posted
There is no clique. There are only individuals. Put away your unrighteous indignation and let it go. Really - you'll be so much happier. All is forgiven. You have good qualities - let them shine. Let all this nasty stuff go.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, I think we would. I think the only argument for your not being "in it" is your continual and tiresome complaints about not being in it. *grin*
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
The only remedy Mr Squicky is to form your own clique; one that's more popular and more cool!
But in all seriousness I just have not seen the clique you are talking about but that does not in any way mean you are wrong. For what it's worth, I'd never willingly join such a group. Though we disagree on many things, and on occasion I've been genuinely annoyed at you, I still think you make the community a better place and enjoy your participation in it.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:That is unnecessary. If you join, it will be without your knowledge or permission.
I really don't think we're using the same definition of clique, Tom.
---
Thanks BB, that's nice to hear. I'd say much the same about you. There have been things you've done that I haven't been happy with, but I'm pretty sure you just about always mean well and you're good for Hatrack (and I think Hatrack has been good for you too).
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The clique you are referring to does not exist.
However, if it did, it would hardly go like a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon. I've been in informal social groups before, and there are rarely constitutional congresses involved.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:I really don't think we're using the same definition of clique, Tom.
Oh, we are. I was merely speaking tongue-in-cheek to BB, because I find your whole "clique" thing immeasurably funny. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Have people been smiling at you oddly? The laughter at your jokes changed from raucous to polite? No longer getting calls at 4 am?
You, too, may be suffering Cabalaphiliasterism, the condition of being stranded when your clique has dissolved. Your mind refuses to accept that the tribe that gave you security and identity is gone. Victims of cabalaphiliasterism include Alan Thicke and that 23-year-old who still wears her high school chearleading uniform to parties.
[ September 27, 2007, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
We haven't had a good clique fight for a couple of years. Well, at least that I've been around to see.
I won't deny that there are some people I'm more strongly aligned with than others, and a couple of people I'm counter-aligned with. Imagine if I felt exactly the same towards everyone. Now some people can genuinely love everyone, but I'm afraid the best I could muster would be universal indifference or else paranoia.
I think Hatrack, like any group of a few hundred people, is a kaleidescope of cliques, and it's just a matter of which ones I care to be a part of.
P.S. Actually, I realize that one can't always just decide to be part of a clique. Or maybe one can, but one cannot decide one's role or rank within the clique. I might be the party animal of the linguistics clique, but in the party clique I'm the quiet religious guy who goes crazy.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
MrSquicky with all respects I have to warn you that it's a losing battle to attack 'cabals' and 'cliques' because it's like the dumbest way to handle and/or classify the unpopularity of your position or reputation.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think there is anything as organized as a clique.
But, I do think that people who have had more congenial interactions - either on the forum or in person - are likely to be more sympathetic to each other. And that those sypmathies show. I also think that they make a difference to whether or not I will bother engaging in what is likely to be a less congenial on line interaction.
And there are people that I am not crazy about and who aren't crazy about me.
In those cases, I need more incentive to engage with them.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Samp, I care very little for the unpopularity of my positions or reputations. I do care about fairness and about the health of the forum.
I don't care if people form cliques. I don't care if those groups don't like me. I do care that they seem to not do anything when one of their members acts poorly, unless someone points out this poor behavior, in which case they attack that person, often with lies, insults, and unjustified accusations.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
boots, A big part of my problem is that what people post have an effect on the forum which in turn effects me whether I am engaging them or not. When kat dishes out a nasty insult aimed at Blayne or responds to a newcomer's actually pretty reasonable post by saying that they are engaging in...what was it...space logic or something like that, she is making Hatrack worse and, oh yeah, hurting people. When people tolerate or even defend her nastiness, I think it also has a bad effect on the forum.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Squick, I really think you'll be happier when you let go of the grudge that you're holding against me.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree - I just don't have the energy to be the Hatrack police.
And I don't know that the resulting squabbles are an improvement.
Maybe a better method would be to support whoever was being attacked rather than directly engaging the attacker?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: boots, A big part of my problem is that what people post have an effect on the forum which in turn effects me whether I am engaging them or not. When kat dishes out a nasty insult aimed at Blayne or responds to a newcomer's actually pretty reasonable post by saying that they are engaging in...what was it...space logic or something like that, she is making Hatrack worse and, oh yeah, hurting people. When people tolerate or even defend her nastiness, I think it also has a bad effect on the forum.
For what it's worth, I agree. However, there's a point at which it makes more sense to adapt to a negative influence rather than try to eliminate it.
A long, drawn-out battle can be more disruptive than the initial nastiness that triggered it and if there's no realistic expectation of changing the negative behavior that you are responding to, then its not only distracting, but futile.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Better for the community" can be tricky. Is it worth "keeping the peace" at the cost of ignoring slights to some people? Maybe. It is hard on the folks that are being slighted, though.
I think that supporting the "victim" rather than directly attacking the attacker might be a good middle ground, depending on the egregiousness of the attack.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: what people post have an effect on the forum which in turn effects me whether I am engaging them or not.
I think that the damage your campaign causes to Hatrack greater than the good it could ever hope to accomplish.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can see how letting things slide isn't better for the people who are treated unfairly. And they are also part of the community.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Squick is wrong in his interpretation of events. This years-long grudge he is holding would be better confined to the ether.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:A long, drawn-out battle can be more disruptive than the initial nastiness that triggered it and if there's no realistic expectation of changing the negative behavior that you are responding to, then its not only distracting, but futile.
To a certain extent, I agree with this. I have no expectation of changing kat's behavior by my reaction to her. But it's not her behavior that I am aiming to change.
Consider, even when I laid it out (and serveral other people requested that she take it down) that what she did (in the extremely unlikely case that she didn't intend to insult him) was going to hurt Blayne, she wouldn't take it down. It wasn't until Noemon asked her to that she did. She goes to some length to make it clear that's the reason she did it.
kat isn't going to listen to me, but she will listen to some other people, at least some of whom I do believe are honestly concerned about the forum and don't just define it as the people in their group. I don't want to be the one who calls kat out when she starts acting nasty. It's not something I particularly enjoy; it's something that is going to end up with people attacking and insulting me; it's also not going to do much good in the short term. And, as I've said many times before, I wouldn't feel that I had to do it if I wasn't generally the only person who will.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: Squick is wrong in his interpretation of events. This years-long grudge he is holding would be better confined to the ether.
I don't know what he's specifically referring to, but my impression is that you occasionally say something that seems deliberately mean, sarcastic, or rudely dismissive. I usually let it slide because I don't want to get into one of these types of dramatic exchanges and whether your intention is to be caustic or not, I don't expect anything I say is going to change your behavior.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
boots, How would you suggest supporting people as an alternative method? It's not something I can see working.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Squick is wrong about me and his campaign is damaging to the forum and very, very personal. It's been going on for years. There is nothing good to be gained by it.
I will not be opening this thread again.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: boots, How would you suggest supporting people as an alternative method? It's not something I can see working.
An idea:
In this case, instead of calling kat out on the allegedly/apparently mean comment, you could have just replied that you disagreed and reassured Blayne that you didn't think that opinion was representative of the members of the forum at large. In the cases where I feel attacked, it only takes a small "I'm with you buddy" to make me feel better.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Has the animosity between kat a squick really been going on for years? I've only noticed it in the last six months or so. I mean, before that I didn't really think of them as aligned on very many subjects. But the real dance of anger is a pretty recent phenomenon.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's bad for the forum, because few people every play that card on themselves. It's always something someone else is doing that is bad for the forum, you'll notice. (This a non-particular use of "you").
I used to have a grudge against kat. It was weird because we had similar opinions on a lot of stuff but she just rubbed me wrong (as I saw it.) But the day came when I had to decide whether I was going to meet up with the Utah clump or continue to snub her. I'm glad that I chose to meet up with her. It's really fortunate since we both wound up moving east. I haven't seen her a lot, but I am glad I don't have to go through that struggle I did the first time.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Let's face it-- if you're not in the clique, you're less than stellar. I mean, you might even be pretty pathetic.
I feel pity for you, if you're not in the clique. Not enough to make me take you on as an adept, mind you-- who has the time really, to listen to your whining about not being popular? I'm sure someone does, but that's not me. No, I'll be over here, being Awesome.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I stick with the frame of mind I developed in high school. All those people not looking at me and not talking to me? It's 'cause they know how cool I am and don't want to embarass themselves by showing their unworthiness. Yeah. Too right.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am too awesome for all your cliques. The sooner you come to grips with that fact, the better. Instead, you should just form a clique that does not include me, but which is devoted to admiring my awesomeness. That is the most healthy and productive use of your time.
posted
boots and Matt, I have a couple of problems with your suggestions.
First, the types of things you are suggesting that I say wouldn't necessarily be honest. I very uncomfortable with the idea of using potentially false praise as some sort of counter-balance for someone being treated poorly.
Second, while it may help the individual attacked, it doesn't address the people reading and potentially using the displayed behavior as an indicator of what is and is not acceptible here. I'm not sure if either of you have read what I've written about what I call the two door problem, but I'm very committed to being that guy who will speak up first.
---
What I'm doing definitely has a negative effect on the halth of the forum. I am very aware of that.
Does it have a more negative effect than doing nothing? That I'm not so sure about. At her current rate, sure, but kat used to be nasty on a much more frequent basis in the past, before a couple of incidents ended with many people recognizing her behavior as being nasty and out of line.
If she stopped being nasty, I'd have no problem with her. If other people stepped in when she was, I would feel any need to. I don't think either of those two are unreasonable requests and, to me, are things I can live with much better than "Don't point it out when people (or at least popular people) do something wrong." If what I'm doing is having a negative effect, it is surely not happening in a vaccuum, unrelated to others actions or failures to act.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It bugs me that this is seen as so out of the normal. If you don't see what I see, that's fine, but if you do (or are willing to grant that I honestly do), is acting the way I do really so out of the ordinary?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sometimes, though, the attention gained from being nasty is a sort of reward. The attacker gets to be at the center of attention.
I don't know that this is a disincentive for being nasty. Negative attention can be more desirable than no attention.
I wouldn't suggest posting anything false to bolster the victim. Surely there is something good to say that wouldn't be a lie? This has the benefit of strengthening the victims social ties as well - giving them the kind of armour that the attacker may have.
And it sets a good example.
I do understand the impulse to shame wrongdoers, though, and, while it may be futile (sadly, especially from you because of the history) and may be damaging, I think you must do what you believe to be right.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
