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Cameron doesn't have to be good at playing human. Just looking the way she looks, no one would ever suspect she is a killing machine. I liked the way the other terminator who fell to the street with her did a quick analysis, realized she was a terminator of an unknown type, and chose the option to flee. Good choice--especially since she might be a newer model with some as yet undisclosed abilities. That's twice now the question of what model terminator she is has come up, and not been answered. She also mentioned they were in the building where she had been built. Make that three foreshadowings now--there has got to be some special surprise in the the model of terminator she is.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Valentine014: I am watching T2 right now and I think I have figured it out. Music! The show is missing the suspenseful music.
Yes! The music is key. I actually think the terminator in the opening dream sequence of pilot was well done. He had the facial expression and the body build down perfect. Cromartie was better in the third episode than in the first (probably because of the clothes).
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Yay for the return of Terminator! I thought it was a great episode. I don't know why the new character had to look like she was from the Jetsons though.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Good point. By the way, that's Shirley Manson, lead singer for "Garbage". And she's the one who sung the song at the beginning of the episode. The song's name is "Samson and Delilah", like the episode.
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yes, that "We'll see" was a good moment. As for the T-1000, I have to admit that I was never real fond of that kind of terminator in the movie Terminator III. I thought that because the TV series is assumed to come between Terminator II and III, and that III had actually been knocked into a temporal loop because of the changes made in the TV series, there would be no T-1000s. They are just too hard to deal with, and just a little too hard to suspend disbelief for such an improbable thing. How could it be flowing and changeable like liquid mercury, and yet solid and strong enough to toss around a T-101 (the Schwarzeneggar type)?
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I think Schwarzeneggar was a T-800-101, where 101 referred to his cosmetic appearance as Schwarzeneggar.
Posts: 2489 | Registered: Jan 2002
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In Terminator 2 special edition Schwarzeneggar is a T 800 series model 101.
I'm also not fond of the T 1000. They just seem to be to invincible.
I think that Cameron is some sort of special Terminator that is better at learning...and adjusting. When the T 1000 was talking about how machines that break the rules are so rare...it made me think of her. Also, in the first season we hear her playing piano and dancing, which is something different. Perhaps it shows she has creativity.
*Some spoilers for the most resent episode*
Finally...did anyone else notice that when she rebooted (after John put the chip back in...and stopped them from burning her), her display still said that she was supposed to Terminate John, but then it said "Override Termination" suggesting that she can override her programing herself.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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I thought this episode was better than pretty much all the other ones combined. I liked the fact that it didn't begin with a lame monologue trying to sound deeper than it was. I really liked the fact that even though Cameron's "I love you line" was predictable and a tad cliché, it was incredibly well done. I'm genuinely unsure how they're going to Jon's relationship with her play out, whereas most shows spell it out from the beginning and then just string it along ridiculously till the series finale.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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I can see John's relationship with Cameron playing out the same way that his relationship with Arnold's terminator did, but not before she takes his virginity (Because the tension is there. We all know it ).
Cameron has to be destroyed eventually if the beginning of T3:ROTM is to be believed. By that point (if the show remains on track), Cameron will have become a beloved, deeply developed character. Something far more than machine. Her death makes this fact far more tragic.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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It really didn't make sense to me for her to kill the whiny AI guy. He wasn't a threat, just an annoyance, and leaving a trail of bodies everywhere you go seems stupid to me.
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: [QB] I can see John's relationship with Cameron playing out the same way that his relationship with Arnold's terminator did, but not before she takes his virginity (Because the tension is there. We all know it )./QB]
I actually wonder whether terminators come with remotely functional sexual organs. It seems a weird thing for them to need. (Then again, I guess we already met that terminator that got married to the woman politician or whatever she was to manipulate her.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Reader: ... Cameron has to be destroyed eventually if the beginning of T3:ROTM is to be believed. By that point (if the show remains on track), Cameron will have become a beloved, deeply developed character. Something far more than machine. Her death makes this fact far more tragic.
I don't think it necessarily works that way. T3 takes place in 2004, this TV show has already jumped to 2007 in the pilot so we're already developing a new time-line.
Furthermore, I don't think its the intention of the creators of the show to make it consistent with T3, e.g.:
quote: GN TV: Are you working within the continuity of the Terminator movies, specifically Terminator 3?
Friedman: We're gonna go off on our own. I think the thing about T3 is, obviously there was just no Sarah Connor and that's something the fans were never happy with. I don't even think the people who made T3 were happy with that. It just wasn't a choice of theirs. You know, Linda Hamilton was going through some things and didn't want to be a part of it. They had a script at one point I know; there was a T3 that had Sarah in it. I've never read it. I don't know anything about it. But I know that they did and they wanted to do that. They wanted it to be kind of her trilogy, and it never could be. So I think that my feeling was this TV series to me sort of serves as the third act to that trilogy - what could have happened had we followed that after T2. So I almost think of this as T3. To me it takes the place of T3. But also I think that sort of in the spirit of Terminator, it's an alternate timeline. I know a lot of people get very worked up about the continuity and the canon and all that stuff. What I try to do is stay very, very true to the first two movies and then sort of take it from there. But always remain true to the spirit of everyone's intent and again, take some time with this woman and explore what maybe would have happened.
IGN TV: So we shouldn't expect her to get leukemia in Season 3?
Friedman: You should not expect her to get leukemia in Season 3… Unless Lena really pisses me off.
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Right, Mucus. The producers said the show assumes an alternate history created by changes Sarah and John have made, which makes the T3 movie obsolete. Already we have Sarah outliving her own death. I wish this would be done for the Aliens cycle, and get rid of Aliens 3, with its abominable violation of everything good in the story lines of the first two movies.
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quote:I don't think it necessarily works that way. T3 takes place in 2004, this TV show has already jumped to 2007 in the pilot so we're already developing a new time-line.
Although T3 may be erased, I have a feeling they'll still want to make room for T4, and unless Cameron is showing up there (doubtful), she's still probably slated for death.
On one hand, in the abstract, I think it'd be such a powerful scene (especially with multiple seasons to build it up instead of a 2 hour movie). On the other hand.. it'd be the exact same thing as in T2, which might be a little too repetitive.
I'm not sure what I think about them ditching the leukemia thing. I actually thought that added a nice extra layer of forboding-ness (which is totally a word) to the scenario.
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I think I read somewhere that the new T4 assumes that the T3 did happen, and is completely ignoring the TV show. Or was that a dream?
Posts: 413 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Right, Mucus. The producers said the show assumes an alternate history created by changes Sarah and John have made, which makes the T3 movie obsolete. Already we have Sarah outliving her own death.
I hope T3 is obsolete now. It ruined much of the mythology of the franchise, at least for me.
And didn't that movie take place some time around 2009-2010?
quote:I think I read somewhere that the new T4 assumes that the T3 did happen, and is completely ignoring the TV show. Or was that a dream?
That sounds more like a nightmare.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pretty sure that there are currently two threads running. There's the T3 -> T4 movie thread, and then there's the show thread that branched off at T2. The two are completely separate alternate universes.
In fact T4 is the first movie of a second trilogy about the resistance war.
quote:I think I read somewhere that the new T4 assumes that the T3 did happen, and is completely ignoring the TV show. Or was that a dream?
That sounds more like a nightmare.
Thats what I heard anyways. AKAIK, T3 and T4 are sequential and split off from the TV show with no real communication between the two.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sounds like the Sarah Connor Chronicles world and the T3-T4 world are alternate universes with their own story lines. Thats fine. To each his own.
As I said before, I wish this could be done for the Aliens cycle of movies, too. Everything after Aliens should be set aside as an alternate universe, and the real, BETTER story line would be one inwhich the soldier and the little girl survive, there is no alien stowaway, and they do make it safely back home--only to find, perhaps, that some aliens have gotten back to earth by other means. Then we can bring the Predators back into the story line (AvP was OK, but it needs to be continued in a better way than AvP2 did it with its simplistic slasher plot).
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'll avoid specific spoilers, but why did the writers of last night's episode decide to give up? I expect to stretch reality for the very premise of this show, but that one had so many holes in it - mostly relating to nuclear power plant security and safety - I just stared goggle-eyed.
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What got me was how many terminators there are. What chance do the Connors have? Soon all the terminators SkyNet ever made, and all the resistance fighters who survive, will be showing up as time travelers.
You have to be careful when writing fiction stories that involve time travel. It is really tricky. The writers for the TV series have been doing fairly well, but I think they are on the verge of losing their way. They may get to the point where John and Sarah and Cameron (if she remains loyal) and Reese travel back in time a few years, so the writers can sweep away all that has gone before, and start out fresh.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: What got me was how many terminators there are. What chance do the Connors have? Soon all the terminators SkyNet ever made, and all the resistance fighters who survive, will be showing up as time travelers.
You have to be careful when writing fiction stories that involve time travel. It is really tricky. The writers for the TV series have been doing fairly well, but I think they are on the verge of losing their way. They may get to the point where John and Sarah and Cameron (if she remains loyal) and Reese travel back in time a few years, so the writers can sweep away all that has gone before, and start out fresh.
Keep in mind that not all these Terminators are there for the Connors. Each has their own programed task.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
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Cameron is really going native, isn't she. She's seriously irked with John for saving her, she's contravening her own programming by not terminating him... she may be evolving into something the creators of the terminators never anticipated. Real independent AI.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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This is another one filmed in New Mexico, but none of us got to be in it. We REALLY wanted to be in the new Terminator movie, but they didn't call us as extras in that either.... SIGH
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quote:Cameron is really going native, isn't she. She's seriously irked with John for saving her, she's contravening her own programming by not terminating him... she may be evolving into something the creators of the terminators never anticipated. Real independent AI.
I just watched Terminator 2 again on Saturday. There's a scene I didn't notice before (I'v only seen it once) where Arnold says something about his CPU allows him to learn and evolve, but that Skynet puts some kind of limit on it to prevent terminators from thinking too much and going rogue just like Skynet did in the first place. So I don't think it's unexpected for Cameron to develop a variety of strange behaviors if John reprogrammed her in the future.
However, right now she does seem pretty "buggy," lagging out at random intervals, probably because of the damaged chip.
quote:"So is she a threat?" "I don't know, girls are complicated."
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Ha ha, yeah I loved that line. This episode wasn't very good, but it still had some cool moments. Next week looks like it should be good.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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If it is anything like the new set of Batman movies, then I'm fine with having two seperate storylines. It's only fiction.
I wish the TV show didn't insult my intelligence by suggesting a janitor can get into restricted areas of a nuclear power plant, even if she has the right key card. Shouldn't that set off all the alarms for someone?
I have to agree with Ron. I don't like multiple new terminators popping up. It sets up too many scenarios for multiple paradoxes (I know, I know, but I have already fully suspended my disbelief.) especially if the writers forget to destroy a terminator that has been killed. I prefered it when there was only one terminator posing as a FBI agent, and another as a politician's husband. Though I admit, I can't remember the details of that situation.
Lostinspace, I think that all of the terminators are programmed to kill John Conner if they meet him, even when that is not their primary mission. I think that happened in T3.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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I don't have a problem with there being multiple terminators. It makes reasonable sense for Skynet to have sent a bunch back. What bothers me is the population density. This applies to the whole show - how is it that all these people manage to end up in the same city, when they should be constantly on the run, and they have a whole world to constantly run to. (I know, John and Sarah are trying to have a "normal" life, but why do they end up settling down in a city where people already knew who they were?)
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They have given up on running and are trying to stop Skynet from ever coming into existance. If that happens, however, that means no more John!
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
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Just saw the new episodes on Hulu. I kinda expected a T-1000 to show up eventually, and of course this time it's another hot looking Terminator with a foreign accent, so no argument there.
Best comment about Episode 2 comes from Hulu:
quote:So the message of the show is to you kids our there is, no matter now hot your computer looks in a miniskirt, don't fall in love with it. And hot girls are pool hustlers.
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: No it doesn't. He already exists dummy.
Think of the reason he exists...if skynet does not exist, there would be no reason to send his father back through time. If his father does not go through time, he does not meet Sarah and sorry but then no John!
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
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It doesn't work that way. The kid who invented the Turk was alive in the future. Now he's been killed. If he's dead, they wouldn't have sent anyone back to kill him, and he'd be alive. It's the grandfather paradox.
The same thing is true for John himself. If they manage to kill him, he'll never become a threat to them, so they'll never have to send anyone back to kill him, so he'll grow up and become a threat to them, so they'll send terminators back to kill him, ad infinitum.
Clearly, once a change has occurred, the futures either branch, or get replaced, but those who exist in the past are already there and part of the new timeline, even if their source no longer exists.
There's an interesting result from this. Even if they manage to prevent SkyNet from ever coming into existence, the terminators who have been sent back in time will still exist. There just won't be any more sent back. So they have to not only stop SkyNet, but they have to destroy every single terminator that's already been sent back. Otherwise a loose terminator could start it all going again. And for all we know, they've sent one back to 1950 to just sit and wait and make sure things turn out right. <brr...>
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quote:I wish the TV show didn't insult my intelligence by suggesting a janitor can get into restricted areas of a nuclear power plant, even if she has the right key card.
It is also insulting and lazy of them to let a nuclear power plant hire a janitor and send her to work that day, immediately after the interview.
Surely nuclear power plants have a more stringent vetting procedure then McDonalds.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:I wish the TV show didn't insult my intelligence by suggesting a janitor can get into restricted areas of a nuclear power plant, even if she has the right key card.
It is also insulting and lazy of them to let a nuclear power plant hire a janitor and send her to work that day, immediately after the interview.
Surely nuclear power plants have a more stringent vetting procedure then McDonalds.
If you watch the show, they kind of passed by all the quickly with a I see you passed the exam and background check. They really don't tell us when they did that exam. I know it was with in two days, so yeah a little unreal, but hey it is fiction after all!
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: It doesn't work that way. The kid who invented the Turk was alive in the future. Now he's been killed. If he's dead, they wouldn't have sent anyone back to kill him, and he'd be alive. It's the grandfather paradox.
The same thing is true for John himself. If they manage to kill him, he'll never become a threat to them, so they'll never have to send anyone back to kill him, so he'll grow up and become a threat to them, so they'll send terminators back to kill him, ad infinitum.
Clearly, once a change has occurred, the futures either branch, or get replaced, but those who exist in the past are already there and part of the new timeline, even if their source no longer exists.
There's an interesting result from this. Even if they manage to prevent SkyNet from ever coming into existence, the terminators who have been sent back in time will still exist. There just won't be any more sent back. So they have to not only stop SkyNet, but they have to destroy every single terminator that's already been sent back. Otherwise a loose terminator could start it all going again. And for all we know, they've sent one back to 1950 to just sit and wait and make sure things turn out right. <brr...>
I guess it all depends on the theory of the time travel you follow. The turk was invented and done when he was killed. So killing him did not make much of a change in the future. Ending skynet would end the resistance, hence, no terminators sent back in time hence no one needed to save Sarah Connor. This would end John. There have been other sci fi novels and movies that base on the change of an event in the past will end or future will change all of the future and past.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Jun 2008
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How could they pass any decent background check? Their phoney IDs could not be that good.
I agree with Lisa, once you have come back in time, you have stepped outside of the reach of cause and effect, and become your own independent cause. Or at least, cause and effect cannot flow from the future to the past, only from the past to the future. There is no Grandfather Paradox.
The only way to have a timeline evaporate is to travel further into the past and undo it. It is a sort of seeking the ultimate high ground, who can go back further. What SkyNet should do is wrap itself in pseudo-flesh and send itself way back into time, before the invention of gunpowder, and rebuild itself there and exterminate all the humans.
Wait a minute--who's side am I on, here?
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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He doesn't need to send back his father to exist. If he went out right now and killed Kyle Reese as a little kid, he wouldn't fade out of existence. Of course, he would still need to send him back if SkyNet sends the original terminator back again. If they fail to stop SkyNet from being created, their priority should be to get time travel out of the hands of SkyNet.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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The Grandfather Paradox never made sense to me. If you exist at a certain point in time, you exist. It doesn't matter how you got there.
More to the point, any sci-fi story about changing the past inherently assumes the Grandfather Paradox doesn't exist. If it didn't, the story would be completely pointless.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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In the Terminator universe, causality can with time-travel proceed from merely "potential" futures.
Kyle Reese was from one potential future. Removing that potentiality doesn't wipe out Kyle Reese -- causality doesn't work that way, because when Sarah Connor met him he was still existing in a potential future.
No Grandfather paradox -- if you go back and kill your grandfather, then he'll be dead, and you'll still be alive. The causal arrow that caused you passed through a once-current, then-potential, then-impossible future, but it's still there.
(As a sidenote, up to and including Terminator 2, there was no certainty that world history could be modified at all. The protagonists believe they've altered history in T2, but the viewers had no need to believe that they were right -- this is altered in both T3 and the Sarah Connor chronicles, as both talk about alternate timelines)
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To fix all possible paradoxes, all of the causal arrows must eventually converge on the point that created the original time-travelling paradox, no matter what time it actually happens. In the Terminator franchise, for all possible paradoxes to be rectified, Skynet must be created and it must take over the planet. Because that is how it originally happened, that is the only way it can happen.
Do I have this right, or am I missing something?
I think I understand why the grandfather paradox doesn't make sense to you, Raymond Arnold. Paradoxes by definition destroy themselves.
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