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Author Topic: What is your Deathly Hallows theory?
mr_porteiro_head
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And all they've been able to do is slow Voldemort down.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Another thought -- think of how hard it's been, and how much as been sacrificed to slow down Voldemort so far. For his defeat to require less not only wouldn't make sense, it would feel like cheating.

The idea that they have to match and exceed everything that's already happened seems a little creepy, is all.
True, the next book will already be hellish for the trio.
They have to find the remaining Horcruxes and judging by the state of Dumbledore's arm and him later in book Six that will not be easy.

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Belle
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Yeah, if it's something simple, and easy and cheap, then all those deaths will be for nothing. All the readers will say "Well, gee, why didn't they do that in the beginning?"

I do like Harry. I've read every book, I've pre-ordered this one, and I enjoy Rowling's writing. It's just that I think the ending, the destruction of Voldmort has got to be costly precisely because of all the sacrifices so far. Those have to be meaningful, and there has to be a cost.

Frodo paid a high cost for his victory. So did Ender. Harry will too, I think. I believe the story so far calls for it. I don't think "Well look what he's suffered so far" cuts it, either. I think more is required, otherwise the victory is not as great.

Of course, Rowling may write a happy bunny ending. If so, I'll be disappointed but it sounds like many of her other fans won't be. Either way, she'll still be the big winner, because we'll all still have bought the book. I don't think my disappointment will keep her from cashing her check. [Wink]

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Another thought -- think of how hard it's been, and how much as been sacrificed to slow down Voldemort so far. For his defeat to require less not only wouldn't make sense, it would feel like cheating.

It can't require less, by definition. You're looking at the sacrifices that've already been made as things that happened and are over. All of them have led to the eventual end of this story, and if no other losses were to happen at all, those which already have will still exist.

The idea that they have to match and exceed everything that's already happened seems a little creepy, is all.

I'd agree if we were talking about real life. Life is not governed by poetic justice. But do you agree that if in book 7 Harry and Co trounce all over Voldemort, Ron and Hermione hook up, Harry and Ginny get together and start birthing babies, Tonks and Remus get together, and the Dursleys decide that they have been wrong about Harry all along and ask for his forgiveness which he promptly gives, that something would feel amiss?

I don't think anyone wishes Harry any ill will. But as a reader I would feel robbed if Harry has already sacrificed all he will be required to sacrifice in order to vanquish Voldemort. Heck if Voldemort slips on some stairs and breaks his neck and bleeds to death in the first chapter I really doubt Harry would not be upset that Voldemort had been defeated so anticlimactically. I'm sure he'd think, "Something about that just does not seem right."

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
Yeah, if it's something simple, and easy and cheap, then all those deaths will be for nothing. All the readers will say "Well, gee, why didn't they do that in the beginning?"

Things are cumulative. And no one is talking about "simple and easy", but if the only thing that isn't cheap is horrible suffering and grief and anguish, then yes, I'm hoping for that sort of cheap. Because I don't think that's cheap at all.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The idea that they have to match and exceed everything that's already happened seems a little creepy, is all.

I'd agree if we were talking about real life. Life is not governed by poetic justice. But do you agree that if in book 7 Harry and Co trounce all over Voldemort, Ron and Hermione hook up, Harry and Ginny get together and start birthing babies, Tonks and Remus get together, and the Dursleys decide that they have been wrong about Harry all along and ask for his forgiveness which he promptly gives, that something would feel amiss?
I think that's a false dichotomy. It's not either "kill Voldemort while whistling a happy tune" or "barely defeat Voldemort while enduring the worst pain and suffering a person can survive".

It can be a major challenge, with difficult choices and pain involved, but without ripping people apart and spitting on the charred remains.

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Shawshank
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I don't think Harry will lose his powers- but there is some precedent for it actually.

HBP Chapter 12 (pg 262 in my book):

[Dumbledore is talking about Merope, Voldemort's mother]
quote:

"But it is my belief- I am guessing again, but I am sure I am right- that when her husband abandoned her, Merope stopped using magic. I do not think that she wanted to be a witch any longer. Of course, it is also possible that her unequited love and the attendant despair sapped her of her powers; that can happen.

I don't think Harry will lose his powers- but it can be seen that the possibility isn't without previous mention.
I think either Ron and Hermione will die. Maybe Ginny. Of course that's if Harry doesn't die. I have a feeling he will- and then I don't know who'd die.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
It can be a major challenge, with difficult choices and pain involved, but without ripping people apart and spitting on the charred remains.
OK fair enough. Do you have the time to posit one, perhaps two ways in which Harry would be subjected to difficult choices and pain without death being involved? We already discussed the lose of his magical powers.

edit: and remember these challenges cannot simply be repeats of obstacles he overcame in previous books.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
without ripping people apart and spitting on the charred remains.
Yet again, that is not a fair characterization of what other people are saying.
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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
Yeah, if it's something simple, and easy and cheap, then all those deaths will be for nothing. All the readers will say "Well, gee, why didn't they do that in the beginning?"

Things are cumulative. And no one is talking about "simple and easy", but if the only thing that isn't cheap is horrible suffering and grief and anguish, then yes, I'm hoping for that sort of cheap. Because I don't think that's cheap at all.
Yes, they are a bit. Harry has already endured much -- the loss of his mother, father, a father-figure, and a mentor. None of this has been easy for him. I'm not sure that what happens in the last book has to outdo all of that, but it definitely has to take into account that many older, wise, and more powerful wizards have already died in this fight and that Harry can't just be the one to happen to get off a killing curse.

In a way, you can't outdo all that cumulative damage in one fell swoop. Even Harry's death wouldn't outdo all the rest because he's just one person, however much we have come to love him.

I don't know that there needs to be a disagreement here...Harry has endured much, sacrificed much, and yet in the last book there will be more and he will lose more.

Three and a half weeks! I'm starting a countdown. BTW, I'm doing a self-imposed media blackout until I finish the book so no one can filter any spoilers through. Since my husband will be reading this aloud to me, this means no TV, radio, or internet for maybe half a week. (That's how long the last one took.)

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
I'm not sure that what happens in the last book has to outdo all of that
Yeah, I think you're right.
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breyerchic04
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I think I like the theory that the wizarding world will become well known and no longer a secret better than Harry will no longer be able to do magic. It just sits better with me.


Christine, I'm also doing a media blackout until I finish the book, though hopefully I can have it done by the end of Sunday.

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solo
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quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
Since my husband will be reading this aloud to me, this means no TV, radio, or internet for maybe half a week. (That's how long the last one took.)

My wife and I read it out loud as well. We got Half-Blood Prince on the Saturday morning and were finished it by Tuesday night (and I worked all day on the Monday and Tuesday). I think Order of the Phoenix took us about 5 days.
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Javert
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Something just occurred to me. I'm rereading the series, on OotP, and it just popped into my head. Hagrid is sent to get the giants. They discuss trying to get the goblins on their side.

What about the house elves?

Think about it. One elf, Dobby, was strong enough to throw Lucius Malfoy across a room and cause him to retreat. Somehow their magic is strong enough (or different enough from wizard magic) that they have the ability to apparate inside Hogwarts.

What would an army of house elves...say, from the Hogwarts' kitchen and loyal to the school...do if convinced to unleash their powers against the Deatheaters?

Just a thought.

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Puffy Treat
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The problem seems to be one of House Elf mind-set. Even Dobby tends to lapse into his old submissive self-punishing mode from time to time.
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Javert
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True. But what would happen if they were confronted with an all out attack on the school? The elves, I imagine, are ultimately loyal to the school, the headmaster/mistress and the students. If they witnessed them being attacked, I think the elves would defend them.

So, maybe not an house-elf army. But definitely great potential for defense.

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Shawshank
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Remember Dobby's speech when he first met Harry in CoS? About how the house elves were treated terribly during Voldemort's reign- and Harry stopped that. So apparently what they normally endure is nothing compared to what they go through when You-Know-Who is in charge. That might also give them motive to fight back?

I'd still think a Death Eater attempt on Privet Drive on Harry's 17th birthday would be quite interesting.

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Puffy Treat
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Especially if a Muggle Born Death Eater decides to just shoot Harry, instead of cast a spell. [Eek!]
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Phanto
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Shooting Harry?

Seems too...simple.

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Lyrhawn
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I'll be satisfied with a happy ending. I think Harry has paid his due.

Thing about Frodo is (whoever brought him up before), he largely got his happy ending. His quest was fulfilled, he was celebrated as one of the greatest heroes of any age of Middle Earth, and all he really lost was a finger. The Shire was rebuilt, and then he got to go to Valinor and be with the Elves, who he really longed to be with all along. Frodo got his happy ending, but at a high cost of personal self sacrifice. I'd be okay with this story ending much as LOTR did. Great destruction, the death of major characters that we loved (Theoden, Gandalf (who later came back), but still keep the core group (the Hobbits/The trio in HP) alive, but older and wiser, to enjoy the fruits of their labors.

I think there will be a lot of heart wrenching deaths in this last book, but I still hope that the three kids survive, and Ginny too. I want to see them live to enjoy the fruits of their labors as well. They've already endured so much pain and sacrifice as it is, how much more does anyone think is really necessary before it's enough?

If it all ends happily ever after, I'll be quite content. And if Harry or one of the trio are killed off, I'll be frankly maybe a little disappointed that after all that effort they still failed to pull it off in the end.

I don't mind tradgedies, as I consider the ending of Ender's Game to be, a bittersweet victory. But at the same time, I love heroic victories, even at a cost of personal sacrifice, such as LOTR.

I think Harry will still lose people close to him. At least one of the Weasley's will die I think, and I could see Hagrid dying in an attempt to deflect a spell away from Harry, maybe thinking his Giantness will save him, or maybe knowing full well the consequences of his actions. I think losing someome like Hagrid would almost be as bad as losing Sirius or Dumbledore.

I think there's only three or four real candidates for a character who has never done magic: Filch, Petunia, Dudley or the chick who lives across the street from the Dursleys, the Squib who used to babysit Harry. Can anyone even think of any other non-magic user characters that have been mentioned more than once?

Seeing some good theories on this thread though, it'll be interesting to see if any come true.

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I think there's only three or four real candidates for a character who has never done magic: Filch, Petunia, Dudley or the chick who lives across the street from the Dursleys, the Squib who used to babysit Harry. Can anyone even think of any other non-magic user characters that have been mentioned more than once?

Don't make me go back to JK Rowling's rumor page and REpost the part where Petunia Dursley never has and never will do magic. She's not the one. [Smile]

The candidates include:

1. Vernon
2. Dudley
3. Filch
4. Mrs. Fig
5. A random muggle we haven't seen yet.

I don't think 5 is likely because that would be terribly uninteresting. I don't think Vernon is likely because he's just too set in his ways and I can't even imagine him trying to do magic. I don't think Mrs. Fig is likely because she has been such a minor character until now and so her finally getting to do magic would still be kind of ho hum.

Filch is definitely a possibility. He's lived around magic and has been trying to do magic his entire life. On the other hand, he's been living around magic and trying to do magic his entire life. I think that would make it a bit odd if he finally succeeded now. I guess he could be more frightened or more in need of it than ever before.

My top pick is Dudley Dursley. He's a muggle, but there is clearly magic in his bloodline. He's also in a position where he probably never even tried to do magic before. I also imagine (although it is not explicitly in the story) that much like Petunia/Lily, he is a bit jealous of Harry, deep down inside. Finally, I think it would be very dramatic and ironic if it were Dudley, more so than any other character, because of the way his parents have treated Harry. Drama and irony make good stories, so if it were me, I'd definitely make it Dudley.

Of course, it's not me, so I'm leaving room that it might also be Filch.

Anything else would be disappointing. (Well, except Vernon -- he would just be surprising.)

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Synesthesia
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I kind of want to see Voldermort suffer instead...
I reckon it hurts to split your soul 7 ways, but not nearly enough.

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Uindy
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Dudley doing magic that would be intresting. Dudley is afrid of magic. The shock of him being able to do it would kill him.

What about Hagrid's brother Garwip(sp?). Can giants do magic? That would be an intresting twist. I'm not sure how that would be worked in the plot though.

I think that it will be Filch or Mrs. Fig.

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BlackBlade
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Pretty sure giants can't do magic, but they are VERY resistant to it.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
Especially if a Muggle Born Death Eater decides to just shoot Harry, instead of cast a spell. [Eek!]

In regards to killing wizards using muggle methods, here's a quote from book 1:

quote:
"CAR CRASH!" roared Hagrid, jumping up so angrily that the Dursleys scuttled back to their corner. "How could a car crash kill Lily an' James Potter?

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Puffy Treat
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It could be that Hagrid meant in the case of a car crash, James & Lily would've realized "Hey, our car's gonna crash" and apparated away or something.

I'm not sure that would apply to being shot in the back. [Frown]

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
It could be that Hagrid meant in the case of a car crash, James & Lily would've realized "Hey, our car's gonna crash" and apparated away or something.

I'm not sure that would apply to being shot in the back. [Frown]

Within the Potterverse it would pretty easy for Rowling to say, "Oh hey here's a spell that shields muggle bullets" Or else make bullet wounds easy to treat.
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Belle
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quote:
Thing about Frodo is (whoever brought him up before), he largely got his happy ending.
I disagree. Frodo wanted to go home. He loved the Shire and longed to return to that life. He couldn't. He never got to go home again. That is he didn't get to stay home, which is almost worse, he came back to the Shire but learned he couldn't stay. I don't call that a happy ending for Frodo.

He got a peaceful end, by being allowed to die pain free with the elves, but that does not mean it was the end he wanted, and that doesn't make it happy. Aragorn, by and large, got a happy ending - he got the kingdom, he got the girl. But not Frodo.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
It could be that Hagrid meant in the case of a car crash, James & Lily would've realized "Hey, our car's gonna crash" and apparated away or something.
In that case, the answer to Hagrid's question would be a simple "by happening so suddenly that they didn't have a chance to do anything about it."

Of course, expecting that level of internal consistency may be a mistake.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
I disagree. Frodo wanted to go home. He loved the Shire and longed to return to that life. He couldn't. He never got to go home again. I don't call that a happy ending for Frodo.
I agree. He was just too broken and damaged by the ring to get the happy ending he wanted. It was very sad.

At least Samwise was able to get that happy ending, but that didn't really make up for it.

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Puffy Treat
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Hagrid's never really been the most logical or reliable source of info in the Potterverse to begin with. [Smile]
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Puffy Treat
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Within the Potterverse it would pretty easy for Rowling to say, "Oh hey here's a spell that shields muggle bullets" Or else make bullet wounds easy to treat.

Oh, I have no doubt there are such things, I just think the Wizard or Witch would still need advance warning that a Muggle instead of Magical method of killing was going to be used.
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breyerchic04
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For anyone who is curious what JK Rowling has said or not said. No true spoilers since I'm sure more than this has been said in this thread. Debunked Rumors
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mr_porteiro_head
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In general, I'd place a higher level of reliability on Hagrid's statements about what that world is like world than reader's speculations or expressions of what they want to happen. [Wink]
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Glenn Arnold
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Seems to me that Harry defeating Voldemort would be a horcrux countdown. How many horcruxes are there? And how many have been destroyed?

As to the suffering Harry will go through, each horcrux may require a sacrifice. Look at Dumbledore's hand, and the potion he had to drink to get the locket. (although destroying the diary with basilisk venom was relatively pain free. Will acromantula venom work equally well?)

So what other horcruxes are there? The locket obviously. Hufflepuff's cup? Nagini? Didn't Rowling say we could find all of the HOrcruxes if we read the books carefully?

Other clues: Harry's blood is valuable. This has to have something to do with the look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye, but once again Dumbledore doesn't give Harry enough information to work with. Did Dumbledore leave Harry all the information he needs? Maybe a series of memories in the Pensieve?

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Shawshank
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And remember in HBP where they have to make a blood sacrifice. DD again mentions that Harry's blood is more valuable.
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Puffy Treat
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
In general, I'd place a higher level of reliability on Hagrid's statements about what that world is like world than reader's speculations or expressions of what they want to happen. [Wink]

On a guy who considers hippogriffs and dragons to be "cute"? Yeah. Totally reliable. [Big Grin]

Where did I say I wanted this to happen? I'm just saying it's a possibility they haven't shown yet.

To be fair, Prisoner of Azkaban established that the Muggle "witch burnings" of the 15th century were considered a joke by the Wizarding World, as all it takes is a simple charm to eliminate the chance of being harmed by mundane fire. I imagine there are similar charms for most (if not all) Muggle methods of causing harm.

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Shawshank
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Puffy- Hippogriffs wouldn't be too bad. Half bird, half horse. That's pretty awesome.
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Puffy Treat
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They're also (According to canon HP lore, as per Newt Scamander's book Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them) expressly not to be handled by any but the most experienced, mature wizards. And here Hagrid exposes a bunch of 13 year old punks to 'em.

I don't hate Hagrid, but he really is lacking in good judgement. And I didn't even bring up the Aragog thing. [Wink]

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
Seems to me that Harry defeating Voldemort would be a horcrux countdown. How many horcruxes are there? And how many have been destroyed?

There were 7 Horcruxes. Voldemort already used one coming back from the killing curse that killed Harry, leaving

6...then Harry destroyed the diary, leaving...

5...Dubmbledore destroyed the ring, leaving...

4...The locket that RAB took is one. I need to reread the fifth book more carefully, but I'm thinking it's in Kreacher's stash from some rumors I've been hearing lately.

3...Hufflepuff's thing that Voldemort stole in one of the book 6 memories (I can't call to mind what kind of thing it was right now.)

The last two are more interesting. Dumbledore was thinking something of Ravenclaw's and something of Gryffendor's, but he's pretty sure that the only known relic of Gryffendor is the sword Harry pulled out of the hat in book 2. I have a strong sense that we will have an ah ha moment when we run into these objects.

And of course, a lot of people are suggesting that Harry himself is the last Horcrux because Dumbledore was pretty sure Voldemort hadn't finished making them all when he went to kill Harry and even thinks that kill was going to form the final Horcrux.

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Shawshank
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I think Dumbledore said there were only 6 when he came to Harry's house. It might be that Nagini is his 7th one.
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Christine
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Nagini is what Dumbledore was speculating the 7th might be, but I'm pretty sure he missed the mark on that one. [Smile]
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Dagonee
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There are 6 horcruxes - the 7th part of his soul is still in Voldemort.

Shards of soul:
1.) Diary (destroyed)
2.) Ring (destroyed)
3.) Slytherin's locket (RAB has)
4.) Hufflepuff's cup
5.) Something of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor
6.) Nagini
7.) Voldemort (must be destroyed last)

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katharina
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Dumbledore counted Nagini. The sixth is a mystery.

The seven pieces of TMR's soul: diary (gone), locket, snake, ring (gone), cup, Voldemort, and [?].

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BlackBlade
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Its threads like this that make me completely comfortable with the large diversity of opinion that is to be found within for example Christianity.

We can't even agree on something that is spelled out in no uncertain terms in a series of books that are even written in their original language.

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Christine
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One thought I had about a location for one of the missing Horcruxes...Voldemort has put his Horcruxes in places that are significant to him and no place was more significant to him than Hogwarts. So I'm betting at least one of the missing Horcruxes is there (Hufflepuff's cup of something of Ravenclaw).

What do you think about it being in the room of requirement? Where Malfoy hid that wardrobe and Harry hid his book? Just a thought...

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
One thought I had about a location for one of the missing Horcruxes...Voldemort has put his Horcruxes in places that are significant to him and no place was more significant to him than Hogwarts. So I'm betting at least one of the missing Horcruxes is there (Hufflepuff's cup of something of Ravenclaw).

What do you think about it being in the room of requirement? Where Malfoy hid that wardrobe and Harry hid his book? Just a thought...

But the journal was already at Hogwarts, it seems kinda non uniform to have 2 in Hogwarts and the rest in different places respectively.

Having said that, I am pretty sure that Harry has to come back to Hogwarts for some reason or other. A fight within the vacant school is just too cool to pass up IMO.

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Shawshank
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I read one theory about how Fortescue- the guy who had the Ice Cream parlor- has an ancestor who was a headmaster at Hogwarts. Because Fortescue is the name of the headmaster (has been mentioned in the books)

The physical description is red-headed and apparently is similar to that of the symbol of air, which according to somewhere is the element of Ravenclaw. THen they took that and mentioned the Goblin-made tiara )which Florean Fortescue knew a great deal about goblin rebellions) was seen in the Room of Requirement and might be another Horcrux.

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Shawshank
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The journal wasn't in Hogwarts. It was in Lucius Malfoy's house and secretly gave it to Ginny. It opened the CoS in the school- but the journal wasn't in the school until that year.
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Dagonee
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quote:
But the journal was already at Hogwarts
The journal was with Lucius, not Hogwarts.
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