quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: disparing remarks about my sex life is well out of bounds of the juridistion of a parent.
You should've punched him back in the face. It seems like that's what your father secretly wanted, in order to gauge your manhood.
Posts: 722 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by pH: I don't think I'm a less capable human being because my parents support me while I'm in school.
Are you capable of making it on your own? Maybe you are, but you can't know that.
Can't know that why, exactly? Because I choose to focus on school right now? I have a job. I have a college degree. I just think that it's important for me to focus on school and on saving money, and my parents agree. In fact, it was their idea. I don't know what your issue is with me personally, mph, but I think you need to let it go.
quote:Originally posted by pH: I don't think I'm a less capable human being because my parents support me while I'm in school.
Are you capable of making it on your own? Maybe you are, but you can't know that.
Can't know that why, exactly? Because I choose to focus on school right now? I have a job. I have a college degree. I just think that it's important for me to focus on school and on saving money, and my parents agree. In fact, it was their idea. I don't know what your issue is with me personally, mph, but I think you need to let it go.
You cannot know that you're capable of doing that because you've never done it.
Likewise, I don't know how I'd handle the death of a parent, since I've never done anything like that.
I never said or implied that you shouldn't be focusing on school right now. I don't know you or your situation well enough to have any opinion.
I wasn't financially independent at your age either.
I'm not attacking you. I don't have anything against you personally, and it's unfair for you to say that I do. You are the one who brought your personal situation into this discussion. You are the one that made claims about it, comparing your situation to others. I disagree with some of those claims. It's not fair to use yourself as a comparison, and then when others disagree with you, claim that they're the ones making it personal.
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posted
It was already made personal by those making blanket statements along the lines of "all children who are not financially independent at 18 are a disappointment."
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pH, you are reading more into it than was said.
This has come up before. I know it's something you are sensitive about. No one is attacking you personally, and it isn't fair to try to shut down the discussion by declaring it is all about you.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:You cannot know that you're capable of doing that because you've never done it.
But one can be reasonably certain of that capability without ever having done it, based on relevant experiences, demonstrated previous responsibility, etc. etc.
I've never driven a Ford F-150, but I'm certain I could do it, based on having driven other cars & trucks. I've never eaten a blackberry, but I know I could do it, having eaten many other things. I've never graduated from college, but I know I could do it, based on my success with classes I've taken, time management skills, intelligence, etc.
That aside, pH probably reacted badly because this phrasing:
quote:Are you capable of making it on your own? Maybe you are, but you can't know that.
is pretty insulting and caustic, whether you meant it to be or not.
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quote:Can't know that why, exactly? Because I choose to focus on school right now? I have a job. I have a college degree. I just think that it's important for me to focus on school and on saving money, and my parents agree. In fact, it was their idea. I don't know what your issue is with me personally, mph, but I think you need to let it go.
*snort* You brought you into this conversation, pH. As usual on this particular issue. As for issues with you, there was that whole not dating poor people thing.
You've got a job, and a college degree, and are saving money and going to school. Good for you. I mean that sincerely. What you've also got is a bunch of free money given to you, even though you've got a job and a college degree.
You can call it offensive all you like, but that's what it comes down to: you're getting lots of free money. So what if you're capable of doing without it? Capability alone is worthless. All the capability in the world never got one thing done, ever.
The fact is that you-or anyone-who gets lots of money for free isn't as mature as someone who is entirely self-reliant for their own living. That's all there is to it. It's not some gigantic character flaw. 'Not as mature' does not equal 'immature' necessarily, and maturity by itself is neither a virtue nor a flaw.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: (eros, you've seriously never eaten a blackberry? Don't you live in WA?)
Seriously, and yes. I'm not a big fan of fruit.
Do I remember that you don't like vegetables either, or am I thinking of someone else?
Someone else - I like vegetables! Some, anyway. The first person to suggest that cauliflower is actually an edible substance is getting my virtual foot in their rear.
(Edit: I think this is my most favorite derail.)
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by pH: Aren't blackberries prickly?
-pH
Yes.... if by prickly you mean delicious.
(They do have little seed-thingies that can get stuck in your teeth - as does their jam - and the bushes sure are prickly, but it's worth it.)
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quote:Can't know that why, exactly? Because I choose to focus on school right now? I have a job. I have a college degree. I just think that it's important for me to focus on school and on saving money, and my parents agree. In fact, it was their idea. I don't know what your issue is with me personally, mph, but I think you need to let it go.
*snort* You brought you into this conversation, pH. As usual on this particular issue. As for issues with you, there was that whole not dating poor people thing.
You've got a job, and a college degree, and are saving money and going to school. Good for you. I mean that sincerely. What you've also got is a bunch of free money given to you, even though you've got a job and a college degree.
You can call it offensive all you like, but that's what it comes down to: you're getting lots of free money. So what if you're capable of doing without it? Capability alone is worthless. All the capability in the world never got one thing done, ever.
The fact is that you-or anyone-who gets lots of money for free isn't as mature as someone who is entirely self-reliant for their own living. That's all there is to it. It's not some gigantic character flaw. 'Not as mature' does not equal 'immature' necessarily, and maturity by itself is neither a virtue nor a flaw.
Now THIS is completely uncalled for and over the top. Again, I'm not the only one here who's brought personal examples into the thread. There's no need for you to single me out, Rakeesh.
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Why exactly is that statement insulting and caustic, erosmniac?
As for driving a -150, and eating a blackberry, those comparisons are just ridiculous. But as for the college comparison, though...
Well, let's suppose you haven't graduated college. Let's say you're in your junior year. Would you say you're as good at graduating from college as someone who has already done so? Or would you have to guess?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: [QUOTE]The fact is that you-or anyone-who gets lots of money for free isn't as mature as someone who is entirely self-reliant for their own living.
Would you argue that the average citizen of a first world country is less mature than the average citizen of a third world country?
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posted
Again, read the previous pages. I am not the only one who's offered up personal examples. I AM the only one who's being dogpiled at this point - yes, I consider the three of you to be dogpiling me.
And saying *resists saying something about how that's not very mature* is not exactly mature. Nor is it resisting saying something, since you are in fact typing it out.
Edit: And thank you for your apology, mph. It is accepted. I'm sorry that I read too much into what you were saying.
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Let me reiterate: you brought yourself into this, pH. Not me. It's not like I set up an Internet forum sting operation, whispered, "Hey, pH, come over here, wouldya?" and then sprung this on you or anything.
Hell, unlike some other conversations on this subject, you brought yourself and your situation into a conversation specifically about whether situations similar to yours are good or not, and then say, "Don't single me out, though. It's offensive if you point the finger at me."
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Let me reiterate: you brought yourself into this, pH. Not me. It's not like I set up an Internet forum sting operation, whispered, "Hey, pH, come over here, wouldya?" and then sprung this on you or anything.
Hell, unlike some other conversations on this subject, you brought yourself and your situation into a conversation specifically about whether situations similar to yours are good or not, and then say, "Don't single me out, though. It's offensive if you point the finger at me."
And again, I say that I am not the only one who brought his or her personal situation into this. So why are you deciding to jump all over me AND make reference to past hurtful statements you have made?
quote:Would you argue that the average citizen of a first world country is less mature than the average citizen of a third world country?
As a matter of fact, I'd be tempted to say something like that, yes. Generally speaking it takes more self-reliance, toughness, etc., to succeed in the third world than it does in the first world.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Why exactly is that statement insulting and caustic, erosmniac?
It sounds snide and condescending. Now, I know mph didn't mean it that way, because I've seen reactions to things he's said before and he just...doesn't. But that's the way it read off the page to me, and how I imagine it read to pH.
quote:As for driving a -150, and eating a blackberry, those comparisons are just ridiculous.
I don't think so. I think they're entirely relevant.
quote:But as for the college comparison, though...
Well, let's suppose you haven't graduated college. Let's say you're in your junior year. Would you say you're as good at graduating from college as someone who has already done so? Or would you have to guess?
That depends on the person, but in my own case, absolutely.
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This is what happens every time this comes up, whether or not (like this time) you bring it up, pH. Someone gets critical, and they're 'jumping all over you'. Now it only takes three to dogpile, no less.
For the record, despite your continual pull of the focus back towards yourself, I'm also talking with Noemon and erosmniac about this subject as well.
And as for not criticizing someone else's personal situation? I criticized Blayne's, didn't I? Or was that not enough for you? Must everyone who is even remotely critical of you on this topic carry a scorecard and put a check next to EVERYONE'S name before they come to you, else they're 'dogpiling'?
You're in this conversation because you brought yourself in.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:I agree, and not just because I'm 23 and still live at home. In my own defense, I'm still in school, work, pay my share of the bills, and am trying to be debt free by the end of the year, so I'm not just freeloading (not to say that Blayne is, though his gaming budget certainly deserves a hit).
quote:I don't think it has to be such a drastic measure for everyone.
I'm 19, I still live with my parents. I plan to until I finish college. They see me as an adult. I see myself as one.
An appropriate time to move out depends on the kid and the parents. If someone can't make the transition then moving out immediately would help. However, I don't see it as the only solution to becoming a functioning member of society.
quote: I'm currently 22 (as of today [Wink] ) and I'm staying at home going to college. I plan to continue this until I can get on my feet with a job and have enough assets that I can support myself. I hope to complete this by the time I get my associates and I plan to transfer. Sometimes though it's not the case, for example Blayne's position.
quote:I've lived with my parents until I was 26, even though I had a full time job for the last 3 years of it. My mum wanted me to stay with them, and of course it was financially a better option for me that living on myself. Hard as it might be for any Western people to accept, I didn't even contribute to household expenses. [Wink] I did lend my parents business money, but they are supposed to give it back some time [Razz]
quote:I did the old-timie girl thing and lived at home until I moved in with my boyfriend.
quote:I was financially dependent on my dad until I was 24, but I moved out at 18. My brothers didn't, and the deal was that they had free board as long as they were in school. If they stopped school, then they had to pay rent.
Why have none of these statements been criticized as harshly as you have criticized me? You've been nasty to me, specifically. So don't claim that I'm the one singling myself out to be criticized.
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This is not all about you, pH. It's barely about you at all. Stop the histrionics and stop trying to pull all the focus onto yourself.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:I don't think so. I think they're entirely relevant.
No they're not. Eating a blackberry: pick up fruit, insert fruit into mouth, chew, swallow. Eating a blackberry: accomplished. The -150 comparison is a bit less outlandish, but would be more legitimate if you'd said motorcycle.
quote:That depends on the person, but in my own case, absolutely.
You haven't graduated college yet, though. You're just guessing. It's absurd to say you're as good at someone else at something you've never done before and they have, and expect to be taken as though you're stating a fact.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Well, I just popped into this conversation, and Rakeesh, I'm going to have to disagree with your point that
quote:The fact is that you-or anyone-who gets lots of money for free isn't as mature as someone who is entirely self-reliant for their own living. That's all there is to it.
I'd really like to know what you're basing that off of. I know many many many people who are much more immature in their uses of money, in their priorities, in their relationships, in ... well, pretty much all around the board, who are financially independent. I'm in college right now so I interact with these people on a day to day basis. I also interact with people who are still dependent on their parents (like me to a certain degree. I'm taking out Stafford loans that my parents will repay) and while not all of them are as mature, a lot of them are more mature than those dependent.
To give you a little personal testimony, maybe you remember when I left for the Appalachian Trail. I raised the money to outfit myself. Everything that went into that venture, whether it be monetary or just time, I put in myself with no help. It was very important that I do so. After spending a month in more extreme circumstances than most people can lay claim to, completely independent, I decided to go home. To go back to being dependent. There is extreme value in being supported by your family, financially or otherwise. You experience things and mature in ways that financially independent people know nothing about. So .... to put it bluntly, I think you're wrong. I also think you should drop the conversation because it's not doing anybody any good, but I can't back that thought up.
As to the initial topic, of which I've only read the first post, Blayne, move out. The experience of getting punched in the face is not one of those gratifying, maturing experiences I was talking about. You need to get in a healthy environment, and if in your home, dependent on your parents is not that environment, you need to fix it. Heck, go start or join a commune. Buy a tent and live in the nearest campground. Crash with some friends, even if you have to walk there. Just don't sit around and do nothing.
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quote:So don't claim that I'm the one singling myself out to be criticized.
You're not singling yourself out to be criticized. You're holding your own circumstances up for scrutiny, and inviting it, by your own words. Now I know you'd prefer to have all the scrutiny be favorable, but that's not your call.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: This is not all about you, pH. It's barely about you at all. Stop the histrionics and stop trying to pull all the focus onto yourself.
Histrionics? To what, exactly, are you referring? I think it's entirely reasonable for me to question why Rakeesh is personally attacking me when I am not the only one who has used personal examples in this thread.
quote:So don't claim that I'm the one singling myself out to be criticized.
You're not singling yourself out to be criticized. You're holding your own circumstances up for scrutiny, and inviting it, by your own words. Now I know you'd prefer to have all the scrutiny be favorable, but that's not your call.
But you are only scrutinizing my circumstances. I don't see you making offensive posts directed toward any of the posters quoted above. I think it IS my call to say that you're being a bully in this instance.
posted
At this point, you're being the bully by insisting on the conversation all being about you. Let it go.
For the histrionics, I'm referring to the 5+ posts listing the supposed sins against you and demanding a personal apology.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Generally speaking it takes more self-reliance, toughness, etc., to succeed in the third world than it does in the first world.
Both "succeed" and "mature" can be defined in many different ways. To suggest that more of "x" makes a person more mature or more successful is to assume that everyone shares your standard of maturity. Whether "x" is college, financial independence, money, or Ford F-150 driving experience, the idea that more of it determines maturity levels for everyone is a bit ridiculous.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I don't think so. I think they're entirely relevant.
No they're not. Eating a blackberry: pick up fruit, insert fruit into mouth, chew, swallow. Eating a blackberry: accomplished. The -150 comparison is a bit less outlandish, but would be more legitimate if you'd said motorcycle.
Exactly. I'm aware of the requisite components for success in eating a blackberry or driving an F-150 or graduating from college, have demonstrated all of them repeatedly in the past, and am therefore certain (i.e. I know) I can do it.
quote:
quote:That depends on the person, but in my own case, absolutely.
You haven't graduated college yet, though. You're just guessing. It's absurd to say you're as good at someone else at something you've never done before and they have, and expect to be taken as though you're stating a fact.
See above.
Edit: It's also important to note that we haven't been talking about these things on a scale of how well they can be done, but whether they can be done at all. Hence, there's no "as good as" component involved; it's an I/O question.
To suggest that I am as good at making furniture as a man who's done it for twenty years when I've never done it at all, based on the idea that I know how to shape wood and attach the pieces together, for example, would be absurd.
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quote:There is extreme value in being supported by your family, financially or otherwise.
Yes, there is. I've never claimed otherwise. All I'm asserting is that that support is there. Someone who needs (or gets) their family's help to survive is not a bad person. They're just not as self-sufficient and mature, in such things, as those who don't, that's all.
I don't see why this is such a contentious thing. I'm not as good at taking care of my yard as my neighbor is, if to achieve the same result I hire some landscapers to come do some of the work. I may very well have the potential to be as good at that particular skillset as he is, but in day-to-day reality I am not.
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posted
I see your point when dealing with specifics, but do you think it can be generalized to include "living" as a whole?
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The summer I turned 19, I decided to live on my own, without parental help, going to school full time, working part time, and preparing for a mission. I thought I was capable of doing all that.
It turned out that I wasn't, partially due to a struggle with depression. My parents bailed me out, and it wasn't a big deal.
Before I tried, I didn't know whether I was capable of that or not.
I'm not ashamed that I wasn't capable of living and going to school on my own at that point.
If I had been capable of that, however, it would be something to be proud of.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Blayne Bradley isn't this Blayne Bradley, is he?
quote:You know, I thought about it and decided I should come clean, but it's hard to actually write it out. Know what I mean?
Well, here goes nothing.
Blayne Bradley is actually an alternate ID of mine. On Sakeriver too. I was using it just for kicks, you know, setting up an antagonism and seeing how things played out, and then Mike said how he didn't want any alts, and I felt like I had to keep up the illusion so nobody would find out. And it's really gotten out of control since then. I find myself arguing with myself even when I'm nowhere near the computer, and telling myself to drop dead, or that I'm stupid, whatever. It's gotten to the point where it's almost like there is a separate entity inside of me called "Blayne Bradley" now.
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It is accepted. I'm sorry that I read too much into what you were saying.
