quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: The summer I turned 19, I decided to live on my own, without parental help, going to school full time, working part time, and preparing for a mission. I thought I was capable of doing all that.
It turned out that I wasn't, partially due to a struggle with depression. My parents bailed me out, and it wasn't a big deal.
Before I tried, I didn't know whether I was capable of that or not.
I'm not ashamed that I wasn't capable of living and going to school on my own at that point.
If I had been capable of that, however, it would be something to be proud of.
Did you take a break from college to do your mission, or did you wait until after you finished? Just curious...I thought that the former was more common.
posted
That is a joke thread. It's on a forum where lots of members have mod powers and edit each other's posts to say things that the original poster would never say.
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Um, if you look closer at that page, you'll see that just about every statement is over-the-top ridiculous.
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Oh, please. Now I'm a bully? Right. Well, it didn't take as long as I thought it would before you started name-calling people who dared to criticize you.
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quote:Exactly. I'm aware of the requisite components for success in eating a blackberry or driving an F-150 or graduating from college, have demonstrated all of them repeatedly in the past, and am therefore certain (i.e. I know) I can do it.
Again we come back to 'potential'. Potential doesn't do anything, ever. I could, if I wanted to, hike the Appalachian Trail with the same degree of success as mentioned above. I have not done so. Wouldn't it be presumptuous and silly of me to then say, "I'm just as good at hiking that trail as he is!"? Of course it would be.
Because potential doesn't hike trails, eat blackberries, pay bills, or ride motorcycles. It affords the possibility of doing so, no more, no less.
If I hired a porter to carry some of my gear on the trail, would I be fair to be upset with someone who actually hiked their own gear the entire way and claimed to be better at hiking than me? Of course not! At best I could say, "I coulda been better, I just didn't want to that time." And I may very well be speaking the total truth there.
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quote:Again we come back to 'potential'. Potential doesn't do anything, ever. I could, if I wanted to, hike the Appalachian Trail with the same degree of success as mentioned above. I have not done so. Wouldn't it be presumptuous and silly of me to then say, "I'm just as good at hiking that trail as he is!"? Of course it would be.
Of course. Reread my last post for what I have to say on "as good as."
It wouldn't be ridiculous at all to say "we can both hike the Appalachian Trail." Whether you've actually done it or not doesn't figure in.
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quote:Originally posted by pH: [QUOTE]Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: [qb] Did you take a break from college to do your mission, or did you wait until after you finished? Just curious...I thought that the former was more common.
I went to school for a full calendar year (3 semesters) and then went on a mission. After my mission, I went back to school.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I went to school for a full calendar year (3 semesters) and then went on a mission. After my mission, I went back to school.
If you'd be willing, I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say, if anything, about the contrast of school pre- and post-mission.
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I went on my mission before college. I'm quite sure that if I had done the year of college before mission thing, that I wouldn't have graduated with the GPA that I did and might not have been admitted to the 4-year university that I was (I went to two years of community college and transferred).
This is not to say that that choice is right for all (and I turned 19 the November after I graduated from High School so it was more of a viable option for me), but rather to say that, for me, the contrast was huge. I was much more focused, disciplined and socially and intellectually mature post-mission and that led to a pretty decent academic career.
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I was a much, much better student after my mission than before my mission. I went after I'd been in school for three years already, but I could still tell the difference.
It was a maturity thing. Work no longer felt like a sacrfice from the good things in life - it felt like a way to achieve and gain and earn the good things in life.
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Pre-mission, I didn't know what I was doing. More of my energy was spent at having fun, being social, and not being beholden to anybody for the first time in my life. I got OK grades, but the majority of what I took was 100-level introduction courses, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my education and career. I didn't know what I wanted to study, as long as it wasn't engineering.
After my mission, I came back and declared a major in Mechanical Engineering. I was much more diligent with my schoolwork, and got exceptional grades, enough even to re-qualify for the insanely stingy requirements for BYU's basic full tuition scholarship.
That fist semester, my diligence caught the attention of one of my professors, and he gave me a job as a TA, which paid almost double what I had ever been paid before. I worked part or more time from then on, and went to school full time almost non-stop until I finished the coursework for my masters degree.
I was still extremely social, but my social life almost always took a back seat to my academic career, instead of the other way around as it had been before my mission.
Before my mission, I was pretty much an immature high school student taking classes at collge and having fun living away from home.
After my mission, I took my schooling seriously, had goals, and did what was necessary to accomplish them. I still had fun, but that was no longer the purpose of going to school.
I don't really know what you were looking for, eros. Does this answer your questions?
(BTW, I almost always see your name as "ersomaniac" in my brain.)
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Zalmoxis & Javert: Thanks. I asked because although I'm not Mormon, I've taken a lot of time off because I didn't enjoy the academic part of college while I was there. I've been working for 4 years since then, and I've been thinking about going back to school. It's reassuring to hear that your outlook on education changed; it's what I'm hoping will happen to me if/when I start taking classes again.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelagius: Blayne Bradley isn't this Blayne Bradley, is he?
quote:You know, I thought about it and decided I should come clean, but it's hard to actually write it out. Know what I mean?
Well, here goes nothing.
Blayne Bradley is actually an alternate ID of mine. On Sakeriver too. I was using it just for kicks, you know, setting up an antagonism and seeing how things played out, and then Mike said how he didn't want any alts, and I felt like I had to keep up the illusion so nobody would find out. And it's really gotten out of control since then. I find myself arguing with myself even when I'm nowhere near the computer, and telling myself to drop dead, or that I'm stupid, whatever. It's gotten to the point where it's almost like there is a separate entity inside of me called "Blayne Bradley" now.
Yeah, that's not really my writing style. It's clear and well-written. I tend to ramble and not really come to a point.
It was modded by someone. Heaven knows if I can remember what I originally wrote. It was probably a poop joke or something.
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Something else I didn't mention: a lot of those changes started happening the summer that I started trying to pay for my education, which was before my mission. After my mission, I completely paid for my own schooling.
My mission had a large effect, but I think that so did paying my own way.
We tend to value more those things that we sacrifice for. When my folks were paying for it, I didn't value my schooling as much, and didn't get as much out of it.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Something else I didn't mention: a lot of those changes started happening the summer that I started trying to pay for my education, which was before my mission. After my mission, I completely paid for my own schooling.
My mission had a large effect, but I think that so did paying my own way.
We tend to value more those things that we sacrifice for. When my folks were paying for it, I didn't value my schooling as much, and didn't get as much out of it.
I can see how that'd be the case. If/when I go back to school, I'd likely be paying for it myself (although I might be buying my first home instead--guh, what a choice to make).
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quote:Would you argue that the average citizen of a first world country is less mature than the average citizen of a third world country?
As a matter of fact, I'd be tempted to say something like that, yes. Generally speaking it takes more self-reliance, toughness, etc., to succeed in the third world than it does in the first world.
That's really interesting. My first response to that was to say that I disagreed; that people in third world countries simply gained different skill sets than people in first world countries, and that the difference between them wasn't something that could be measured in terms of maturity at all. After thinking about it, though, I'm not so sure. The people that I've known who grew up in third world conditions have all possessed a certain ability to exploit the opportunities available to them that is fairly impressive. On the other hand, all of the people I know who grew up in third world countries are almost by definition going to be like that; they're the ones who had the resourcefulness and tenacity to extricate themselves from the circumstances they've found themselves in.
Back on the other side, looking at the families I know who have immigrated from third world countries, the children who were old enough to be able to be said to have grown up in third world conditions have that resourcefulness, whereas the ones who were very, very young when their families came over definitely don't.
In any case, I suppose that there's only so much to be gained by trying to extrapolate from the people I know whether or not this is the case; I'm basically drawing on ancecdotal evidence in doing so.
I guess that a starting place for figuring out whether or not this is the case would be to define maturity.
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For what it's worth, my dad loves hiring immigrants, because he finds that those who come to America as adults tend to be responsible, innovative, mature employees.
They work really hard to make the shop immigrant-friendly. They take steps to make sure the Muslims can keep their dietary laws in the kitchen, and they've scheduled break times so the Vietnamese can eat fish and rice (which smells very, very strong) without offending the noses of/inciting objections from the other employees. For those that want to learn English, the shop will pay for classes.
This is all because, in the owners experience, those from third world countries make fabulous employees.
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quote:Yes, there is. I've never claimed otherwise. All I'm asserting is that that support is there. Someone who needs (or gets) their family's help to survive is not a bad person. They're just not as self-sufficient and mature, in such things, as those who don't, that's all.
Rakeesh, I don't think you can blanketly state that those who are not 100% self-sufficient are less mature than those who are. You don't know what other experiences those people have had or the reasons why they are or are not self-sufficient. I'd also like to know how you're defining mature in these statements.
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How about this? People who support themselves are more independent than people who rely on their parents to support them. Being independent is one component of self-sufficiency and self-sufficiency is one aspect of maturity.
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It all depends on what maturity is, though. Is self-sufficiency an essential aspect of maturity? Can a person be mature if they are unable to take care of themselves without help from others?
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quote:People who support themselves are more independent than people who rely on their parents to support them. Being independent is one component of self-sufficiency and self-sufficiency is one aspect of maturity.
I think that's a pretty fair summary of the situation as long as people don't equate "rely on their parents" with "accept a financial gift from their parents."
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: It all depends on what maturity is, though. Is self-sufficiency an essential aspect of maturity? Can a person be mature if they are unable to take care of themselves without help from others?
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: It all depends on what maturity is, though. Is self-sufficiency an essential aspect of maturity? Can a person be mature if they are unable to take care of themselves without help from others?
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: It all depends on what maturity is, though. Is self-sufficiency an essential aspect of maturity? Can a person be mature if they are unable to take care of themselves without help from others?
Sure. They could quite likely "make up" what they lack in self sufficiency by having an abundance of other components of maturity.
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quote:People who support themselves are more independent than people who rely on their parents to support them. Being independent is one component of self-sufficiency and self-sufficiency is one aspect of maturity.
I think that's a pretty fair summary of the situation as long as people don't equate "rely on their parents" with "accept a financial gift from their parents."
If you receive regular financial gifts, you're almost guaranteed to rely on them unless you take steps to avoid it, such as putting the money away in a separate account so that it doesn't affect your spending at all.
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If you couldn't maintain your lifestyle without the money provided by your parents, then your lifestyle is still dependent on them, no matter what the money is called.
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quote:If you receive regular financial gifts, you're almost guaranteed to rely on them unless you take steps to avoid it, such as putting the money away in a separate account so that it doesn't affect your spending at all.
I think as long as the financial gift is being applied towards something that you're both willing and able to give up at any moment, then I wouldn't view that as reliance. Although, yes, I do agree that regular financial gifts could very easily lead to reliance.
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My husband and I are both grad students. We could take out student loans to make up for what we can't pay. I was completely willing to, filled out the paperwork and had decided that it was worth being in debt for the education. My father in law said us going into debt was silly when he had plenty of money just sitting around that he wanted us to have. I still consider my family independent and self reliant. We fill out all the student loan paperwork every year and if a lovely check doesn't arrive from family, then we would take out that debt.
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quote:Originally posted by msquared: Oh the women's movement will love to hear that. "I am going to live with my family until I, or they, find someone to take care of me." Many of those cultures also have arranged marriages, is that how we want it to go?
The cultural bit about the children living in the parental home until marriage (probably depending on the cultural to some extent) is not just for women. It's also for men. My husband and his brother both lived in their parents home, and still do, despite both being married. It is a different culture, and it works. Well.
However, here (and in many places), the children are also expected to contribute to family finances, sometimes turning over significant chunks of their paycheques to the parents to pay for expenses.
And I'm not sure why arranged marriages were brought up. They tend to be just as successful as love marriages. Just as a side note.
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When Christy and I moved in together, her father responded by cutting her off from the college fund he'd taken out in her name. I'm still not sure that's legal, and we were furious about it at the time, but I understand why he did it.
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I paid for the first half on my college education, and my parents paid for the 2nd half. I was willing and happy to take out loans to pay for it, but my parents were willing and happy to pay for it. I thought that was a very nice gesture and was glad they could and would do that. I happily accepted, and the money I saved during college allowed me to buy my first house within six months of graduation.
If I'd wanted to go to grad school, my parents would've probably offered to pay for that. I wouldn't have let them, because I think that's too much to ask of them. I think the best reason to go to grad school is because of the much higher income potential that having a graduate degree offers. And so you should be willing to take the financial risk that accompanies that potential reward. Otherwise you end up with people floating through grad school on daddy's dime because they're not ready to join the real world.
I know about a dozen such people currently in grad school.
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It boggles my mind that there are parents who can pay for their children's schooling. Especially when you get to grad level. The thought of having so much money is incomprehensible. Man...
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quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: No one is attacking you personally, and it isn't fair to try to shut down the discussion by declaring it is all about you.
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: You're singling yourself out, pH. You are not the focus of the entire conversation and were not a focus at all until you made yourself one.
*resists saying something about how that's not very mature*
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: This is not all about you, pH. It's barely about you at all. Stop the histrionics and stop trying to pull all the focus onto yourself.
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: At this point, you're being the bully by insisting on the conversation all being about you. Let it go.
Kat, It seems to me that you were the one being immature here. And arrogant. And snooty. And condescending. And a bully. The only one making it all about ph was you - by saying it over, and over, and over again. Maybe you didn't realize you were doing this. Then again, maybe you did. I really hope it was unintentional, though, and I'm going to assume it was.
Either way, you owe her an apology.
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*considers* Maybe for the *resists* comment. Just because Cicero does it, that doesn't mean it wasn't snarky. I take that one back.
For the rest, I was right. And rollanim, don't speak to me in that manner. You haven't earned the right and I'll let you know when you have. In the meantime, don't do it again.
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quote:The only one making it all about ph was you...
Let's be fair here. pH made it all about her too.
Edit: Oh, and can we drop this bullying crap, please? Unless she's somehow incapable of defending herself against criticism, she's not being bullied, she's being criticized.
Claiming victimization doesn't make it true.
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Roll, the ad hominems are inappropriate. Your choice to shout a pejorative label does not bring truth; it degrades the discussion and we deserve better than that.
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quote:The only one making it all about ph was you...
Let's be fair here. pH made it all about her too.
Edit: Oh, and can we drop this bullying crap, please? Unless she's somehow incapable of defending herself against criticism, she's not being bullied, she's being criticized.
Claiming victimization doesn't make it true.
You admitted that you had a personal issue with me. You DID single me out, as I have pointed out several times. Your tone to me has been derisive and disrespectful because of some comment I made a very long time ago that you misinterpreted as "I'm too good to date poor people." I don't know where you're reading all this high-and-mighty stuff in my posts, but it's not there, no matter how much you wish it to be. And you have now dragged me back into the argument and singled me out yet again.
By the way, let me get this straight. If I defend myself, I'm making it all about myself...but if I don't defend myself when you single me out, then you ARE being a bully? I can't really win there, can I?
posted
"Unless she's somehow incapable of defending herself against criticism, she's not being bullied, she's being criticized."
The capability (or lack thereof) of defending yourself has nothing to do with whether or not a criticism of you is in any way insulting.
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Your manner is insulting and your intrepretation was both biased and mistaken.
Mostly, I object to your use of personal insults. If you can't present an argument and must resort to flinging feces, then you are not defending anyone so much as degrading the discussion with your crap. Keep it to yourself.
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I presented my point. I provided proof. I did not insult you. Every word I used can be accurately and definitionally applied to your own attitude. I simply reflected your own judgment back on you so that you could see how insulting you were being - whether you intended it or not.
And now you are attempting to do the exact same thing to me that you were doing to ph - forcing a label of intent on me based on your misguided character judgment. The thing is, you're the one committing these sins that you accuse others of. You personally insulted. Your interpretations were biased and mistaken. You resorted to ad hominems and pejorative labels. And you declined to provide proof of those judgments.
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kat, you were rather doggedly trying to get ph to listen to you. i don't think you needed to make the point more than once -- pearce assuredly read the post, and any additional ones were just uncharitable.
i think people are drawing a rather arbitrary line between what constitutes immaturity and maturity. does someone gain maturity merely by supporting herself succesfully outside of her parents' home? does one lose maturity if she had once supported herself successfully. but for extenuating reasons needed to move back home?
this entire conversation has annoyed me in ways I can't fully articulate yet. I was living on my own (with a roommate) for two years, and after losing that roommate, had to move back home. I'm frankly boggled at the notion that for two years I was more mature, and now i've somehow regressed to a state of immaturity. or that had i never moved out, i would be essentially unchanged in those two years.
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Hey Kira. I assume you guys had a safe trip back home?
I'm in complete agreement with you here, on all points. I don't understand how anyone can draw such definitive conclusions about the relationship between maturity and independence.
And then when these conclusions are questioned, they are redefined so broadly that there really was no point in the distinction to begin with.
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We did, thank you! It was really nice meeting you guys, even if we barely had any time to chat! We were so overwhelmed by all the awesome talks to see and people around us -- like true nerds, we were basically star-struck and giggly everytime Dan Dennett or Richard Dawkins walked by!
and i definitely agree with your last point.
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The discussion concerning me is inappropriate and you are both mistaken.
For the maturity issue, no one is saying that maturity equals the only good or that immature equals bad. There is, however, something more independent about taking care of yourself without help from anyone else. There's something less independent and less individualistic about relying on other people for fincing a place to live, paying the bills, making the living decicions - all of that.
Those who have never done that and refuse to find out - refuse to leave the nest - do have things left to accomplish in their life that they haven't done yet.
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The question is not wether you moved back home. The question is what did you do once you got there? Did you pay rent? Were you trying to find another place and move out?
When I changed schools I lived at home for about 4-6 months. After about 3 months I was ready, as were my parents, to move out. I was going to school full time and finally found a part time job that paid enough that I could afford rent and food and gas and such. My parents still paid for college.
Again, it is not just the living at home. It is the desires of the people involved. Are you looking at Mom and Dad as a way to cover for you? Do you think "Cool, Mom can cook and do my laundry while Dad takes care of my car." Or do you say "What can I do to get back out there on my own." or "How can I help my parents out for their helping me out."
quote:There's something less independent and less individualistic about relying on other people for fincing a place to live, paying the bills, making the living decicions - all of that.
I can agree with less independent, but that's about it. I think suggesting anything else, such as being less individualistic, is an unfair assumption based on incomplete information.
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