posted
Quidscribis, I've never heard of that sort of defense class before... that sounds really effective. I'll definitely have to read more about that.
Ralphie, I wasn't assertive at all! That's a great deal of the problem, is I was just sort of following along tamely behind, and not figuring anything out until the last moment, and then losing all sense of coherence the moment he really started coming on to me. So I don't know if I'd really call that assertive.
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It IS highly effective. I haven't had to use it in the sense of protecting myself from a physical attack - not since I took the course, that is. I could have used the skills I learned much earlier. However, they don't teach only how to protect yourself physically - they teach you how to protect yourself before it even reaches the physical attack stage. Part of that is setting boundaries and not allowing someone to cross it even verbally. It helps you to see your boundaries more clearly and identify when they're about to be crossed. It helps you to learn to trust your intuition. It helps you to be more assertive.
It just helps. In more ways than I can even mention. It's helped me defend against verbally abusive people, even.
It's something that I highly recommend. It's a phenomenal program.
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They don't have it here. If I did do it, I'd have to wait until next year, when I got back to the states.
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Krav Maga. I'm pretty sure the college offers courses.
Anyway, I hadn't planned on commenting about your assertiveness or lack thereof, but since it still bothers you -
You. Did. Fine.
This was your first time encountering this situation and you were surprised, startled and mentally off-balance. All in all, you handled the situation very well.
If it happens again, you'll be better prepared to handle the situation because it won't be new or a surprise.
@The Proper Form for Kneeing a Man in the Crotch
Go grrl go! There actually is a technique to it beyond what people see in Hollywood flicks.
posted
It seemed to have had a greater effect on me than I thought...
Today, I had to pass by the cafeteria where he picked me up twice, to go to classes... Both times, my heart stopped beating until I was all the way at the other side, and I kept nervously looking behind me, as though expecting him to pop out of the bushes. Whenever I blinked, or closed my eyes momentarily, I saw the traumatic picture of him leaning over me like that. I didn't realize passing by the cafeteria would make the whole thing seem so powerful. The second time, I actually had to sit down for a moment, because the fact that my heart had stopped had made me very dizzy, and I was seeing spots.
Please tell me this'll go away soon. Somebody slap me and tell me I'm overreacting. Why is the impact this great? Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I don't think you are overreacting. You went through a traumatic experience and strong reactions are normal.
Have you told anyone you trust in Israel what happened? I think it is important to have physical people there who actually know what took place as a safety precaution as much as anything.
One of the horrible consequences of niceness being taken advantage of is that it's the girl that bears the brunt of the consequences. *hug* I'm sorry you had to go through that, I'm sorry that you encountered someone who was pushy like that. You're not over-reacting at all. I guess this is part of growing up - having to figure out that it's important to stay in public places. *hugs Raia*
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It won't necessarily go away soon, but it will go away. Don't try to avoid passing or going into the cafeteria in order to avoid the feeling, that will just make it worse. Confront the feeling, know you did nothing wrong, and hold your head up high. If you do see him, don't duck your head or look away. Stay strong, stay proud. Know he is a creep an beneath your notice.
I know it's easier said than done... but I've done it, and a lot of the other women here have, too. It gets better. Just give it time.
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AJ, I told my roommate... I wasn't actually planning on it, because I'm not crazy about her, but the minute she walked in the room she could see something had happened. So I told her. But I'm not sure she counts as a support pillar. She's gone half the week, and we're not that close. But I guess it's a good thing that she knows. Nobody else does. I don't really want to tell my parents... for several reasons.
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posted
This thread has prompted conversations with a few people, and so far every girl I've talked to has had it happen. For many, it was one of the first or so "romantic" encounters they had. It's happened to everyone.
Keep your head held high and pay attention to your gut (you don't "owe" it to anyone to be nice at the expense of your own comfort).
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*sigh* I wish there was someone else you could tell, for your own safety, that is around more than half the week. I totally understand not wanting to tell your parents...I wouldn't either and mine never knew about the situation I mentioned before. I've gone to some interesting extremes to keep mine out of my personal life due to the fact no one in my family respects any personal boundaries.
I realize it isn't the U.S. but do they have counselling services there or a women's center? Even just talking to someone in a peer counselling setting might be helpful, and you'd have someone else "safe" who would be aware of the situation just in case.
posted
I wish there was someone, too. I never told my parents either, and I'm still not sure why. I did, however, tell my dad about what happened last spring with the creepy neighbor coming into my apartment. He laughed, said he was proud of me, then looked at me like I came from another planet. Net positive, I guess.
posted
I don't know if there is... I haven't really had occasion to find one. But I honestly have no friends here whatsoever, not a single person I can tell about this. That's probably part of the reason I was so open with him, was because I was finally getting past wallowing in loneliness, and being friendly with someone. Making a friend. *sigh*
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I'm not nearly familiar enough with my professors to be comfortable enough to share this sort of thing with them.
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Hmm...I think there must be a counseling center - you're at a school, right? Most higher education places have one, especially when students live on campus. Is there a web site for the place?
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posted
Raia, It's common to semi-consciously relive shocking traumatic experiences. The cafetria probably intensifies your recall and provkes a full on anxiety reaction. You're not over-reacting; you're just going through an entirely natural reaction. Many other people would be doing the exact same thing in the same situation.
This could go away on it's own, but you might be able to help it go away by dealing with the root problem, which sounds like in this case a power or rather fear of powerlessness issue. Don't avoid the problem (don't sit around obsessing over it either) but take steps to regain your sense of power. The Krav Magaw sounds like a good idea, but there are plenty of other paths to take.
If you continue having problems, your college should have counseling available specifically to deal with what you're going through. Something similar has no doubt happened to plenty of other people on your campus and they know how to help you get over it.
I want to emphasize that this isn't at all a question of you overreacting or of you being weak. This jackass laid a burden on you that you shouldn't have to deal with. If you go to counseling, they're not going somehow magically make you stronger. You don't need that. They're just going to show you how to lift the burden, as right now, your normal stress reactions may be counter-productive for this.
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the folks here are right on target. You did NOTHING wrong, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of (this is why you haven't told your folks?) and this person essentially assaulted you. I'm sure your school has a security office - you need to make a formal report to them. You're obviously traumatized and scared. And before you tell me "no, I don't want to make a big deal by going to security" keep in mind that you had the presence of mind to say NO and run away. If this guy is a predator (sounds like he is to me)he will be trying this on other women at your campus and the next one may not get away as cleanly as you did. I hate to be negative, but experience has made me this way. You can't be too nice about stopping this from happening again. Please go talk to someone in authority at your school as soon as possible. You've done nothing wrong, sweetie. You have every right to protect yourself and your classmates.
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(((((Raia)))) You're reactiosn are evry very normal, and if you can get some kind of counseling, perhaps peer counseling that can help.
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Yeah, I don't know Israel, but I'd be suprised if there wasn't a women's center somewhere on campus where you could talk to people about what you're going through.
As people have said, your reaction is completely normal and something many other people have gone through. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It will most likely go away on its own, but why put up with it any longer than you have to? There are people out there who will be delighted to help.
To stand up for guys as a whole, I've had bred into me an atavistic loathing of guys who use their greater strength to try to dominate women. In my experience, they are all weak and cowardly. If I saw you in this situation and understood actually what was happening, I'd have been glad to take the guy to pieces. Any man worthy of the name would do the same.
You shouldn't have to, but if you get some training a la one of these self-defense programs, you could take one of these weaklings to pieces yourself.
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posted
There are guys who look for those who see vulnerability and see someone who is less likely to fight back, and then there are guys who see vulnerability and see someone to respect and be careful with.
The existence of the first kind does not preclude the existence of the second kind. Blessedly.
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posted
May I offer another view on telling your parents? You, of course, know them best, but check this out.
I had a summer job when I was about 14, maybe 13. I rode my bike to and from work. One day, I heard another bike behind me on my way home. It squeaked. I was on a hill, riding up... the squeaking got faster, and the bike caught up with me. While passing, the man/boy riding it reached out and grabbed my butt and then my chest. He rode on past, and turned the next corner, which put him on a downhill, and sped away.
I was very startled when it happened, and didn't really have time to react or get a good look at him. I was hoping it was an isolated event, and did not change my route home the next day.
I was at about the same spot on the hill when I heard the squeaking again. I tried to speed up, so he couldn't catch me. If I could just make it to that corner, I'd be on a flat section near a business, and could get away. No chance. This time as he went by and grabbed me I kicked out at his bike... didn't quite knock it over, but I came close.
The next day I went home a different way. Didn't say a word to my parents. I was very shook up, and embarassed, but mostly it was because I didn't want them to worry about me and not let me go out on my own anymore. I felt like I should be able to handle it myself. I thought they'd make me quit my job, and I wouldn't have my own money any more.
Years later, when I was an adult and out on my own my mom and I were taking a road trip together. It was at night, and we were talking quietly, and the issue of harassment came up. I told her about what had happened.
She asked why I hadn't told her at the time, and I replied because I thought they'd make me quit my job. She said they could have called the police, and had someone waiting the next day and caught the guy. Since he'd done it twice in a row, he probably was there the next day, too. The idea had never even crossed my mind.
The situations, I know, are very different. In mine the activity was clearly illegal. In yours, while clearly wrong, he could argue it was a misunderstanding. And you have no need or desire to entrap this guy, or way to do it. In my case, it would have been hard to put myself in that situation again, but how wonderful to see him arrested for it!
But my point is, your parents might not react the way you think they will. They've experienced the world, and they know that they can't shield you from everything. But they may be able to provide you with support and options you haven't considered on your own. And if I could go back and do it again, it would be worth telling just to have my mother hold me and comfort me. I was shaken up for days. I'm almost crying now just remembering it. Your first experience like this stays with you, probably for the rest of your life. You keep living, it's all you can do. But don't cut out the people who love and care for you most out of a desire to protect them or maintain your independance. It's not worth it.
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ElJay, I probably wasn't clear enough in my last post. I agree if she could possibly tell her parents it would probably be a Good Thing. But if she feels she can't (a feeling I very much understand) then she needs to take the initiative to protect herself, and tell someone else, and create an alternative dependable support network for a crisis. It isn't necessarily easy, but it is doable. Even in a place where you don't know many people.
posted
Oh, totally AJ. And I completely understand your reasons for not letting your family get too involved in your personal life. But I think you're probably in a unique situation. (Thank goodness!)
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That makes a certain amount of sense, but not wanting them to imprison me in the house and not let me get out (although a fear) isn't the only reason I don't want to tell them.
I can envision their reactions completely: My mom would freak out, and look like a house had fallen on her, scaring my little sister and anyone else she happened to come into contact with. She'd probably tell a bunch of people how I was "almost raped" or something, and then do her Jewish mother bit and not let me move without her knowing exactly where I am, who I'm with, and what I'm doing. My sister, once having been scared, would probably find out about all of this (at a much exaggerated version), and freak out too, and probably start crying, and I'd feel absolutely horrible. My sister is eleven, and shouldn't have to be exposed to things like this. Not only that, but my mom would start the whole "I KNEW you weren't old enough to be living out of the house yet... that's it, you're staying here. You're not ready to face the world." thing, too.
My dad would laugh... he wouldn't take it seriously at all, and start lecturing me on how I don't need to take it to heart like this. That would also make me feel utterly awful, not to mention an idiot, for being so affected by all of this. Later, once my dad had stopped laughing (though I would still be very offended), he would call me, and say that maybe it's more serious than he thought, that I should come home to my parents' house, for a while... that he doesn't think there's anything to worry about, but that I shouldn't do certain things. He would also have been lectured by my mother at this point, who would tell him she's scared and doesn't want me doing anything anywhere. He might not agree, but my mom is a Jewish mother... so he'd be persuaded. He would have a fabulous time telling all his friends about what happened to me, and then, not only would I get his goading, but all of them would contact me (or a few) with "so, I hear you were almost raped. Sorry. How are classes?"
I don't know if you can see why I don't want to tell my parents, but I don't. I really don't.
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posted
That is exactly how I thought my parents would react.
And you know what? They might have. I didn't tell them, so I don't know. And yours might, too. You certainly know them better than I do.
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posted
Wow. Fair enough. *hug* My dad laughed, too, when I told him about the incident last spring. I have no idea why.
I like the idea of the counseling center, though - if only to have someone else there in Isreal know about it.
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posted
But here's the thing Raia, you can use them as your safety net without them knowing it (I have with mine on occasion). Do tell them where you are going and what you are doing, even if they don't ask. Not necessarily all the time, but enough that they *could* track you down if something happened. And while they will always probably be paranoid, you will be heading them off at the pass. You will be volunteering so much information so frequently, that if you decide not to tell them something they won't think to pry (well they still might but you can get away with something more frequently than otherwise), because they think they already know everything about you.
posted
I don't think that would work. They just wouldn't let me go anywhere.
My parents are really insane, and really Jewish. They're not normal, like most parents. Have you seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? Toula's family in that movie REALLY reminded me of mine a lot of the time. It was kind of creepy, actually... how many similarities I found between my dilemma and Toula's. Our families are so alike that it's really scary.
And you know how she wasn't allowed to date at age 30? Well, I can date, but that same thing applies here, if they found out something like this, they would not just take over my life, but they would make sure it didn't leave their apartment.
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posted
Raia. My parents are a lot like that too. Here's the facts: If you are 18, you are a legal adult. They can't control you. You have to do the cost-benefit analysis for yourself. Do the benefits you get from staying on good terms with them outweigh the costs you pay or not?
I have no pity for anyone who isn't prepared to earn their own way in the world without parental support after the age of 18. I was prepared to do so to be independent and I expected the sacrifices to be far greater than the ones I actually made. (Though some might call living in Oklahoma a sacrifices) But I *earned* my scholarship to college. My parents didn't pay my way. I could have completely survived without them had it been necessary.
I paid a *huge* emotional cost trying to keep them happy for as long as I did even though I was basically independent. It wasn't worth it. Yeah it hurts that I'm not as close to them as I want to be, but the fact is I was *never* close to them. I wanted to believe they were becasue I *wanted* them to be normal like everyone else's parents but they weren't. When it comes down to it truly didn't care about what I thought nor did they respect my feelings.
Do I still love them yes. Is there still some pain there? Yes. Do I regret not letting them dictate my life when the costs got too high? Not for a minute.
posted
The whole thing though is IMO, if you want to live your life as an adult woman, independent of your parents you have be able to develop the networks of people outside of them that care for you. Hatrack is always here for you and I know you have good friends in Bloomington, but you have to be able to quickly create them in new situations like a foreign country. It's a survival skill. Not an easy one, but necessary for a woman in today's world. It's as much of a part of being an adult as anything else.
Lots of great support here for you. And I think katharina is right -- most women deal with this at some time. And I think most of us deal with others' responses that may not be as understanding of the impact as we would like.
While I appreciate the support of the Good Guys here that would beat him up for you (and I agree with katharina -- again! not surprising -- that there are many Good Guys, despite the bad ones), I think it is really important for you to be in charge of this. Who you tell, what you do. And I think Mr.Squicky was spot-on regarding the importance of you taking whatever steps you choose to establish your own power and safety.
You know, if you aren't up to looking for help, some of us here could do websearches or make long-distance calls to see if we can locate a place for you to go talk about this, or to find resources. Your name need never come it -- it could just be a fact-finding mission.
(((Raia)))
The shock and trembling passes with time and distance. you will remember this, though, when another young woman relates a similar tale to you. You will know what to say to help her.
posted
*sigh* I hope I wasn't too harsh. I do care about you Raia. My point is, that we live in a crappy world. There is always a certain amount of risk in just living. While it is perfectly normal to be upset by the traumatic event you endured, and you shouldn't have to have endured it. the only person you can be responsible for is yourself. We can't control the creeps out there. So you have to have a safety plan *for you*. And if you aren't going to tell your parents, than it is your responsibility to come up with your own action/safetly plan regardless of where you are. You will have to do it for most of your adult life anyway, so you might as well start now. Yeah, we live in a crappy world, but you've gotta protect yourself too. A lot of times a bit of selfishness is ok, cause no one else but you will be looking out for you.
posted
wow... I take a few days off and the world ends...
Now Raia... all i have to say is, Your parents are insane and your mom's Jewish mother bit is enough alone to prevent you from telling. And I'm here when you need me... and so is Rhegars pickaxe.
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When forcibly confronted with a situation in which you have little or no control, most people do feel afraid. That's a natural and dare I say healthy reaction.
But you have to come to terms with what you feel and why - and forgive yourself for being human.
As for the parent thing - don't tell them if you don't want to. There are plenty of pros and cons on either side of that particular fence.
quote: Ralphie, I wasn't assertive at all! That's a great deal of the problem, is I was just sort of following along tamely behind, and not figuring anything out until the last moment, and then losing all sense of coherence the moment he really started coming on to me. So I don't know if I'd really call that assertive.
My apologies, Raia. I misunderstood the course of the conversation. (I'm losing my Hatrack/spidey-sense. )
Still, I'm pretty confident you'll resemble my sentiment as you become more comfortable in the skin of womanhood. No matter how irrelevant it is to this particular conversation.
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quote: *sigh* I hope I wasn't too harsh. I do care about you Raia.
Oh, not at all. I understand. And I really appreciate all that you said, too! It made a lot of sense. Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Raia, my Hebrew (especially this early in my day) isn't up to decoding this page, but I think one of those links is for student counseling services, neh? (or are those all academic-related?)
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posted
Well, it said there's a "Psychological Centre," and on Har HaTzofim it's in the Maiserdorf dorms (which btw, I have no idea how to find). I might try that rivka, thanks... I don't know. We'll see. I'll write down the number, anyway.
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I once had a nasty run in with an Israeli classmate too. Rather than try and put the moves on me, though, he told everyone that I was madly in love with him (this was an international school, so the students were from all over.) I'd spoken to him a few times, would maybe have considered him a so-so friend. We weren't close, and I *very obviously* had a crush on someone else. Thing was, he seemed genuinely convinced that I was desperate to be with him and throughout two years of school, the rumor wouldn't die among his friends. I mean, long after I'd stopped talking to him, I'd still hear through the grapevine that I was after him. It was so stupid.
It's a common, but not at all nice, form of culture clash. I don't know how specifically we Americans differ from Israelis in this respect. Maybe we just give off different signals when we're friendly that these men think mean "I want so badly to be with you", but IMHO it's still an inexcusable arrogance.
My advice, for what its worth, is to start reaching out to your female classmates. See how they handle their relations with guys, and even ask them about this guy to see what their consensus is. Is he dangerous or just a loser with no social skills? Don't walk places alone if you can avoid it, even if it means tagging along with crowds you're not part of. American women are sometimes targets for... unwanted attentions, shall we say? And Model Mugging is great, even if you just read up on the technique. I took aikido from one of the guys who developed it and he told the story of one woman who successfully fought off a rapist after watching her friend's graduation ceremony from Model Mugging - she never had the class herself, just saw the methods.
I've got a patient (50 years old, raised in Italy, married) who grabs my hand and tries to kiss my hand and says inappropriate things when I see him in the office. I don't know what to do about him. NO doesn't seem to phase him much. I don't have to see him again for 3 months, thank goodness.
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posted
OlavMah, I *am* Israeli. I'm in the international school as well (we were probably in the same one actually... Mt. Scopus, Jerusalem?), but I'm Israeli. The guy was Israeli as well, he wasn't a student through the overseas school, he was just in the regular University. So much as the culture class thing makes sense to me, I'm not sure it really applied here, because we were definitely both from the same culture.
posted
It's sad to think that almost no girl will grow to 20 without having this type of experiment, in a more or less creepy way. *sigh* I'm mostly happy to be a woman but that's one reason I could desire to be male.
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posted
Well, then yeah, he's just a creep. Sorry, I assumed that when you said you'd go "back" to the States next year that meant that was where home was. I guess I assumed you were a dual citizen.
My international school was in the UK, actually. I'm afraid I had some not so great run ins with a few guys from different cultures, none of them evil people per se, just very... quick to read things the way they wanted to. I felt *very* foreign sometimes, what with my opinion that I should be able to be nice to someone without having them try and have their way with me.
It's too common. But there's nothing okay about it. You might also consider reporting the incident to campus security, or whatever the equivalent is. Because you are from this same culture, they should listen to you and take you seriously. (Emphasis on *should*).
posted
Well, you weren't entirely wrong. I did live in the states for a while before coming back here to study... and I am planning on going back next year, and I do mostly consider America home. But that doesn't alter the fact that I'm from here, and I'm well accustomed to the culture of Israel! It's in my blood, and my parents are Israelis, born and raised, so I get it from them as well. Not to mention that before I moved back here, I would visit once or twice a year, for a pretty long time. Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Okay, I was gonna say, your English is extremely fluent for someone who hasn't lived in an English speaking country for an extended period of time. Having Israeli parents makes you pretty darn Israeli, though. The country can't have been founded too long before they were born!
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posted
Haha, the country was founded AFTER they were born! My dad tells stories of the six day war (he was seven years old then), when the block of houses he lived in (where my grandfather still lives) was the only one in the entire neighborhood not to get hit by a bomb or something similar. *shudder*
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If I did do it, I'd have to wait until next year, when I got back to the states.
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I've very personal feelings about this topic. I'm not good when it comes to digging down deep for stuff. So I'll just leave it alone.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-- that there are many Good Guys, despite the bad ones), I think it is really important for you to be in charge of this. Who you tell, what you do. And I think Mr.Squicky was spot-on regarding the importance of you taking whatever steps you choose to establish your own power and safety.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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My dad tells stories of the six day war (he was seven years old then), when the block of houses he lived in (where my grandfather still lives) was the only one in the entire neighborhood not to get hit by a bomb or something similar. *shudder*
