posted
Yeesh, the whole victim thing is icky to me, that someone would build their identity on this or any forum as a victim. I guess it happens, and it happens to me, but discussion of how to do it in a "healthy" way is kind of disonant to me
I guess as a recovery codependent, to me it kind of smacks of eating disorder instructions.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: It bugs me that this is seen as so out of the normal. If you don't see what I see, that's fine, but if you do (or are willing to grant that I honestly do), is acting the way I do really so out of the ordinary?
I think there's a sense of "just let it drop already" even from people that agree with you.I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out misbehavior, I would try to do so in a non-confrontational manner so the offender doesn't feel trapped and then let it go.
It's a lot easier to apologize to "that was really hurtful" than to "I demand an apology". If the apology is not forthcoming, that's a reflection on them, not you, and we're all smart enough to see this without it having to be pointed out repeatedly.
Once it degrades to "did to!", "did not!", there's nothing to be gained by continuing the exchange.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: Yeesh, the whole victim thing is icky to me, that someone would build their identity on this or any forum as a victim. I guess it happens, and it happens to me, but discussion of how to do it in a "healthy" way is kind of disonant to me
I guess as a recovery codependent, to me it kind of smacks of eating disorder instructions.
I think "victim" is being used in a more specific way here, i.e. the victim of a specific mean comment.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: Yeesh, the whole victim thing is icky to me, that someone would build their identity on this or any forum as a victim. I guess it happens, and it happens to me, but discussion of how to do it in a "healthy" way is kind of disonant to me
I guess as a recovery codependent, to me it kind of smacks of eating disorder instructions.
I think "victim" is being used in a more specific way here, i.e. the victim of a specific mean comment.
Exactly. I was just using it to identify the roles (victim, attacker, advocate, avenger) in a particular situation. I did not mean to suggest that they self-identify that way.
I'm not sure where you got that.
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posted
Well, we've had a couple of career victims, who hardly did anything else. I understand the concept of it being a role in a given interaction.
quote:I wouldn't suggest posting anything false to bolster the victim. Surely there is something good to say that wouldn't be a lie? This has the benefit of strengthening the victims social ties as well - giving them the kind of armour that the attacker may have.
The essence of being a victim in relationship addiction is to recruit a defender, and then when they have truly become a protector, to see them as an oppressor and then seek a new defender. It seemed like the discussion was on how best to become a protector.
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posted
No, the two door thing is a distillation of a lot of different principles. It's a relatively trivial example of the principles that undergird the Kitty Genovese incident or the Stanford Prison experiment.
If you get a situation with a large number of people going through a closed doorway (say at a train station, which is where I first noticed this), you'll often see an interesting phenomenom. The early people will open one of the doors, which makes sense. They need to get through, but they don't realy have enough volume to need both. However, most of the press of people behind them will line up to go through the already opened door. However, if someone opens that second door, they will almost immediately reconfigure to go through both doors.
Opening the seond door makes the situation better, but many (most in my experience) never think to do it and take their cues from the people around them.
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The application to the Kitty Genovese incident is probably pretty obvious. That to the Stanford Prision experiment relies on one of the lesser known aspect of the situation. That is, it is likely that the harsh treatment the "inmates" got was not necessarily drawn out by the situation itself, but rather, one of the "guards" wanted to treat them poorly. You can see him in the interviews conducted after the experiment. He's the only one of the "guards" who didn't feel badly about his behavior.
The social dynamics of the guards were strongly affected by him and what he wanted to do. He set the tone as to how the prisoners were treated because he was forcefula nd seemed confident in what he was doing, whereas the other guards were unsure and no one stood up to him. Consider in the Milgram experiment, when there was another person who decided not to go along with the experimenter (especially if that person was high status), the rate of compliance shot way, way down.
In many group situations, people take their cues from what people around them are doing. A single voice can have a profound effect, especially in cases of uncertainty. Introducing dissent to either group direction or group silence (in effect, opening the second door), will often to lead to people actually considering the situation as opposed to adopting the apparent norms.
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posted
pooka, I don't think what you are talking about has much relevance to what anyone else is saying here.
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quote:I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out misbehavior, I would try to do so in a non-confrontational manner so the offender doesn't feel trapped and then let it go.
It's a lot easier to apologize to "that was really hurtful" than to "I demand an apology".
I think this is a pretty good idea for people who are behaving in good faith. For people who are intentionally hurtful and nasty, I think it is much less so.
quote:If the apology is not forthcoming, that's a reflection on them, not you, and we're all smart enough to see this without it having to be pointed out repeatedly.
If that were the case, I wouldn't be doing this. It's common not to want to see flaws in people you like. In kat's case, not only do some of her defenders refuse to see anything bad in her, but they invent it in people who call her on it.
Even in this case, Noemon looked at the nasty insult kat gave and said "Well, I believe her when she said she didn't mean it as an insult." Was there any ambiguity in her statement to justify this? I don't think so. I think he judged it based on that he likes her, not on anything she said or her past behavior in this regard.
(edit: And, ultimately, that would be fine, I guess, if it defused the situation. But she's just going to do it again and again. And at least some of these times, none of the few people who call her on it are going to be around.)
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posted
Well, kmb was saying it was about specific interactions and you are saying it is about a group dynamic (at least, I think that's what you're saying.)
But I think what's important to me about this (today, at least) is that two perfectly "nice" or rational people can fail to get along with each other.
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quote:I think he judged it based on that he likes her, not on anything she said or her past behavior in this regard.
I think JT's theory is more likely -- the way you act makes it very hard for people to give you the benefit of the doubt, that he acted that way not because of Kat, but because of you.
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quote:It's common not to want to see flaws in people you like.
It's equally possible to see additional flaws in people you don't like. I think it goes both ways in this case, and I'd also say that since everyone has flaws, it's not hard to spot them.
I used to dislike Hondas. Everywhere I drove, I thought I could see them acting rudely and one day to my utter delight I saw two Hondas that had been in an accident with each other. I think I realized that I'd become evil at that point and stopped looking for Honda misbehavior.
Similarly, I never knew what a Saturn Ion looked like until I started driving one, and man, those freakin things are everywhere.
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posted
I don't understand how how I acted would be relevant to the determination of whether or not kat intended to hurt Blayne, porter. Could you explain?
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Also, you said I was nasty. Could you show me where?
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posted
What words? (This was in response to a deleted post by porter where he accused me of putting words in his mouth)
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posted
Squicky -- surely you realize that ones feelings or opinions of messenger can have an effect on how the message is received. Ad hominem? Certainly, but also unavoidable to some degree.
You have made it so that you getting on Kat's case is extremely unlikely to get the response you want. Almost anybody else would have a better chance of getting a favorable response.
Because the constant cries for Kat's repentance come from you, they are less likely to change her actions.
Surely you've noticed that. Just the other week, you stunk up an entire thread fighting with Kat again, and she didn't budge one bit. Noemon comes along and asks her politely and she instantly capitulated.
Your credibility as a judge of Kat's actions is extremely low, because you are perceived as extremely biased and as having an axe to grind. Whether it's true or not, continuing with your behavior towards her enforces that perception.
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quote:Surely you've noticed that. Just the other week, you stunk up an entire thread fighting with Kat again, and she didn't budge one bit. Noemon comes along and asks her politely and she instantly capitulated.
Sweet Jebus, that doesn't tell you anything?
Three people tell kat she's being hurtful and she doesn't care. Noemon does the same and she changes it. Do you really think it was her concern about not being nasty or hurtful that changed her behavior?
(edit: I'd also trace "stinking up the thread" to kat's nasty insult of Blayne, but I'm hardly suprised that some people regard that as the fault of the person who said that she shouldn't insult people.)
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I'm still not sure how Noemon's determining what kat initially said was an insult or not is at all tied to me participation. And I'm still waiting to be shown where I've been nasty.
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quote:Almost anybody else would have a better chance of getting a favorable response.
FWIW, I, and at least one other poster, was making the same comments as Squicky and getting a less than favorable response. It wasn't until someone she knows better came along and made the same comment that a response was achieved. I'm not complaining or anything, just pointing out that, in this instance at least, it took more than the poster being not-Squicky.
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posted
I don't see you as nasty, but I see you as focused on something that makes you unhappy.
I mean, I don't point it out whenever some people say something that I consider objectionable, because they do it all the time. Strangley, I tend to get into fights more with people I like because I care about what they say.
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posted
pooka, I don't think you understand me here. I'm not made unhappy by this. I'm not angry. I think that this is wrong, that it is bad for the forum, and I'd very much like it to stop.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: ust the other week, you stunk up an entire thread fighting with Kat again, and she didn't budge one bit. Noemon comes along and asks her politely and she instantly capitulated.
For the record that was page three of this thread. Also, I'd agree with vonk that I shared his sentiment and was puzzled by the sudden turnaround.
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posted
A search on "Squick" by username "katharina" is a somewhat interesting read. I used to think it was just me, but there are a lot of people who seem to have different definitions for 70% of the words in the English language from you.
I'm not saying the rest of us consequently share all the other definitions, in some kind of "Native Speakers of American English" clique that you are excluded from. (Kidding!)
Actually, a lot of the threads have folks siding with you.
And you're right, you're not nasty, but you are that strange quality that so many people on this forum display from time to time, which OSC was accused of, and which it was decided only he should not be forgiven for. I can't say I never have it, because there have probably been times I have pronounced my opinion as if it were written on stone by bolts of lightening. I guess it's pride.
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quote:And I'm still waiting to be shown where I've been nasty.
By stinking up thread after thread after thread in your repeated and utterly futile attempt to change Kat's behavior.
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posted
I think this may be one of the cases where peopel are using words to mean differently than I think they do, because that doesn't sound like me acting nasty at all. I am not being mean or malicious. I have no desire to hurt anyone. That's what I am using as a definition.
I'm not sure what you are using. Unpleasant, maybe? Again, I'm not suprised that some people find a person calling somone else, especially someone that they like, on behaving poorly unpleasant, but I'd suggest that they are maybe pointing the finger as to the source of this at the wrong person.
I've already given reasonable conditions that would stop me from doing this. Have you ever called kat on her poor behavior, porter?
If not, from a certain perspective, I'd say you are more responsible for the stinking up of threads than I am.
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posted
The best definition I can come up with for how I'm using it is "bad behavior".
I know you're doing it in response to what you perceive as bad behavior on Kat's part. I don't think that Kat's behavior (bad or not) justifies bad behavior on your account.
Mostly, Squicky, I'm just tired of the continual catfights between you and Kat.
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posted
I've showed up in threads where kat was planning a vacation and reminded her, out of the blue, that I didn't like her. I don't know how long I kept that up, and it felt like I was acting justly at the time.
And Scott, please please tell me you're kidding.
See, I don't like to go to Sakeriver much, though I like Saxon75 and keep tabs on Karl's odyssey. A lot of the people I like are there, but the manner in which they interact puzzles me because, I guess, I'm not involved in the games.
I'll go ahead and challenge you, MrSquicky, with the idea that you and kat behave as you do not because you feel angry, but to conceal your anger from yourselves.
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quote:Mostly, Squicky, I'm just tired of the continual catfights between you and Kat.
Yeah, and I've told you how you can stop that easily.
Also, I've got to say, I just looked back at your reactions on this thread, and it looks to me like you thought kat's hurtful comments were something to joke about.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: stinking up thread after thread after thread in your repeated and utterly futile attempt to change Kat's behavior.
"Bad behavior" is probably overstating it, though. Like I said, it was the best definition I could come up with, but not a perfect one..
I do think your behavior has net bad consequences for pretty much everybody involved.
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posted
Being "sigged" doesn't really make sense here on Hatrack, but in forums where you can have a signature (or sig) which is attached to each post, being sigged is being quoted by somebody in their sig.
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posted
As I've said, I'm not trying to change kat's behavior, at least not directly. I've already told you what you can do to stop me from doing this. It doesn't sound unreasonable to me. If you're not going to step in when kat nastily insults someone, if you are going to make jokes about it instead, I think you should be concerned about your own bad behavior. and acknowledge your own culpability to what occurs.
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posted
I'm afraid I can be of little help here. I can't imagine that my censure would have any impact whatsoever on any of the bad actors here.
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posted
I'm kind of afraid to mess with kat while she's wearing that creepy Javert Hugo handle.
Maybe you should come up with an alter ego that evokes fear and uncertainty. I recommend Guy Fawkes.
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posted
Gosh, I hope so, or I have likely misinterpreted some things. There's also a plain vanilla Javert running around, just so you know.
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posted
boots, If you wanted to explain to me how my actions are bad (if you see them as such), I'd surely listen. I don't care much for whether or not people like me, but I do try to listen to what people have to say and consider it.
I did consider what you said about a positive rather than a negative response. If I find myself in a situation where I think it will serve, I will certainly use it.
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posted
I'm a terrible actor so no one ever wants to play charades with me. I'm pretty good at pictionary though.
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posted
Noemon, Just a note, I still haven't gotten an email from you. If you've sent it, it must not be getting through. I have no objections to you posting it here if that is the case.
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