quote:I have been consistent in my view but have accepted other people protestation that I might have been too broad in my initial statement.
I appreciate that. I agree much more with your current statement than the initial broad generalization. Although, I still don't quite understand why you feel that receiving financial aid from your parents while living on your own is better than paying for your own expenses while living with your parents?
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
It isn't always except when living on your own you are more responsible for your own place and your own personal upkeep.
I would much rather see someone have their parents pay for school while the kid learned how to cook, clean, do laundry, sew etc. Except, the kid should already know how to do all this stuff.
Maybe more life experince. Realizing that Mom and Dad will not be there to cover for you, standing over top of you telling you to clean your room.
posted
Ok, that makes sense. I still disagree about some of these issues, but I think I mostly agree with your overall explanation. At the very least, I don't find your clarified view to be offensive, just, um, different than mine.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I have been consistent in my view but have accepted other people protestation that I might have been too broad in my initial statement.
I appreciate that. I agree much more with your current statement than the initial broad generalization. Although, I still don't quite understand why you feel that receiving financial aid from your parents while living on your own is better than paying for your own expenses while living with your parents?
Possibly, from my point of view, is that the former is a step toward being self sufficient (assuming that the financial aid is for school) while the latter isn't? Does paying expenses include rent?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ok, here's my experience. I lived with my parents for two years of my college life. I worked full time while also attending college full time. I paid for my college, and other expenses, such as car, phone, internet, and even food. The only thing I did not pay for was rent and utilities. When I finally did move out, I still managed to be able to cook, clean, do laundry, the occassional sewing of a missing button, etc. (which I was also doing when I lived with my parents), so I don't think my parents did me a disservice by allowing this arrangement, and I don't really think I have missed out on any essential life experiences. I certainly do not think that my parents failed me in any way.
However, I can understand how a parent with different objectives may feel differently. I can also see how such an arrangement could potentially lead to self-reliancy issues for a child.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I lived at home during summer breaks from school. I didn't need to live at home. I had scholarships, and I had a summer job, so I probably could have been completely independent (and for the most part, when I was at school, I was). I liked staying at home and being with my family, though. I don't see a problem with that.
I also don't see my current situation as particularly immature. I'm staying with my parents for the semester while I work on recovering from a health problem. I don't see myself as less mature right now than when I was living in another state, far away from my parents. That situation may have required more maturity, but I didn't suddenly lose all that experience and ability just because I moved back home.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Now, I think there is potentially something wrong with a family where a (physically, emotionally, mentally capable) child is not doing his/her own laundry, basic mending, cleaning, and preparing at least half of his/her own meals by the time he/she is a teenager, as well as assisting in upkeep of communal parts of the home and preparation of family meals on a regular basis. I think that's part of my disconnect with a few posts here-- I assume that most people are pretty much caring for themselves and their living space by the time they are an adult whether that living space is shared with parents, roommates, or no one.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Now, I think there is potentially something wrong with a family where a (physically, emotionally, mentally capable) child is not doing his/her own laundry, basic mending, cleaning, and preparing at least half of his/her own meals by the time he/she is a teenager, as well as assisting in upkeep of communal parts of the home and preparation of family meals on a regular basis. I think that's part of my disconnect with a few posts here-- I assume that most people are pretty much caring for themselves and their living space by the time they are an adult whether that living space is shared with parents, roommates, or no one.
Of the kids I knew in high school, I can think of maybe 5 that lived to this standard.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I'm in high school and I can't think of any that meet ketchupqueen's standards. I only have two real chores in my house. (1) Load/unload the dishwasher (2) Put away my clothes.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
When I was in high school I did my own laundry (by the time I was 10, actually), cleaned my room, helped clean other parts of the house, prepared most of my own meals, however I did not mend nor did I prepare family meals. The reason for that is because I am horrible at sewing, and made it very visible, and my parents rarely prepared "communal meals" either. We all ate at different times, more often than not.
Posts: 2705 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I did my own laundry and basic mending and cleaning and preparing (e.g., buying, cause I couldn't cook worth crap) and yeah assisting in 'upkeep' when I was 15 years old but this is because I was a SPACE ALIEN who did not even remotely resemble normal teenagers, who do not do ANY of these things (and of course indignantly assert their right to being given cars in the process)
Then by the time I was 18 this strangely reverted. We had a maid, we didn't even clean our own communal spaces anymore. I let other people cook for me! My room degenerated into a nest of clothes. Doing laundry? Peh. Don't make me laugh.
The moral of the story is that you better hope your kid is a slacker as a teenager because otherwise they'll blind you with fake progress and then they'll turn out 'mature' like me!
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I'm 33, married, with a baby on the way, and still gladly and gratefully accept gifts and money from my parents, and to a greater extent, my in-laws. (Sometimes fairly substantial gifts.) My husband is an only child and they'd rather see him enjoy the money now instead of after they're gone. I'm perfectly happy with this situation, and so are they.
I'll happily accept being less self-sufficient (or being less mature, whatever people want to call it) in return for these benefits.
In fact, I've had this discussion with a close friend many times. We own our own homes, pay our own bills, etc. etc., but we also know that in the case of a true financial crisis, our parents would help us out. (Rescue us. Bail us out. Whatever.) So we're not really self-sufficient in the way that some people have to be. And I'm not only OK with that, I'm DELIGHTED about it. I'm very fortunate.
And in return, I also expect to do the same for my children. In the other direction, my husband and I expect and intend to do what it takes to care for our parents as they get older--just like my parents are doing for their parents, just as my in-laws did for theirs.
So, to answer TomDavidson's much earlier question: I'm mostly financially independent, but not totally. I know that the safety net is there, and in the meantime, my parents and in-laws sometimes buy me things/ give me money for things I couldn't otherwise afford. I don't find the definition offensive. Doesn't bother me a bit.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I'm actually surprised more kids don't live like that.
That's the way it was in my house, and all my friends' houses growing up. My husband did all of that except assisting with the cooking of family meals (his mom was kinda weird about her kids cooking for the family.) His friends were the same way.
Perhaps it depends on the kind of community you grow up in?
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Now, I think there is potentially something wrong with a family where a (physically, emotionally, mentally capable) child is not doing his/her own laundry, basic mending, cleaning, and preparing at least half of his/her own meals by the time he/she is a teenager, as well as assisting in upkeep of communal parts of the home and preparation of family meals on a regular basis. I think that's part of my disconnect with a few posts here-- I assume that most people are pretty much caring for themselves and their living space by the time they are an adult whether that living space is shared with parents, roommates, or no one.
Whereas I find it absolutely bizzare that any member of a household would be doing their own laundry separate from the family laundry. And why would anyone be preparing at least half of their own meals separate from the family?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Now, I think there is potentially something wrong with a family where a (physically, emotionally, mentally capable) child is not doing his/her own laundry, basic mending, cleaning, and preparing at least half of his/her own meals by the time he/she is a teenager, as well as assisting in upkeep of communal parts of the home and preparation of family meals on a regular basis. I think that's part of my disconnect with a few posts here-- I assume that most people are pretty much caring for themselves and their living space by the time they are an adult whether that living space is shared with parents, roommates, or no one.
Whereas I find it absolutely bizzare that any member of a household would be doing their own laundry separate from the family laundry. And why would anyone be preparing at least half of their own meals separate from the family?
When my boys were teens, I had them do their laundry separately -- partly as training, partly to reduce my own load, partly because their stuff was gross . They learned fast that if they wanted something done Monday morning, well, they not only had to remember to do it, but they had to remember that they weren't the only ones that might need stuff done. They collaborated in those circumstances readily. It was all good!
The meals, I figured breakfasts and lunches were being talked about more than family meals -- and times when a teen got back later than dinner, etc. (Even then I guess leftovers would be, well, left over.)
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Well, that might not apply if family meals three times a day were the standard. But in families (like those in my area) where breakfast was usually eaten alone and lunches were packed and taken to school, teens were expected to be able to get their own breakfast, pack their own lunches, and get their own snacks. Dinner was the meal eaten as a family.
And family laundry? We each generated enough for about one load of whites, one load of colors a week. We did our own. I did know friends' families that collected it all together; the teens in those families were expected to do at least 2 loads a week. My mom, my brother and I all took turns washing all the sheets and towels, etc.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Ah. We sorted the colors into much more detailed divisions. And ate school lunches in junior high and high school. And cereal for breakfast, which I suppose counts as "preparing" a meal, although I wasn't thinking of it that way.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Until we moved to Hawaii, our laundry was more or less communal, mainly because of the way it had been set up from the time my children were small. Once we moved here, we all started doing our own laundry.
As far as meals, when we were all together as a family, each of my 4 oldest children (ages about 10 & up) had an assigned night to plan, prepare and clean up dinner. I helped quite a bit with the 10 & 12 year olds, but my teenagers were certainly expected to prepare the meal on their own. They usually got the nights I had classes (when I was in school). I always made breakfasts (never cold cereal... I've never been able to stomach that stuff), they had school lunch most of the time, and on weekends everyone made their own lunches for the most part.
Now that it's just me and my youngest daughter, things are much less structured, but she prepares dinner once or twice a week usually and does all of her own laundry.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:What father would want his daughter to marry someone who could not support her?
This is not necessarily a sexist statement. In fact, If I had a daughter I would probably not be happy if she married someone who could not support her. I would be fine, though, if she and her spouse* chose an arrangement in which she supports the family financially.
* Note the gender-neutral term. Wouldn't want to be accused of heterosexism. Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Do any of the people here who actually did receive or are receiving financial assistance from their parents think that this has harmed them in the long run?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Do any of the people here who actually did receive or are receiving financial assistance from their parents think that this has harmed them in the long run?
I don't mean to imply anything by this, but: why do you think they would necessarily be able to tell?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I don't necessarily. But for instance, if you wanted to know if sending your kids to a certain school would help them, you'd most want to ask people who went to that school, no? They may not know for sure what the true effect was on them and they may not know for sure how they would have turned out otherwise, but if they all seem to be happy with the school they were sent to, even afterwards, I think you are hard pressed to be too angry at the parents for sending them there.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I feel bad for you, Blayne. I don't think any parent has the right to punch his or her kid except in self-defense (and vice versa). I'm not commenting on the rest of your situation.
Posts: 781 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
In The Millionaire Next Door, the researchers discovered that adult children who recieved financial help from parents were considerably less like to ever gather wealth (as in savings, not yachts and furs) of their own or ever achieve financial independence.
The more help and the more regular the help ("gifts" that are akin to bonuses every year), the less likely the adult children were to become financially stable on their own.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:the researchers discovered that adult children who recieved financial help from parents were considerably less like to ever gather wealth (as in savings, not yachts and furs) of their own or ever achieve financial independence.
While I don't necessarily doubt that this is often times true, I do wonder about the other factors that may or may not have been considered in this simplified [edit] relationship.
Edited out "cause and effect" since it really isn't stated as such.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Ok, I'm looking at some of that now. My initial guess, though, is that the problem isn't as much the bailouts as it is the parents failing to teach their children about money, budgeting and investing in the first place. The bailouts are just an extension (or perhaps symptom) of the initial problem.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Sure, that makes sense. It isn't supported by the research, though.
THat wasn't the relationship that was found. The variable that made the difference was whether or not the handouts existed, not whether or not money and investing and budgenting was discussed in the home.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Well, if the children had been taught financial responsibility to begin with, they may not have needed the bailouts in the first place. Thus, it's possible the bailouts are perpetuating an existing parental problem, not the source of the problem.
That is why the authors say, "Don't talk about your wealth or promise to leave a large inheritance" instead of "Don't leave your adult children a large inheritance because then they will no longer be able to be financially independent."
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
It wasn't only bailouts. It was handouts. It money from parents not directly applied to costs of higher education.
Money from parents to adult children, especially at regular intervals, make it considerably less likely the adult children ever achieve financial indpendence or wealth.
In other words, it doesn't matter how much you talk to your kids about living within their means if you simultaneously supply with them with a way they don't have to. The actions speak louder than the words.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:In other words, it doesn't matter how much you talk to your kids about living within their means if you simultaneously supply with them with a way they don't have to.
And I'm not completely convinced of that. Of course, I haven't read the book, so I really can't comment any further on the subject without knowing what the book actually says.
quote:Money from parents to adult children, especially at regular intervals, make it considerably less likely the adult children ever achieve financial indpendence or wealth.
I do agree with this, though.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I assume that means significant financial gifts. A check for $25-100 every birthday isn't going to jepordize anyone's financial independence is it?
Also, did the study look at all at what happened when/if the gifts were stopped? Because someone who received a significant financial gift every year until their parents died and then inherited a pile of money would never be financially independant, by definition. But that says nothing about whether they have the skills to support themselves or could have lived quite happily without the gifts. (Or was it saying that people in that situation don't properly manage the money that they do earn+receive, save for retirement, etc.?)
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:In The Millionaire Next Door (my review), authors Thomas Stanley and William Danko devote two entire chapters — 69 pages! — to “economic outpatient care”, the substantial financial gifts some parents give their adult children (and grandchildren). Their research indicates that “the more dollars adult children receive, the fewer they accumulate, while those who are given fewer dollars accumulate more”.
The authors note that some forms of economic outpatient care, including subsidizing an education and funding business ventures, have a strong positive influence on the recipients. (They teach the children “how to fish”.) But most financial assistance simply creates a cycle of dependence:
What is the effect of cash gifts that are knowingly ear-marked for consumption and the propping up of a certain lifestyle? We find that the giving of such gifts is the single most significant factor that explains lack of productivity among the adult children of the affluent.
posted
It sounds like these authors are possibly switching correlation with causation, based on how you've described the research. Isn't it just as possible that the reverse is true: that not knowing how to save money properly causes people to more often ask their parents for money?
Also, the suggestion that "the giving of such gifts is the single most significant factor that explains lack of productivity" is not supported by the study. Productivity is how much you produce, not how much you save. The study is looking at how much they accumulate wealth. You can produce just as much or more and yet still accumulate less wealth if you are also consuming more. Although they talk about "productivity" it seems like the authors' problem is really about overconsumption, not underproduction.
posted
Again, very interesting. I definitely stepped back and evaluated our savings habits in light of this. (That is--we do receive what I consider substantial gifts from our in-laws, although they certainly aren't in the $10k/ year range.)
And then I remembered that they have changed how they give us gifts. They used to give us a check and say, "Use this to buy XXXX item that needs to be replaced in your house." But we would sock it into savings, shop around (sometimes for years...it really did take us 2 years to pick out and buy a new sofa), usually get the 6-months-same-as-cash deal, and pay for the item out of our income. Now they tell us to go BUY whatever it is, and they'll send us a check. :)The savings habits we learned from them frustrate them when they want to give us a gift.
So in my individual and anecdotal experience, these kinds of gifts haven't overcome the basic financial values my husband and I learned from our families growing up: save save save save save.
It could possibly be the difference between being the offspring of middle-class families who are now well-off because of careful saving, and being the children of the truly affluent. But I also haven't read the book.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
No, I just read what you've provided. How is it clear that that isn't the case in their research?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:It could possibly be the difference between being the offspring of middle-class families who are now well-off because of careful saving, and being the children of the truly affluent. But I also haven't read the book.
It addresses that issue in the book.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I know there have been times in the past I was more "dependent" financially on my mom and sister than I should have been (especially when I was first a single parent, and my kids were pre-school). Although, as a teen, I did move out of the home at 17 and live totally independent for awhile, albeit leaning heavily on savings I'd accumulated up to then (which didn't last long - I learned a LOT about how expensive it is to live alone).
However, now my mom is retired and financially dependent on me. Somehow that makes me feel vindicated (is that the right word) for the times I needed to lean on her. Now it's my turn.
Posts: 9538 | Registered: Aug 2003
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(If you have time. Yes, I can go read the book myself but I'm not going to have a chance this afternoon. )
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I've been reading this thread and it's been very interesting.
Does anyone else know a young couple that has had everything provided to them by their parents? I've known a couple of them, and while I'm sure it's not the same for every couple out there, it's been shocking to see their behavior and compare it to their financial situation. One couple in particular has been married for five years (they were married when they were both twenty) and they have never had to save to buy a thing. Instead of encouraging them to save their money, both sets of their parents have insisted on furnishing everything they ask for, including their furniture and new cars. (The old cars were in good condition.) The man's father gave the son access to his mutual fund earlier than planned in order to allow the son to pay for his college tuition, and he bought him a new computer as well. The woman's parents even pay the couple's cell phone bill. As a result, most of the couple's money goes to vacations, video games, and guitars. As far as I know, the man never finished his first semester of school.
All of that could just be attributed to very loving and generous parents. But the behavior of the couple is very odd. Neither of their personalities has matured beyond the high school level. It's difficult for me not to correlate the behavior of the two with their complete dependence on their families. But I'll admit that there have been times that I was extremely jealous of their nicely furnished home and new cars. Maybe it's colored my view. Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think what you are providing for and why is important. That article pointed out that paying for education and business start ups has a different result then just gifts. So, while my father in law pays for a lot of our stuff right now, we know it is for our education, not enjoyment. Before my husband went back to school, when we complained about not being able to afford a bed (we slept on an air mattress on the floor), he laughed and talked about the joys of being young.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
We slept on an air mattress for two years. Actually, we had one twin air mattress and one super-hard foam "mattress" that we squished next to each other. We took turns using the air mattress.
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. They learned fast that if they wanted something done Monday morning, well, they not only had to remember to do it, but they had to remember that they weren't the only ones that might need stuff done. They collaborated in those circumstances readily. It was all good!
