Keep in mind that he was only on the island for 100 days before he was "rescued."
During that time he kept a large supply of food hidden that he obtained from the Swan station. He finally destroyed it all with Libby's help. A few weeks later he went back to the US and probably kept up his eating habits until he returned to the island.
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I've been rewaching Lost recently and just watched The Other Woman. Someone earlier in the thread speculated about whether the scene that mentioned that Juliet reminded Ben of "her" was actually referring to a time jumping Juliet from Ben's childhood. After a re-watch I doubt this is the case. It was Goodwin's wife Harper who mentions this, and I seriously doubt she would have any knowledge or memory of Juliet in Dharma time. I think it's much more likely that Harper was referring to Annie as we all originally thought. The question remains...what happened to Annie?
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posted
Ben killed her. Or... her parents ran away from the Dharma Initiative, and changed their last name to Burke. And Annie's name to Juliette.
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Rewatching season one. Had totally forgotten about the hairbrush mystery Claire explains at the start of "White Rabbit." Of all the suitcases she searched through, why did no one pack a hairbrush? Was it because of Dharma? Jacob? The smoke monster?
I want answers, dagnabit.
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posted
doc, they answered that in one of the online mystery puzzles. After you decoded a few anagrams, went to a special webpage, called a secret phone number, and set your little Orphan Annie decoder ring to the correct setting, you find out that The Others real purpose on the Island is to collect hairbrushes. It's convoluted, but it's all tied into ancient Egyptian prophecies.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: doc, they answered that in one of the online mystery puzzles. After you decoded a few anagrams, went to a special webpage, called a secret phone number, and set your little Orphan Annie decoder ring to the correct setting, you find out that The Others real purpose on the Island is to collect hairbrushes. It's convoluted, but it's all tied into ancient Egyptian prophecies.
Please tell me this doesn't mean they are going to start playing childrens card games. Posts: 856 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Hey everyone, below is an exploration of the nature of Jacob and his enemy. Building off of all the information we’ve been given over the years, but mostly from the new information we gained from the season 5 finale, and how it changes our understanding of Jacob and his actions. Warning…this is a LONG post, sorry if that bothers anyone, it’s something I wrote up for a Lost email group I have.
Jacob and Esau
In last year’s season finale we finally meet Jacob! And it turns out he is an actual person (at least of some sort). And that Jacob has an enemy, who we have been calling Esau. Jacob and Esau have been the long awaited personification of something we’ve been told since the very beginning of this series. In the pilot episode way back in season 1, Locke is explaining backgammon to Walt and says, “Two players. Two sides. One is light, one is dark.” Jacob and Esau even wear a white shirt and a black shirt, respectively, to drive this point home.
Right away we're introduced to yet a higher level of the game that is being played. There were immediate parallels with Ben and Widmore with Esau wanting to kill Jacob, but needing to find a loophole. Where did Jacob and Esau come from? How long have they been there? How is it they have the powers that they do? What are the rules they follow? I'll be seriously surprised if all these questions are answered. Here are some things we do know though. Take a look at the conversation they have:
Esau: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. You’re still trying to prove me wrong.
Jacob: You are wrong.
Esau: Am I? They come, fight. They corrupt. They destroy. It always ends the same.
Jacob: It only ends once, everything else is just progress.
We see right away that Jacob and Esau have two different views of humanity. Esau seems to think humanity is irredeemable. That they are not worthy of the Island. And Jacob seems to disagree. Redemption has always been a significant theme throughout this series and it has now been officially tied in to the interests of the characters in control of events on the Island.
Esau
The addition of the Esau character throws a huge monkey wrench into our understanding of events on the Island and everything we thought we knew about Jacob, so it’s worth going on a little exploration of this character before we try to figure out Jacob. The following is an extremely important point, which through various conversations I realized most people haven’t really caught on to, and is worth driving home.
Esau IS the Smoke Monster
How do we know this?
1) We know that the Esau has taken over Locke’s body(or actually, is presenting himself in the visage of Locke).
2) We know from the episode This Place is Death, that when the smoke monster captures a member of Rousseau’s team it proceeds to drag him through the woods towards The Temple where it drags him underneath the Temple through one of the vents which it exits from.
These are the two precursors that set the stage for the Esau=Smoke Monster theory. How does this play out? In the episode Dead is Dead Ben summons the Smoke Monster by means of the secret room within his house and tells Sun he won’t be able to control what comes out of the woods. But the Smoke Monster doesn’t show up. And instead of the monster, John Locke steps out of the woods. He tells Ben that he knows where to find the smoke monster(we now know all of Locke’s special knowledge in these episodes came from him not really being Locke). Locke leads Ben to The Temple(like how the smoke monster drags people it catches towards its home) but they don't go in the main way, they go in through the hole in the ground(the hole that the monster drags people into, i.e.- the french team). Locke knows the real reason Ben needs to be judged without Ben telling him so(the smoke monster judges people), and when Ben finally admits it, it is right after that that he falls through the floor. Locke leaves to go find rope. Ben encounters the smoke monster. Locke shows back up with rope asking what happened. If that isn't a Clark Kent/Superman moment I don't know what is.
Why is this important?
Okay, so Esau is the Smoke Monster…besides being a really cool fact, and opening up a host of questions (At what point did Esau stop taking his normal form? Why did he become the smoke monster? If the smoke monster has been around since ancient hieroglyphic times, has Esau always switched between Smokey and human form? Etc…) there are some other really important issues that stem from this realization. We know that the Smoke Monster is able to take the form of various individuals to communicate with people. At the very least we know that it took the form of Alex when confronting Ben in The Temple. We know it took the form of Yemi before it killed Eko. In both of those situations we saw flashes of light and images presented within the cloud of black smoke, as if it was accessing these character’s memories (to better know what form to take to best serve its purpose? To aid in judging them?).
Ever since we got firm confirmation that the Smoke Monster could present itself in various forms we’ve assumed/speculated that all the other Island induced visions were related to it as well. Are they? Has the form of Christian Shepard always been used by the smoke monster? What about the visions of Boone, or Walt, or Kate’s horse? What about off Island visions that the Losties have of Claire and Charlie and Libby and Ana Lucia, etc…? We know the smoke alarm goes away when Christian appears to Jack in the hospital, but I’d really like the think that’s it’s not the smoke monster using Charlie’s visage who is communicating with Hurley. And Jacob’s conversation with Hurley in the taxi cab would imply to me Hurley IS in fact communicating with the real Charlie.
I don’t want to go on too long here about the Smoke Monster, but it’s worth remembering that Smoke Monster does seem to protect the Island, as well as judge individuals who are on the Island. It also has a tendency to appear as characters who are dead (Alex, Yemi, Boone, Christian), and particularly characters who died on the Island, or whose bodies are on the Island. It’s also worth pointing out the connection this may have to The Whispers which if you’ve read the transcripts have some significant connection to characters which have died. Miles’ ability (as well as Hurley’s newfound one) may tie into these elements of the plot as well.
A Change in Perspective
I’m straying from the point here…which is that given our new found understanding of Esau’s connection to the Smoke Monster, and our understanding of Esau’s purpose in killing Jacob, we have to now question and reinterpret every single Island induced vision that has happened over the five seasons. How much of what we have seen is the Smoke Monster doing its job of protecting the Island, and how much is in service of this plot to find a loophole and kill Jacob? And more than that, this realization that there are actually two forces interacting with Island inhabitants makes us question everything we have been attributing to Jacob this whole time.
While we saw Jacob interacting with many characters off Island, we don't actually have any real indication that he is involved in interacting on Island with anyone. And I have a speculation, a gut feeling really, that Jacob only ever presents himself in his true form, and never takes on the appearance of other people. This leads us to question everything we've been told about Jacob, and whether it was really Esau pretending to be Jacob (a nice flip on the Jacob and Esau story). The cabin is a prime example. I had always speculated that Jacob was somehow trapped inside the cabin due to the lack of technology and the circle of ash surrounding it. But now that seems false.
Was the cabin meant to keep someone in or to keep someone out? And if so, who? Jacob or Esau? We know that the Illana's people go straight to the cabin which implies that they have been led to believe that this is where Jacob resides (yet the cabin was only built in the last 30 years, we know this because we've been told that Horace built it, though if this was a smoke monster induced hallucination, we have to question it's veracity now too). We know that Jacob likes rocking chairs and there is one in there. BUT, they also say that someone else has been using it. And when we heard the voice say "help me" when Locke first visited the cabin, we saw the black smoke rocking in the chair, which we now know is associated with Esau. So was that Esau asking for help? Was he trapped in there by Jacob? Or someone else? Did he break through a barrier he was meant to be kept out of to be able to communicate with Locke through Locke bringing in some sort of power source(the flashlight) that Esau could draw power from? How did the circle of ash surrounding the cabin get broken? Did this allow Esau to escape?
Jacob’s Touch
What do we know about Jacob? And what is purpose on the Island? From that first conversation we’re shown that Jacob has faith in humanity’s ability to be good and find redemption. We saw Jacob show up in all these people's lives at different moments, important moments. And at each of those times he did two things. He gave them some encouraging words, words of advice, and possibly more importantly, he TOUCHED every single one of them. In fact, i'm pretty positive that Locke was actually dead and Jacob brought him back to life. Which finally explains how he was able to survive that fall. For a while we've known that all these people were brought to the Island for a reason, that there was a reason behind all their crisscrossing paths, but those reasons were unknown. We have a small window into that reason now. We know Jacob has orchestrated all this, but we're still not aware of why. Why them? I'd like to know what was important about touching them, what did it do to them?
Is Jacob a Course Corrector?
What exactly is the purpose of Jacob's visits? I started thinking about what Jacob is doing, showing up at pivotal moments and impacting these characters, and I thought about it in relation to Desmond and his ability. Desmond can see the future, and act to try to change it, but the universe course corrects. I think Jacob and Desmond act in similar ways. They can see a "possible" future, and can act to impact events. They didn't "change" the future because there was nothing to change, the events they foresaw never occurred due to their actions. And yet....we have to remember course correcting. So no matter what Desmond did, Charlie was meant to die. And yet, through Desmond’s impact, Charlie's death was pushed back to the point where he was able to have a profound impact on events by being in the looking glass, speaking to Penny, thus allowing Penny and Desmond to be reunited, and have a child.
Is Jacob influencing people in the same way? He seems to tell them something, or do something, that changes the path they would have went down otherwise without his presence. How does this relate to how and why they end up on the Island? What is the Island? Would they have gone down a path that would have led them to their deaths otherwise? And Jacob's interference put that off, and thus they end up on this magical Island, to atone for their sins? For the sins they would have committed otherwise. And why THEM in particular? I have no idea how the show will answer these questions yet, just not enough information about Jacob and what he is and why he does what he does.
Adam and Eve
There’s one tangent I’d like to discuss that’s I think related to Jacob, and it’s about Rose and Bernard. Their scene in The Incident was really integral to the plot as well. They seem to have realized and lived out what Jacob was speaking of at the beginning of the episode. They escaped the cycle that Esau talks about. The Island seems to be a metaphor for heaven/paradise/nirvana/the garden of eden. Esau thinks humans aren't worthy of it because they are by nature corrupt/sinful/evil and always destroy and attempt to control. Jacob has faith they are better than this. And Rose and Bernard are living proof of this fact. They are at peace in the garden. I don't think there can be any doubt any more that Rose and Bernard are Adam & Eve. In light of this, I'm very interested in Bernard's invitation to Juliet to stay and have tea. Being that not only is she the only one not to be visited by Jacob, but she is also the person who makes the decision to set off the bomb. She is the last, and thus most important, chain in that link.
The Balance of good and evil?
Back to Jacob and Esau. It’s easy to talk about these two as good and evil, but i really don't think that's accurate. They seem to be guardians of the Island in some way. And while Jacob is certainly meant to be the good character, he's not ALL good. He doesn't save Nadia when she is run over by the car, when he certainly would have had the power to, given that he saves Sayid. He allows The Natives to kill everyone in the Dharma initiative, when we have to assume he’s the one that brought the Dharma people to the Island in the first place(it seems like no one can find the Island unless Jacob allows it, right?) Though it’s worth remembering that death might not actually be the end of existence on this Island, and so allowing death to happen might not be the worst thing…but this remains to be seen. And While Esau is certainly an evilish manipulator; he doesn't seem to be all evil. The smoke monster does certainly seem to have the Island’s best interests in mind, and protects it accordingly.
Their relationship again very much mirrors Ben and Widmore’s. For seasons we’ve been going back and forth about who is good and who is evil, and this keeps changing each time we are given new information. I think who is good and who is evil is the wrong question to ask. Ben and Widmore both do truly seem to have the Island’s best interests in mind, but this also seems to be wrapped around a selfish need to be the one in control. It is the corruption that Esau talks about.
Manipulations
Now that we’ve brought up the subject of manipulation, let’s talk about Ben for a minute. Ben(but also Charles and Eloise) have been constant manipulators on this show. Manipulating events and people to get what they want. But we finally found out that there has been a supreme manipulator, manipulating all of these people, but particularly Ben, all along. Esau's manipulation is masterful. It also, in the form of Christian Shepard is the one who told Locke to move the Island in the first place, is the one who helped Locke turn the wheel the second time. Got Richard to tell Locke the right thing so he could take Locke's form upon Locke's dead return. We think he’s been using Jacob’s cabin. Which begs the questions, has Ben all this time thought he was serving Jacob, but really been serving Jacob's enemy? Ben admitted Jacob never spoke to him. But did Ben ever see or interact with ANYONE? Or did he make it all up? How did Ben even know to go to Jacob’s cabin? Who led him there in the first place? Since Richard seems to go straight to the statue to see Jacob, where did Richard think Ben had been going all along?
Ben and Jacob
They've done a great job of humanizing Ben over the last year or two, and they managed to go even further this episode. When Esau(as Locke) was talking to Ben and telling him, "he gave you cancer, let your daughter get gunned down in front of you, never let you see him, you followed everything he said, and what did he do, banish you?" I could so sympathize with Ben, I could understand why he was going to kill Jacob, and yet I wished he wouldn't do it. His interchange with Jacob was really interesting too. Ben asks "what about ME?" but when Jacob answers, even though he says the words, "what about you?" back to Ben, it seemed more like he was saying them in the sense of "yes, what ABOUT you? What is it about you that I have never let you see me?"
Esau and The Loophole
So what is this loophole that Esau needed? If he just needed a human to kill Jacob i feel it wouldn't have had to be so difficult. Is it because he needs the current leader to kill Jacob, and technically Ben is still the current leader? Or does he need the current leader(Locke) to order someone to kill Jacob? Does it have to do with Ben's visit to Esau's Temple as a boy, where he was "changed" and lost his innocence? Is that why Jacob never let Ben see him? And is that why Esau manipulated the Losties to come back to the Island(because their actions lead Ben to being brought to The Temple). Esau(as Locke) figured out a way to get Richard to take him to Jacob and bring Ben in, and have manipulated events to make Ben hate Jacob. Did it seem like Esau was genuinely surprised when Richard told him Jacob was inside the statue? Why would he not know that? And what are the reasons behind Jacob being inside the statue, and Esau being in the temple?
Destiny Found
At the very end of the episode, Jacob warns Esau that "they" are coming. Is they the Others, Richard, and Illana’s group? Or is it the time hopping Losties? But what's even more telling about this, is that Jacob knows what's going to happen still. That even with all his manipulation, Esau has maybe not gotten the best of him. But why does Jacob allow all this to happen? And not just allow, but through many of his own actions it almost seems like he helps Esau bring about his demise, by helping certain people get to the Island, etc...Had Jacob foreseen his own death, and is this all still part of a greater plan? Will Jacob leave the humans to their own devices now to try to figure out what to do and how to do it? Will he maybe only come back at the end of the finale season when humanity proves him correct?
I thought that when Jacob said "What about you?" to Ben, he didn't mean anything bad by it. I thought he was asking Ben to look inside his own heart. He had been accusing Jacob of neglecting him, and I think Jacob was asking Ben to look in himself for the reason.
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posted
Thanks Geraine! that's pretty much what I was saying about Jacob, I was just speculating as to the reasons why...what he wanted Ben to find within himself. A possible reason is Ben's manipulation, and control, and murders. His corruption as Esau would say. But I don't think that's it. Jacob interacts with other people who have pasts that need atoning for. I think it has more to do with Ben's loss of innocence that occurred when he was brought to The Temple. But I could be wrong.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote: And Jacob’s conversation with Hurley in the taxi cab would imply to me Hurley IS in fact communicating with the real Charlie.
Remind me -- what did Jacob say to Hurley in the cab? (I'm still in total denial over Charlie being dead.)
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: And Jacob’s conversation with Hurley in the taxi cab would imply to me Hurley IS in fact communicating with the real Charlie.
Remind me -- what did Jacob say to Hurley in the cab? (I'm still in total denial over Charlie being dead.)
I think he said something like "Our lives aren't really all that interesting. I can't believe anyone would actually spend an hour of their lives watching us."
Posts: 1794 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Hates Doctor Who, hates Lost -- we must be approaching the Robot Apocalypse. Next you'll be hating on pizza and kittens.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: I think it has more to do with Ben's loss of innocence that occurred when he was brought to The Temple. But I could be wrong.
If that's true, then it'd be a real shame. It's not like Ben asked to get shot, or be healed. He's going to be "punished" (if not being spoken to or cared about by Jacob is truly a punishment) for the rest of his life because some time-traveling schmucks tried to save his life? I hate the hooeyness of statements like "loss of innocence," anyhow. Pretty sure Ben was already messed in the head before he was healed, and if his "loss" only involves him being healed unnaturally, my sympathy would lie with him.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: I think it has more to do with Ben's loss of innocence that occurred when he was brought to The Temple. But I could be wrong.
If that's true, then it'd be a real shame. It's not like Ben asked to get shot, or be healed. He's going to be "punished" (if not being spoken to or cared about by Jacob is truly a punishment) for the rest of his life because some time-traveling schmucks tried to save his life? I hate the hooeyness of statements like "loss of innocence," anyhow. Pretty sure Ben was already messed in the head before he was healed, and if his "loss" only involves him being healed unnaturally, my sympathy would lie with him.
That's a fair point Leonide, I didn't think about it that way.
I also dislike the term "loss of innocence", but I also assume that it was a phrase that was used that stood for a difficult to explain process/transformation that Ben was to undergo in The Temple.
quote:Originally posted by Dobbie:
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted:
quote: And Jacob’s conversation with Hurley in the taxi cab would imply to me Hurley IS in fact communicating with the real Charlie.
Remind me -- what did Jacob say to Hurley in the cab? (I'm still in total denial over Charlie being dead.)
I think he said something like "Our lives aren't really all that interesting. I can't believe anyone would actually spend an hour of their lives watching us."
Uprooted, Hurley was lamenting the fact that he's cursed because all these dead people come to him, and Jacob said something along the lines of that "maybe it's a blessing, you get to talk to all your friends". And because I think Jacob is generally a benevolent character, and not prone to lying, what I take away from that is that there is more to Hurley's visions than hallucinations or smoke monster induced visions.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: Hates Doctor Who, hates Lost -- we must be approaching the Robot Apocalypse. Next you'll be hating on pizza and kittens.
I never said anything about Doctor Who.
Posts: 1794 | Registered: Jul 2002
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We've never learned why Libby was in the mental institution, have we? I don't suppose we will. *hums, "An-swers. . ."*
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: Hates Doctor Who, hates Lost -- we must be approaching the Robot Apocalypse. Next you'll be hating on pizza and kittens.
I never said anything about Doctor Who.
Not in this thread, no. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Why does Jacob allow(and bring about) his own desmise?
Jacob obviously has knowledge of future events. He is there when Locke is thrown out the window. He is there to stop Sayid from crossing the street when Nadia is killed. He is there when Kate gets in trouble as a child. He's waiting for Hurley outside of the prison. And even as he is killed he warns Esau that "they're coming".
So given his foreknowledge of all these events...why does he take so many steps that in the end bring about his own death.
The simplest one is that his saving of Locke's life after Locke has been thrown out the window leads to directly to Esau being able to take Locke's visage after he is killed and brought back to the Island. But more subtly, he helps Sayid get back to the Island, and Sayid ends up shooting Ben leading to Ben needing to be healed by the Island, and helping to create the person that kills Jacob later.
On a side tangent, I find it fascinating how all the Losties pretty much in some way had a hand in creating Ben. Sayid shoots him. Jin, brings him back to the Dharma. Jack refuses to fix him. Sawyer and Kate bring him to the Natives. Each of those actions allowed Ben to be "changed" in the Temple. And each of those people was interacted with by Jacob at some point in their lives.
So what is Jacob's purpose in his actions? When Locke and Ben first enter his dwelling he says something about how it takes a long time to weave a tapestry. Esau has been weaving his own manipulation for many years, but Jacob has also been weaving his own thread. To what purpose?
Rewatching season 5 I was struck by how masterful Esau's manipulation was. So masterful that it turns out Richard is just another pawn in this manipulation. Locke's appearance in the 50s is what originally makes Richard believe he's special. Locke came to that meeting armed with knowledge that Richard from 2007 gave him. And Richard was only able to give him that knowledge because Esau in the visage of Locke gave it to him.
I'm curious though, if Esau knows where Jacob lives in the 1800s(when the Black Rock is coming in), how come he doesn't seem to know where Jacob lives in 2007?
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: Hates Doctor Who, hates Lost -- we must be approaching the Robot Apocalypse. Next you'll be hating on pizza and kittens.
I never said anything about Doctor Who.
Not in this thread, no.
quote:Originally posted by Dobbie: Does Dr. Who have to renew his medical license when he regenerates?
quote:Originally posted by Dobbie:
quote:Originally posted by Dobbie:
quote:Originally posted by Dobbie: Who's Matt Smith.
Note the lack of a question mark.
Get it?
That's everything I've posted about Doctor Who.
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I can't put into words how exciting watching that was!
I'd be curious to hear some thoughts from people who have been arguing for a reset or a loop theory of what would follow Season 5. What do you make of all this then? I can't imagine those theories are still plausible.
posted
The video is no longer available at that link. Is this the same preview that's here. or a different one?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Hey Rabbit, no, that looks like the footage of the first 4 minutes of tonight's show. The link I had was a season 6 preview that looked to have scenes from season 6 in general, and not specifically the premier.
I fixed the link above to contain the proper link. Not sure why it was changed. Definitely check it out!
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posted
Is it a true 3 hour premiere, or is it a 1-hour overview show and a 2-hour premiere, like in the past?
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
1-hour overview and then a 2-hour premiere I believe. There's been a 1-hour overview show available as a free download on iTunes for the last couple weeks (at least in Canada). They've actually put up all 5 recap episodes as well as the original 2 part pilot in HD, all for free.
Posts: 1336 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
A few random tidbits i picked up while rewatching the series:
-Ben says Widmore changed the rules by killing Alex. But did he? Exactly what are the rules?
When Ben confronts Widmore about killing Alex the conversation goes like this:
quote: Widmore: I didn’t murder her at all, Benjamin. You did.
Ben: No, that’s not true.
Widmore: Yes Benjamin, it is.
Later, when we see the flashback where Ben is supposed to kill Rousseau, Widmore indicates that Alex was supposed to be killed. If that is the case, then was Alex always supposed to die, and thus her death was the universe course correcting? If so, then Widmore really didn't break the rules right?
-When Claire meets with the psychic he tells her a nice couple in LA will raise her baby. She says she doesn't want strangers to raise her baby to which the psychic replies, "they're not strangers". Then later, Jack and Kate end up raising Claire's baby in LA!
-Bernard to Jin: This is all about karma jin. You make bad choices, bad things happen, you make good choices, good things happen.
If Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve I think we should really pay attention to this sentence as really important to the show.
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