posted
It seems to me that the grabber is the one who has the responsibility to be sure their grabbing is wanted before they grab, and to correct their mistake if it's not. If they go ahead and grab willy nilly anyway, then they don't really have reason to complain about precisely the method used to communicate to them that they overstepped. There's always the option of just keeping your hands to yourself, after all.
The argument about whether or not I have the right to not be touched in a way I don't like is one I don't ever want to get into. Talking about it invites argument.
posted
Yes, but not all touching is socially unacceptable. A technique that relies on dishonesty or pretense seems automatically suspicious to me. One that relies on violence, doubly so.
posted
Dagonee, why do I get the feeling that you've never had this happen to you, that someone bigger and stronger than you has grabbed you and touched you inappropriately, with little or no regard for how you felt about it or whether the touch was welcomed?
The person whose feelings matter most in this situation is the grabee. The grabber can keep his hands to himself or take his chances.
The beauty of this method is that there is no awkwardness, no hurt feelings, no unpleasantness or need to avoid that person in the future. It leaves you on good terms with them, which may be really important in the case of a coworker, or a friend of the family, or even a family member. And it works instantly.
It also teaches the grabber a very important lesson, and so is actually a kind and loving thing to do. Incidentally it does a service to society as well, discouraging this behavior from getting worse, or being applied to someone less able to respond effectively.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
((Raia)), you've been getting good but conflicting advice on what to do. Good luck sorting it all out.
The only thing I can think to add right now is, if you freeze up and cannot think what to do when you run into this guy, why not write out a short little script you could read to this guy next time you see him?
Along the lines of "what you did was inappropriate. [insert brief specifics.] I don't wish any more contact with you. Leave me ALONE!
Keep it short. I would say you shouldn't do it in front of a group, but if you are with a friend when you see him your friend could be a witness.
I'm unsure of whether or not to give him the script.
The reason for using a script is so you can decide beforehand what you are going to do and say. That way you can hopefully avoid freezing up at the critical moment.
Don't forget to keep the note with when you leave your dorm room.
Best of luck dealing with this clueless jerk.
quote: Women, while getting some reprieve from certain things that men don't, have troubles of their own. I can't think how many times in today's society I think how unfair it is that a man can get away with something, but the minute a woman tries, she gets blasted by the state.
Raia. Could you please give any specifics on this? Just curious. *prepares for avalanche of specifics from outraged female hatrackers*
I can think of many societal double standards, but when does the state blast women and not men for the same acts? Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Dagonee, why do I get the feeling that you've never had this happen to you, that someone bigger and stronger than you has grabbed you and touched you inappropriately, with little or no regard for how you felt about it or whether the touch was welcomed?
I don't know. Do you often get incorrect feelings? Or do you just assume that anyone who's had to deal with this would automatically agree with you.
I went through most of the first 18 years of my life putting up with unbelievable bulls*&^ like this, by people who knew I didn't like it because I told them. During the course of that time, I also had people stop because I told them I didn't like it.
quote:The person whose feelings matter most in this situation is the grabee. The grabber can keep his hands to himself or take his chances.
The beauty of this method is that there is no awkwardness, no hurt feelings, no unpleasantness or need to avoid that person in the future. It leaves you on good terms with them, which may be really important in the case of a coworker, or a friend of the family, or even a family member. And it works instantly.
It also teaches the grabber a very important lesson, and so is actually a kind and loving thing to do. Incidentally it does a service to society as well, discouraging this behavior from getting worse, or being applied to someone less able to respond effectively.
If the person is well-intentioned, the honest, non-violent approach will work. If they are not, then you can move into other solutions, including possible violence in extreme cases, very easily. I don't see "avoiding awkwardness" to be a justification for violence.
If you look around, you see lots of people who put their arms around people's shoulders, or give quick shoulder massages. I've never been comfortable with any of that - but a lot of people are, both giving and receiving. It's a social norm that exists, to the mutual pleasure of many people. I find it incomprehensible, but I ackowledge it, and assume good intentions on the part of those participating until they prove otherwise.
quote: I went through most of the first 18 years of my life putting up with unbelievable bulls*&^ like this, by people who knew I didn't like it because I told them.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It's extremely unpleasant and violating. I wish you had known my method and given it a try. It really works great. I bet you would have been free of that business for all those years. It took me years to hit upon this course, almost by accident, really. Once I did I wished I had known it all my life. It's so quick and effective and well-received that it's just a happy thing for all concerned. I think it should be taught to everyone as children. If it were, it would end bullying in schools forever, I think.
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posted
But it doesn't do that either. Because it's only used as a reaction to something that's unacceptable. Never in a preemptive way. And since it's one quick strike or jab followed by an apology, there is no tendency for it to start a fight.
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posted
I think you'll find you're dealing with a rather polite crowd, and in a setting that's not so dangerous.
There are a lot of people out there who are easily angered, and while many of them would respect a no in a calm state, would not respect it in an angered state. If you attempted your tactic, you would only end up in much worse trouble than you started.
I predict much better results can be found by first saying no, and then if that doesn't work hurting them, since it can become too late to say know if you hurt someone.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
The hurting is nothing other than an instinctive reaction to being violated.
This method has been extensively field tested and it works.
Without this method we see years of trouble, as Dagonee reports. With this method we see instant solution to the problem. The situation with far greater violence is the one with the years of trouble.
The only thing going against this method, in fact, is the idea that violence never solves anything, an idea that is, in real world real life sitations, found actually not to be the case.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Been tested and it works? Plus I rather think an elementary/middle/high school bully system is rather incomparable to on the job experiences.
You clearly have much weaker ideas of testing than I do. I suggest wandering the inner city bars and waiting for someone to make a move, then trying your tactic. Well, I don't, because I have a strong prediction that the results would be unpleasant.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote: Or even worse, leave it open for argument... "I was only teasing, sheesh! You are too sensitive." etc.
This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about! You accuse the guy and then they turn it around on you, making it seem like it was your fault, not theirs. Whether in the way you interpreted their action, or in the way you dealt with it. And so many of us girls fall into this trap! I know I did. Grrrrrrr.
Yeah, Trevor, I think it is definitely a cultural thing. And certainly our culture has changed to make it far more acceptable for a woman to be assertive. But unfortunately, in me, old habits die hard. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
It works in many situations, in fact. With bullies at school, with inappropriate touching in the workplace, and to end family violence. It works exceedingly well and extremely quickly. It's one event, versus untold years of abuse. And I repeat that it's never to be used unprovoked. And it has worked not just for me but for others as well, in a wide variety of situations.
I was told by a corrections officer that this is the smartest way to act in prison, too. In other words, to be kind and polite and friendly to everyone, unless you are physically bothered in some way, and then to respond with a quick violent response which ends immediately. (The apology is only called for if the person is purportedly doing it only in fun. If they're openly being violent to you, then you need not apologize. Just hit hard and then break it off, and next time you see them, go back to being friendly and polite and kind.)
quote: The beauty of this method is that there is no awkwardness, no hurt feelings, no unpleasantness or need to avoid that person in the future. It leaves you on good terms with them, which may be really important in the case of a coworker, or a friend of the family, or even a family member. And it works instantly.
Dag, I agree with Tatania. Whether we like it or not, and even though society has come *such* a long way, we live in a society where men deal better with women being "manipulative" or "subtle" in certain situations. Many men are appalled at the "dishonesty" of the situation that she has described, but this is just a fact of life for so many women. It just gets better results when you are dealing with creeps.
A skilled woman learns how to influence men in subtle ways--but hopefully for good rather than evil. ('Cause goodness knows, it sure can be used for evil!) Some (certainly not all) men respond better when he doesn't know they are being influenced. When they think it was their idea all along. Like in this case. The woman never tells the man not to touch her, he can massage his ego by thinking it was *his* idea to cut out that behavior.
But perhaps this just perpetuates the very stereotypes I feel trapped by. Change comes hard.
Has anyone else noticed that many men of the previous generation seem to enjoy making women feel uncomfortable? I mean with the way they joke and whatnot. Like they really like having control over women. Bugs the snot out of me!
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
See, what's really funny is that pretty much every guy I know would rather girls said no, and wouldn't be any more hurt by that than by being jabbed in the gut, in fact would be less hurt because they'd actually understand where things stood.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I wasn't clear - this wasn't a situation where they needed some clue that the attention was unwelcome. They knew it was unwelcome. The elbow jab didn't work with people whose intentions were bad. Speaking did work with people whose intentions were good.
posted
Here's a question: What would happen if we reversed the situation Anne Kate talks about. The man is being hugged from behind by a woman and doesn't like it. Is it acceptable for him to hit her?
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Of course! It's an accident! You just strike out of instinct from being startled. Then you apologize for hurting the person. How can that be not okay?
Is it okay for a women to come from behind a man and hug him when he doesn't want her touching him? To do it again and again when his body language and responses each time make it very clear that her hug is unwelcome? The violence in this sitation is being done by her, not him.
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posted
But you're NOT striking as an accident. You're purposefully hitting and acting like it's an accident.
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posted
I never can understand this attitude, that people would be so concerned for the possibility of causing any sort of pain to the aggressor that they would counsel the victim to act in a way that basically allows the aggression to continue, often for years, with no end. That is the thing that I see as being a mistake. The wrong idea that violence can never ever be the LEAST violent way of solving a problem. In fact, if used correctly, it often is. AND, it is doing a kindness to the aggressor as well, by training them out of such behavior.
posted
I get picked on a lot by guys because I'm so short, and not very strong, so I can't fight back very well.
I've had a guy pick me up "to see how heavy I was", but he wasn't expecting me to kick him when he did. He's only picked me up once since, and I punched him after he put me down (that time was on purpose). He didn't think I could hit him that hard, either. He still pokes me in the side or tickles me when he walks by, I haven't figured out how to get him to stop that yet.
Then there's another guy I work with who asked me once "Are you stressed out? Do you want me to rub your shoulders? But I guess that's harassment." He was joking around about it, but at least he knew it was inappropriate and didn't harass me.
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posted
Who's concerned about them? I'm concerned for your well being if you continue with this strategy. It likely works on the guys you hang around with, but try it on the wrong guy once and you're in serious trouble, whereas if you say no, and when that doesn't work respond appropriately (using all necessary means of getting out of his grip, then getting away), you'll avoid harm to yourself in a greater percentage of circumstances. Your concern with "hurting someone's feelings" (though you completely misunderstand how most guy's feelings work) over your own wellbeing and the wellbeing of the women you advise is stunning.
Also, you're still conflating bullying with romantic advances -- and while one may attempt to bullying someone into romance, bullying as its own end is completely different.
quote:I never can understand this attitude, that people would be so concerned for the possibility of causing any sort of pain to the aggressor that they would counsel the victim to act in a way that basically allows the aggression to continue, often for years, with no end.
No one is saying the aggression should be allowed to continue for years. I'm simply saying that starting at violence, rather than working your way up to it, is not the optimal solution, morally or practically.
You've justified this method by saying it's less painful emotionally. Why would this matter given the quoted statement?
posted
I agree that this strategy (in most cases, perhaps not all) would not be appropriate if they guy has not already been verbally warned clearly not to do what he is doing.
I will tell a story from my husband and brother-in-law. My brother-in-law likes to tickle people. Sometimes the people he tickles are other guys. Maybe seems weird, but to him it is appropriate behavior. Well, Porter would not put up with being tickled and told him in no uncertain terms on several occasions to cut it out. There was no confusion, Porter is blunt, to the point, and not afraid of being confrontational. Well, my bro-in-law kept doing it anyway. So every time he did, Porter would grab his ear and pull. He would keep pulling until my bro-in-law stopped. It took a few times, but my bro-in-law now NEVER tickles my husband. Sometimes pain works where words do not. And this circumstance was not serious enough to bring the law in.
We aren't talking about grabbing privates or anything specific enough to be sexual, we are talking about menacing or annoying behavior that is unwanted.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I'm speaking from the experience of multiple cases in which the aggression DID continue for years, and then was stopped instantly by a single application of this techinique. The idea that violence is never warranted and should never be used under any circumstances gave rise to all the prior techniques that failed, e.g. trying to talk about it or discuss the problem, reporting the problem to authorities, etc.
Another beauty of my method is that you will never have to have the discussion of whether you handled the situation appropriately or not. You won't be told that you overreacted, or that you shouldn't have turned someone in, or chastised them. You won't be told you're too sensitive, or that you should just have put up with the situation and enjoyed it. You won't be told that you asked for it. It will just stop. And the person will learn better. A happy conclusion all around.
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posted
If you've tried saying "I don't like it when you do X" to them before resorting to the elbow jab, then most of my opposition evaporates. But that's not how I interpreted your stance throughout this discussion.
posted
For the record, I've tried the "asking people to stop first and then escalating to violence" method. It doesn't work, because it can't be passed off as accidental, no matter how much you apologize. In their mind, they were doing nothing wrong, it's "all in good fun," or they wouldn't keep doing it after you've asked/told them to stop. So then when you escalate to violence, you're hurting them when they haven't done anything to you, they were just playing around and you're blowing it all out of proportion.
I would expect the guys in this forum to be appalled by Tatiana's method, because I would expect them to be the ones to stop when asked the first time. Or, most likely, not to pick a woman up without being in a good enough relationship with her that they're sure it's okay. But come one, picking someone up from behind? The only reason he wouldn't get an instinctive attack the first time is that most woman have been "trained" to surpress that instinct. So I have no problem with the artiface of doing it on purpose the second or third time.
Edit: The problem, of course, lies in determining if the guy will listen to your request to stop or not. Althought I've never used Tatiana's method, I agree with her assesment that she should be in control of who touches her. So why, when he is not following the rules of polite society, should she be expected to?
posted
*Sighs contentedly* The difference in male/female methods of communication in different societys is what Im studdying in sociology right now. Emotional Management is culturely used more by females in our society (I suspect Isrial is the same way). Raia, our society has tougt you to try and do things with out hurting someones feeling or directly asking, espesually if their male (this is a grotesce simplification of what i have been learning). But in this case you really cant do that... its not working. You have our suggestions here. Please do something, have some plan of action.... and please get some help at the health center.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
As a guy I don't have much problem with Tatiana's approach. The problem for a guy's perpective is what happens when the touchy-feely person is a girl and when its guy touching another guy the possible problems. For example, once out of pure reaction from a guy trying to take a stapler from me, my hand swung up and the stapler hit him in the head. In response I got stitches from the gash on my head that resulted from being shoved into the nearby filing cabinet.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
But there are guys who just naturally are like that. Many people down here greet with a hug. On our speech team, theres a really nice guy who's response to seeing anyone on the team looking stressed is to start to rub their neck. It's not a come on, its just how he is. And if I were to hit him for doing that, without warning, when he's just trying to be nice, it would be totally unacceptable. People ought to be given a chance to stop before assuming they're not going to respond to anything but pain.
Also, seems to me like a lot of the hitting is to avoid people saying the girl is over reacting. Frankly, hitting someone to avoid societal stigma does not strike me as acceptable, when just telling them to stop would work, the person just doesn't want to be told they're over reacting.
That said, I've hit guys before to make them stop doing things. In middle school, at least I did. Now, I find other methods are much more effective. There are situations in which I would now, but they're few, and if there were other options, mostly I don't.
posted
I'm coming in to this discussion late. But from the guys point of view, I dunno I'm a fairly touchy guy. I give people hugs all the time, when they are looking down hugging is one of my responses. I pat people on the back, jokingly pat or bonk people on the head, tickle people. Specially when people squeak o:-). Its just how I am. Its not any sort of come on, a) I have a girlfriend who I couldn't be happier with and b) I do the same things to guys and girls. When people seriously tell me to not do something, cuase it bothers them, I stop. It doesn't effect my friendship with the person at all, I just don't do that to them. And I can understand that completely cause I used to hate being hugged or touched by anyone. So, I think just telling the person quite seriously: "Can you please not do that? It bothers me." Is a perfectly fine reaction, and if done right won't create any sort of stigma or akwardness. Just my 2 cents.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I can see both sides. One the one hand, we are often less clear in our body language than we believe ourselves to be.
But I seriously doubt Anne Kate is talking about those situations in which someon hesitantly pats a shoulder or a hand. I think the touching that triggers this much reaction is a far different thing.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I was raised to be an assertive woman (in a society where that is not necessarily the norm). I have been called a bitch on multiple occasions. (By my ex, among others.) And told, in many many more gentle ways that I should "tone it down," "not react so harshly," "understand that it was just a joke" . . . ad nauseum.
But you know what? I have never had someone touch me in a way that I disliked more than once. I reacted strongly and unequivocally (VERBALLY) made it clear that it was not ok.
[edit: weird! where did the last paragraph of my post go?]
Now, some of that is luck. If I had run into someone bent on being seriously nasty, I'd probably have either come up with another method to deal with them -- or wish I had!
posted
One person's strong and confident woman is another person's "bitch."
Never having met Rivka, I couldn't tell you which I'd consider her ( ), but just because some putz calls you a name doesn't mean he (or she) is actually right.
posted
And even if they ARE right it doesn't mean it is a bad thing all of the time...
I haev something to add...
I am one of those touch-feely people you are talking about. I don't do it with people I am uncertin about because I have made people uncomfortable in the past, and I don't want to do that to others.
If I tried to hug someone and they elbowed me it would affect me, and our relationship as friends, FAR more than if the person had pulled me asideand told em not to do it again. If asked to stop I would feel uncomfortable around them for a day or so, but I would never touch them again and it would all be fine the next day.
Now don't get the wrong idea...I don't just go up to ramdom people and touch them....
But here is one example:
I worked at B&N, ans there was a girl there named Jen (not the one I married), a young woman who was about 5' tall, and pretty small all over. Even I was bigger than she was, ans I am only 5'6"! I liked her a lot, not in a dating way but because she was funny, nice, adn smart...in fact she was one of the niciest co-workers I have ever had.
One day I was I the break room, and as I headed back to work out the door she came in. She moved to the right the same time I did, then we both moved to the left....then to the right again. We both laughed, adn then did it again!
So I said "Wait a second.", grabbed her by the arms, adn pretended to lift her out of the way.
She froze the minute I touched her, and I knew something was wrong, so I let go. She was seriously freaked out, even though I had not grabbed her hard and I had let go right away. I asked if she was OK, and she justwalked away, very quietly.
When I went over she was still a little freaked out..not because it had been me....we had known each other for about 10 months and worked 3 times a week together. She just had some really bad things happen to her, adn that brought it all back to haunt her.
I wasn't hitting on her, I wasn't interested in her that way at all....but just by joking around with her, pretending to "dance" I crossed the line. I felt horrible, and I must have apoligised 10 times, but it didn't see to do any good.
It was a long time before things ever got back to normal between us, adn she apoligised a few time to me as well, because she didn't want me to think she was freaked out by me, or for others to think I had done soemthing wrong.
If she had hit me, I might have shoved her....and things would have never been normal, adn we both would have been written up.
And I might have been pised off, so pissed that I might not have learned the lesson I did..that even if you are cool with someone, there are lines you don't cross without being sure it is ok to do so. And that even if you are cool with them , sometimes other things in their past might make some behaviors unexceptable to them, and it isn't your fault.
posted
Kwea raises another point - a hard elbow from a woman doesn't carry the same connotations to me as a similar act from a man.
Call it the last bastion of sexism on my part, but as a rule I don't hit women unless I'm in serious danger of injury whereas I'm more likely to respond physically to a man attempting the same thing.
posted
Kwea,I have a hard time imagining her hitting you without you realizing she was in distress. Or maybe you grew up with a lot of sisters who punched? That was a very valuable lesson you learned, though. I suppose there IS no perfect way to teach that lesson to the sort of guys who don't read body language very well.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Granted, I don't know Kwea very well but the simple fact is not a lot of guys read body language well.
We're just that dense - or since we don't deal with emotions well or regularly, we don't spend any effort learning the finer points of interacting with anyone.
I was out drinking with a gay buddy who had to point out that a woman was trying to hit on me.
Of course, he has to point out when guys are hitting on me and run interference, so it works out.
posted
I tend to try to treat other people like I do cats. This takes active participation and watchfulness, though.
Some cats will come right up to you and rub on your legs, purring. Even so, when I first touch them, I offer the back of my hand to sniff.
Other cats are watchful, kind of tense when you just look at them, much less get near them. (perfect example is Christy's cat) Those cats have to come to you on their own terms, and you never never want to sneak up on them or move their bodies around against their will. Even if you are permitted to touch them, it will always be on their terms, not on yours.
*shrug
Their bodies, their space. I haven't any rights that trump as regards any other sentient body in that way. I've had other people act as if their sense of friendliness or desire to touch me trumped my sovreignity over my body, and it was very unpleasant.
[ November 21, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Like many women, I grew up having more than enough of the copping feels while pretending just to be friendly. I got tired of trying to pull away and having someone hang on. Submit or make a scene; be nice and put up with it or be rude and be made to pay for it. Because you always pay for it, you know.
Knowing that there are people -- men as well as women -- who actively do not want to be touched in ways I might not anticipate makes me especially careful of initiating prolonged or deliberate touch. Of course, I still do it, but I always assume that my desire to give affection or friendliness isn't as important as their possible desire to be left alone.
For those who have a different philosophy, why do you do it? (Honest curiosity here.) Do you assume that you won't be able to tell if they want it, so you might as well dive in? Or is it that maybe sometimes people will like being touched by you even if at first they thought they wouldn't? Or something else?
(I'm assuming that everyone here understands that some people do not want to be touched -- hugged, lifted, squeezed, rubbed, whatever. This might not be clear to young children, but I take it that we all understand such wishes do exist for some people and may be very deeply grounded.)
[ November 21, 2004, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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A friend an I are waiting at the pedestrian crossing traffic lights talking and we don't see the lights change and a man and a female companion brush by us.
We suddenly comment loudly because we weren't looking at the light and the man turns and says, "I'm sorry I brushed passed you I hope I didn't get in your personal space or anything."
We told him it was okay, but the memory is very strong- as soon as he heard us he wondered if he had bothered us even though we weren't even talking about him. Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
CT, I've been thinking about your post and I think you're just asking the wrong people. On this website I would guess there COULD be people who still don't understand that some people don't want to be touched, and therefore try to touch. I would wonder why they don't understand that.
I would doubt there are many people reading this post who understand that some people don't want to be touched but insist on touching anyway. Or if there are, I doubt they'd speak up and answer your question.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I'm not offended, but then I also fall into the "no personal contact without a signed affidavit" category.
Most of which comes from a serious lack of social skills and the fact I look like a thug, which encourages a certain healthy respect for appearance, posture and personal space. Inspiring fear is overrated.
And oh my god(dess), at what point does it seem like it's ok to cop a feel? I mean c'mon, that's just tacky and intrusive.
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