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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Lost Season 6 (Page 16)

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Author Topic: Lost Season 6
The Reader
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So, this has been one long, complicated practical joke? Like life?
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Armoth
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Cat's Cradle
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Bella Bee
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Like life. You always have to hope everything works out in the end or you would go crazy.
Maybe you're just seeing patterns and squinting to find the meaning. Or maybe, this time, everything will become clear.

Everyone hopes, at some point, that someone, somewhere, has all the answers and can tell them why. Only, sometimes the answer turns out to be 'because'.

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Pepek
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the answer to why? is always because.

and some people make their own rules, while others follow other people's rules.

right and wrong. good and evil.

Nope.

there's only this way and that way, black and white.

it's all relative to our own personal selves.

we are Lost on an island floating around in space called Earth. no one seems to have any legitimate answers and the one (maybe)solid thing in all the uncertainty in this life is hope. and that's why we keep watching. and that's why we make sacrifices. trying to keep that hope alive until one day, maybe, the dharma initiative will discover the answers and then we can live in a world where Death is a choice we make when we're ready to let go and not something that haunts us or just shows up on our doorstep.

Glad to be on the island with you folks.

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kanelock1
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Dude, that was deep.
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Bella Bee
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*Lights the incense and gets out the finger cymbals*. Om.

I can't believe that this lovely nonsense all going to be over by next Monday morning.

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Pepek
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haha, thanks.
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daventor
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I really enjoyed this episode actually, and I did appreciate the last episode more now with Jacob referencing his past in the "fireside explanation" scene in this one. I like all the setup and feeling of everybody coming together; Violent Zen Desmond is always entertaining. I'm back to being really stoked for the finale.

One minor gripe, though: is that really the end of Richard's story!? Really!? I know he'd already been pretty demystified, changed from cool, mysterious all-knowing one to frantic I-have-no-clue-what-I'm-doing guy, but I really wanted a better ending for him. We had a whole flippin' episode devoted to his back story this season for him to just get dismissed in a second by Smokey. Couldn't he have at least accomplished one meaningful thing this season before being dispatched? I'm going crazy and suicidal-no wait, I'm off to join Smokey- no, wait, now I'm determined to blow up the plane- no, wait, now I'm going to get killed after doing little more than looking confused and upset for a whole season. While I'm still excited and holding out in hope for a satisfying ending, the show's writers really have dropped the ball on a lot of things. I wanted a much better resolution for Richard (if this is truly his end). Just not a satisfying character arc.

They did give a lot of awesome moments to Michael Emerson/Ben; I'm really excited to see how his storyline plays out. I'm also impressed by the writer's restraint in not showing us Juliet until the finale, apparently. Fingers crossed that this doesn't end up being one of the biggest let-downs of my life.

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Pepek
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fingers crossed here too.

I sorta feel like they had some cool concepts, ideas, storylines planned- but then they thought they could fit it all in this final season, when I could totally see this season being expanded with polished intricacies.
I feel like all the answers are being rushed. I want them to spend more time on them. spend more time with jacob talking about everything that's happened.
but instead it's like "bullet points with Jacob"

Don't be so quick to become a slave to the island Jack, throw another log on the fire and get to know the circumstances a little better.

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Uprooted
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Hmm, well that was a perfectly obvious no-brainer but it just hadn't occurred to me before; Jacob just wanted a candidate who didn't have that much to lose in the world outside. I'm a bit more tolerant of last week's hour-long flashback after last night's. Although if I ever rewatch all of LOST I will still probably skip it. I would have preferred it woven into the other episodes; an hour was a bit much. And Strider, of course you got it right with choice being paramount for Jacob.

I'm w/ daventor on Richard's seeming demise. And a bit saddened by Ben reverting to slimeball mode after seeing "nice Ben" in sideways world, as well as the whole "no one else will have me" thing w/ Ilana. Assuming that he really does intend to kill whoever Locke tells him to now, that is. Perfectly understandable that he still wanted revenge on Widmore.

"bullet points with Jacob" - perfect, Pepek!

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Tresopax
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I don't think Ben is really in slimeball mode... I think he has decided he needs to con the Man in Black in order to stop him. He killed Widmore in an attempt to prevent Widmore from revealing too much about Desmond's purpose to the MIB. Ben is the ultimate liar, so his final purpose on the Island will be to trick the MIB, this time for the greater good.

I also bet Richard is not dead. This is the man given immortality by Jacob after all - and if the MIB could simply kill him under the "rules", it seems like he would have done it long long ago.

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msquared
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I agree with Tres about Ben and Richard.

Also, the actor playing Saywer (don't remember his name) was great last night. You could tell he was almost on the verge of tears when he realized that he was the cause of Sun/Jin and Sayed's deaths.

Kate is still an candidate. That might throw a wrench in Lockes plan.

msquared

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Tresopax
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The line about Desmond as a "fail-safe" has me thinking... What if the whole button-pushing thing is an analogy for the island? A lonely individual is told he must keep pushing the button or energy will be released to destroy the world - and if he dies, someone has to take his spot. A lonely individual is told he must keep protecting The Light or something will happen and the world will be destroyed - and once again, when he dies, someone has to take his spot. Eventually Locke destroys the button, but Desmond uses the fail-safe, and causes something unknown to happen that seems to allow everyone to survive and the cycle ends. Now is Locke going to destroy the Light, but have Desmond be a fail-safe, causing something unknown to happen that allows everyone to survive, ending the cycle? Does Light/Island = Button?

You could take the comparison even further. We were given evidence leading us to believe that the Button may have just been a psychological experiment, with Dharma people from another station observing the button-pushers. There were two camps debating whether it really was just a psychological experiment or whether the button really had significance. Similarly, we viewers are a bit like the Dharma folks observing the button-pushers. Maybe the finale is going to leave us with the question - was this really just about the characters' development as human beings, or does the island and the Light really have some significance to the greater world beyond that?

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Geraine
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I do not think Richard is dead. Richard mentioned earlier in the season that it was against the rules for Locke to kill him.
I also agree about Ben. I don't think he is with Locke at all. I think he is playing him just like he has played other people on the show. Ben is a survivor. He does whatever it takes to ensure his own safety. He knew the only way he was going to be able to survive was to stick with Locke. The flash sideways with him was great. When Ben learned that Alex looks at him as a father like figure, he looked like he was going to cry.

As far as Sawyer, Hurley, and Kate are concerned, I don't think they are candidates anymore. Jack took the job, so the others are not really needed anymore. Like Ben said: "What happens when the island is done with us."

Desmond can destroy the island eh?

My prediction: The "light" in the island causes electromagnetism, and Desmond can withstand it. Locke gives him the C4, somehow finds the cave where the heart of the island lays, and throws Desmond in there and has him detonate it. Viola, no more island.

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msquared
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Can Desmond enter the place with the light?

msquared

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BryanP
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I think this season would have been pretty good on it's own, or perhaps if it had come a few seasons ago with some added context. But as an ending it just feels tacked on, cause the writers needed to end it somehow. But where does it tie in to the overall series? What was the point of leaving the island and coming back, and getting unstuck in time and going back into the '70s, etc.? None of it ties together, it all happened randomly cause the writers needed something to write. This thing with Jacob and his brother has nothing to do with anything that happened before this season.

I also have a big problem with the fundamental premise that someone is needed to protect the island. Cause it's impossible to find the light cave. So impossible that no one who's been searching for it for 30 years can find it. And yet someone needs to stay on the island to protect it. What? It doesn't need protecting!

So, basically, the island serves 2 purposes: 1) to contain Smokey, someone who was perfectly nice, whose only crime was wanting to leave the island and taking retribution on the woman who killed his mother and everyone else he knew, until his own brother killed him by sending him into the cave of light; and 2) the home of the cave of light which is evidently the place where birth, life and rebirth occur. And, of course, the creation of smoke monsters. And for as big a deal as they have made about containing Locke, there's no reason to think the world is doomed should he escape the island, cause all he's ever wanted, after all, was to leave.

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Jay
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Bryan I agree. I’ve been wondering about Jacob and if he is really good. Smokey lately has been pretty nasty with killing people yes, but you can for sure say he’s been forced into it. He seemed good when he was human. Rather Anakin Skywalker like you could almost say. Notice they still have never said Smokey’s name.
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Ryoko
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I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been brought up and dismissed...

I can't help thinking that Jack's son (in the alternate reality) is the smoke monster.

Where did he come from otherwise? It would make sense to me that since smokey lost his parents that his one "true wish" is to have parents again and live in an idyllic version of the "real world".

Maybe Desmond was gathering the people to go to that concert in order to set things right somehow. ?

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swbarnes2
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
So, basically, the island serves 2 purposes: ... 2) the home of the cave of light which is evidently the place where birth, life and rebirth occur.

The writers don't seem to realize that when you make the supposed authorities of the island manipulative killers, then the viewers don't actually know anything, because we can't believe any of these people.

And Jacob's "I wanted you to have a choice" rings rather hollow in the face of the dozens of innocent people who died before Jacob made his offer to his chosen band. Jacob didn't think much of their free will.

And why were the Others kidnapping people? And why did Locke's legs suddenly give out on him at the plane crash site where Boone was fatally injured? And why do pregnant women die if their children are concieved on the island?

There are no answers. There never were.

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryoko:
I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been brought up and dismissed...

I can't help thinking that Jack's son (in the alternate reality) is the smoke monster.

Where did he come from otherwise? It would make sense to me that since smokey lost his parents that his one "true wish" is to have parents again and live in an idyllic version of the "real world".

Maybe Desmond was gathering the people to go to that concert in order to set things right somehow. ?

If you watched last week's episode you learn that the BSM was Jacob's twin brother. They were born hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. The child actor that plays Jacob's twin is different than the one that plays Jack's son as well.
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BryanP
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
If you watched last week's episode you learn that the BSM was Jacob's twin brother. They were born hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. The child actor that plays Jacob's twin is different than the one that plays Jack's son as well. [/QB]

Given that their mom (their real mom) spoke Spanish, I'm gonna lean towards hundreds rather than thousands of years.
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Ryoko
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
If you watched last week's episode you learn that the BSM was Jacob's twin brother. They were born hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. The child actor that plays Jacob's twin is different than the one that plays Jack's son as well.

This is all true, but if they used the same child actor for both parts, it would have given too much away (assuming that this theory is true, which it probably isn't. [Smile] )

It just seems so strange to have Jack's son come out of nowhere this season.

Who else could he be?

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Strider
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Ryoko, if altTime is indeed an "alternate time line" created at the moment of the nuke explosion in 1977 and branching in a different direction from the original time line, then the answer to your question is simply, it's his son. he came from his mother's womb. he's been alive 12 years and you're only questioning his existence because you came into the story 12 years after his birth.

now, i don't think it is an alternate time line as i've mentioned many times, in which case your question is actually valid. What is the nature of the "souls" in altTime? Where did this being come from?

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Ryoko
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From a dramatic point of view, a concert is a useful setting for a finale.

It gives a built in excuse for a LARGE number of people to gather in one place. Throw in some bittersweet music in the background and you've got a ending scene with plenty of slow panning throughout the audience.

Since the son is playing in the concert, it seems likely that he will be a big focal point.

Plus, they can continue riffing on the black/white theme using the piano keys... [Smile]

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solo
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I think Faraday is going to have a more prominent role in the concert than Jack's son.

I don't think nearly everything will be explained (the pregnancy problems, the time travel) or at least not in a way that is satisfactory to me but despite this, I've really been enjoying the last couple of episodes and I think I'm going to enjoy the finale.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
If you watched last week's episode you learn that the BSM was Jacob's twin brother. They were born hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. The child actor that plays Jacob's twin is different than the one that plays Jack's son as well.

Given that their mom (their real mom) spoke Spanish, I'm gonna lean towards hundreds rather than thousands of years. [/QB]
I'm pretty sure she was speaking Latin not Spanish but he only to things she said "Thank You" and "My name is Claudia" are extremely similar in both languages.
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Strider
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I thought it was Latin as well.
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BryanP
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Oh okay. I thought it would be Latin as well but when I recognized some words I figured it was Spanish [Smile]
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Xann.
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
Oh okay. I thought it would be Latin as well but when I recognized some words I figured it was Spanish [Smile]

That's funny, I recognized some words and figured it was Latin. I think everyone just breeds biases based on what language they took in high school.
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Strider
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I have a bunch of thoughts to share. They're not very well formed. They started with Rokyo's questioning of David's(Jack's son) existence in altTime. And also had to do with the fact that Jack is now the Guardian of the Light.

If my theory is right that altTime isn't really an altTime, but that the events on the Island are leading up to altTime, and that altTime is a facade of a universe, what does that mean for all the characters who exist in this universe that aren't characters we know from the Island? In an altTime it'd be as simple as "well, it's another universe, and all these characters exist here separately". But if I'm right, then the Jack and Kate and Locke and so on in altTime are OUR Jack and Kate and Locke. And if so, who the hell is everyone else? And since there's only one of all these people in the universe that's played a main role, who the hell is Jack's son? Where did he come from? In essence, does he have a "soul"?

I'm just going to babble now about some things with no particular clear goal in mind. I'm going to speak as if some of my assumptions are in fact true just to make this easier, though I acknowledge i could be wrong and many of you disagree with me. Jack is now the guardian of the light. And altTime is a facade. And altTime is a universe where the Island is buried under water, where Jacob never interfered with these characters lives. And yet we know to some degree it's a facade because Desmond is going around showing them the truth of their other existences. And characters have trouble remembering events from their altTime past(Jack and his appendix, Locke and how he got in the wheel chair). Eloise knows about this facade and is actively trying to protect it (which, btw, not only is this a universe where Daniel is alive(a reason to protect the facade), but it is also one where Widmore, now dead on the Island, is also alive).

So the question is, how and why was it created? I'm pretty sure the answer to this comes down to Jack, Esau, and Desmond, or some combination there of. And some significant aspect of it will be one of those three characters entering the light. I'm guessing Desmond, with Jack as a second possibility, and Esau as a third.

What happens if the smoke monster goes back in there? Does he cease to be the smoke monster, or is he free?

What happens when the person in the role of guardian of the Island goes in there? Does he negate his self? Existence as we know it?

What happens when someone who once turned the "failsafe" and was subjected to mass amounts of special Lost Island electromagnetic radiation goes into this pocket of energy?

I'm thinking that this is what creates altTime. This is the failsafe Widmore was talking about, that Jacob told him about (why he doesn't tell Jack and the Losties is beyond me). Maybe this failsafe is a matrix like facade of a universe to trap Esau in. Trap him in such a way that he doesn't WANT to leave (inside the body of a dark haired boy who has had a huge breakthrough in his relationship with his parent maybe?). But, if that's the case, Desmond actively working to reveal the truth of this might fee Esau again. So i'm torn. My thoughts this whole season were that altTime is a trap/prison for the Losties. One that was either forced on them, or one that they actually chose, given the option by Esau. And yet, these ideas about a prison for Esau seem to work too. But there's also the idea that many of these characters are really making personal breakthroughs in altTime. Ben is good. Alex is alive. He's connecting with Rousseau. Jack made a huge breakthrough in a parent/child relationship. Locke is letting go. Hurley is happy. Characters who were dead are now alive. Charlie and Claire can be together...

Maybe Desmond's purpose isn't to get all these characters out of altTime, but to bring them all together. And let them live out their lives in this universe.

Or maybe the show will end with Jack and Locke sitting on a beach together, with Locke saying to Jack, "do you know how much I want to kill you?".

Sorry for the ramble!

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Leonide
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Not that I don't enjoy the theorizing about Jack's son, but if Smokey was really going to be stuck in a facade-world working out his parent issues, wouldn't he be doing it with a Mother, not a Father? His beef with authority was pretty specific and directed.
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Strider
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eh, my thoughts don't necessarily all hinge on Ryoko's theory being correct. It just happened to fit with some other thoughts I was having. the main idea was that altTime is the result of Desmond's role as the failsafe which I'm speculating is the act of him entering the light. And even that is in flux!
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The Rabbit
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If we apply Occum's razor to the analysis, by far the simplest explanation for Jack's son and all the dead people who are alive in alt-time is that it is in fact an alternative time line and not some illusion.

Under this assumption, all we need is an explanation for the connection between the two time lines and we all ready have a somewhat plausible explanation -- its an effect of the island's mysterious EM properties that have already caused at least 2 different types of time anomalies.

Now, I'll freely admit that there is no reason to expect Occum's razor will apply to lost, I'm just saying that the "alt-time is an illusion" theory leaves a whole lot more to be explained in the roughly 90 minutes remaining of the show than the obvious alternative.

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Ryoko
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I had been thinking along the same lines that this alt-reality was some sort of matrix-like illusory world where your dreams come true, only limited by your own personal baggage (ala Sayid, Kate, etc.).

I guess the million dollar question still remains...

who is this kid's mom?

Maybe that is the kid's only function...to give a reason for Jack and the mother to meet up at the concert (presuming they will) for the dramatic reveal.

Still, they've given the kid just enough material (story-wise) to make it seem like his character is more pivotal. Whatever it is, he creeps me out a little. [Smile]

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Ryoko
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quote:
Not that I don't enjoy the theorizing about Jack's son, but if Smokey was really going to be stuck in a facade-world working out his parent issues, wouldn't he be doing it with a Mother, not a Father? His beef with authority was pretty specific and directed.
My only idea in response to this is that since he did have a "mother figure" for a long time, you would expect that he would have a lot of fantasies about what his father must have been like.

Maybe Jack struck him as a good "candidate" ( [Wink] ) to step in as a father figure?

This makes sense to me because I'm sure that in addition to the fantasies, there would be a lot of resentment as well (i.e. Where were you dad?).

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The Rabbit
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How then do you explain all the dead people (Charlie, Locke, Sun, Jin, Sayid, Daniel, Charlotte, Libby, Ana Lucia, Alex, Boone, Anthony Cooper, Arzt, Keemy, Nadia, and probably others) who are in the alt-time line. Are they all illusions or zombies or some sort?
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The Rabbit
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My official guess is that the island is a Pandoras Box. By detonating the atomic bomb, they let hope loose in the world. So even though the alt-time line isn't an ideal dream world, in alt-time there is hope. if for no other reason, there is hope because they are all still alive. There is hope for Charlie and Claire, Hugo and Libby, Locke and Helen, Sayid and Nadia, Daniel and Charlotte because they are all still alive.
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Jay
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Check this cartoon out:
Smoke Monster

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Strider
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Ryoko, I'll bet anything that david's mom is Juliet. And that in this final episode we'll hear her say "let's go out for coffee some time. We can go dutch".

Most likely to Sawyer. But possibly to jack.

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Strider:
Ryoko, I'll bet anything that david's mom is Juliet. And that in this final episode we'll hear her say "let's go out for coffee some time. We can go dutch".

Most likely to Sawyer. But possibly to jack.

I think so too. She is really the only main character that we have not seen in the alt time line. That and her cryptic last words make me think that it has to be her to tie everything up.

I guess we haven't seen Michael in the alt time line either though.

Am I the only one let down that they didn't bring Tom back for at least a cameo appearance? I liked that character.

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Strider
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
How then do you explain all the dead people (Charlie, Locke, Sun, Jin, Sayid, Daniel, Charlotte, Libby, Ana Lucia, Alex, Boone, Anthony Cooper, Arzt, Keemy, Nadia, and probably others) who are in the alt-time line. Are they all illusions or zombies or some sort?

We know that to a certain degree, dead is NOT dead, since lots of characters interact on the Island after they've died. Maybe altTime is the place you go after you die and are free of the Island. But in general, I don't think we should be surprised to see dead people walking around.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
We know that to a certain degree, dead is NOT dead, since lots of characters interact on the Island after they've died. Maybe altTime is the place you go after you die and are free of the Island. But in general, I don't think we should be surprised to see dead people walking around.
With the exception of Sayid, dead has always been dead. In alt-time, Charlie, Locke, Sun, Jin Daniel etc are pretty clearly not ghosts. If alt-time is some sort of a facade, we need an explanation of why all the dead are alive in alt-time. If the dead are just part of the "program" that is maintaining the facade, then why are at least some of them (Charlie and Libbie for example) an active force in bringing down the facade?

Once again, there maybe perfectly good answers to those questions but it seems unnecessarily complicated. If alt-time is just an illusion, they are going to have a very hard time explaining enough to make it seem plausible with only 90 minutes of show time remaining.

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Strider
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Rabbit, we have 150 minutes!

What I mean by dead is not dead is in the sense that Jacob, Michael, Richard's wife, Eko, Ana Lucia, Charlie, and others have all interacted after their deaths, mostly with Hurley. Michael confirmed that the whispers were characters who had died who had not been able to be free of the Island yet. So while dead might be dead, dead is not the end of existence.

So it's not so much of a stretch to see these characters with some sort of existence, whatever the nature of altTime ends up being. I don't think they're ghosts or programs, I think the Ana Lucia in altTime is the same Ana Lucia that pulled Hurley's car over in season 4.

This whole season I've been espousing this theory, and this whole season you've been against. I've admitted it's complicated, that I don't understand it all, and that there are problems with it. But I've also brought up a whole host of problems with altTime as "an alternate reality where they never crash on the Island created by the detonation of the nuke". I've asked why a nuke explosion would bury an Island under water, how all the characters in close proximity to a nuke explosion could survive and exist in altTime, where Jack's cut on his neck comes from, why they are having trouble remembering their altTime pasts, why they keep looking into mirrors as if something is wrong with what they're seeing, how and why they're able to partly access IslandTime and these other existences, how Eloise knows about all this, etc...none of these have ever been fully answered by standard altTime theories. And even at one point you conceded there were problems with this standard theory of altTime.

I keep using illusion and facade, I think those are bad words to use as they imply something I might not necessarily mean. I've other times used "elaborately constructed universe". There is nothing more "fake" about altTime then there is about the idea that I actually perceive the world around me as it really is. It's all just sensory information being interpreted by my brain in the end. Call it what you will!

Anyway, I stick by my prediction that you and I will still be arguing about this after Sunday night. [Smile]

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BryanP
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I like Strider's theory a lot, but in all honesty I don't think the writers of the show have ever had that good of an idea. It would be totally shocking to me if the ending was that good (I stick with my earlier post about it still having NOTHING to do with pre-season-5-finale-Lost, but at this point I think they've screwed the pooch on the series as a whole, so a good end to whatever they've made this season will have to be good enough).

My guess is that it's a true alternate timeline created by the detonation of the nuke (regardless of whether that makes sense, since there are many things that have happened on this show that don't make sense) and that the altTime people will somehow merge with the island folk, defeat Smokey once and for all and maybe destroy the island, too, so that Jack doesn't have to twiddle his thumbs on it for all eternity. I don't think the island is a Pandora's Box, and it seems to be that Desmond's goal is to get everyone together so he can somehow get them back in their other lives. He thinks his life in altTime doesn't have any meaning, so even though everyone else is happy/alive, they're not going to be able to escape their fates of being involved with the island.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
Rabbit, we have 150 minutes!
You aren't considering commercials. A typical 1 hour show, averages 45 minutes long. Two hours, would be around 90 minutes of actual show time. The 2 hour season premier was only 86 minutes. I'd missed that the finale would be 2 1/2 hours, that might give them as much as 115 minutes, depending on how many commercials they show. I'm betting on a massive commercial overload myself.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
My prediction: The "light" in the island causes electromagnetism, and Desmond can withstand it. Locke gives him the C4, somehow finds the cave where the heart of the island lays, and throws Desmond in there and has him detonate it. Viola, no more island.
If the island and the light within it survived a hydrogen bomb at the drill site, Its implausible that it could be taken out with a few blocks of C4.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
This whole season I've been espousing this theory, and this whole season you've been against. I've admitted it's complicated, that I don't understand it all, and that there are problems with it. But I've also brought up a whole host of problems with altTime as "an alternate reality where they never crash on the Island created by the detonation of the nuke". I've asked why a nuke explosion would bury an Island under water/[quote]

Well, I can't think of any physically realistic mechanism of any kind that would bury and island under water without destroying the buildings and structures on the island. Can you? If you accept that the island is on some sort of pocket of energy that has all kinds of magic properties like healing sick people and facilitating travel through time and space, the idea that a nuclear bomb that counter acts this energy might sink the island isn't at all far out. Its the least of the problems. I could speculate something like "The island was floating on the pocket of energy, when the nuke neutralized the energy, the island sunk." I think its kind of a silly question to begin with so I don't think answering it deserves much thought. There are all kinds of fantastic elements of this show that are far more difficult to explain.

[quote]How all the characters in close proximity to a nuke explosion could survive and exist in altTime.

I think I've answered this one before, but I'll do it again. In alt-time, none of those people were at the blast site. The best theory I can come up with is that the nuclear blast fractured the time line. The original time line losties time jumped to the future a micro-second before the bomb blast so they are in a time line where the nuke never detonated. The other losties are in a timeline where the island sank in the 70s, so they never crashed on the island and were never at the bomb site. Jacob and Esau and the island weren't around to interfere in their lives and so lots of things turned out different.

That leaves the Dharma people and the others who show up in alt time. Since the buildings on the Island weren't destroyed, I'll speculate that the energy of the bomb was neutralized by the Island's energy pocket so people and buildings survived. The island began to sink slowly into the sea and they all evacuated.

quote:
where Jack's cut on his neck comes from
This one has me baffled. Particularly since the cut seems to appear and disappear. What's your theory?

quote:
why they are having trouble remembering their altTime pasts
If alt-time is an alternate time line, they have no pasts on the island to remember. The question becomes, why are they remembering things from the island at all if those things didn't happen.

quote:
why they keep looking into mirrors as if something is wrong with what they're seeing, how and why they're able to partly access Island
I've said a number of times that its obvious that there is a connection between the two time lines. That much we've always agreed on, we simply disagree about the nature of the connection. You think they are happening sequentially on one time line and I think parallel is time lines are more plausible. I think suspect the connection is one more manifestation of islands mysterious powers that cause things like healing and time travel. It seems like a variant of stuff we've already seen happen to Desmond.

quote:
Time and these other existences, how Eloise knows about all this, etc...none of these have ever been fully answered by standard altTime theories.
We are only speculating that Eloise knows stuff. Remember how we thought Richard knew all kinds of stuff and it turned out he didn't. The explanation for Eloise could be just as unremarkable as the explanation for Richard.

quote:
And even at one point you conceded there were problems with this standard theory of altTime.
I think you misunderstood me then and are still misunderstanding me. I don't have a theory about what's going on. I suspect everything I've speculate above is wrong. I'm just hoping that the writers have answers that don't seem too terribly contrived.

My argument with you is not an attempt to advance a particular theory. My argument is that your theory doesn't fit the data we've got very well. I'm not trying to advance a particular alternative to your theory, I'm just rejecting your theory. Your theory requires introducing a major plot device that is very different from anything we've seen so far.

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Strider
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quote:
That leaves the Dharma people and the others who show up in alt time. Since the buildings on the Island weren't destroyed, I'll speculate that the energy of the bomb was neutralized by the Island's energy pocket so people and buildings survived. The island began to sink slowly into the sea and they all evacuated.
Ben's dad said something about how they should've stayed on the Island, their lives might have been so different.

quote:

This one has me baffled. Particularly since the cut seems to appear and disappear. What's your theory?

No idea, but obviously my theory is that it's the result of something that is yet to happen on the Island in 2007.

quote:
If alt-time is an alternate time line, they have no pasts on the island to remember. The question becomes, why are they remembering things from the island at all if those things didn't happen.

No, I mean why don't altTime characters remember events from their altTime past. Why doesn't Jack remember getting his appendix out? Why doesn't Locke seem to remember the details of his accident? My theory is because these are basically fake memories. They don't HAVE an altTime past since this is an illusion/constructed universe.

quote:
We are only speculating that Eloise knows stuff. Remember how we thought Richard knew all kinds of stuff and it turned out he didn't. The explanation for Eloise could be just as unremarkable as the explanation for Richard.

maybe, but the fact that she wanted to keep desmond from asking questions, indicating he wasn't ready yet or that it wasn't time yet, leads me to believe she at least knows something relatively important about altTime.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
No, I mean why don't altTime characters remember events from their altTime past. Why doesn't Jack remember getting his appendix out? Why doesn't Locke seem to remember the details of his accident? My theory is because these are basically fake memories. They don't HAVE an altTime past since this is an illusion/constructed universe.
Locke remembers a great deal of the details from his accident. He just doesn't remember what exactly went wrong that caused the crash. That's completely normal, considering that he was seriously injured in the accident. When I've crashed my bike, I very rarely have a clear idea about what went wrong and I've never even had a serious injury.

We have only one real data point where someone in alt-time didn't remember something they should have, Jack's appendix. I'm don't think that one point justifies your theory. It's much easier to rationalize that as part of a general bleed over between the two realities than it is to explain dozens of dead people now having meaningful lives that contribute to breaking down the illusion.

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The Rabbit
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Strider, I think you are still misunderstanding me. I don't have a theory about what's going on. I can come up with half a dozen that may be on the right track, but I'm not committed to any of them. I'm sure they're all wrong but they may have a bit of truth to them. Asking me how I explain things with my theory, is just missing the point. I'm not proposing one alternative to your theory, I'm just arguing that your theory does not fit the existing data without some major retrofitting.

I'm curious, how do you imagine the series ending if your theory is correct? I can only come up with two general possibilities and both of them are horribly unappealing to me.

1. After the characters in the alt-reality uncover the true nature of things, the alt-reality collapses and they all go back to being dead or stranded forever on the island guarding the light in the cave.

2. The characters in the alt-reality discover the real nature of the lie they are living but choose to keep living it because it beats the hell out of being dead or stranded forever on the island.

Do you have a better option?

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