posted
I just had the "initiation," I guess, into adult womanhood... some random guy I met twenty minutes before tried to kiss me.
So, I was in one of the cafeterias on campus, eating a late lunch, and reading a book. It's very common here for people who don't know each other to end up at the same table, and just start chatting. This guy was by himself, and I was by myself, so he asked if he could sit at my table, and I agreed... this had happened many times before.
We chatted, and he was a really nice guy, and I was thinking "finally, I'm making friends here, woohoo"... we talked about various things, and classes, and sort of joked together. He was telling me of spots on campus that I really need to go check out because they're gorgeous, and I said that I would do that at some point, but I wanted to go home and take a nap before I have to meet someone at 5:00 later today. When we got up to put our trays in the kitchen, he took my phone number, and said "we should go out for coffee or something, sometime"... which again, is a very common thing here. So I thought nothing of it. *stabs naivete of self*
When we walked out of the cafeteria, and I was about to say goodbye, and nice to meet you, he said "You know, the amphitheatre I told you about is really close, and it's gorgeous... I could show it to you, so you know where it is, really quickly before you have to leave." Again, curse my stupid childish innocence... I smiled and said "ok, thanks!" and we walked in the direction of the amphitheatre.
The view from there really was amazing... it showed all of Midbar Yehuda, and the mountains behind, and of course the Palestinian village between us and the desert. A really fantastic view. And it was really quiet... I like finding places to go where I can get away from the general hubbub of the campus. I still wasn't catching on... what an idiot.
He was pointing out the various sites, telling me what they are, and we sat down on the steps to look at them. He kept looking at me, and he took one of my braids, and said "so, is your family redheaded too?" and started playing with it. I laughed and said that I'm the only one in my family for generations to have red hair. He kept playing with my braid, and then he took the other one, from the other side of my head, to play with too... and his arm just happened to land right around my waist, where I guess he decided it was time to drop the hair. Yes, I did start to figure it out at this point (about time, right?), and I suddenly panicked. I moved a little sideways, away from him, so he'd get the idea that I wasn't comfortable with that, and suddenly looked at my watch and said "oh, I have to go now." I started to get up, but he wouldn't let me, he pulled me back down, and kept saying things like "I didn't think it could happen, that I sit in the cafeteria, and suddenly meet someone as wonderful as you."
I was freaking out by this point.
I got up, and went straight to my stuff, put my backpack on my back, and started to move away, really confused, with garbled mentionings of the boyfriend I have in the States... though he probably thought I was making them up. Suddenly he walked right up to me, and leaned into my face, while starting to put his arm around my neck.
That was the final straw. I pushed him away, and he said "what's the matter, too fast for you? We can go slower if you want." Stricken, I tried to talk about how happy I am with my current boyfriend, and walked as quickly as I could in the direction of leaving campus, where my dorm is. I was so shaken, I couldn't believe he had just tried to kiss me... call me naive yet again, but this has never happened to me before, and I was really traumatized. He ran after me, looking somewhat sheepish, and walked back with me to where we were going to split and go in different directions. He apologized a few times after that, and then said he had a lovely time, and it was nice to meet me, and walked away. I headed toward my dorms, shaking.
But... he as my phone number. And now I'm really scared. Because I gave it to him before he turned creepy. And I'm about to burst into tears, it was awful.
You handled it beautifully. Being trusting and innocent is NOT something to blame yourself for, and you did a great job of handling it. And, sadly, will probably be a lot less trusting with the next guy to try that, but that won't be a bad thing. *hugs* I'm proud of you. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Don't freak. Don't be scared. Based on the apologies and how he acted afterwards, he's probably not someone to be scared of, just someone with a bad sense of timing. He'll probably call and ask you out and try to "make up" for coming on to strong, and if you just tell him again you're not interested he'll probably go away. If he doesn't, that's something you can deal with then, don't waste your energy worrying about it now.
For your own peace of mind, it wouldn't hurt to stay around groups of people for awhile. But really... don't think this is what being an adult is like, for the most part, this is what being in college is like. Men slow down and back off a little when they get older. Plus, as it happens more often, you'll get a better sense of when it's going to happen and how to deal with it without getting embarassed or freaking out. ((Raia)) You're gorgeous, it's going to happen. And some people have different senses of boundries than others. You'll figure out where yours are, make them clear, and everything will be fine.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I doubt that he’ll call, and if he does it will probably be just to apologize again. You handled it well. *hugs*
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sounds like he's still in the dream world every young man goes through. This was probably him experimenting, feeling lonely and testing how strong he can come onto a woman before he gets a slap!
Try not to think too much of it, he's made his mistake and knows what not to try in the future, but do try and talk to him and be friendly, just to clear the awkwardness
Also, Damn you! I want to see the sights of your campus!
All the best, Matty
Posts: 1 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
It's all about your comfort level. If he calls and is insistant and creeps you out, yeah, call the police. But you didn't get any bad vibes off him in the cafeteria, or you wouldn't have chatted with him and gone on the walk at all. So he's probably a relatively normal guy who was completely taken with you and needs to work on 1) his social skills and 2) reading other people. But I don't think he'll just call to apologize, I think he'll still try to get another chance. Be firm with him, and if he doesn't go away then, that's certainly the time to get the authorities involved.
Edit: If he makes you uncomfortable, you have absolutely no obligation to be freindly and clear the awkwardness. That way can lead to him thinking he still has a chance, plus he'll learn a lot faster not to do it if he doesn't get a freindship out of the bargin.
The rest of you, thanks... yeah, he's probably not much of a risk now, but I'm still really scared... I'm sure I'll get over it, but now I'm really freaked out.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I am sympathatic, but I am also surprised you got to the age you are without this having happened before. Gosh -- I'm naive' and small town and all that, but the first time a similar thing happened to me I was only 15.
I just thought everyone had encountered this at some point in their high school life...
Don't stress -- I agree with what Eljay said. He just mis-read your friendliness.
posted
Just be sure to be clear. If your current goal is to have no contact with him, and he gets in touch with you, tell him once that you want no contact with him. Be polite, but don't equivocate or give him a reason - you don't owe him one. Also, don't put any temporal qualifications on your desire to have no contact. No "for now" or "I'm in a bad place in my life right now" or even "I have a boyfriend."
After that, if he contacts you, do not respond. If you feel threatened, go to the police or campus security. If not, just ignore him. Do not reward persistent behavior on his part.
Good luck. Hopefully he's mortified and will simply stay away.
posted
I've tried to kiss girls I've just met before, so I can't blame him for that.
But to hold on to Raia so that she can't leave? That is technically battery and I can't really accept that as a mere lack of social skills.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:I am sympathatic, but I am also surprised you got to the age you are without this having happened before. Gosh -- I'm naive' and small town and all that, but the first time a similar thing happened to me I was only 15.
I just thought everyone had encountered this at some point in their high school life...
Guys suck. I feel like Hugh Grant at the SPAT meeting. I didn't realize how often this happens. Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Just be sure to be clear. If your current goal is to have no contact with him, and he gets in touch with you, tell him once that you want no contact with him. Be polite, but don't equivocate or give him a reason - you don't owe him one. Also, don't put any temporal qualifications on your desire to have no contact. No "for now" or "I'm in a bad place in my life right now" or even "I have a boyfriend."
This is correct. If he twists what you say into sounding like you were into it, do not respond to him. Some people love lying or twisting words to goad you into contacting them to "clear things up" or "straighten the record." All you have to do if a third party asks you about such a twisted story is ask them if they'll follow you to the school security to make a stalking complaint with you.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Be blunt. "Don't ever call me or try to contact me in any way again. What you did was unwanted and inappropriate, and if I hear from you again, I will speak to the authorities. If you were just joking around, you need to wise up -- and instead of apologizing to me, spend your time and energy making sure it doesn't happen again." Click.
But of course, I am biased. Being young and giving off all those soft/fluffy/inoffensive vibes, I attracted my share of guys who didn't respect my boundaries. 5 that creeped me out, 3 of whom got really scary, and 2 of those who I spoke to the police about*. None of them backed off until I was blunt, and I wished I'd listened to my gut from the beginning.
But, my ego was all caught up in "being nice" and "not hurting anyone's feelings, ever" -- I agonized over it, and I was proud about the agonizing, as I thought it meant I was sensitive. Instead of prey.
*(The other of the three scary guys was in one of my biology classes. He was married but delighted in passing me notes about how beautiful my hair was, how smart I was, and -- eventually, bizarrely -- that he was sure even my ovaries were beautiful. However, he knew no personal info about me, and though he became even coarser when rebuffed, he wasn't a real threat. I made sure nobody followed me home, though -- and by that time, my number was unlisted.)
I'd also keep a note of his description, a copy of this thread, a note of the time & date when he calls (if he does), and a record of what you say to him. If he doesn't get the picture after that, I'd ask the campus security for advice. They may be willing to speak to him for you or have other options.
Remember, though, that I'm biased.
Good luck!
[ November 02, 2004, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
vwiggin, this is why a guy will likely never have the same gut-wrench when they hear footsteps coming up behind them that a woman does.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Very good point on not trying to "correct" his version. Let him have his version of events. If he is a stalker, he seeks contact. Arguing is contact. Getting the victim to defend her honor is a common tactic.
I don't want to scare you - most likely this is done except for a possible awkward apology (which you can accept graciously if you are still perfectly clear about not wanting to see him). Just be ready if it goes past that.
posted
*takes note of all the advice* Really, everyone, thank you... I'm a little calmer now, and I'll remember all of this if he does try to call me. And I'll definitely keep this thread alive in case I need it later.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Hey, guys get that feeling too. We usually get it while downloading porn at the office.
Now I understand that when a girl wants me to walk her to the parking lot, she's not necessarily into me. She just wants some portection. Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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This book is almost unique in it's ability to teach people how to protect themselves without generating unnecessary fear. It's not about being paranoid or taking 100 precautions against a thousand hypotheticals.
It's about trusting intuition and harnessing your natural survival skills.
posted
Vwiggin, I'm glad you could learn something from all of this.
Dag, thanks for the recommendation... I'll have to look in the library tomorrow and see if they have that.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
What bothers me is that he either didn't pick up on or ignored some very serious signals from her. He held her to him as she was trying to pull away -- and this was a woman he just met, within the last hour.
For whatever reason, he doesn't abide by the same social conventions as the rest of us. Doesn't matter if he was fantasizing, or just trying his power on for size, or whatever. Regardless, it is inexcusable behavior.
The hardest part about being blunt is that you don't give reasons or excuses. We usually give reasons or excuses when we decline an invitation or another person, precisely so they can avoid taking it personally. "It wasn't me, it was just that she was busy right then."
You can't do that, here. Like Dag said, one time straight and clear, no reasons or excuses. Then you involve backup.
I hate that I see the world this way, but I do. The alternative is so wretched as to be unbearable.
Eventually, Raia, you will learn to give off some instinctive "unh-uh, back off buster" vibes. It comes with the way you walk, the way you hold your head, the significant pauses when you speak, the lack of an upward-rising inflection in your voice. (Young women often speak a statement as if it were a question.) It comes with time, and it filters out a lot of the crackpots. It gets better.
[ November 02, 2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
This is one of those things where, if the part were being played by John Cusack, women would sigh and buy the DVD -- but, in real life, makes you quickly aware that not all boundaries are bad things.
posted
I think of it as a social contract gone wrong. Girls are to be always nice, always considerate, smooth over any awkwardness in social relations, and not scare the boys. In return, they act like gentlemen.
Some men are unaware of or choose to ignore their side of that particular social contract. Despite that, girls are often still held to their side. That's such baloney.
You have no obligation to smooth anything over or make sure he's not damaged. He's so much older, he was looking for someone who didn't know enough yet to fight back.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I think some of this may have been because of the differences in cultures (remember, she is going to school in Israel). I agree that what he did was not appropriate and I'm really sorry that it happened. I know firsthand how scary unwanted advances in an isolated place can be. But I'm glad that you were able to learn an important lesson without any harm coming to you. Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:This is one of those things where, if the part were being played by John Cusack, women would sigh and buy the DVD -- but, in real life, makes you quickly aware that not all boundaries are bad things.
There is a big difference, though -- you can pause or turn off the video. It isn't the same power relationship.
Just as, excuse me for being blunt, one may induge in a erotic fantasy of being taken by an unknown stranger, but would rebuff such a stranger in real life. One is the illusion of lack of control, the other is the real thing. One comes with soft light, just the right music, and any difficult parts discreetly blurred -- the other comes with trauma, STDs, fear, and post-traumatic stress.
I can see where the entertainment media playing to the fantasy could be confusing. However, I expect anyone of standard intelligence over the age of 15 to understand the difference.
(As I know you do, Tom. I am just trying to be clear. And there are many jokes, movies, and books that i no longer find at all compelling, unlike the fluffy-headed and sweet-hearted girl I was before college.)
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posted
*nod* I'm actually not only aware of the distinction but fascinated by it, mainly because I have real difficulty enjoying a fantasy about something I wouldn't want to actually happen to me. I know that I'm certainly an exception to that rule, but I often find myself forced to appreciate on an academic level the fact that some people might like to be stranded on a desert island with only, say, Kirsten Dunst for company, despite the fact that, when envisioning the same scenario, I have trouble getting past the very real problems of scurvy and what I assume to be Kirsten's poor hunting, gathering, and house-assembly skills.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yikes! Sorry that happened to you. That was scary. Cool to hear you're calmer, now. Hopefully this doesn't turn you against meeting new people, instead make you more cautious about it. Maybe you should wear your hair up.
posted
I'll just join the chorus of people telling you that Sara and Dag have the right of it. That this guy, within an hour of meeting you, tried to get you to a secluded place, didn't pick up on any of your signals, and then tried to restrain you is just completely unacceptable. If he attempts to make contact with you again, rebuff him in no uncertain terms. If he keeps it up, notify the authorities. What are the laws life for this kind of thing in Israel?
quote:vwiggin, this is why a guy will likely never have the same gut-wrench when they hear footsteps coming up behind them that a woman does.
I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate this. The truth of this was driven home to me a few years ago when my wife and I were driving around together one night, exploring. From the car we saw a fairly secluded footbridge spanning a little stream that crossed a walking path. Snow was falling gently, and I was taken by how pretty the scene was. My wife, looking at the same scene, saw it as a likely spot to be ambushed and raped. It was only after she said that that I noticed the blue emergency phone on the light pole next to the bridge.
God I hate that. I hate that any people, anywhere, should be looked on as prey by any other people. I just find that revolting.
posted
Yeah, the eight years older part changes the picture. Avoid the guy.
Unless he continues to try to see you it’s probably nothing to be excessively worried about, but you have no responsibility to smooth things over or make sure his feelings aren’t hurt.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I think you and I are currently in the same position, Tom. Literal realism has its appeal, though. It makes reality as compelling as fantasy, when the fantasy comes laden with the rest of the story.
BTW, I appreciate the irony of me being the one to be hardline about this. However, when this was an issue for me in my younger days, i couldn't even say h--l or d--n in private, much less make jokes about daisy chains in public. *grin But part of the power I yielded up to others was in the powerlessness I felt in regards to sex.
So, though I really should ease up on my inappropriateness here, it does speak of both my level of comfort about being taken in context here, as well as my own level of comfort about all sorts of power, sex included.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:God I hate that. I hate that any people, anywhere, should be looked on as prey by any other people. I just find that revolting.
Yeah. I remember crying when I was coming to terms with the fact that this is the way the world really is, at least in part. I was horrified.
The risks are always there, but as Dag said, you can learn how to make the fear a useful tool for you instead of being paralyzed by it. However, that means I can never just fall asleep in the sunlight in a secluded leaf-strewn area of a park. As sappy as it sounds, I really really miss that. I've considered adopting a lovely, strong, toothy German shepard to doze beside me.
Life also gets easier, as a woman, when you come into your own. Part of the unattractiveness of older women as prey is that they are not as powerless as before. It isn't about sex, really, or at least not the lovey-dovey part of sex -- it is about exerting power. Sex is a useful blunt tool for that, for those who have little else to work with. It is a even more effective tool if those you use it on shy away from the reality of it.
[katharina: I am striving to be more of the woman I want to be here. I have great role models. ]
Self-defense classes are awesome for developing one's own sense of power and a great workout, to boot.
[ November 02, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
It's impossible for me to say how I would feel, were I part of a class that was victimized in this way, but I think that if I were I would do just that Sara--get a big dog, a German Shepherd or Irish Wolfhound, and walk those secluded footpaths and nap in those parks.
Of course, I also have to admit that I'd love to have a dog like that now, simply because I love the basic German Shepherd personality, and am curious about the Irish Wolfhound personality, and find walks in the woods a lot more fun with a dog bounding along aside and ahead of me.
By the way, I don't know why I wrote the word "anyway" in the text you quoted. Meant to write "anywhere". I've corrected it in my actual post.
posted
I went for a walk my first Sunday morning in my new neighborhood, and I got followed down the street. I sat on the wall, pulled out my cell phone, and watched him until he got back in his car and drove away. I haven't been walking in this neighborhood since.
posted
Noemon, it's corrected. I haven't been ready to commit to the daily routine of dog life, but when I am, it will be a pleasure.
katharina, I'm sorry.
BTW, Sophie and I are going to practice a variety of "withering looks" before she hits gradeschool. I'm not going to be scaring her with the details why, but I want her to be as strong and assured a young sprite as they come.
She'll be able to flatten a predator with a glance. She's got the grunt down pat already. Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
It's important to be able to flatten anyone. I think...what I wish I'd had was the knowledge that that kind of self-assurance was attractive. It seemed too often that I had the choice of being self-assured or being liked, and it's hard to keep choosing to be unattractive.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I grew up out in the country. When I was pretty little it was just a remote little community peopled mostly by farmers, but in the mid 70s the Corpse of Engineers built a lake nearby, and we started getting more traffic from people driving through the town (and I use town loosely--there were probably 40 people or so who lived there, all told, and that's a high estimate) on the way to the beach or the boat docks. It was a rural enough area that my parents didn't worry too much about my running around wherever I wanted, and I remember once, when I was about 8 or so, sitting on a circular planter thing that had recently been built in front of the little shop that had been a grocery before the building of the lake, but had since become kind of a convenience store. I have no idea what I was doing there--just kind of hanging out, probably having a coke or something and enjoying the feel of the evening air.
Anyway, a pickup pulled up next to me with a couple of guys in it. They asked me how to get to the beach. I told them that it was just a straight shot down the road they were on, but that it would be closing in a few minutes if it wasn't already closed. The guy asked/told me to hop in the truck and show them where it was, and my blood ran cold (no idea where my dogs were; I was generally surrounded by a number of them, but they must not have been around at this point). I said that I thought I'd just stay where I was, and the guy said that it would just take me a few minutes to show them where the beach was. I was pretty scared; I knew that there was no good reason why they'd want me to get into their car.
The planter I was sitting on wasn't all that well made--basically it was just a pile of rose quartzite poorly mortared together. Before the guys came I'd noticed that a grapefruit sized stone was pretty loose, and I'd been rocking it back and forth, loosening it further, before they drove up. When the guy asked me to get into his truck a second time, I said no, stood up, and while holding his gaze I very calmly (ever since I was little, I've always responded to situations where I'm scared or badly hurt by becoming almost ridiculously calm) pulled the rock out of the planter, held it ready to throw, and waited for them to make the next move. The moment seemed to drag on for an eternity, but finally they just drove off, and after they'd gotten a little way away I put the stone back, ran into a plot of scrubwood, and made my way home through it (I went through the woods figuring that if they were planning on following me that would probably foil their plan).
Standing up to those who would do you harm, meeting their eyes, telling them no, and letting them know that if challenged you will fight them tooth and nail can often make all the difference between being a victim and not. I was 8--they could easily have overpowered me, and I doubt that I could have thrown that rock hard enough or accurately enough to hurt them (although I suppose I could have dented their truck). It was my refusal to be cowed by them (well, visibly cowed--in reality I was terrified) that made the difference, I think.
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