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I believe it was Season 2 (may have been 3) in which the timer at the swan did not get reset. Desmond went under the base during all the chaos, and took out a key. There was a "fail-safe" installed in the swan and when Desmond put the key in and turned it.
The reason I bring it up is because what happened when he turned the key was the same white light as the explosion in the past. It threw Desmond and Locke out of the hatch, and there was a crater there when they looked. I think it was a bomb!
Because of this, I think there is one of two possibilites. Either the bomb that exploded in the swan was put there by Dharma after the incident, or it was already there when they salvaged the station. The second scenario would support the losties being in a time loop in which they continually go through the same scenario leading up to "The Incident"
I don't know how Jacob could play into this though. I always looked at Jacob as a "God" like figure, his nemesis as "Lucifer," and Richard as either an angel. Not in the literal sense, but they fit those roles. Jacob obviously knows what will happen in the future (or has happened!) and may have the ability to travel through time. His nemesis however does not seem to have this ability (that we know of) but has the ability to disguise himself.
Richard (and I assume Jacob and Essau) are immortal, though in the latest promo posters Richard looks like he is getting grey as well as some wrinkles. This leads me to believe that Richard has lost his immortality now that Jacob is dead.
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quote:Because of this, I think there is one of two possibilites. Either the bomb that exploded in the swan was put there by Dharma after the incident, or it was already there when they salvaged the station. The second scenario would support the losties being in a time loop in which they continually go through the same scenario leading up to "The Incident"
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the bomb exploded in 1977, that same bomb can't explode again in 2004 (or whatever year that was). Bombs aren't multiuse. They explode once, then they are gone.
Either one of your scenarios would be consistent with a continuing time loop that could be very slightly different on each iteration, but ultimately lead to the same result. So maybe on the last iteration, the losties never got the bomb to the drill whole, but the Dharma initiative was able to get it after the incident and build it into the hatch. Maybe on the last iteration, the losties got go the bomb to the drill hole, but Juliette wasn't able to get it to detonate. (Is Juliette in the Dharma picture shown to Sun?)
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quote:Originally posted by Wendybird: So someone tell me, how can Juliette die in the past as a result of the whole explosion thing but be alive in the future living the events that happened after the Losties get to the island? Is time just some random series of events that do not happen sequentially any longer?
Juliette comes to the island in ~2000. In 2004 she gets transported back to 1974. In 1977, she dies in a nuclear blast. On her personal timeline, her death comes after the events in 2004. It is all sequential for her.
In 1977, there are two Juliettes. A child living with parents who are getting divorced, and an adult working with the Dharma initiative on the island. The adult is killed, the child is not and lives to come to the island in 2000.
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So basically its one big loop. She's born, she grows up and ends up on the island, she goes back in time and dies then is born, grows up and ends up on the island which transports her back in time where she dies again?
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No... forget absolute time. Look at her timeline. She's born, grows up, ends up on the island, goes back in time and dies. Period. That's her timeline.
In our timeline, she comes into existence out of nothing at the age of around 30, lives a few years on the island, and then sets off a hydrogen bomb by hand and dies. A few years later, she's born, grows up and ends up on the island. She's there on the island until the time travel thing happens, at which she ceases to exist in our timeline.
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Lisa's right, it's a big mistake to look at it as a loop. There is no loop except for the verbal one you have gotten yourself into.
Which, incidentally is a big problem I have with the compass from last season. The compass has no origin. At least none that we've seen. Locke gives Richard the compass in the 50s, and Richard seems to give the same compass to Locke in 2004, which Locke travels back in time with. The compass was never created. They very easily could have not created this paradox by Richard, either before or after Locke shows up with the compass in the 50s, attaining the "original" compass, giving that one to Locke in 2004, and retaining the one Locke gave him in the 50s.
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However I don't want Juliet to be dead at all! she's a good character. I still stand by that they should have killed of Kate, but I guess it wouldn't be believeble for her to sacrifice herself to try and push reality into a new timeline.
The only time loop I've seen is the compass between richard and locke. There is no start to the compass' timeline. Juliet is born. Thats a direct start to her life.
edit: haha strider you just beat me too it! same minute i think
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I've see parts of episodes on two separate occasions, so I have a pretty good idea of what's going on but I need to be filled ino some of the details. I know there was a plane crash and the survivors ended up on some island somewhere. Then what?
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Juliet was great (and I liked the couple) but the end of the last season bugged the crap out of me. Every few seconds we get heroic musics and mystical looks as if to suggest she's transcended mere mortal reasoning in her desicions (in which she rarely participates but simply throws her loving husband who she no longer trusts despite all evidence and promise on his side) and then discover she's merely reversing her position once again, and again for no, or bad reasons.
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Juliet was brilliant in Season 3, but I thought was mostly wasted in Season 4 and 5. Particularly 5.
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In terms of the bomb, that is what I meant Rabbit. Think Pastwatch, but in Lost.
The bomb in the original timeline did not explode, and Dharma installed the bomb as a fail safe in case the "incident" ever happened again. This is why the hatch was detroyed when Desmond turned the key.
When the losties went back in time, they obtained the bomb and took it to the Swan, where they detonated it. The entire point of the bomb detonation WAS to create a paradox.
There is soemthing we do not know though. If the bomb was detonated and everything was "reset" then it completely nullifies everything that happened to the other group still in the future. This obviously would not make sense, so that is going to play into it somehow. Who knows? The bomb may not have reset anything, and perhaps the "incident" combined with the bomb created some space time rift that transports the losties in the past to the future where Jacob just died. Jacob may have been talking about Jack, Sawyer, and the gang when he said "They're coming!" right before he died.
I guess we don't know a lot about Jacob, but if he died in the future, shouldn't he still be alive in the past? Or is his existence constant? (I don't know if that is the right phrase to use)
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quote:Which, incidentally is a big problem I have with the compass from last season. The compass has no origin. At least none that we've seen. Locke gives Richard the compass in the 50s, and Richard seems to give the same compass to Locke in 2004, which Locke travels back in time with. The compass was never created. They very easily could have not created this paradox by Richard, either before or after Locke shows up with the compass in the 50s, attaining the "original" compass, giving that one to Locke in 2004, and retaining the one Locke gave him in the 50s.
Perhaps the compass is intentionally given as a clue that we are looking at time in the wrong way. What if time in this show is like a coil? If we look at the coil head on it looks like a circle with no beginning or end, but when you look at it from the side you realize that it isn't a single ring, but rather a series of connected rings that are slowly progressing in a certain direction... with a beginning and an end. So maybe the events depicted on the show have not just happened this one time, but are happening over and over again, slightly differently each time, making it slowly progress. At some point in the repeated cycle, a compass was created and was passed back in time into the next cycle, and thus got stuck in the repeat. That would make it appear, if you only look at just one cycle (much like looking at the coil head on), like the compass was a paradox. But once you raise the possibility that the cycle is slightly different each time, then the paradox disappears.
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Now that I'm completely caught up on this thread, I just wanted to say that I'm not tossing in my vote for any theory at this point. We'll be rewatching the last season soon (and hopefully will finish before the new one starts airing) and maybe then when it's all fresh I'll have something to contribute. Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Which, incidentally is a big problem I have with the compass from last season. The compass has no origin. At least none that we've seen. Locke gives Richard the compass in the 50s, and Richard seems to give the same compass to Locke in 2004, which Locke travels back in time with. The compass was never created. They very easily could have not created this paradox by Richard, either before or after Locke shows up with the compass in the 50s, attaining the "original" compass, giving that one to Locke in 2004, and retaining the one Locke gave him in the 50s.
Perhaps the compass is intentionally given as a clue that we are looking at time in the wrong way. What if time in this show is like a coil? If we look at the coil head on it looks like a circle with no beginning or end, but when you look at it from the side you realize that it isn't a single ring, but rather a series of connected rings that are slowly progressing in a certain direction... with a beginning and an end. So maybe the events depicted on the show have not just happened this one time, but are happening over and over again, slightly differently each time, making it slowly progress. At some point in the repeated cycle, a compass was created and was passed back in time into the next cycle, and thus got stuck in the repeat. That would make it appear, if you only look at just one cycle (much like looking at the coil head on), like the compass was a paradox. But once you raise the possibility that the cycle is slightly different each time, then the paradox disappears.
Tres, that's an interesting theory. I personally hope that that is not the case. In general I'm pretty agreeable to recursion in stories, and find it interesting. I just don't think I would be satisfied with that type of device in this story.
Though, it's worth pointing out the various Stephen King references that have been made over the course of the series. The Dark Tower series in particular has many similar attributes and your theory would fit in perfectly with that, especially the idea of the events repeating in time with no(or only minor) change, but with the hope and possibility for a large change to occur.
Like I said, i hope that's not the case. And I would point to a brief interchange between Jacob and Esau, that I find telling.
quote: Esau: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Your still trying to prove me wrong.
Jacob: You are wrong.
Esau: Am I? They come, fight. They corrupt. They destroy. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once, everything else is just progress.
I really do think this was a nod at the viewers as to what kind of story the creators were telling. I would argue that Jacob espouses the whatever happened, happened theory, though I'm sure some of you will disagree. But even if not, it would certainly imply there is no loop the characters are stuck in.
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Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.
The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.
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That is how I read Jacob's statement as well. The statement wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Esau: Am I? They come, fight. They corrupt. They destroy. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once, everything else is just progress.
This to me sounds like there is a loop.
If this is a loop, what role would Jacob and Esau play in all of this?
It wouldn't suprise me if Jacob and Esau have a wager of sorts going on regarding the soul of man. Jacob believes that man is inherently good, and Esau that man is inherently evil. Perhaps this is a judgement of man. I don't know what kind of beings Jacob and Esau are, whether they be gods, aliens, Jesus/Satan, or whatever, but it almost seems like they are setting it up for something like this.
Esau is worried because in this latest iteration of the time line Jacob will finally win their wager or argument. He finds a loophole to dispose of Jacob and in the process proves to him he was wrong.
Ben looks like a Judas, a follower that became angry with the person he was following due to jealousy.
The last episode of the seaon ended with the inverted colors, which I think could respresent a shift in power from Jacob to Esau. With Jacob gone and not able to keep Esau in check he becomes the primary power on the island, free to do as he pleases. Just as Jacob guided each person to the island at some point in time, Esau may now be the one to shape what happens.
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quote: Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.
Agreed. Which is why we're still having this conversation.
quote: The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.
So what resets the loop? Is it the nuke? Or will it be the series finale? will the series end with the crash of flight 815?
I think iterations are neat, but only in certain types of stories, for me this isn't one of them.
Geraine, i agree with what you said about Jacob and Esau's views of humanity. Though I wouldn't couch it in terms of good and evil. Rather, capable of redemption and being at peace, or greedy and corruptible.
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.
The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.
There was a Star Trek TNG like this.
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The thing with the Star Trek Episode however is that the characters slowly started catching on and they were finally able to free themselves of the loop. I haven't seen any indication of this yet. I guess they have 16 episodes to bring that into play, but it would seem a little rushed and out of place. It would make a great series finale however if they all discovered that they were stuck right at the end.
Ah who am I kidding. It may make for great TV, but it would be a HUGE cliffhanger with no resolution, and would make a lot of fans angry. It would be heralded as great TV, but the outrage would probably be worse than those Soprano's fans that got their cliffhanger ending.
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quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.
The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.
There was a Star Trek TNG like this.
All of Daybreak was like this.
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: Ah who am I kidding. It may make for great TV, but it would be a HUGE cliffhanger with no resolution, and would make a lot of fans angry. It would be heralded as great TV, but the outrage would probably be worse than those Soprano's fans that got their cliffhanger ending.
David Chase had a point though, with the last episode of The Sopranos. Who cares if the fans are angry? It would be over.
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quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.
The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.
There was a Star Trek TNG like this.
Not quite, the TNG episode was really different because at end of the loop, they pop back to the beginning with only shadow memories of it. Once they figure out they are looping, they presume they can change the loop if they can figure out what went wrong on the previous loops.
When the Losties are in the 1970s, they know they have moved back in time. They don't need to figure out they are part of a loop, they know they are in the loop. They need to figure out whether or not the loop can be changed.
In the Star Trek episode, its evident that the same conscious beings are being sent through the loop over and over again, which is why they have a shadow memory of it. There is not evidence, yet, that any of the people have actually been through the loop more than once, even though there may have been more than one loop.
Does that make any sense?
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quote: Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.
Agreed. Which is why we're still having this conversation.
quote: The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.
So what resets the loop? Is it the nuke? Or will it be the series finale? will the series end with the crash of flight 815?
I think iterations are neat, but only in certain types of stories, for me this isn't one of them.
Geraine, i agree with what you said about Jacob and Esau's views of humanity. Though I wouldn't couch it in terms of good and evil. Rather, capable of redemption and being at peace, or greedy and corruptible.
There is no reset of the loop. Or even really a loop itself, if you want to take Tres' spring theory more literally. There is merely an exit condition, based on the results of each loop. Esau thinks the exit condition can never be satisfied, Jacob disagrees.
I think the nuke could have created the conditions for the exit condition. This season will be that revelation, as well as dealing with all the side affects. Why assume that stopping the loop inherently makes things better?
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Geraine, i agree with what you said about Jacob and Esau's views of humanity. Though I wouldn't couch it in terms of good and evil. Rather, capable of redemption and being at peace, or greedy and corruptible.
Can't remember if I've mentioned this here, but my fiance is of the mind that Jacob and Esau are Chaos and Order. I forget which is which at the moment. *sheepish grin*
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: The thing with the Star Trek Episode however is that the characters slowly started catching on and they were finally able to free themselves of the loop. I haven't seen any indication of this yet. I guess they have 16 episodes to bring that into play, but it would seem a little rushed and out of place. It would make a great series finale however if they all discovered that they were stuck right at the end.
Ah who am I kidding. It may make for great TV, but it would be a HUGE cliffhanger with no resolution, and would make a lot of fans angry. It would be heralded as great TV, but the outrage would probably be worse than those Soprano's fans that got their cliffhanger ending.
I'd rather they didn't figure out the loop until it was broken... The whole meta-knowledge angle has been done to death, IMO.
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quote: Actually, I was thinking that exchange could very easily support a theory like Tres' "spring coil" theory.
Agreed. Which is why we're still having this conversation.
quote: The idea is that things are iterating, but that there are side effects that can carry over into a subsequent iteration that will eventually stop the looping. So while in some sense, things loop, each instance of the loop is different. I find that perfectly satisfying as a solution.
So what resets the loop? Is it the nuke? Or will it be the series finale? will the series end with the crash of flight 815?
I think iterations are neat, but only in certain types of stories, for me this isn't one of them.
Geraine, i agree with what you said about Jacob and Esau's views of humanity. Though I wouldn't couch it in terms of good and evil. Rather, capable of redemption and being at peace, or greedy and corruptible.
There is no reset of the loop. Or even really a loop itself, if you want to take Tres' spring theory more literally. There is merely an exit condition, based on the results of each loop. Esau thinks the exit condition can never be satisfied, Jacob disagrees.
I think the nuke could have created the conditions for the exit condition. This season will be that revelation, as well as dealing with all the side affects. Why assume that stopping the loop inherently makes things better?
maybe reset wasn't the best word to use. My question is in regards to what is the time span or set of events that the loop encompasses?
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None. Each "loop" is unique and distinct. Things seem to happen like they have to, but in reality there are small changes that make each instance unlike previous (or later) loops.
I think the "loops" could go back to when the island was created, or maybe harnessed.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: When the Losties are in the 1970s, they know they have moved back in time. They don't need to figure out they are part of a loop, they know they are in the loop. They need to figure out whether or not the loop can be changed.
In the Star Trek episode, its evident that the same conscious beings are being sent through the loop over and over again, which is why they have a shadow memory of it. There is not evidence, yet, that any of the people have actually been through the loop more than once, even though there may have been more than one loop.
Does that make any sense?
It makes sense. The only thing I would say though is that even though the Losties knew they traveled back in time, it would be part of the same reiteration of the loop they are stuck in. The time travel to the 70's is simply part of that reiteration, and could still be oblivious to the existence of the loop or coil.
One could argue Sawyer already saw evidence of a loop. While the Losties were time traveling, Sawyer stumbled upon Claire giving birth to Aaron. Any interaction may have changed the course of that time line. This would bring into play the possibility of different timelines, or iterations of the loop, existing.
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or back up the whatever happened, happened theory.
As viewers, we know that Sawyer never interacted with Claire and Kate while Claire was giving birth. And when he stumbled up on them, for whatever reason, through his own free will he decided not to interact with them. WE knew it wasn't going to happen because it DIDN'T happen. Sawyer doesn't know anything about that, but his free choice still led to the event occurring the way we knew it would!
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Yes, but Daniel stated later he believed they COULD change the future. So Sawyer didn't make himself known, that's fine, that current timeline doesn't divert at that point. That doesn't mean it couldn't divert at another point.
Here is an example, Sayid shot Ben in the past, and Sawyer and Kate saved him. But in Season 2 after they had captured Ben he showed no sign of recognizing Sawyer, Kate, or Sayid. This would indicate that in the timeline that we have seen throughout the seasons, Ben was never shot.
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I guess we have never seen Ben without his shirt on either, so we can't tell if he has a scar.
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And even if he did remember, I wouldn't put it past him to act (quite naturally) like he'd never seen them before.
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What if the various ghosts/hallucinations on the island are some kind message being sent from a previous loop.
Christian Shepherd's ghost is there, because he was on the island in a previous loop. Maybe he pulled Claire away to protect her from getting wiped out in the next iteration.
Maybe there are even two different kinds of messages, those from people who want to prevent certain changes and those who want to cause them.
[ January 15, 2010, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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quote:Originally posted by Traceria: And even if he did remember, I wouldn't put it past him to act (quite naturally) like he'd never seen them before.
It doesn't even seem that odd that he wouldn't remember them. It was over 30 years ago and he was a kid. If I ran into my 6th grade teacher today, and she not only hadn't age a day in 30 years she was a few year younger, I'm not confident I'd recognize her. I'd be more likely to have a nagging feeling I'd seen here somewhere before than remember her.
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Really? Your sixth grade teacher? Of all people, you see and observe your primary teacher more even than your parents. I think you'd remember. But anyway, these people were nowhere near as present in Ben's life during the Dharma times, so yeah, I can see him forgetting most of them- except perhaps for "Le Fleur," who was a big wig. Since he ended up recruiting Juliet later, it's safe to assume he probably recognized her and brought her to the island for a purpose related to his memory.
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You know, if I ran into two people on the street that looked just like my parents did in 1977, I'd be more likely to think, "Those people look surprisingly like my parents used to." than "Mom, Dad how did you get here?"
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Rabbit- I see your point, but surely it would turn over in your mind for more than a minute or two. And if you lived in a magical place where time travel was being researched, then you might leap to some interesting theories, if you were so inclined.
What I'm more interested in is how they are plotting all of these time intersections. Do you think they are doing it on a big poster board with time lines and events crisscrossing? Do you think that's how they wrote the thing out so as not to create inconsistencies? And what happens if they want to change something important, do they have to find ways of going back and changing time again to make their new ideas work? It's a pretty twisted puzzle as it is, so I would love to know how it's being conceived- I suppose we'll have to wait for the making-of after the show is done.
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Have you ever run into someone who remembers you but who you don't remember (or visa versa) . Have you ever run into someone whose face you remembered but you can't remember when and where you knew them?
Except for Sayid, we don't know how much Ben interacted with any of the losties before he was shot. He was a kid and they were adults so it wouldn't surprise me if their interactions were fairly minimal.
Time travel isn't the only weird thing about the island by far. Look at all the times the Losties brushed shoulders before they boarded flight 316. Ben could have know everything about the island's secrets and still not have suspect that they were time travelers rather than people he'd interacted with in one of his visits off island. Its not like we have any reason to believe he had ever met any other time travelers let alone interacted with them every day.
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Maybe it is just me, but I seem to remember an episode back in season 3 (a Juliette flashback episode) where someone comments that the reason that Ben pays so much attention to Juliette prior to the Oceanic crash is because Juliette reminds him of someone. I had assumed in the past that Juliette reminded him of the little girl that gave him the doll for his birthday, but perhaps it is because he remembers Juliette from the Dharma Initiative.
On a side note, has the show said anything further about that little girl since season 3?
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No, they haven't. But they've not said anything about a lot of things since they were first brought up! Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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If Ben DID remember anyone, you would think it would be Sayid. If someone shot you, I think you would remember that. Traumatic experiences like that are not easily forgotten.
Rabbit, I don't know if the "phantoms" that have appeared to certain people are of those from different timelines. I suppose they could be. I was under the impression that they were a product of the smoke monster/Esau. Mr. Ecko comes to mind. He followed his brother's ghost, who told him he was to be judged. He was then killed by the smoke monster. This leads me to believe the phantoms are all Esau attempting to find his "loophole" until he finally is able to obtain it through Locke and Ben.
I'm going to hate it if in the last episode we find out it was all just a dream. Evangelion was like that and I hated it >.<
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: If Ben DID remember anyone, you would think it would be Sayid. If someone shot you, I think you would remember that. Traumatic experiences like that are not easily forgotten.
I've already mentioned this, but we have no reason to distrust what Richard stated about Ben's ability to remember these events after he is taken to the Temple.
I do agree with you though about the smoke monster and the visions. We've been led multiple times to believe that the smoke monster is connected to the Island induced visions. Now that we are aware of the connection between Esau and the smoke monster, we are forced to question everything we thought about the nature of those interactions on the Island due to our understanding of Esau's purpose.
Worth mentioning, again, I wouldn't call Esau an evil character. Similarly to how Widmore and Ben both truly seem to have the Island's best interests in mind, those interests are also wrapped around a selfish need to be in control, which sets them up in opposition to each other. Similarly, I think Esau DOES have the Island's interests in mind, and seems to think that Jacob is a negative influence on the Island, and will do whatever is necessary to remove Jacob while protecting the Island.
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While its true that Richard said that Ben would forget everything that happened, it seemed to me that Richard was only referring to the recent occurences such as Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid arriving. I highly doubt that he would forget the past three years that Sawyer, Juliette, Miles and Jin have lived in the Dharma village.
Granted a kid of about 12 or 13 won't remember everyone in the Dharma Initiative, but I bet there is a strong possibility that he would remember at least one of them.
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good point Hume, and as we've been discussing, it's up in the air how much contact he had with the other losties during those three years. Your suggestion in regards to Juliet above is a good one, and hopefully we'll find out some more about that(i.e.- get some more information about what happened to is childhood friend).
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But even if not, it would certainly imply there is no loop the characters are stuck in.
