posted
The only thing I can really add to all this is that you definitely should not be blaming yourself for this. You behaved like an ordinary civilized person ought to behave. It was the guy that was in the wrong here. If you blame yourself for this encounter, I can only see that leading to the conclusion that you shouldn't have been nice. I think it would be a terrible tragedy if you took the wrong lessons from this, and went around treating all guys as if they secretly wanted to do the same things this guy actually did. As a "nice guy" myself, I'm pretty sick of women who get cold and nasty when all I did was act nice, because they've got themselves convinced that because I'm a guy, I must have impure motives. Blame this guy, as an individual, for this. He was the one in the wrong. Please don't let it stop you from being nice to other people.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Raia, how scary. I think the age difference is a red flag. You have gotten some great advice here.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
It isn't your fault at all. Don't fee guilty or bad about it!
I agree with CT 99% of the way.
My one word difference is that at a young age, those who are 13-14ish (depending on the guy) it is somewhat likely he's just learning social norms in girl/guy relationships. My 13 year old guy cousin called me once upset because he tried to kiss a girl at a dance and she slapped him. He wondered why. It was his elementry school graduation dance, and apparently he had a crush on this girl all year. They had "paired" off, and he tried to kiss her during the final dance of the evening.
Maybe I'm biased towards my cousin, but he's a perfect gentlemen towards things. He just didn't know anything about guy/girl relationships. He called me up all upset, and wondering what he could do to make her not hate him. (He's now 16 and went to a prom with the same girl that had slapped him at 13 They went in a tractor. Rural farm town).
Basically, all I'm saying, is do what feels right to you. And don't walk around cynical about all guys.
quote:I think...what I wish I'd had was the knowledge that that kind of self-assurance was attractive. It seemed too often that I had the choice of being self-assured or being liked, and it's hard to keep choosing to be unattractive.
You pinned it. But as sure as I know anything, I know that anyone who does not find self-assurance and strength in me attractive is incapable of really loving me, even as a friend. Love means you delight in the other's happiness, success, strength, and beauty. So it helps winnow out the ones who should just be acquaintances.
However, this can be a lonely place when you are a young woman, definitely. And the alternative seems so much easier.
Have you ever read the international fairy tales gathered in The Maid of the North, kat? You would adore them! Someone who -loved- me gave me a copy when I was younger, and it's a favorite reread for me at Christmastime. We need more strong women in the world and more stories about the beauty of their personal power.
quote:In her two collections, Tatterhood and The Maid of the North, Ethel Johnston Phelps sets out to counterbalance traditional fairy tales such as Snow White where women are beautiful and passive or ugly and evil. The Maid of the North gathers folk and fairy tales from Scandinavia, Africa, Britain, Russia, Pakistan, as well as several North American Indian cultures. The women, girls, and female animals in these stories are bright, brave, crafty, determined, loving, and moral. They protect themselves and others; they can ride on the wind and choose whom (or if) they will marry.
Hatrack can be a place where we honor the strength of self-assured young women, the choices exerted by SAHMs, and the importance of intelligence and kindness. In this context, at least, there is a force against the darkness, yes?
quote:When the guy asked me to get into his truck a second time, I said no, stood up, and while holding his gaze I very calmly (ever since I was little, I've always responded to situations where I'm scared or badly hurt by becoming almost ridiculously calm) pulled the rock out of the planter, held it ready to throw, and waited for them to make the next move. ... Standing up to those who would do you harm, meeting their eyes, telling them no, and letting them know that if challenged you will fight them tooth and nail can often make all the difference between being a victim and not.
What a wonderful, wonderful story, and what an amazing view of you as a child. This would make a great children's book. Serious.
(((Noemon))) and (((katharina))) and (((Raia))), again
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Verily, absolutely. She should not be blaming herself, and she should not assume unconditionally that every man she meets is out to mess with her.
I think it helps to focus instead on developing one's own strength and self-assurance. When this comes across as congruent in voice and body language, someone who is looking for prey is likely to choose another. I bet Dag's book recommendation (The Gift of Fear) is great on this.
However, unless you want the women you love to be hampered from making good choices, I think (IMHO) you have to deal with their viewing every person that they don't know exceedingly well as a potential problem. It isn't personal -- it's more like checking the air in your tires on a regular basis, or looking both ways before you cross the street. You want women you care about to be appropriately wary, just as you want children to be appropriately wary (like Noemon, above).
There isn't anything worth getting from a woman that you can't wait to get to know her well first, not if it is a caring relationship.
Jaiden, yeah -- I expect different things of the 15 and older crowd than I do of the younger ones.
[ November 02, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
Although it's true that the coterie of people around one are less likely to find this attractive in a young woman.
Older, more sophisticated guys may get it (my David, for example), young guys with a lot of self-assurance of their own may get it (here I think of Irami ), but the sort of people -- male and female -- you are forced to interact with as a young woman often don't. It is often in their best interest of personal comfort to encourage you to be nice, not make waves, and not get uppity.
On the other hand, young kids often get it. I've set my hat at being the rakish and opinionated Aunt who my nieces want to be like when they grow up, at least in part. Hang out with kids, talk about what's unfair in their lives, and brainstorm practical solutions. A real boost.
And as we get more control over who is in our lives, we can chose to be in those groups of people where strength is a virtue. Hard to do, though, in high school and college, since you don't get to pick much who is in classes with you.
[ November 02, 2004, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
((((Raia)))) Well, I guess there's not much you can do. But if he starts stalking you, just tell him you know a guy who's willing to fly to Jerusalem just to beat the tar out of him for being so disrespectful of you. (That and I'd kinda like to see the place )
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I went on a sumer undergraduate fellowship to Arizona State University when I was 17. It was a good summer. I guess I got used to being independent. Or I fell into it very natuarally without realizing it and had major adjustments there after because it was hell when I had to spend the last year before I officially "went away" to college at home. I stopped asking for "permission" to do stuff.
Anyway, though my story involves this guy I met at the McDonalds in the student union. We ate lunch together a couple of times, and he seemed nice enough so I consented to going to a movie with him. I wanted to tell my roommate, where I was going so someone knew where I was but it was a pretty casual thing, and since the plans were made spur of the moment, she wasn't at the apartment and I wasn't able to get ahold of her. So I was on my own.
He picked me up, I got in the car. On the way to the movie theater he tried to not just hold, but fondle my hand three or four times. The first couple of times I simply moved my hand away. After that, I said, I'm sorry but I'm not comfortable holding your hand yet. He said something like, "Well I'm a very physical person and I do this with everyone." I returned, "Well if you want to date me you aren't going to do it with me." And he said (we were in the theater parking garage by that time) "Well I guess I should just turn the car around and take you back." And I said "Yes, I guess you had better." So he turned the car around and we went back. It was a very quiet awkward ride.
I give the guy some decency points since he did take me back to my apartment. I would have gotten out and walked back home from the theater even if it was a trek had it been necessary. At some point I believe I did mention that I was under age. On several other occasions as well while I was still younger than everyone else, to use that as a weapon, as far as discouraging unwanted attention. The problem was that the good guys, whose attention I would have enjoyed, were also acutely aware of the fact I was underage, and because they were decent, they didn't allow themselves to even view me as a romantic prospect.
AJ
(After I got back to the apartment though I suspect I had very similar emotional reactions to what Raia is going through though perhaps not as extreme. I called a good friend who listened and told me I did the right thing and it made all the difference in the world.)
posted
*hugs* That sounds like a somewhat scary situation... I know I'd feel the same way in such a situation. Men rapidly envading my walls makes me very nervous... And everyone especially Sara gave great advice.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
You write it, I'd illustrate it. Or at least give you illustrations to see if they fit your concept of the book. (And I am very cool with being turned down ... even if we were meant to be together ... )
Do it, Jake. It's fighting the good fight -- it really is.
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posted
Nothing comparable has ever happened to me but I regularly walk in the dark, and someone once told me that confidence; meeting passers-by's eyes squarely, not looking down, looking back behind you fiercely so any followers would know you knew they were there are all good tactics.
I agree that confidence and bluntness in any uncomfortable situation is, in many cases, the best tactic.
Sounds like everyone's given you good advice, metukah. Glad you're feeling calmer. (((((Raia)))))
It's true that cultural norms are slightly different in Israel, ludosti, but not THAT different! There's more acceptance of what an American would call pushiness; but this went WAY beyond that.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Sorry I haven't been responding to all this, I had to go babysit... (yeah, really what I wanted to do after the entire episode, take care of a six year old child).
But thank you, everyone. I knew I could count on Hatrack for advice and support.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Slapping is almost always a bad idea. It angers more than does harm. Generally, you will be smaller than the man in question, and if it gets physical your only advantage is the fact that he will not expect you to fight back effectively.
If you are going to hit, do it with the intent to put the person down. Follow through so they will stay down. Then get out of there.
It is a very good idea to take a self-defense clas to learn how to do this effectively. You still will be highly disadvantaged if it ever comes to needing it, but at least you'll have a clearer idea of your options and what gives you the best chances.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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The first time it happened to me, I was 9. I was already 5'3'' and a B cup. A 12-year-old friend of my cousin propositioned me beside the shed on my uncle's property (I had gone there go get something and he followed me). I said no, thank you, but he put his hands on my shoulders and pushed me against the wall. Thankfully, my cousin came by just then and he let go. I told my aunt and we never saw that kid again.
Men have come on to me aggressively ever since then. I was a DD cup by the time I was 14 (and I weighed 102lbs, so I looked like an F), and a lot of guys think that a large-chested girl is promiscuous. Since I learned at a very young age that some guys are predators, I was careful. Still, I had some very unpleasant experiences that I try not to think about.
This is the reason that I carry a firearm. I refuse to be a victim and I feel that that is the best way to defend myself. I understand that it's not for everybody, but I have peace of mind knowing that I can stop an attacker before he gets to me.
About self-defense classes - don't take just one. It takes 1,000 to 2,000 repetitions for an action to be translated into muscle memory (I'm pretty sure, but correct me if I'm wrong). In order to develop the skill and instinct that will protect you, you will need more than a 1-4 hour class. If necessary, take the same class over and over.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Oh, totally Mrs. M. I didn't mean sign up for one of those silly afternoon workshops. I meant take some kind of martial arts for a couple of years. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
*sigh* As I've become older I've realized how many guys actually do hit on blue eyed blondes, especially at gas stations. The thing is I never realized they were, until recently I was oblivious. Dying my hair red, was an eye opening experience as far as the difference in the way I was treated by guys in general.
I'm guessing it's slightly similar to the d-cup thing. God help you if you are a D cup blue-eyed blonde (Actually I have a friend in CA who is, and you should hear the stories she's got.) I guess it is a mixed blessing that they generally run screaming for the hills if they hear me say more than about five sentences and figure out what a geek I am.
posted
If you are a redhead they worry more about ticking you off because you might have a temper at least compared to a "ditzy blonde"
And with my eyebrows dyed I am an extremely convincing red head in appearance. Though I've never had the guts to make the carpet match the curtains.
AJ
Note: Don't dye your hair red on a whim the day before you are attending a redhead's wedding, where his entire family is also red-headed. You get mistaken for a groom's family member constantly by the bride's side. Even though the bride was my college roommate!
posted
I recently started hanging out with a lot of Muslims on campus. The men (these are mostly married grad students) are always wonderful about dropping me off exactly at my front door and walking me to my dorm after dark. I realized recently that I'm incredibly nervous walking around campus at night already. I can't imagine how scared I would be walking around campus at night wearing a head scarf. I really respect all of the women because they choose to wear the headscarves regardless of their fear.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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If you were single it would have been very romantic! Don't worry darlin. I doubt he'll be a problem for ya. Just tell him if he calls or you run into him again that you didn't realize his intentions and that you have a boy already.
I've been hit on in the most surprising ways and by some really strange people. It was scary at first but now if I'm not interested I just say "Thanks, but no thanks!" I try and look at it as a compliment.
posted
Wow, Raia, that's really scary. I'm glad you're okay. I think the advice you've been given here is wonderful (Sara, if I ever have children can you be an Auntie to them too?). I think you handled the situation just fine.
If you want to learn self-defense, I'd like to recommend Aikido. I've been doing it for a few months, and it's a great defensive martial art because you use your attacker's weight and momentum against them. You can throw a guy twice your size when you get good at it. Plus it's very fun.
Take care of yourself, Raia. You aren't obligated to be nice to scary people!
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I've been hit on by gay men before and I've adopted a similar "I'm flattered, but not interested" type of approach.
But let's be honest here, I can't say that I'd be any more amused than Raia if a guy opted to go straight to kissing at the bowling alley.
Or a woman I wasn't particularly interested in.
-Trevor
Edit: As for self-defense, Aikido takes a long time to learn to become practically proficient in. Since Raia is in, if memory serves, Israel, I'd recommend taking some classes in Krav Maga.
You may never need to use the skills, but for a practical, no-nonsense means of protection it's hard to beat.
How's the cliche go? It's better to have and not need than to need and not have.
posted
The context is different when you are a woman.
By statistics, it is men who rape (99% of reported violations). It is women -- who are generally smaller, have fewer defenses, and are trained to avoid being seen as aggressive -- who are raped (91% of reported victims). [figures from the Bureau of Justice Statistics]
Actually, among countries who gather statistics on rape, the US takes the cake per capita. Lovely.
With a context like that, I think it is understandable that guys may not get how pervasive and life-altering this is for women, and how important it is for them to be wary. The context is just light-years of difference.
Not to say that I think anyone being free of this weight is a bad thing. Goodness knows, I'm glad the men I care about do not have to think about this. Nonetheless, for a guy to shrug it off and say "not interested" has a very different range of possible outcomes than when a woman says it.
Of course, we say "not interested" all the time and in a variety of ways. Those to whom we say it are usually civilized enough that though disappointed or even irritated, they wouldn't dream of pushing the point in an untoward way. However, if someone has already restrained you or set off your bad-vibe-o-meter in some other way, I'd advise caution for a woman where I might not be quite so quick to judge if it were a man.
Different context. Still inappropriate behavior, though. Just less likely to be a harbinger of very nasty badness to come.
[ November 02, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
There's also a big difference between "being hit on in surprising ways" and being kissed against your will by someone who you're trying to get away from.
Telp, sorry to say this, but you are WRONG on this one.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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((((Raia)))) was the gist of it though. I hope you are feeling better.
I agree with dkw and eljay - I was thinking it was more a case of social inepitude on his part until you told us about the age gap. That moves things firmly to the *ick* side of the border in my opinion.
Whatever you do, don't feel bad about it. The guy misread the situation as much, and probably more than you did. You were clearly uncomfortable and he pressed on - not acceptable.
(I would give you a kiss smilie but I fear it would be inappropriate )
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God I hate that. I hate that any people, anywhere, should be looked on as prey by any other people. I just find that revolting. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah. I remember crying when I was coming to terms with the fact that this is the way the world really is, at least in part. I was horrified.
The risks are always there, but as Dag said, you can learn how to make the fear a useful tool for you instead of being paralyzed by it. However, that means I can never just fall asleep in the sunlight in a secluded leaf-strewn area of a park. As sappy as it sounds, I really really miss that. I've considered adopting a lovely, strong, toothy German shepard to doze beside me.
Since this is such a palpable and hard reality, why is it that this isn't a consideration when discussing equality of women? I never hear it coming up, usually because pay rates and voting are argued ad nauseum.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Domestic violence and rape are very commonly discussed as equality issues.
I don't think criminal enforcement is considered a civil right by enough people. (I know there are other important forums where these issues are dealt with, but I have the most experience in the criminal context.) The people who suffer the results of most crime are the poor, the disenfranchised, and those lacking power for some other reason.
Common law crime definitions still contain a lot of assumptions about human behavior that are really assumptions about male behavior. The model penal code and its offspring have a gone a very long way to cleaning this up, but the effects are still there.
posted
Justa, I've read your post a couple of times, and I'm just not quite able to make sense of it. It seems like I can almost put my finger on what you're saying, and then it eludes me. Could you explain exactly what it is that you're arguing?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Raia, you've already received a lot of reallly good and useful advice. I'm gonna add just a little bit to it.
Always trust your instincts. Always. If your slimy-vibe meter goes off, then get away from whoever's giving it off. Don't second guess it, don't bother trying to figure it out - just listen and act. No apologies, no being nice-nice, don't bother being polite. Just get away, and get away now. Protect yourself. Your safety is far more important than any potentially perceived social blunders.
Also try to stop things before they escalate - when possible. Someone else mentioned looking a perp in the eye - they're right about this. If you acknowledge their presence and behavior and stand firm in that you won't accept that behavior, it's much more likely to end now before it gets really ugly. Speak in short sentences with no explanations. "No." "I am not interested." "Go away." If they aren't getting the hint, speak increasingly louder and louder. Be a broken record - repeat yourself over and other. Remember, no explanations - you don't owe it to anyone. "That is not acceptable behavior." "Go away." "If you come any closer, I will take that as an attack." "Back off." Take up a defensive posture - feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent, hands up and ready to fight. Look and feel like you're ready to defend yourself. Make sure they go away before you resume doing whatever you were doing before. In other words, don't turn around and give them the opportunity to sneak up on you. If you have to defend yourself, do it to take them down. No polite little slaps. Hit to maim, preferably to knock unconscious. Hit with everything you've got. Call on all your inner anger and unleash it on the guy.
I took a weekend self-defense course (over two weekends, really) called Model Mugging. It's excellent. It works. And it doesn't take years to learn it. They advise taking brush up classes at least once a year. Short version of the story - I learned how to knock a guy unconscious in 15 seconds or less. Testicle explosions optional.
It's a sad reality that we need to know this, but that doesn't mean we should stick our heads in the sand about it. Face it as a reality, learn what we need to learn, and feel empowered because we do know how to protect ourselves. And live life the way we want to.
Yep, I think I'm done now. No, I'm not. One more thing. Raia, you did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong. There's nothing wrong with acting and reacting the way you did. You were fine.
posted
"Model Mugging" is a wonderful program - it was one of the first self-defense concepts to actually develop and use full-contact suits in training.
It also helped pioneer the concept of stress-training for learning combat skills.
If I remember the program correctly, the techniques are geared towards women with an emphasis on ground-fighting.
posted
Model Mugging certainly has a huge component of ground fighting - our legs are our strength, after all - but we're also taught to fight standing up. Well, let's be really clear - we're taught how to defend ourselves whether we're standing up, sitting down, on the ground, lying in bed, whatever.
And yes, they use Muggers. The Muggers are men wearing huge amounts of protective gear. It's necessary because we actually beat the crap out of them. The only way to learn how to defend yourself properly is by actually doing it - by practising all the moves fully, without hesitation, and with all your strength. If you do it partway but stop at the contact point, then in real life, you'll hesitate - stop at the contact point. With model mugging, you're actually beating on the guy to your hearts content - and they don't get injured.
The Muggers also use the same tactics as real muggers/rapists/etc use - they swear, yell, call names, and all that stuff. Basically, they don't want us to be frozen in a situation because we weren't ready. So why not get used to that part of a fight, too?
I wasn't sure if I'd do very well - I'm overweight and really out of shape. And I was sleep deprived at the time - hadn't been diagnosed with my sleep disorders yet. There was another woman in the class who couldn't use one arm because of abdominal problems. We had an 80 year old grandma. And we had a fifteen year old girl who might have weighed in at 85 pounds. Every single stinking one of us could do it.
One of the things they taught us was how to properly knee a guy in the crotch. When it was my turn, I ended up sending the guy a foot and a half into the air. Wow! Talk about empowering! From the ground, the 85 year old girl kicked her attacker, who was running at her, over her head to land four feet away.
I loved it. It was easily one of the best things I've ever done for myself. I lost a lot of my fear because of it. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Slapping is almost always a bad idea. It angers more than does harm. Generally, you will be smaller than the man in question, and if it gets physical your only advantage is the fact that he will not expect you to fight back effectively.
If you are going to hit, do it with the intent to put the person down. Follow through so they will stay down. Then get out of there.
While this is due to the fact that I haven't really been at Hatrack much lately, I had no clue before how much I like ElJay.
Raia - Regarding your comment about self-assurance, a real man loves this quality. Not only does it usually accompany competence and introspection (which a real man realizes = less work for him), but on a more primal level it's frequently a very tempting indication of how assertive one will be the bedroom. So, you know, it's not only cool, it's sexy.
The full realization of this generally only comes when you're well settled with the man you love and then all the men who find you attractive come out of the woodwork. At which time you lick your finger, sizzle it on your hip and remind the man you love how lucky he is, dagnabit.
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