posted
I agree, if the Empire gets Thrawn, no questions the game goes to the Empire. Thrawn and Garak in a battle of wits would be entertaining (and hilarious! ), but once the two got the measure of each other, I'm afraid it's Thrawn all the way once more. Thrawn has an ability to learn, adapt, remember, and think very likely in excess of Julian Bashir, after all.
Thrawn vs. Sisko? No contest whatsoever, although Sisko would put up a better fight than nearly anyone in the Federation. Even Sisko's wild card of the Prophets wouldn't help, unless the Empire needed to travel through the wormhole.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Between Thrawn and the Sith, the Empire pretty much has it sewn up. Even the time travel advantage would evaporate after one use... any Sith Lord would have no trouble ripping the knowledge of time travel out of a hapless Starfleet captain's mind from a distance. Once the Imperials have the ability to time travel, all hope for the Federation is lost. If taken to its logical conclusion, time travel essentially means you have access to the combined military might of every single thing ever built in your respective 'verse. And the SWU has a *lot* more technologically-advanced history, spanning a *lot* more territory. The initial numerical advantage the Empire has will be nothing compared to what happens when they can start siphoning ships and Sith troops from Darth Revan's fleet. Who needs replicators when you have a Star Forge capable of replicating entire starships on command?
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Star Wars is not only a galaxy far, far away. Its is also long ago. This establishes relativistic inertial reference frames for both galaxies. Causality and the laws of physics would not survive even a two-way communications link across time, let alone a portal permitting trans-time matter transmission.
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posted
Seems the empire for me is more then a formidable opponent.
You all seem to forget that the events of Star Wars take place a long time ago in a galaxy far away. With the books as a guide their rate of technological advancement is quite great. The Federation is a product of our future. If the federation is encountering The Empire then its one maybe two star ships traveling to the past to face them as transporting the entire federation is out of the question. Or else its The Federation encountering The Empire centuries, perhaps even millennia later in which case who knows what sorts of amazing technological feats The Empire has performed. Not to mention developments in the Force related arts.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Tarrsk: You don't really understand the nature of time travel. In the STU, Starfleet has a *known* future spanning the 29th century with timeships including Lyr's USS Relativity or the USS Premonition and the 31st century with Daniel's and his associates in the temporal cold war. In the STU, the Empire pretty much ends with the Emperor and Vader, with a resurgence under Thrawn.
What this means, is that once the Empire crosses over the threshold with Vader or the Emperor, they have to deal with the combined might of the Federation up to at least the 31st century and beyond. However, the Empire has no help from the future.
Even if either could rip the knowledge of time travel across a distance (which neither have demonstrated, otherwise they would have known about the Rebel plan in SW:ROTJ to destroy the Death Star with the help of Ewoks and flying into the Death Star) any random Starfleet captain would not understand the details of time travel.
It would take the knowledge of a Janeway or Archer to even give away the existence of the future Starfleet, and neither would have solutions for dealing with them.
The further problem is that ripping knowledge is no substitute for understanding time travel. Starfleet would have knowledge and understanding in spades. Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway all have had experience in altering history through time travel. Their future counterparts are even more experienced, having fought a temporal cold war over the course of an entire series.
Th level of sophistication simply does not compare.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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BlackBlade: Not so much. The Empire ends with Vader, the Emperor, and Thrawn. What remains is just a pitiful remnant. Millennia of development cannot help a dead Empire, it could help the New Republic, but they're not the ones we're concerned with.
From Knights of the Old Republic, we know that STU technology has essentially stagnated for more than 4000 years up to the development of the Empire, the only real development being the Death Star. In the case of Starfleet, they have developed from "us" to Janeway's time in only 300 or so years. Thats about only 8% of the time to get to a place much more advanced and who can dream what technological wonders a 31st century Starfleet would understand?
The only faster development in a mainstream TV series that comes to mind is Stargate SG-1 where we develop from "us" to time travel (although not remotely as sophisticated) and ascension in only ten years.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I almost had to hand in my nerd card after reading this thread BUT I HAVE AN OUT
quote:Romulan Warbird, while maintaining the transphase-cloak returned to them by the federation, detects entire empire fleet using tachyon whatevers.
It idly floats around (and even sometimes within) each major ship in the fleet and every death star or whatever, casually teleporting timed plasma torpedoes to points within the hulls of each enemy ship.
Within minutes, they just have to sit back and watch everything explode.
posted
remember the Empire has sophisticated jamming technologies and would so heavly flood the area with ECM that you wouldnt be able to teleport squat.
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The empire only has 'sophisticated' jamming technologies from an internal canon perspective. The technology from Star Trek has always always ALWAYS taken absurdly more liberties with reality in all but a select few categories.
The empire does not have anti-teleportation technology. They have never faced it before, and they're squaring off against races that have designed fantasy devices that have the power to overcome all but the most temperamental environmental interference, etc etc.
This discussion has actually been had before. A single shuttlecraft with multiphasic cloak can take out the death star and/or stars
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Even if the Empire has planetary destruction capability, mind-reading, and the Force...anybody whose security can be breached by teddy bear people, is no threat at all.
Posts: 544 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Even if the Empire has planetary destruction capability, mind-reading, and the Force...anybody whose security can be breached by teddy bear people, is no threat at all.
posted
Didn't the empire get it's butt handed to it by a single Jedi in training and a ragtag bunch of rebels without a stationary base or real funding?
Thrawn wasn't as tough as he though he was either, if I remember correctly.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I'm sure I'm going to lose some geek cred over this, but...who's Thrawn? I don't remember any Thrawn in Star Wars.
I'm biased, but my money would be on the Federation. Apart from the speed of the Empire's ships, their technology seems to be more advanced, in general. I highly doubt that even a larger group (say, 100) of force-users would really help the empire that much. The massacre of the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith clearly demonstrates that one force-user is no match for a bunch of stormtroopers with guns. And keep in mind that the underlings in the Star Trek universe are much more effective than those in Star Wars. Sure, you could force-choke the captain of a starship (can you do that at a distance, without actually being able to see the person in question?). But then the first officer would just take over and kick your butt. You'd have to force-choke your way down the chain of command, by which point some lowly expendable ensign would have figured out how to kill you.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Thrawn is the admiral leading the Imperial Fleet during the Heir to the Empire trilogy of books, that take place about a half dozen years or so after RotJ.
Actually, he was pretty darn good. The only real reason he lost was because, of course, even a tactical genius, if they have no idea of something, can't act on it. And he was killed early in the final battle of that series, so though he would have won that fight, he wasn't around, and his subordinate Captain whatever his name was wasn't good enough to win.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: And keep in mind that the underlings in the Star Trek universe are much more effective than those in Star Wars. Sure, you could force-choke the captain of a starship (can you do that at a distance, without actually being able to see the person in question?). But then the first officer would just take over and kick your butt. You'd have to force-choke your way down the chain of command, by which point some lowly expendable ensign would have figured out how to kill you.
And his (or her) last name would probably be (pick one (or more, in which case, please refer to this thread) of the following): Kirk, Picard, Riker, Crusher, Janeway, or maybe Sulu.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I still think the federation would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. 150 ships against 25000? Doesn't matter how much better your tech is, you can't fire fast enough to win that fight!
But here's another thought, who'd win, the New Republic (after Luke's jedi come in to their own) or the Federation? Even though, in reality, they'd be much more likely to join forces.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Going by what they could do, not what they would find morally acceptable, the Jedi could totally infiltrate the Federation before opening hostilities, and it would be over. They could have a ship with all technology and records needed to start production on their own, plus billions of planets of resources for building them. They could start a Klingon-Federation-Romulan-Cardassian four-way war within a year. They could fire up the Spaarti Cylinders and have an army of clones ready to go after training on the ship for a few years. The possibilities of a large number of Jedi lacking moral strictures are too numerous to contemplate.
And Jedi + transporter = major can of whup-a%$.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
The only thing I'm aware of a lightsaber not deflecting was the ionized beam in the Srii-Ruk paddle-beamers that paralyzed humans for entenchment.
I'd bet they would - they are particle weapons, not light weapons, and they are deflected by shields.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I don't know if handing me a lightsaber is a good idea. Knowing my clumsiness, I'd either destroy myself with it or start some kind of war (accidently of course). Dag's explanation makes sense though for my question.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Going by what they could do, not what they would find morally acceptable, the Jedi could totally infiltrate the Federation before opening hostilities, and it would be over. They could have a ship with all technology and records needed to start production on their own, plus billions of planets of resources for building them. They could start a Klingon-Federation-Romulan-Cardassian four-way war within a year. They could fire up the Spaarti Cylinders and have an army of clones ready to go after training on the ship for a few years. The possibilities of a large number of Jedi lacking moral strictures are too numerous to contemplate.\
I like your angle and it appears to involve jedi mind manipulation to a great extent. I'm assuming, anyway.
Thing is, Trek had the mental powers thing pretty covered, too. A whole planet of people who can mind-read with perfect clarity, among other things!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Star Destoryers have their armour described as being composed very much of solid neutonium, if I remember correctly the Federation has great trouble with anything made by the stuff.
Next, the Federation HAS FOR A FACT delt with peoples who have NEVER EVER ONCE developed or even SEEN transporter technology and yet could jam it fairly easily. Do you realize JUST HOW MANY times transports have been rendered unusable in STU from just some wierd energy phenomenon alone?
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You could argue that it's survival of the fittest. Given the number of weird energy phenomena that the STU has had to deal with on a regular basis, merely coping with some conscripted Imperial troops is a walk in the park. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Thing is, Trek had the mental powers thing pretty covered, too. A whole planet of people who can mind-read with perfect clarity, among other things!
As soon as they find out about this, a visit from the Sun Crusher II will take care of most of them. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'll see your Jedi infiltrators and raise you:
-Betazoids (Though given the fact that infiltrations of Starfleet have worked before, clearly they don't have Betazoids hanging around listening in on the top brass's thoughts. An oversight, or does the Federation have privacy laws regarding telepathy?) -Periodic blood tests for midichlorians (much like the changling-detection tests) -Heck, setting transporter biofilters for midichlorians...oops, there go your superpowers. -Vulcans (I'd like to see a Jedi try a mind trick on one of them) -No guarantees that force powers even work in the Star Trek universe.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: I still think the federation would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. 150 ships against 25000? Doesn't matter how much better your tech is, you can't fire fast enough to win that fight!
Those numbers are wildly, WILDLY skewed. Federation fleets, per the Dominion Wars, had like a thousand ships in them. And there were at least nine fleets. And the Empire built 25,000 Star Destroyers TOTAL, that isn't just their assault force. Considering even that wasn't enough to beat a ragtag, I don't know how you can believe that they'd be able to take their ENTIRE fleet with them and still have an Empire to come back to. They'd have to leave a large number of them back for peacekeeping, and even if they managed to bring 10,000 of them, which I think is still an outlandish number for the size and volatility of the SWU, they're still about even with the Federation, and that doesn't include help from other species.
Blayne -
What episode was it where the species with no knowledge of transporters jammed our transporters? And you really think that would last forever? Star Trek gets the bump in engineering way over and above the Empire. Give it a day or two and they'll have that jamming problem figured out faster than you can say "change the polarization of the tachyon emitter!"
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I do think that the Empire would be at a disadvantage as an attacking force. On the other hand, I'm not sure the Federation would fare all that well if it tried to conquer the Empire. Particularly since conquest by force isn't really the Federation's thing.
The Borg, on the other hand...
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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1) Training (Star Fleet Training supposedly allows only the best to make it to even the Red Shirt level.) 2) Transporters instead of At-Ats. The ultimate in troop mobility. 3) Lighter, less bulky clothing makes movement easier and improves visibility.
I still think this goes to Federation.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Give the Stormies some credit, the first time we ever saw them they were mowing down Rebels like it was going out of style on Tantive IV.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I'm afraid I'd stack up Darth Vader against, like, 100 Betazoids six days a week and twice on Sundays. The one and only time I remember the only Betazoid we ever really get a good look at, Troi, getting cowboyed up in TNG was...umm....was...
And then there was in Nemesis when she had to be mind-raped to use her powers in an aggressive fashion. Darth Vader, or especially Palpatine, would go through them like Germans through Poland.
As for Vulcans, well they'd probably be more difficult to manipulate...but they do have emotions that, once tapped and 'engaged' are extremely passionate.
Midichlorians? Never heard of `em!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I love Hatrack. This thread, theorizing on the nature of gender, Icy Hot and cats, and abortion on the front page at the same time.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
also remeber Star Trek shi[s are TIN CANS they have no real hull armour, heck ramming is even an effective tactic usign small jem hadar ships vs fully shielded undamaged Klingon ships ramming is not a viable tactic in the SWU, several SD rammed the Executor and it did nothing to it.
Also your all going the pansy STU fanfic route where small heavily armed commando team is somehow to miracusuly win the day every single time.
GO by cannon, go by the tech manuals, and go by solid miltiary tactics and stragy and not the Q will snap his fingers arguement.
next Ill requote
quote: The official SW2ICS quantifies the Acclamator's heavy turbolasers at 200 gigatons max per shot, and light turbolasers at 6 megatons per shot (also note that since turbolasers do not arc down in gravity and are therefore massless, the Millenium Falcon angular acceleration incident indicates light turbolaser yield of at least 3.5 megatons, and that BDZ's require high gigaton-range yield for heavy turbolasers). In comparison, the Enterprise-D would need most of its 275 photon torpedoes to destroy a hollow asteroid of 5-10km diameter; an act requiring roughly 30-180 megatons even if we disregard the fact that it's hollow (between 90 and 650 kilotons per torpedo; see the Season 7 "Pegasus" Canon Database entry for more details). However, other incidents (eg. ST6 and "Night Terrors") indicate much lower yields, and they never demonstrated this capability, so its validity rests on Riker's infallibility. In any case, 1 shot from one of an Acclamator's light guns is many times more powerful than a photon torpedo, and 1 shot from a heavy gun is equivalent to hundreds of thousands of photon torpedoes.
Also according to the STU tech manuals nearly any radiation and subspace interfearance will jam a transporter, jamming it is reaosnably easy thing to do and happens often, in DS9 transporters were nearly impossible to use in most combat enviroments due to jamming. The episode is on that site somewhere Im looking for it.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
quote: Fortunately, transporters are easy to disrupt. Deflector shields, ambient radiation, and even weak magnetic fields (as seen on the prison asteroid in ST6) can easily prevent transportation. The Federation will therefore be unable to board our starships in combat, unless they somehow manage to cause a shield failure, perhaps by combining phasers and torpedoes from numerous starships. Even if that occurs, sensor-jamming equipment can render transport virtually impossible by keeping the transporter operators from being able to find safe destinations for their troops.
Tactics
The Federation will not be able to capture any of our starships unless they are in a virtual derelict condition. Their tactics are unremarkable (as seen in "Way of the Warrior" when they simply positioned themselves in random locations and used line-of-sight weapons to attack boarders), and they simply don't carry enough troopers to successfully board an Imperial vessel. A typical Federation starship carries less than 100 troopers but an Imperial Star Destroyer carries thousands of stormtroopers.
Conclusion
In the unlikely event of momentary shield failure, our stormtrooper divisions should be made aware that Federation troops may appear on the ship at random locations. Tactics must be adjusted to deal with this possibility, so we cannot assume the boarders will enter through hatchways or hull breaches. Stormtroopers should take up defensive positions around critical portions of the ship, and use nerve-gas grenades upon first sight of any Federation boarders. The Federation troopers should fall easily to nerve-gas grenades thanks to their lack of environmental protection suits, and stormtrooper armour protects its wearers from nerve gas.
posted
Depends on what part of the story line you're talking about. Voyager with advanced ablative hull armor from the future was certainly not just a simple tin can. The Defiant class ships have at least a foot of ablative hull armor on them, in addition to heavily reinforced shields. And those aren't even the newest ships in the fleet.
I don't know when you last watched Star Wars, but ZERO Star Destroyers rammed the Executor. It was hit in the bridge by an A-Wing and subsequently lost control, crashing into the Death Star. I've yet to read the book that says that happened. And I've read SW canon, if you consider the EU to be so, that says SD sized ships ramming planetary defense shields has caused them to fail. Ramming still seems fairly useful.
Since when do Stormies carry nerve gas grenades? And what fanfic gibberish are you talking about?
Edit to add: Upon further reading of the page you linked, it seems to ENTIRELY ignore the EU.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Jorus C'Baoth, now on the dark side and inflamed with anger over the deaths of his Jedi companions, tried to force choke Thrawn.
You can infact force choke from a distance, in this case the distance between 2 star ships.
Actually unless there is someother place where it is mentionned it does use the EU as well seeing as how it also makes significant references to the "New Republic" and Vong worldships. There are other pages in that site.
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quote:also remeber Star Trek shi[s are TIN CANS they have no real hull armour, heck ramming is even an effective tactic usign small jem hadar ships vs fully shielded undamaged Klingon ships ramming is not a viable tactic in the SWU, several SD rammed the Executor and it did nothing to it.
Also your all going the pansy STU fanfic route where small heavily armed commando team is somehow to miracusuly win the day every single time.
GO by cannon, go by the tech manuals, and go by solid miltiary tactics and stragy and not the Q will snap his fingers arguement.
next Ill requote
Slow dowwwwnnnn.
edit your posts. you're going into an incomprehensible nerd frenzy.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
heres also the part fo the site of real combat, fanfic combat, and what the DS9 writers combat.
quote:Jorus C'Baoth, now on the dark side and inflamed with anger over the deaths of his Jedi companions, tried to force choke Thrawn.
You can infact force choke from a distance, in this case the distance between 2 star ships.
Actually unless there is someother place where it is mentionned it does use the EU as well seeing as how it also makes significant references to the "New Republic" and Vong worldships. There are other pages in that site.
Apologies then, they don't ignore the EU, they just don't know what they are talking about.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
How so, you say that they do not know what they are talking about but I do not see anything to the contrary.
posted
Okay in nearly every ship combat scenario between a STU ship and another ship the MOMENT shields are down the ship's destruction is emminent, in SWU when shields are down the hull can still take significant punishment. Also neutonium, phasors are practically useless against the stuff and a solid composite of the stuff would require you use a hell of alot of torps on it, if ISDs can take and deal damage from heavy turbolasers from equivilent ships evenw ith shields down how long would a Fed ship last?
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They say that Proton torpedoes are relatively underpowered, yet time and time again it is a proton torpedo barrage that destroys the enemy vessel. We know that Capital Ships have large batteries of proton torpedo launchers and that they are used on ship to ship combat.
We know they do enter combat in formations, very much so similar to how ships of the line fought back in the day, and that those formations respond to commands from the commander of the fleet.
If the worldships they are talking about include the Corellian System, then they don't know what they are talking about. Corellia's world's used repulsors, basically giant tractor beams, to yank M-Class planets from around the galaxy. Other than that, and some rather large space stations, no one in the Empire ever built a "worldship."
The Republic didn't build Centerpoint. As a matter of fact, until the Killik Wars, they weren't sure who built them at all. Also note that in a war, they can't take that communications network with them.
Technically, the reign of Palpatine as Supreme Chancellor and his abuses of power was never called a New Republic of any sort. The New Republic wasn't formed officially until far after Palpatine's death and the conquest of Coruscant.
Considering Martok is the Chancellor of the Klingon Empire, and the extremely good relations between him and the Federation, I think there's a very, very good chance that they would join us. No Klingon would be left out of battle like that. And oh god I'm not going near the rest of this.
They are talking about a height of the Empire vs. Star Trek post Votager situation. Given the technology Janeway brought back with her, and other advantages, coupled with a REALISTIC attack from the Empire the Federation would suffer substantial casualties but hold their own.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Okay in nearly every ship combat scenario between a STU ship and another ship the MOMENT shields are down the ship's destruction is emminent, in SWU when shields are down the hull can still take significant punishment. Also neutonium, phasors are practically useless against the stuff and a solid composite of the stuff would require you use a hell of alot of torps on it, if ISDs can take and deal damage from heavy turbolasers from equivilent ships evenw ith shields down how long would a Fed ship last?
Untrue. I've seen several, several encounters where Federation and other ships have lasted quite some time with their shields down.
And how long do you really think it would take the Federation to get their hands on a proton torpedo? Our manufacturing capabilities have an advantage theirs don't: Replication. We could make legions of the damned things. They have to build them in factories.
We lost a fleet to the Breen and came back stronger than ever after realizing the mistakes we made. I have little doubt that the weapons inequalities would be swiftly remedied. Besides, a transphasic torpedo can take out a Borg TACTICAL Cube with one shot. A Borg cube DWARFS the Enterprise-E which is about half the length of an ISD. I have no trouble believing a single torp could take out an ISD.
And as for the Executor quote, yes, thank you for repeating what I've already seen, but I've never read that anywhere. Not saying it isn't necessarily true, it's just not in any book I've read recently.
Edit to add: And though it may seem like I crossed that line a long, long time ago, I just realized I'm taking this Waaaaaaay too seriously. ::Bows out::
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Meh. Dark Lords of the Sith kill pretty much everyone. They take stars in a binary system and crush people between them. Seriously.
Also, Nogrhi rock.
Seeing as how both Star Destroyers and the Stars themselves have been moved using the force, having someone force-choke someone (or otherwise slay them outright) from a great distance is not at all implausible, I'm surprised that's even an issue.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Feb 2007
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o_O I can't believe this discussion almost made 3 pages! I'm tempted to bump it a few times just to make it get there... Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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), but once the two got the measure of each other, I'm afraid it's Thrawn all the way once more. Thrawn has an ability to learn, adapt, remember, and think very likely in excess of Julian Bashir, after all.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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