posted
When we first saw the black rock, at the end of last season, it was daylight and calm seas. But in this last episode, the black rock shipwrecks in a giant storm at night. It seems rather incongruous to me. I suppose the boat might have been further out than it looked, waited there until night fell and a storm came up but it still seems like a stretch. It was clever device to explain why the boat was so far inland and how the statue was destroyed in one blow, but it really seemed like it was something they just came up with and decided to use even though it didn't match up with last season.
Any way you slice it, there isn't any clear reason why a boat headed from the Canary islands to the new world, would have been anywhere in the Pacific Ocean to begin with. It would have made so much more sense if the boat had been a convict ship heading to Australia, unless of course the Island was in the Atlantic in 1867 rather than the Pacific.
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posted
After watching the episode again, I am convinced Esau had taken the form of Richard's wife as an attempt to play him.
Esau turns into Richards wife, tells him they are in hell. She goes up, screams, then is gone. Then Esau comes in and tells him that Jacob took her. He then tells Richard he should go kill Jacob.
We know Esau can change forms, as he appeared to numerous characters already. Mr. Ecko saw his brother and was judged and killed. Esau also took the form of Alex and told Ben to follow Flocke.
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quote:1) Why did Smokey kill every, but leave Richard? Did he have to? Was their a rule, some barriers in place? If the first mate hadn't stabbed the other slaves, would they have been spared too?
2) Why did Jacob bring the ship if the only survivor was Richard, whom Jacob didn't seem to have any plans for until he met him? Everyone else Died!
3) Why is Smokey "allowed" to kill some, and not others? If he killed the "sinful" slaveship crew, why did he also (in the first season) kill the apparently blameless pilot of 815 and a handful of the other castaways?
4) If Smokey could have killed Richard, but didn't, why? If he planned to mess with him all along, why didn't he pull a longer con? More time getting Richard to trust him might have allowed for more fight in Richard during the confrontation with the "Devil".
I think the answer to all of these is that this particular incident was a major character development point for both Jacob and the Man in Black.
In the case of the MiB, this is the first time he attempted to kill Jacob it seems. It is possible he didn't really think it through extensively, and believed he could make it happen simply by only allowing one person to live and using that one person to kill Jacob. Only after this fails, and Jacob points out that someone will take his place when he dies, that the MiB realizes that he's going to need a much better, much more complicated plan.
In the case of Jacob, it seems like he didn't realize the need to make "plans" for the people he brought to the island until Richard points out that if Jacob doesn't interfere, the MiB will. It is at that particular moment that Jacob changes his way of thinking, and decides to come up with a plan rather than simply leaving the people to their own devices to choose good over evil. And it is at that point that the entire plan involving all the Others, and the Dharma Initiative, and the Losties, and the Candidates really begins.
I see the moment Richard tries to kill Jacob and asks that question as the moment the island goes from a static state of balance between good and evil to a dynamic battle with both sides aiming for an endgame. Prior to Richard arriving, both Jacob and the MiB seem frustrated at the stalemate of things. Compare that to the moment of Jacob's death, when both of them seem to think they have almost accomplished their respective goals.
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: I see the moment Richard tries to kill Jacob and asks that question as the moment the island goes from a static state of balance between good and evil to a dynamic battle with both sides aiming for an endgame.
Does no one remember the Shadow War from Babylon 5?
From beginning to end, the show has been about these characters (and the audience) being lied to and told next to nothing and being manipulated. So of course Jacob and the other guy are doing the same thing. We've seen it happen already! Jacob lied to Hurley to get Jack to the lighthouse, there are probably more examples I can't think of. Why on earth would anyone take anything any of these characters say at face value?
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I finally watched the Richard Alpert episode last night. I thought we were done w/ flashbacks.
The more I watch the more I think the candidates are in line for a crappy job. Who would want to be Jacob? Can you imagine any kind of ending where any of them end up taking on Jacob's role of keeping MiB trapped on the island? Is he gonna get defeated somehow at the end so it's not necessary?
It's not like there's no evil in the world w/o MiB at large. Of course, as some of you have said, it hasn't been proven that he is evil and Jacob is/was good or that Jacob has been telling the truth.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: When we first saw the black rock, at the end of last season, it was daylight and calm seas. But in this last episode, the black rock shipwrecks in a giant storm at night. It seems rather incongruous to me. I suppose the boat might have been further out than it looked, waited there until night fell and a storm came up but it still seems like a stretch. It was clever device to explain why the boat was so far inland and how the statue was destroyed in one blow, but it really seemed like it was something they just came up with and decided to use even though it didn't match up with last season.
Any way you slice it, there isn't any clear reason why a boat headed from the Canary islands to the new world, would have been anywhere in the Pacific Ocean to begin with. It would have made so much more sense if the boat had been a convict ship heading to Australia, unless of course the Island was in the Atlantic in 1867 rather than the Pacific.
Ah, but are we sure that was the Blackrock? Jacob told Richard that he has brought others to the island before Richard, it may be possible that this was another boat. I don't remember seeing the back of the boat, nor the name "Blackrock" on it.
Or to put another twist on it...Could that have been our first glimpse of the alt-time lone?
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quote:1) Why did Smokey kill every, but leave Richard? Did he have to? Was their a rule, some barriers in place? If the first mate hadn't stabbed the other slaves, would they have been spared too?
2) Why did Jacob bring the ship if the only survivor was Richard, whom Jacob didn't seem to have any plans for until he met him? Everyone else Died!
3) Why is Smokey "allowed" to kill some, and not others? If he killed the "sinful" slaveship crew, why did he also (in the first season) kill the apparently blameless pilot of 815 and a handful of the other castaways?
4) If Smokey could have killed Richard, but didn't, why? If he planned to mess with him all along, why didn't he pull a longer con? More time getting Richard to trust him might have allowed for more fight in Richard during the confrontation with the "Devil".
I think the answer to all of these is that this particular incident was a major character development point for both Jacob and the Man in Black.
In the case of the MiB, this is the first time he attempted to kill Jacob it seems. It is possible he didn't really think it through extensively, and believed he could make it happen simply by only allowing one person to live and using that one person to kill Jacob. Only after this fails, and Jacob points out that someone will take his place when he dies, that the MiB realizes that he's going to need a much better, much more complicated plan.
In the case of Jacob, it seems like he didn't realize the need to make "plans" for the people he brought to the island until Richard points out that if Jacob doesn't interfere, the MiB will. It is at that particular moment that Jacob changes his way of thinking, and decides to come up with a plan rather than simply leaving the people to their own devices to choose good over evil. And it is at that point that the entire plan involving all the Others, and the Dharma Initiative, and the Losties, and the Candidates really begins.
I see the moment Richard tries to kill Jacob and asks that question as the moment the island goes from a static state of balance between good and evil to a dynamic battle with both sides aiming for an endgame. Prior to Richard arriving, both Jacob and the MiB seem frustrated at the stalemate of things. Compare that to the moment of Jacob's death, when both of them seem to think they have almost accomplished their respective goals.
I think Tres was absolutely spot on with this assessment.
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posted
It was an average episode. Nothing compared to last week.
I'm happy Desmond will be back next week though. I've missed him. Now that we have him back, I can now hope that Faraday will return.
I read that next week will be a Jacob/Esau centric episode, complete with flashbacks and their back story! Jacob has a mother, and the smoke monster is somewhat explained.
There are only 6 episodes left and I have no idea how they are going to end it. If they keep doing these alt time lines I fear there will not be enough show left to explain a thing.
Next week should answer some things about Jacob and Esau, then the week after is an episode called "Everybody Loves Hugo." I guess we get to see Hurley's alt time line. Here's hoping that he is happily married to Libby.
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quote:Or to put another twist on it...Could that have been our first glimpse of the alt-time lone?
That seems highly unlikely since we know the Dharma initiative existed on the island and New Otherton was built on the alt time line.
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posted
I agree with Geraine. This was not the greatest episode; there was't much plot development. And I still do not understand the point of the alt lines.
Do those spoilers come from DarkUFO?
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*glad I accidentally completely skipped the post with spoiilers*
I really was dissappointed with the past episode. I generally really like Jin/Sun episodes, and I don't mean a bit of character development over plot development. But nothing they ntroduced in that episode was resloved at all! I don't need every question answered, I just want an episode to have a storyline to follow. Not build up for a future episode to possibley answer or ignore what happened. I do really like any Keemy moment though, and there were a few lines that made me laugh. (Illana not believing Ben and the standard sarcastic remarks from Miles/Sawyer) I would like a spin off cop show with those two as partners. Let's hope that this was the last silly build up episode of the show. I hate build up episodes more than the filler episodes of season 3.
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I'm liking that this episode hinted that they might get back to explaining some of the electromagnetic weirdness on the island. I'm thinking Widmore has some sort of plan involving time-travel or moving the island that requires Desmond, perhaps because of his unique time-jumping qualities. So even though Desmond was perfectly happy with Penny off the island, they kidnapped him to use him. Maybe it will help explain why pushing the button was so important? Or maybe it could even involve Desmond jumping back and forth from alt-time?
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I was thinking something similar Tres. That Widmore wants to put Desmond together with the pockets of electromagnetism for some reason, and that this might cause Desmond to time line jump.
They also hinted at another theme this season that has been prevalent. Mirrors. Lots of characters in altTime have spent inordinate amounts of time looking at themselves curiously in a mirror. Like what they're seeing isn't right. Coupled with Sun's aphasia on Island at roughly the same time, I'm thinking that it's not JUST a really cheap plot device by Lost, but a hint at the timelines spilling over and into each other(i.e. - Sun doesn't know english in altTime, and forgets it partially on the Island).
I'm so glad Desmond is back, I hope he's not wasted.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Geraine, spoiler warnings please.
What did I spoil? If you look at TV guide or your DVR you can see the episode titles and the synopsis of the next episode. Saying an episode is going to be centric to a character is hardly a spoiler...
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: But since next weeks episode is titled "Dr Linus", we may have to wait a few more weeks for the answer.
Can I request spoiler alerts on the names of titles of episodes not yet aired? It's thrilling to be completely spoiler free (avoiding promos and titles) and I suggest everyone else do the same who have the self control and think it would be fun. Knowing less going into each episode of the final season ensures more enjoyment during discoveries possibley revealed. *I forgive you guys for letting me know this one title without an alert since I never asked before*
I guess I should have put a spoiler alert on my own post!
Geraine, While I agree with you that episode titles that are widely available and hardly real spoilers, Tuna has asked that we label them as spoilers.
Personally, I think Tuna's request is a bit over the top but its easy enough to comply with once you know how he feels. I suspect you didn't see this original exchange, so you really couldn't be expected to know. Thats the real problem with the request in the first place. It isn't reasonable to expect that everyone who participates in this thread will have either read the exchange or share Tuna's definition of what constitutes a spoiler.
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Yes, there was Tuna's request about episode titles, but also, I didn't realize they had released synopses talking about the kind of detail you contained in your post Geraine. The preview after the episode hinted at nothing of the sort.
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quote:Originally posted by swbarnes2: Why on earth would anyone take anything any of these characters say at face value?
While I think a lot of what they say should be taken with a grain of salt, I think at least their conversations with one another are majority above board.
We were just watching the end of the Richard episode, and I have to wonder if what Hurley says after Richard's wife leaves really originated from her. I love Hurley, but he could have said the spiel about stopping the man in black and going to hell on Jacob's orders. Just maybe, anyhow.
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This has been one of my favorite episodes so far. The first signs of the combining of Desmond's two selves.
That and Charlie, Desmond, and Faraday(I guess Daniel now) in one episode, all my favorite characters!
I also would like to hypothesize that charlie saw Claire is his death vision.
I thought it was cool how Desmond kind of took up the role of trying to keep Charlie alive again. And the episodes not even over!
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Excellent stuff. I remember someone here was hoping Faraday would be a musician as a grown up in Alt-World.
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You know, I think at this point we can definitively say that calling it flash sideways or altTime isn't accurate. Part of me wants to call it Matrix Time, but I guess for this post I'll continue to call it altTime!
I loved every bit of this episode. We got a Desmond episode, and Penny, and Ms. Hawking(or Mrs. Widmore) who even at one point said something along the lines of "whatever happened, happened", and we had Charlie. It was like a big cast reunion!
We also got so much great exposition that confirmed what a lot of us have been thinking about the nature of altTime. The idea that the nuke caused altTime really WAS just a red herring. The nuke had nothing to do with altTime and that altTime is the result of things happening on the Island right now. I don't think the "altTime as epilogue" theory will turn out right either. Given some of the stuff that happened this week I think it's much more likely that while the events happening on Island now lead up to altTime, that altTime and realTime will merge once again before the season ends. I'm guessing it will yet again come down to our main characters having to make some sort of choice. Probably after Desmond starts bringing them all together and showing them the true nature of things.
After the Richard episode I talked about my worries regarding altTime.
quote:If the Island is a cork for holding in pure evil, and in altTime we know that the Island is buried under water, does that meant that altTime is a universe where evil has escaped and was let loose on the world? Could it be that the Losties end up making some sort of deal with Esau to live in this universe, free of Jacob's interferences in their lives?
I'm thinking this is very much something that is going in altTime. I think either they all made a choice to be here, and this is some sort of Esau induced mass vision, or Esau has trapped them all here. I'm speculating that this has something to do with his freedom. Esau doesn't seem to be able to kill these people because of the rules the visage of the little boy reminded him about. But by imprisoning them in this fake reality, he can take away their ability to threaten his freedom as candidates and protectors of the Island. Maybe he just needs to wait out their deaths of natural causes in fakeTime(how's that?) and then he's fully free? Maybe they really are all sitting in chairs with jack's in the back of their necks, a la Matrix style. I really have no idea how the mechanism of fakeReality will end up working, but I really do think it's either a deal struck with Esau, or something forced on them by Esau.
I said from the beginning that I was withholding judgment on altTime till we understood its nature better. Well, I can finally say I love everything about this show again. The idea that Whatever Happened, DIDN'T Happen was just too awful for me to stand. I was so happy tonight.
That's all for now. I could probably keep writing for pages after tonight!
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posted
Daniel's scenario involved setting off a bomb to reset a time-line. Then he says he thinks he already did so. So why do you think the nuke had nothing to do with anything anymore?
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well, to be fair, I never thought the nuke had anything to do with anything(besides sending the Losties back to 2007), I just didn't have an alternate explanation.
I didn't get that from Daniel and Desmond's conversation at all. Daniel seems to remember something about a nuke, and seemed to think that this nuke and his actions had something to do with this fake reality they're all in. But I don't remember him saying that his setting off a bomb reset any time lines or anything like that. Remember, they're all getting these flashes of their true reality, Faraday is just grasping at straws as much as anyone else, trying to figure out what's going on. He may simply be wrong about what caused what. But again, I didn't get that from the conversation. I'm probably going to rewatch this episode though since so much happened, so I'll pay closer attention to that convo next time.
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posted
It was a phenomenal episode. I hadn't realized how much I'd missed Daniel, Charlie, and Desmond until I saw them all together again, being awesome and crazy. It's funny how much Desmond is NOT Desmond unless he's lovin' him some Penny. Desmond-as-Widmore-lackey was really disconcerting. When Eloise sounded off about him finally having everything he wanted I was just about screaming at the TV. A very satisfying episode, all around.
I guess I'm mis-remembering the interaction, but I left with the impression that Daniel was insinuating he felt things had happened differently "before" or "elsewhere" for them -- and that something "big" could serve to alter these set existences...except that then he said he thought he "already did" do something big to change things. Resetting a time-line was just a poor choice of words on my part...I definitely got the sense that Daniel felt there was a "before" and a "now" -- whether those two were happening concurrently or consecutively I wasn't sure. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Okay, Penny was Penny Milton. So who is the Milton that's her mother? That might be significant.
It looks to me like Esau is stuck underwater (along with Jacob) in the Alt-Timeline. Which means that Jacob can't meddle with the lives of our Losties, and Esau simply can't escape, because he can't find anyone to help him (Arthur Curry? Mark Harris? Nemo?). Maybe that's why things are good.
But it looks like it's fragile. Not meant to be. Very sad.
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I would disagree Lisa. Things are only good on the surface, and that's probably because this reality is really a facade. I'm guessing it will start crumbling more and more with each new episode.
Have I talked about the mirror symbolism in this thread yet? Almost every episode some character looks at themselves in a mirror in altTime in an odd way. Each time like something is wrong, or something doesn't belong. Sawyer even broke his mirror. I think those are moments of these characters catching a glimpse of the true nature of things, or at least realizing the wrongness of this one.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: You know, I think at this point we can definitively say that calling it flash sideways or altTime isn't accurate. Part of me wants to call it Matrix Time, but I guess for this post I'll continue to call it altTime!
I loved every bit of this episode. We got a Desmond episode, and Penny, and Ms. Hawking(or Mrs. Widmore) who even at one point said something along the lines of "whatever happened, happened", and we had Charlie. It was like a big cast reunion!
We also got so much great exposition that confirmed what a lot of us have been thinking about the nature of altTime. The idea that the nuke caused altTime really WAS just a red herring. The nuke had nothing to do with altTime and that altTime is the result of things happening on the Island right now.
Wow Strider, I don't see how you could have gotten any of that from this episode. Since the start of the season, we've had lots of clues that there was some sort of bleed over from the original time-line into the alt-time. This episode confirms that. It also confirms the speculation that this bleed over would become increasingly important. But if anything, this episode confirms that the alt-time line was in fact caused by the nuclear blast.
We have Dan in the past saying setting off the bomb will shift the time line, we have an alt time line with some strange connection to the original time line and we have Dan in the alt time line speculating that this entire time-line happened because he set off a nuclear bomb. What part of the that confirms that the bomb was a red herring? To me it seems exactly the opposite. Granted I've always believed the bomb was important, but you haven't given me any sound reason at all to believe this episode confirmed the bombs irrelevance.
As I said before, we've had clues since the season opened that the Losties in the alt-timeline have some sort of buried memory of the original timeline and this confirms that. But it still gave no explanation of what the alt-timeline is or how and why it is connected to the original except that it was very strongly implied that the nuclear blast, electro-magnetic fields and trauma were strongly connected to the things that are happening.
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posted
Oh, I should add that there has been speculation that Desmond was/would be able to "hop" back and forth between the time lines. There was some suggestion in this episode that this is happening and that exposure to strong magnetic fields triggers it. I think there is a pretty good chance that Widmore's plan is to control this phenomenon in order to communicate between the two time lines.
I also expect to see a merger of the two time lines by the end of the show and agree that the Losties are going to have to make some difficult choices and sacrifices. But I'm really curious about how that will happen because, at this point, alt-time is 3 years behind.
Personally, I think it will be really hokie if the alt-time line turns out to be some sort of fancy matrix style illusion to show the losties how their lives might have been without Jacob. It would trivialize any choices our Losties will ultimately make if its all destiny and there are no real alternatives.
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What if they are given the choice to stay there or not? To stay in this time where they "changed" things or to live in the reality where things happened the way they did. What if they decide to stay in the Matrix as it were? Is that still hokie and trivializing their choices? What if they get to choose their own destiny?
The only difference is that it's not really a universe where things were "changed" but one created by Esau for them.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: What if they are given the choice to stay there or not? To stay in this time where they "changed" things or to live in the reality where things happened the way they did. What if they decide to stay in the Matrix as it were? Is that still hokie and trivializing their choices? What if they get to choose their own destiny?
If the alt-time line is just an elaborate illusion and they are given a choice between life in the illusion and living in reality then yes I would consider it hokie. That may be what they have in store, but if they do, I'm very unlikely to be satisfied.
quote:The only difference is that it's not really a universe where things were "changed" but one created by Esau for them.
That's a pretty huge difference, at least from my perspective. The matrix world only works as long as people believe its real. Once they've recognized that its an illusion, there is no going back. Its not a viable choice any more.
If you knew that your job, your home, most of the people you interacted with and the things you did were just an elaborate video game, how long could you keep living the way you do?
Turn it the other way, what if it turns out that the island is the matrix, that nothing that happened on the island was real. Wouldn't you consider that hokie? Its not that those types of solutions always make for hokie stories so much as that in the context of this particular story, after 5+ years of build up, that would seem like a cheap bailout.
I feel the same way about the alt time line. Free will vs. destiny has been a central question in this show since its inception. An answer that boils down to nothing you do makes a difference but demi-gods can create the illusion that you change things -- well thats lame.
[ April 07, 2010, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: Excellent stuff. I remember someone here was hoping Faraday would be a musician as a grown up in Alt-World.
I think I was the one who explicitly stated that I wanted him to be a musician in the alt time line.Every episode I have been saying to my girlfriend that this has to be the one he comes back in. I said a few weeks ago "My only hope for the upcoming episode is that Faraday is a musician in the flash-sideways. " It took a few but I got my wish.
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posted
When Eloise spoke to Desmond I truly believe she knew what was going on. She almost had a look of fear or reluctance on her face when Desmond was asking about Penny.
Do you think this is the reality or life that Esau has promised everyone so far? Esau asked Sayid if he wanted to see Nadia again, it happened. He told Claire she would be with her son, and it looks like that will happen too.
Perhaps Esau is the one that actually creates the alternate reality, and Eloise knows this. If the losties find out that their lives should have been a different way and discover the truth, Esau may come after them.
I think it may be important to note that Charlie and Desmond both had visions of the girls they fall in love with in the alt time line, but Daniel actually saw Charlotte, though later that night he wrote the formula.
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If the two timelines truly did split when the bomb went off, Eloise would know what was going on because she was in on the bomb plot and had seen Faraday's journal. (What ended up happening to that journal anyway? Did Eloise end up with it, and is that why she can figure out so many things that will happen before they happen?)
It's possible she believes the entire plan had worked, and that her sacrifice of her son had been worth it, and doesn't want memories from the past to come back and ruin the fruits of that sacrifice. From her perspective, she may be thinking "Oh no, is Desmond going to come in and undo everything?"
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quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: Excellent stuff. I remember someone here was hoping Faraday would be a musician as a grown up in Alt-World.
I think I was the one who explicitly stated that I wanted him to be a musician in the alt time line.Every episode I have been saying to my girlfriend that this has to be the one he comes back in. I said a few weeks ago "My only hope for the upcoming episode is that Faraday is a musician in the flash-sideways. " It took a few but I got my wish.
I think several of us have made a similar comment.
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posted
Well, we all agree this episode was awesome. I'm amused at the huge difference in ways we're interpreting it though. Honestly Strider I have no idea how you got "Esau matrix time." That is not remotely implied here.
quote:It's possible she believes the entire plan had worked, and that her sacrifice of her son had been worth it, and doesn't want memories from the past to come back and ruin the fruits of that sacrifice. From her perspective, she may be thinking "Oh no, is Desmond going to come in and undo everything?"
I'm in this general camp. I think the bomb caused alt-time, but it was more than just the bomb. I think Eloise had several pieces of a plan in motion to create a "perfect" altTime, and that the bomb was part of that plan. I love this theory because it explains how people keep meeting in the alternate universe. It's not just World minus Island, it's a carefully crafted world, and each "variable" (i.e. numbers i.e. character) must do certain things to maintain the perfection. I thin Tres is spot on that Desmond is liable to screw that up and Eloise is freaking out about it.
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quote:I said from the beginning that I was withholding judgment on altTime till we understood its nature better. Well, I can finally say I love everything about this show again. The idea that Whatever Happened, DIDN'T Happen was just too awful for me to stand. I was so happy tonight.
Strider, I think you are seriously twisting what happened in this episode because "The idea that Whatever Happened, DIDN'T Happen was just too awful for me to stand." I warned you before the season started that being so emotionally devoted to any particular theory would ultimately lead to disappointment.
Let them tell the story, don't try to twist things to fit the story you would have told.
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posted
Eloise is still a big mystery. She is definitely a manipulator and she definitely has some sixth sense about what's going on. Remember her manipulating Desmond in the episode where he jumps back to the past. She knew how things would happen and told Desmond about time "correcting" itself. Wasn't her picture on the desk in the monastery or somewhere?
This reminds me of a question that's been nagging me. Have they ever told us why Desmond was in jail and what he did to be dishonorably discharged from the armed services?
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actually Rabbit, it'd be more accurate to say that I'm intellectually invested in "whatever happened, happened". But I think you're just as invested in your theory.
We are all guilty of some selection bias in what parts we pay more attention to. I see last night's episode, coupled with the many hints along the way, and I hear Eloise say something like "whatever happened, happened" and I interpret it one way. You see a conversation between Desmond and Faraday and interpret it as Faraday saying he caused this alternate time by setting off a nuke. I see it as Faraday struggling to put the pieces together and all he knows is that some nuke was involved, and here he is. I see it as the creators throwing you off the scent.
Here's the way I see it. There have been questions from the very beginning as to the nature of altTime. How exactly can one event with a nuke create two separate time lines? Why is the Island buried under water? Why do characters have these weird senses of deja-vu. Why doesn't Jack remember getting his appendix out? I don't think that "the nuke created an alternate time line" is a very satisfying answer to those questions. That's when many people, not just me, started theorizing that maybe altTime isn't really a parallel time line, but is in fact some sort of epilogue to the story. This could explain some of the weird differences and elements, for instance, the cut on Jack's neck at the beginning of the season.
Then more stuff started happening. Each character started going through an interesting arc. Hugo was lucky, Locke was happy, Jack developed a good relationship with his son, etc...and it made some of us think yet again, that the importance of altTime was not as simple as a parallel time line.
Then some people started noticing the mirror connections. Lots of characters looking at themselves in a mirror like what they see on the other side is wrong in some way. We now know that this must have been hints of them realizing subconsciously that they don't belong here.
After the Richard episode I started thinking about the nature of the Island as a cork and what it meant that the Island was submerged in altTime. That's when i posted the theory that maybe the events on Island will result in altTime, and it will come about as some sort of deal the Losties make with Esau. He will give them existence in this universe where they never came to the Island and are free from Jacob's influence, in exchange for letting Esau be free.
For the last few weeks I've also been thinking about Phillip K. Dick and his connection to Lost. Lost has referenced as least one PKD book throughout the series. And anyone familiar with PKD and his stories should immediately see the connection here. PKD believed, like for real believed, that reality was an illusion. That we really existed in the time of Jesus, and all of this year 2000 world around was an elaborate hallucination, a veil, meant to keep us from seeing the true world around us. This was also a theme in some of his stories, where the characters realize that the reality that they think is real is just a facade, a mass hallucination.*
These connections got me to thinking about whether there was something like this going on with altTime. And I started putting that together with all the other stuff I talked about above. Then this week happens and you have characters like Charlie talking about how none of this is real. You have Eloise say something like "what happened, happened", do you really think that's just a mistake or not important?
Anyway Rabbit, even I turn out to be wrong, I won't be as disappointed as you think I will. And I still will think last night's episode was awesome.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: For the last few weeks I've also been thinking about Phillip K. Dick and his connection to Lost. Lost has referenced as least one PKD book throughout the series. And anyone familiar with PKD and his stories should immediately see the connection here. PKD believed, like for real believed, that reality was an illusion. That we really existed in the time of Jesus, and all of this year 2000 world around was an elaborate hallucination, a veil, meant to keep us from seeing the true world around us. This was also a theme in some of his stories, where the characters realize that the reality that they think is real is just a facade, a mass hallucination.*
I thought of Ubik back in the first season, but it doesn't seem feasable.
Did he really seriously believe that? Even on the few days that he wasn't stoned?
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quote: Do you think this is the reality or life that Esau has promised everyone so far? Esau asked Sayid if he wanted to see Nadia again, it happened. He told Claire she would be with her son, and it looks like that will happen too.
Perhaps Esau is the one that actually creates the alternate reality, and Eloise knows this. If the losties find out that their lives should have been a different way and discover the truth, Esau may come after them.
Yes Geraine, this is roughly what I was saying above. Though I'm struggling a bit to figure out exactly how and why Eloise would be in on a plan with Esau.
Tres, that's an interesting analysis about Eloise. That her sacrifice was part of a greater plan to bring them back together in this alternate reality. But I feel it begs the question, why not just never send him to the Island in the first place, and you get the same result? But I do agree in general, Eloise is certainly threatened by Desmond's knowledge of things and his ability to mess up this "perfect" life she has for herself.
quote:I love this theory because it explains how people keep meeting in the alternate universe. It's not just World minus Island, it's a carefully crafted world, and each "variable" (i.e. numbers i.e. character) must do certain things to maintain the perfection.
I was also thinking about all the connections recently and thought that if something like my theory ends up being right it could explain all the connections by way of having this alternate reality be sort of a snow globe type universe.
Rabbit, no, they've never explicitly stated what got Desmond in jail. I thought it might have something to do with him leaving and going to see Penny during The Constant episode, but I have no idea really.
I've always wondered whether that was REALLY Eloise in Desmond's time jumping episode. Did he really travel in time or was that an Island induced vision? Was Eloise really there, or was that the Island speaking through her? Same with this current episode. Was that really her? Assuming it was, her powers/abilities rival anything we've seen from Desmond.
To answer your question from above, yes, if the Island turned out to be a matrix style hallucination I'd think it was hokey, but I don't think the same thing about altTime, mostly because I don't have five seasons invested in altTime.
I disagree with your statement that this would make it so that it "boils down to nothing you do makes a difference but demi-gods can create the illusion that you change things". Maybe i'm more at peace with this because I don't believe in the concept of free will anyway, and yet still value and find meaning in life. But I also see no problem with the idea of free will existing within a deterministic setting. Those characters all made many free choices, and their choices obviously had a real "affect" on the world and directed the events happening in a certain direction. But couldn't it be possible that the creators chose to espouse a theory of time travel where things can't be "changed"? Not a Back to the Future theory of time travel, but a Time Traveler's Wife theory of time travel? Where even though all the choices and acts done by the characters were free, because time travel was thrown into the mix, their free actions were already part of a time line that we knew had to work out one way and only one way. Sure, I may be wrong, but I don't think I'm stretching things to fit my preconceived notions more than anyone else here.
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quote:But couldn't it be possible that the creators chose to espouse a theory of time travel where things can't be "changed"? Not a Back to the Future theory of time travel, but a Time Traveler's Wife theory of time travel? Where even though all the choices and acts done by the characters were free, because time travel was thrown into the mix, their free actions were already part of a time line that we knew had to work out one way and only one way. Sure, I may be wrong, but I don't think I'm stretching things to fit my preconceived notions more than anyone else here.
Its certainly possible, but it begs a number of questions. If the the creators espouse the "what ever happened, happened" theory of time travel, then why did they introduce the idea that the bomb could change what happened? Why did they then proceed to show us an alternate reality where "What happened, didn't happen?" Why do they have a character, Desmond, to whom, we are told, the rule "whatever happened, happened" does not apply? The only answer you've come up with so far is that its all a reuse to throw us off track. If that is the answer, then its simply bad story telling to invest that much time in something that's ultimately a just a red herring. Which is why I keep saying its hokie and I'll be disappointed if it turns out that way.
I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that the authors have a better answer to those questions than you or I can come up with even though they espouse the what ever happened happened theory. I'm just saying that if that's what their aiming for, I can't see how they will acheive it.
I strongly suspect that there is a lot more which influenced the alt time line than the bomb alone, but they've put way too much time into it for the bomb not to be relevant.
quote:Sure, I may be wrong, but I don't think I'm stretching things to fit my preconceived notions more than anyone else here.
All I can say is that no one else who has posted here saw this last episode in the same light you did. In fact, you had to completely ignore a pivital conversation to even begin to think it the episode confirmed that the bomb was irrelevant. That exchange between Daniel and Desmond at a minimum kept the bomb changed the timeline theory in play. Of course if you believe Daniel was wrong in the original time line, you will likely suspect he's wrong in this time line as well so the question hasn't been resoundingly answered but that conversation pointed in exactly the opposite direction of your conclusion.
Furthermore, there was nothing whatsoever in the episode to suggest that Esau had anything to do with the alt-time or that some sort of "matrix" was in play.
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posted
If the bomb doesn't matter, why do the memories of the original IslandTimeTraveling!Losties hinge around that incident? What happens after the bomb that sends them back to the present, if it's not splitting time-lines?
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Desmond-as-Widmore-lackey was really disconcerting. When Eloise sounded off about him finally having everything he wanted I was just about screaming at the TV. A very satisfying episode, all around.
