posted
On lightsabers deflecting phasers... Do keep in mind that SWU lasers are effectively projectiles, and slow moving ones at that. It'll be near impossible to deflect a constantly active phaser beam, especially when it's in the hands of one who'd be more than happy to move it around.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most of the StarWars stuff in the "StarWars vs StarTrek" website is made up outta nothin'. The only canon for StarWars is the original book and the two trilogies. And the StarWars movies clearly show that even the positing of "megaton lasers" is pure unadulterated hogwash.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:also remeber Star Trek ships are TIN CANS they have no real hull armour
Nor do they need any. Without shields, transporters can literally rip them apart. It is unnecessary for Federation assault teams to board a SWU vessel; they can simply beam torpedoes onto the ship and/or beam bits of the ship into space.
That's at least one of the reasons that STU is all about shields; armor is worthless when you have literally limitless control over matter.
Your source, in other words, is laughably biased. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I am prtty sure that the writers of STU and Lucas for the SWU not only probly contributed to their respective Encylopedias (like how Bungie compiled the Halo Encylopedia) but probly gave them their blessing as well.
Next the manufacturing capabilities of the SWU are obviously greater on an order of several magnitude, not only does the SWU emply entire WORLDS dedicated for manufacturing production and automated at that. The Trade Federation could strip mine a world of all of its strategic resources in a matter of months and the Empire had over 12,000,000 worlds incorperated into it, the Feds had what? 120? Next theirs also the matter of ships. the TOTAL mostrecent shipcount of Starfleet is 7200, a number that includes fighters, runabouts, and shuttles in its ship counts. Next DS9 throughout the entire Dominion war built 163-180 Galaxy Class starships as it was the lead frontline ship during the entire war, they simply built the hull, gave it crew quarts, a scavenged warp core, shields, weapons and rushed it to combat.
Replicators do not work for capitol ships, the Soveriegn-Class starships take I think somewhere between 3-7 years to build according to the technical manuals. The Feds as such according to the manuals and the series would imply that they do not have the capability to use replication technology for assemling star ships, I take the fact that throughout the entire Dominion War they displayed no ability to do so despite the desparation of the war.
IP: Logged |
posted
Blayne, are you seriously suggesting that the Empire could bring a significant portion of its manufacturing strength to bear against the Federation without losing control of the galaxy?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Empire would have transporter technology in about a month after first encountering it and would know how to jam it soon after.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
A scenario is a Fed ship tried to capture a ISD.
IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
thanks Dag, also they dont even need to focus it, they could send 100 ISDs (over 9000 ships by Federation standards of ship totals since it includes fighters and other small craft) and if they really needed muscle hire several mercionary fleet. If BlackSun a simple shipping company was able to provide all the logistics needed to build the death star in under a year in secret theyre are probly plenty of other shipping companies with significant military capabilities.
Next back to the Feds ground forces, aside from shuttles and runabouts, the Feds do not have AFVs, when Admiral Leyton ordered military mobilization it consisted of putting a single soldier on every street corner, wheres the APCs patrolling the streets? Aside from a small complement of Marines on each starship do not possess a armed forces on the same level of the Empire, heck the Romulans thought that 2000 foot soldiers would be enough to take over Vulcan. I onder why....
IP: Logged |
posted
I'm still amazed at how cavalierly that site dismisses the absolute impossibility of fighting a relativistic ship. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Warp strafing even according to Starfleet accounts in unfeesible against anything but the most primitive of spare faring ships, it onyl worked for the Stargazer because the Ferengi ship lacked proper sensors, how long before the Imperials reverse engineer these sensors (assuming they dont already have any) from a derelect starship? All they need to do is capture ONE runabout one of any ship from ay species in the Alpha quadrant to get that technology.
IP: Logged |
posted
Are we simply assuming that both groups are going to steal each other's technology, here, within the timeframe of the war? Because I am not even remotely confident in the Empire's ability to comprehend Federation technology, given the slow pace of technological progress in the SWU.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I dont know about that, between EP3 and EP4 the Empire made soem pretty nifty advances in starship design, there is advancement and innovation just nothing that we really notice in the books/movies.
IP: Logged |
quote:Are we simply assuming that both groups are going to steal each other's technology, here, within the timeframe of the war? Because I am not even remotely confident in the Empire's ability to comprehend Federation technology, given the slow pace of technological progress in the SWU.
True enough...but even one thoroughly Force-brainwashed Chief Engineer would go a long way to quickly negating that problem. Of course, it would take decades before the Empire could implement the knowledge throughout its military, but much less time for it to implement the knowledge.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Are we simply assuming that both groups are going to steal each other's technology, here, within the timeframe of the war? Because I am not even remotely confident in the Empire's ability to comprehend Federation technology, given the slow pace of technological progress in the SWU.
A few jedi mind tricks on some engineers, scientists, and I think federation folks would be more then happy to do the work of copying it for The Empire. Also I am confident your everyday astromech droid could find some way to plug into federation consoles and translate everything into *beeps* and *whoops* that The Empire would understand.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know, it's also worth noting that the Empire is not exactly full of Force users.
I'll give you the droid tech point, though; droid technology and the hyperdrive are the two techs the STU would want from the SWU. For some reason, even though the STU is clearly able to manufacture sentient droids, each one is a labor of love rather than mass-produced.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Although you know, just one replication system would go a long way to catching the Empire up.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
By that logic, one Star Destroyer would do the same thing for the STU.
Again, though, the problem for the Empire is this: short of overwhelming the Federation with numbers, they simply don't have the ability to compete in space. They have strategic superiority and an extreme level of tactical inferiority.
Now, as has been pointed out, this tactical inferiority is due to the truly ridiculous tech levels of the Federation, rather than any specific tactical skill applied on the Federation's behalf. (Despite it, in fact. Of course, the SWU isn't known for its tactical ability, either.) So the smartest thing the Empire could do is get their hands on some Federation officers, especially engineers. Assuming that the Empire's torturers are better at getting information from STU officers than they are at getting information from rebels, we're looking at about two to three years to technological equivalence -- assuming they start with the holodeck and replicator and work from there. At that point, the Empire wins, no contest.
And then someone from the STU travels back in time to when the Emperor is being born in a ditch somewhere, drops a photon torpedo on his mother, and flies away. Probably feeling slightly guilty.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm still amazed at how cavalierly that site dismisses the absolute impossibility of fighting a relativistic ship. [Smile]
I think you give way to much credit to relativistic fighting. It doesn't take much to track a ship, even one flying at relativistic speeds and lead it. The Empire doesn't have to be able to keep up with a federation ship in warp strafing to blow it out of the sky. It just has to be able to see it coming, lead it to a couple of points and open up enough of a fire barrage to completely blow it out of the sky.
And I'd bet the Empire's sensor equipment is good enough to do that even with out stealing federation technology.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
Need I say more? It doesn't matter who has a technological advantage. The fact of the matter is that the Federation is good and the good guys always win. The writers would carve out a win, come hell or high water.
From an in-universe perspective, why have we ignored the rebellion? I'm sure, once they were given a lesson in Galactic history, the Federation would team up with the rebellion (which would give them some force-users of their own). The Federation would then have access to Galactic technology, which they would be able to adapt into their own.
And another thing, why are we discussing the Empire's weapons as if they were in any way accurate. They couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with any given turbo laser or blaster or anything else.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:And another thing, why are we discussing the Empire's weapons as if they were in any way accurate. They couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with any given turbo laser or blaster or anything else.
posted
Well what? The Federation STU guys have a significantly higher accuracy percentage, which gets back to the good guys vs. bad guys argument. In fact, if the shot will decide the outcome of the battle, the Federation's accuracy rating jumps to 100%. Vader couldn't even hit Luke in the Death Star trench with his (then) advanced Tie Fighter because of the always tear-jerking, timely arrival of Han Solo, and even then it took him several minutes of dialog to lock on with his supposedly powerful and advanced Imperial technology.
The Empire just doesn't cut it where it counts- in the climax.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I see several problems with this discussion. One big problem is that the sources I'm using for Star Wars are the original and newer trilogies. I only make an exception for the Thrawn trilogy and KOTOR because well, they're cool. The inherent problem with introducing more elements from the SW:EU is that the ST:EU is even more crazy. With hundreds of books spanning the time with the original Star Trek went off the air till now, there have been ridiculous numbers of species and technology over the years, much of it inconsistent. Keep in mind that Star Wars has the same problem with the Droids and Ewoks cartoons, plus the Star Wars Holiday special.
In any case, the further problem is that the Star Wars universe does *not have time travel.* Therefore, any conflict involving the Empire only includes two force users, any conflict involving Thrawn does not have "thousands of planets" since Thrawn never dominated the galaxy like the Empire did. Anything further in the timeline would only use the small little Imperial Remnant. However, the Federation *does* have time travel.
In canon, Starfleet has used time travel in two movies to change the future, one whole series was ended by the use of time travel, and another series included the use of a temporal cold war between time travelling agents.
In light of this, the comments on this page about conflict times lasting in months or years, sound absurd. Production capability is irrelevant to an amazing degree. I can start to understand how DS9's Prophets were so confused by the concept of linear time reading posts full of these conventional tactics.
In reality, we know that that Federation lasts at least till the 31st century. Any attack on the 24th century Starfleet would change the time line and be instantly detected. It would be dealt with by the time travellers from the 31st century to preserve the timeline, faster than you can say....well anything. Thats how time travel works. They could send back an agent and kill that little annoying kid Anakin before the conflict even started. Or they could just nudge her mother in just the right way so that she's not even born, perhaps even seducing her with Kirk.
In fact, the way time travel works in ST, not only can they do it, but they already have done it, and will have to do it in order to preserve the timeline.
Thats the trump card, that Dag's Jedi infiltrators (not that the Empire has more than Vader and the Emperor...neither of which can exactly go incognito), Sun Crushers (which are after the Empire), large fleets, Force powers, or anything can handle.
The big thing about time travel is that its not even required to go to the ST:EU to find it, its ingrained into the series and movies to a hideous degree.
From a story-telling perspective, I hated it because it made the Federation nigh-invincible and the Earth indestructible despite how many Earth-threatening events there have been. However, in light of a conflict...please.
These posts are like reading about Napoleonic-era generals bragging how their cannonballs can rip through F-22s. (Hint: they actually can, but why is this not relevant? There's your answer for why Star Trek vehicles don't have much armour) and when considering how powerful the concept of air superiority is, thinking that they can either strap some wings onto galleon or ride a big bird.
Time travel, ignoring it is like ignoring space superiority today, ignoring air superiority in WWII carrier operations, ignoring the concept of trench warfare when charging with calvary, or ignoring the concept of firearms when the Aztecs attacked conquistadors.
Time travel, gentleman. Its a whole new dimension, literally. You can't defend or fight if you just....suddenly don't exist.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
For all we know, Anakin is the product of his mother and Kirk's unholy union. It would explain a lot.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was actually pointing out that the Empire's accuracy in starship combat isn't as bad as you're making out. For example in the IV, the Star Destroyer rather easily attacked and disabled a much smaller, nimbler, and faster ship without destroying it. In V they were able to target and seriously damage from a lengthy range a very much smaller, nimbler, and faster ship, which had to resort to suicidal tactics to escape.
And in VI, well the Empire was doing just fine putting the hurt on the Rebels with their fleet until the Emperor died.
As for starfighters, you're forgetting that the Empire successfully killed just about all of the attacking rebel starfighters, remember? The force that attacked the first Death Star had, like, an 85% casualty rate.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I was actually pointing out that the Empire's accuracy in starship combat isn't as bad as you're making out. For example in the IV, the Star Destroyer rather easily attacked and disabled a much smaller, nimbler, and faster ship without destroying it. In V they were able to target and seriously damage from a lengthy range a very much smaller, nimbler, and faster ship, which had to resort to suicidal tactics to escape.
And in VI, well the Empire was doing just fine putting the hurt on the Rebels with their fleet until the Emperor died.
As for starfighters, you're forgetting that the Empire successfully killed just about all of the attacking rebel starfighters, remember? The force that attacked the first Death Star had, like, an 85% casualty rate.
Well, duh. There are thousands of guns on the surface of the Death Star, all of them firing at a high rate of speed. With that much weaponry going off at once, even with the Empire's absolutely lousy accuracy rate, they're bound to hit something.
I mean, they couldn't even hit a group of fighters flying down a trench no larger than three X-Wings abreast. None of those X-Wings were employing any meaningful evasive maneuvers- probably because they could count on the Empire missing a majority of the time and just play the odds.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:I was actually pointing out that the Empire's accuracy in starship combat isn't as bad as you're making out.
I'm not worried about Imperial accuracy, per se.
I'm worried about how the Empire intends to hit, much less detect, something moving faster than light, and how it intends to defend against projectiles moving even faster.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nobody has mentioned the menace from Krikkit.
Evil White Robots with Cricket Bats. How can anyone stand in the face of such raw evil. I dont think the the Federation, Empire, Rebellion, Ori, Replicators, Gua'ould, and all the missing dolphins combined could stand up to such a menace.
quote:I was actually pointing out that the Empire's accuracy in starship combat isn't as bad as you're making out.
I'm not worried about Imperial accuracy, per se.
I'm worried about how the Empire intends to hit, much less detect, something moving faster than light, and how it intends to defend against projectiles moving even faster.
I think it ties into my argument well. If they can't even hit something that is, essentially, standing still, then how are they going to hit something moving by so fast that it's not even visible to the naked eye.
Just look at the scene at the beginning of ANH, when the escape capsule manned by the droids goes flying by the Star Destroyer. The Turbo Laser pictured is manned by a human crew. It is something akin to the deck guns on Destroyers in WWII.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
dont bring time travel into this, it ruins the whole point of the arguement, think of it as a who would win arguement between Imperial Rome and the Han or Song Dynsaty, jut because they would never meet* or fight doesnt mean its not fun to think about the outcome.
*They did meet actually, a 30,000 expeditionary force visited Roman terrirory near modern day Armenia at one poinr.
IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, but neither the Romans nor the Chinese had/have time travel.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
you miss the point, never has time travel been used to allow the Feds to *win* a war. Example:
In TNG the Enterprise-C was rescued from its suicide run versus Romulan Warbirds when they were raiding a Klingon Colony. This action changed history where instead of the Detente between the Feds and Klingons continueing instead they broke out into Total Warfare where in Picards words "Starfleet estimates that within 6 months we will be forced to surrender" no Daniel came to save them, no Admiral Janeway, no sling around the sun, no kirk, no whales nothing. Had they kept the Enterprise-C in a futile effort to stave off defeat time would have still been changed and no one would have tried to change it.
Time travel by the 31st century has been used only to prevent Voyager and other factions in the TCW from changing history, if the Imperials were to create a wormhole and invade the Alpha quadrant they would have done NOTHING to stop it. Time Travel in this sense is a fruitless excersize in futility.
IP: Logged |
posted
Mucus, I would argue that using SW EU is acceptable, and ST EU is not, simply because of how the respective franchise owners treat their canon. SW EU is "second tier canon," i.e. it is canon unless directly contradicted by the films. To that end, Lucas Books has very stringent rules about maintaining internal continuity in their tie-in products. The ST EU has no such canon status, and as a result, the novels, games, comic books, etc. are all free to contradict each other willy-nilly.
In other words, the Empire can bring Thrawn, the Sun Crusher, Eclipse Super Star Destroyers, the Star Forge, and all that other stuff to bear, while the Federation is stuck with whatever they had access to in the TV series and films. Relatively speaking, this means that the quantity of Crazy Ass Scifi Mumbo Jumbo available to both sides is still ludicrously skewed towards Star Trek, considering that it has, in addition to their 10 movies, a full 29 seasons of TV episodes from which to draw material.
In the interests of full disclosure- I actually way prefer Trek to Wars (although the original trilogy holds a special place in my heart). And I'm still calling this one for the Empire. Because in the end, the Force is still the ultimate deus ex machina.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, you're missing the point. If the Romans or the Chinese had time travel, you'd better believe they'd use it.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well if Star Trek gets to use all its novels and movies/TV series, then we should give SW the benefit of all its novels.
While it is true that SWU does not have time travel, they (Jedis/Sith) certainly have the ability to view the past and the future. They would certainly see WHO would attempt to go into the past and alter events, and believe me if they could be stopped they would find a way to do it. Not to mention Jaican's "flow walk" ability, which allows him to manipulate time.
While folks in the ST universe can travel through time and project what the results of time alterations would be, folks in the SW universe can just as easily make crucial decisions by attuning themselves to the force.
A good solid Jedi simply puts their mind to defeating the federation and Force can direct their actions perfectly. Honestly the only thing I can see stopping somebody with the force is somebody else with the force, which is why the Star Wars galaxy has conflict. Because good and evil people both have access to it.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: No, you're missing the point. If the Romans or the Chinese had time travel, you'd better believe they'd use it.
Actually there would be a VERY interesting dynamic with the Chinese believing that messing with the actions of their ancestors would be extremely unfilial.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sure, but what about other people's ancestors?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
PC do you just realize how much literature there is on the subject of Time Travel of it causing more wounds and tragedies then it fixes? Heck, Andromeda goes through what is considered the OPTIMAL timeline and yet the Commonwealth is still crushed how many times? Its horrible what Cptn Dylan Hunt and his friends go through just to get what an outside observer considered the best possible outcome.
IP: Logged |
posted
You can't use the whole SW:EU. It ignores the timeline.
At that point you're just cherry picking. The argument so far has not been the SWU vs. the STU but rather the Empire vs. the Federation. By the time all the SWU high tech stuff, like Sun Crushers, and more Jedi, and Eclipse Super Star Destroyers all came around, the Empire was already shrinking drastically, and had nowhere NEAR the kind of hardware or resources being talked about in this thread. If we're going to talk about the best that can possibly be taken from SW, then we have to get the best that ST has to offer as well, and that means 31st century Federation vs. the New Republic basically.
And that's an exercise in futility as well, as they would never fight each other.
Nope, the Empire is stuck with what it had, which is already formidable. If they can't beat time travel, then they have to suck it up and NOT invade.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: No, you're missing the point. If the Romans or the Chinese had time travel, you'd better believe they'd use it.
Actually there would be a VERY interesting dynamic with the Chinese believing that messing with the actions of their ancestors would be extremely unfilial.
Do I feel a novel coming on?
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: you miss the point, never has time travel been used to allow the Feds to *win* a war. Example:
In TNG the Enterprise-C was rescued from its suicide run versus Romulan Warbirds when they were raiding a Klingon Colony. This action changed history where instead of the Detente between the Feds and Klingons continueing instead they broke out into Total Warfare where in Picards words "Starfleet estimates that within 6 months we will be forced to surrender" no Daniel came to save them, no Admiral Janeway, no sling around the sun, no kirk, no whales nothing. Had they kept the Enterprise-C in a futile effort to stave off defeat time would have still been changed and no one would have tried to change it.
Time travel by the 31st century has been used only to prevent Voyager and other factions in the TCW from changing history, if the Imperials were to create a wormhole and invade the Alpha quadrant they would have done NOTHING to stop it. Time Travel in this sense is a fruitless excersize in futility.
The first is obviously untrue. The Federation has never used time travel to win an *offensive* war true, but thats mostly because it has never been depicted as being *in* an offensive war. However, Starfleet has used time travel to end wars several times.
Admiral Janeway essentially ended the war with the Borg when she brough Voyager home. The Temporal Cold War was obviously ended that way. Also the saving of the whales was done totally on Kirk's own initiative.
You also miss the point of "Yesterday's Enterprise." The events in that episode are actually necessary for the correct timeline to occur. No "Yesterday's Enterprise" means no Sela, no Sela means no Klingon civil war. No civil war means Gowron doesn't ascend to the throne in the same manner, etc. Daniels could not stop the events of the episode because the events were necessary. Furthermore, he didn't have to because Picard took care of it himself. Daniel's only appeared to Archer because Archer couldn't have dealt with it himself.
The last point is also rather crippled by linear thinking. The problem is that if the Imperials invaded and won, then the timeline *would* be different. However, we already know that there is a 31st century Federation and the Empire never won, so there are only two options. Either they stopped the invasion before it could occur or the invasion failed.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... While folks in the ST universe can travel through time and project what the results of time alterations would be, folks in the SW universe can just as easily make crucial decisions by attuning themselves to the force.
A good solid Jedi simply puts their mind to defeating the federation and Force can direct their actions perfectly. Honestly the only thing I can see stopping somebody with the force is somebody else with the force, which is why the Star Wars galaxy has conflict. Because good and evil people both have access to it.
No go. The Empire *has* no Jedi. It killed them off remember? The Emperor and Vader show no real ability to predict the future in that manner, at least not successfully, since they were defeated by one mostly untrained farmboy. The other problem is no matter how a Jedi uses the Force to predict future events, he cannot change events before his training in the Force. He certainly cannot prevent someone from affecting his parents or ancestors.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Sure, but what about other people's ancestors?
Not so much, the Chinese hold the doings of other cultures as at best interesting bathroom reading, at worst barbaric.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:at least not successfully getting defeated by one mostly untrained farmboy.
Who just happens to be, "the one who will bring balance to the force." Not to mention having the living ghost of his mentor there almost all the time, as well as being trained one of the most talented jedi masters in history.
I have always wondered why the emperor makes a point of saying several times, "Everything is happening as I have foreseen," and yet Skywalkers success was unforeseen.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I have always wondered why the emperor makes a point of saying several times, "Everything is happening as I have foreseen," and yet Skywalkers success was unforeseen.
I'm sure he was just speaking figuratively. It's Palpatine's version of "I love it when a plan comes together!"
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
