 games per console?
They'd be 26 games per console away from making a profit. (Maybe you should stick with communism instead of trying to figure out capitalism ) As twinky and Wowbagger have already pointed out, the sticker price on a PS3 game is not pure profit.
The estimates I've seen are that Sony loses about $200 on each 60gig PS3 and about $300 on each 20gig PS3. (Sony hasn't released actual numbers, afaik. These were estimates from an electronics firm based on the cost of components.) If Sony gets $7 in license fees per copy sold, that's 29 games per 60gig and 43 games per 20gig, just to start turning a profit. That's a whole lot of games for someone to buy for one console. Sony definitely has to be in this one for the long run*, and is gambling pretty hard that the inclusion of blu-ray in the PS3 helps make blu-ray the Next Big Thing.
*The long run in this case being long enough that they can get their manufacturing costs way down and that the library of popular PS3 games to the point where someone might realistically own 20+ games. Sony is a big enough company that one bad launch is unlikely to sink them, but just looking at it realistically their situation right now is nowhere near the rosy picture Blayne was painting.
--Enigmatic
EDIT: I was looking for a link for the estimates I quoted above, because on second glance they didn't look right. This link puts the loss per unit at $241.35 for each 60gig and $306.85 for each 20gig. So I was about $40 short on the 60gig calculations above.
quote:While, yes, it means the consumers have to pay more by buying multiple consoles, it also means all three companies work that much harder to compete...
I couldn't possibly care less about competition between CONSOLES.
It is important. Without Sega and Sony constantly fighting Nintendo for marketshare, there's no indication when games would've moved into 3D, invented analog control, and then further added motion sensing control. So yes, console competition is important. Without anyone to compete with, why spend millions on R&D when reiterating the product a small step is all that's needed?
quote:So, as a consumer, you have to either spend $3000 or decide which one of those three things you really care about. Even though the game developer would, except in a very few cases, be perfectly happy porting its game to the system you already own.
$3000? Hardly; $1250, and that's for the premium versions of two of them. And they'll be getting price cuts in a year or two at that.
Besides, I think having a game developed exclusively strengthens it. It means the developers truly optimize the game and use the hardware available to the best of their advantage, whether it's using all seven Cell cores, integrating multiplayer for Xbox Live, or coming up with really unique control interfaces for the Wii.
Should all games be exclusive? Of course not, and I'm not saying that. But I think some should be, yes. I can't say how many times porting a game has butchered it to pieces.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: If Sony gets $7 in license fees per copy sold, that's 29 games per 60gig and 43 games per 20gig, just to start turning a profit. That's a whole lot of games for someone to buy for one console.
Don't forget, though, that Sony also has its own in-house development studios, and it probably makes better margins on those games. Also, there are the retro games they'll be selling on the Playstation Network Platform.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
True, but I don't know what to use for the margin on that so I was just going with Wowbagger's $7 number. Sony also has to front the development costs for those titles though, and bear the weight of any that don't sell enough copies, whereas if a third party developer doesn't sell the 500,000 or so to make a profit, Sony is still getting the license fees.
I also didn't include things like extra controllers, because I have no idea if those are sold at a loss or profit right now, though I'd assume there's some profit on them.
Something else I noticed on the link about the loss estimate though, is that the $240/$300 numbers are just components and manufacturing - they don't include shipping the final product or even the packaging that it comes in. Even worse, the "loss" is comparing cost to build against the retail price - surely the store gets a cut so that should put the estimate higher. But maybe Sony is getting a better deal on their parts than what iSuppli estimated, so maybe the actual loss per unit is lower.
There's a lot of factors that can push those numbers in either direction, so I'm just using the best numbers I can find reference to. Even with the most optimistic and generous estimates though, Sony is going to need to sell a lot more than 3 games per console to turn a profit on this. I really think they're more concerned with getting enough market share to leverage blu-ray then they are on getting a profit from the PS3 itself.
quote:Without Sega and Sony constantly fighting Nintendo for marketshare, there's no indication when games would've moved into 3D, invented analog control, and then further added motion sensing control.
You realize the PC did all these things first? Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: Nintendo's done some stupid, bad things too.
It helped lead to the once-giant getting hosed. They adapted well to their new third-rate status, maintaining profitibility on nearly all ventures, expanding the handheld market, and cruising off of niche marketability and proprietary creativity.
Here's the big question, though: If Sony experiences the same kind of crash through the next two console generations, will they be able to re-integrate themselves? They aren't as spry as the Nintendo structure, and their gaming system has to prop up a money-bleeding megacorp that likes to gamble on proprietary injection and bully experimentation ("we know you're going to love our console, so we're going to fill it exactly with what we want you to want in it").
First I want to see where their market share ends up. I think we'll have a good idea past the release of the flagship titles.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Without Sega and Sony constantly fighting Nintendo for marketshare, there's no indication when games would've moved into 3D, invented analog control, and then further added motion sensing control.
You realize the PC did all these things first?
True, yeah, but the push for 3D in consoles came from Sony. Most developers who were shown tech demos of the Playstation and encouraged to develop games for it before it was released didn't understand why they should move from 2D to 3D when 2D was working just fine.
There's a book covering Ken Kutaragi, but I can't remember the title at the moment; it mentioned all of this and I wish I could remember it so I could recommend it. It really told the birth of the Playstation very well.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Kotaku has a followup to the previous article, now graphing the ebay sale averages of both the PS3 and the Wii from preorder to christmas eve. Keep in mind this is still just ebay resale price and not necessarily an indication of normal retail sales figures.
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: They aren't as spry as the Nintendo structure, and their gaming system has to prop up a money-bleeding megacorp that likes to gamble on proprietary injection and bully experimentation ("we know you're going to love our console, so we're going to fill it exactly with what we want you to want in it").
First I want to see where their market share ends up. I think we'll have a good idea past the release of the flagship titles.
Sounds a lot like how some sections of the music business are being run lately.
It does strike me as a little sad that it's the supposedly third-place market where we're seeing innovations, but I hear a lot of that in the games industry; the investment cost on many games (let alone systems) is just so high that very few people dare make anything other than sequels to popular series and titles derivative of other high-sellers.
Sony has a processor that could launch a rocket into space, and no one with the imagination to try.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
grr there was a returned PS3 at future shop but I still cant afford it waaaaa!
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On the upside, Blayne, I think when you can afford to buy one you won't have much trouble finding one. I was at two Target stores over the weekend and saw at least* six PS3s sitting on the shelves.
*One store had them stacked in such a way that I could only see 4 but it looked like there were probably more behind them.
posted
I thought this was important, "But we can only wonder what would have happened if Nintendo had been able to flood the retail channel with enough systems to meet demand."
They really did not assemble enough units to meet demand.
and the other important point, "A lack of compelling games along with negative early reviews also may have caused Sony to falter out of the gate."
So true, if they could have just pulled an amazing title out there for launch they would have had a repeat of PSX rather then PS2 which also suffered from a shoddy launch library.
Nintendo pulled the rug out on everyone in the console dept, but its going to be a short lived surprise if they can't relentlessly release games for the Wii that make it worth having. People will be pretty resentful if they get nothing but sequels to their tried and true titles for almost entire console life.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I would have no problem buying a Wii if all I ever get in support of it is:
A couple Zelda titles Metroid Some sort of Mario Kart-ish game Wario Ware Mario Party Castlevania (fingers crossed)
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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