posted
(Before I respond, I just want to say that the entire university internet system was down until about ten minutes ago, so that's why it seems as though I've vanished. But I'm here, and alive and well.)
I agree with the people who said not to link him to Hatrack, or to in any way affiliate him with it. If he is indeed stalking me (or even if he isn't, but if he still has some bizarre infatuation), I think that would be very bad. It could also progress to getting other people in trouble, besides myself, which is the last thing that I want.
I really am planning on telling him off next time he attempts to contact me, but he just keeps taking me by surprise. I know this is going to keep happening, and it's unlikely that he'll catch me at a point where I'm ready for him, but this is my first experience with this situation. Once I get over the initial shock of hearing his voice, or seeing his face, this will be easier... though of course I will try to get to the point of telling him to leave me alone BEFORE seeing his face everywhere becomes a daily occurrence!
quote: A thought to ponder. In my opinion this situation has already gotten out of control. One of you is going to control it. Will it be him or you? Will you let him keep "suprising" you or will you find a way to stop him?
This post, more than many of the others, really made me think... Bob, that's really true. I mean, of course, all of your posts made me think, and you all give me excellent advice, but when we get down to brass tacks that really is the crux of it. I'll let you all know what happens as soon as I can figure it out. Thank you, once again, for your support. Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Jim-Me : re-reading this thread, I saw you said that this kind of things can happen to men too. Well, I don't know. I mean, I trust you on that one, but in my entourage, nearly every woman knew such situation, and no man. I asked them, because I felt weird about this kind of experiment when I went to live alone to study in Lille, it happened, like, one a month or every other month, and I felt very afraid and miserable. It may have happened to me if I was male, but the odds it happens are very very lower if you ask me. Now, back to Raia : Take care, sweetie. I agree with everyone who told you to be firm and clear. This is no acceptable behaviour, period. And if the though has occurred to you, you did nothing, absolutely nothing to deserve that. This guy is a jerk, and you have no reponsability in this. (((((Raia)))))
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Even if it can and does happen to men, it certainly does NOT happen with the same kind of frequency or threat with which it happens to women.
Men are stronger, therefore, except in fairly unusual circumstances, would have no problem either defending themselves or getting away.
Personal experience? You don't really want to know. It happens. A lot. Far more than most men have even a clue about. I used to work in a hotel - graveyard shift - and I'd have men hit on me every single shift. During major conventions, I had upwards of over a hundred men hit on me in one shift. That, despite a wedding band on my finger and security guy guarding me. [/derail]
Raia, I agree with your comment on Bob's comment. That struck me as particularly pertinent. Good luck.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
And to make it absolutely clear : If I was male I would have to be homosexual to love my sweetie, which would make things much much complicated... So after all I'm happy the way I am. Being female has a lot of advantages too.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Jim-Me : re-reading this thread, I saw you said that this kind of things can happen to men too. Well, I don't know. I mean, I trust you on that one, but in my entourage, nearly every woman knew such situation, and no man. I asked them, because I felt weird about this kind of experiment when I went to live alone to study in Lille, it happened, like, one a month or every other month, and I felt very afraid and miserable. It may have happened to me if I was male, but the odds it happens are very very lower if you ask me.
quote:Even if it can and does happen to men, it certainly does NOT happen with the same kind of frequency or threat with which it happens to women.
Men are stronger, therefore, except in fairly unusual circumstances, would have no problem either defending themselves or getting away.
Don't be so sure of that, and it isn't always a male that is doing the stalking.
It doesn't take much strength to hold a knife or pull a trigger, or to run someone over.
Also, men get threatened in more subtle ways, or at least in non-physical ways as well. I had a friend who dated a girl name Tammy, and she was completely psycho. She ran us off the road, tried to hit us with her car, and called the police more than once making things up about Kev and me. Since she was a woman the police always believed her, even when we weren't even in the state she was claiming we had attacked her in!
I DO think that women have many reasons to be wary, and a lot of them are physically weaker than most men so they have to worry about things that the average guy may not think about often. That doesn't mean that guys don't get harassed, or abused.....and there is a particular brand of shame that goes with that that makes it almost impossible do discuss it if it does happen to you as a man.
A big guy can immobilize a smaller guy as easily as a woman, and while it doesn't happen as often as it dies to a woman, when it does happen it is far less likely that a man will report it or discuss it with others.
Or that he will be believed if he does.
Raia, I hope you take to heart some of the advice that has been offered here, and tell him how you feel about what happened. I wouldn't wait to run into him, I would set up a meeting about it, either alone (in a public place, possibly with friends nearby), or with the authorities if you feel that is warranted. Don't worry about hurting his feelings, or getting him in trouble...even if you go the the authorities he won't get in that much trouble, as long as you stop it now rather than wait until something else happens.
If he is pissed...I know I would be.... who cares!This isn't about him!
One way or another, waiting is not a good idea. Get this taken care of right away before things get worse.
posted
Thanks Raia. I'm going to be worried about you until you get some training and/or counseling. I think Dag (and others) talked about role playing exercises. Going through this with someone who really knows what you are going through and how to deal with these types of people is important. I believe you could find a way to tell this guy no forcefully enough. But if this is your first time through this kind of thing, I really hope you realize that you are not well prepared to deal with what is to come in the future. Sorry. Being blunt again. As I said, I'm worried about you. Not just with this guy, but with people who will try to pull this stuff in much smoother and coercive ways than he has. This guy's a boor but hasn't pressed as far or as hard as others will. What about someone with real power over you (a boss, a professor, and so on)? You need training.
Please get some.
Then practice on this guy.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Ok, I've got 5 dollars, only 1195 dollars to go.
(((Raia)))
You have no idea how crazy my big brother syndrome is going right now..... Listen to all of these people, get some kind of help, and while your at it, find a big, well built, gay man (so he has no interest in you) to play big brother and scare the poop out of this guy for me...
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I can understand the big brother feelings, but I think there's value in learning to deal with these situations without relying on a man to come in and beat the crap out of someone.
Besides, committing a crime (like physical assault) in retaliation just lands the rescuer in jail unless there's an immediate threat.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Come now Stryker violence isn't the solution to everything.... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . And besides, you're almost shorter than Raia is and hardly better suited than she is to scaring the poop outa this guy
((((((((((Raia)))))))))
You can do it, I know you can. Just imagine he is someone (I think we can both think of a couple of people to stick in his place who you wouldn't be afriad to just let have it) else when you see him next and let him have it. Don't worry about being nice, you're already so incredibly nice to so many people that I think you can more than afford to be a total bitch to at least one person who's been a jerk to you Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I might be small, but when i get that look in my eye.... people know to run for cover...
And i know that she needs to take care of this herself silly, I just know her nature and a little humor (and idle threats) can't hurt anything. But then again, if this guy lived in Bloomington, I think there'd be a line to kill him, with Alcon first and me second.
I still like the idea of a well built gay man to play big brother Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Or as I do, they pick you up and throw you in the pool so you can cool off for a while
And if this was in Bton... well I would be first in line, but it would just be to back Raia up while she took him out. And I doubt she'd need the backup. She's stronger than I think people, even she, think she is
I know we're kidding around, guys, but words like "force" and "make" probably aren't helping. Her life, her choice, her decision. You sound like almost as big of bullies as the guy in question.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
That's what everyone on this thread is trying to do. You included are trying to make her confront him, make her seek help. Does it make it ok if you don't use the word?
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I was using it tongue in cheek. I assure you, we would not be doing anything differently than all of you are if she were here. We'd be doing it as teenagers, because we are teenagers, and that's all the support we can give.
I get the impression that maybe because we aren't as mature as everyone else here, because our suggestions aren't as weighed with life experience, that the support we're giving, in our own ways is detrimental to Raia. Mainly I get this from Eljay, but it's been hinted at and avoided elsewhere in the thread. We love her just as much as any of you. I don't think that anything anyone's said in this thread will upset her. She's used to what I say tongue in cheek, she's been around it enough to know it. She understands Stryker's need to do something to the guy, or at least to say he will. She knows we're giving support in the ways we know how, and I find it hurtful that other people insinuate we're hurting her.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I know her well enough to know that if she were upset she would have told someone, and we would have stopped.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
My last advice was on November 3rd, blacwolve, and it was to suggest she consider telling her parents about what was going on. In it, I was careful to say she knew them best and it was her decision.
Yes, I think we still need to be offering Raia support, opinions, and love. I hope she knows she'll always have that from me when she needs it. I haven't said anything in awhile not because I'm not paying attention anymore, but because other people are saying it before I see the updates, and I don't need to add more.
I firmly believe what Noemon and Sara said... Raia can't do this for us. We shouldn't pressure or guilt her into anything she's not comfortable with. Yes, I think this is something she'll have to deal with again. Yes, I agree with dkw that it would be better if she confronts him directly instead of being "distracted" by other things when she's talking with him and hoping he'll go away. But it's not my decision. And I would never, ever say that if she was here I would "make" her do it. Part of what freaked her out so bad is when this guy tried to "make" her stay when she wanted to go, remember? You really think it's any better coming from her friends?
I'm gonna shut up now, because that's not what this thread is for. Raia, I'm sorry for going off a little, and feel free to tell me to butt out. I do hope you're doing well, whatever advice to decide to or not to take. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
blacwolve, I was writing my post at the same time you were. I'm going to respond via e-mail, if it's in your profile, because I really don't want to derail any further.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
*sigh* I love how we're discussing her third person in her own thread
But yea... I'd say I know Raia pretty darn well. We're joking around and hopefully giving her a good laugh (which goodness knows she needs) and a reminder that even though she's 5000 miles away we're still here for her as always. The same goofy people as before, and still just as willing to lend an ear, or a slapstick routine, or a big hug, to help cheer her up.
I'll be the first to admit I have absolutely no experience with this sorta thing. The most I've been able to do for Raia is lend an ear when she needs it, wish to heck I could do more. But you know, when something bad such as this happens the correct response isn't to just go COMPLETELY oh no and then follow it with lots and lots of advise. Humor is an excellent cure for many many ailments. And while advise is good, there is only so much that can be given and it can only be given so many times before it starts to sound like a broken record. A creative mind can come up with limitless amounts of humor, and a good laugh can cure many things.
Ok, I'm rambling now, and its 12:15 am here and I have finals tomorrow. Time to shut up
But first *picks up the little Stryker and dumps in him a pond* There cool your jets for a while hotshot.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I don't feel like anyone is hurting me at all. I appreciate the comments of each and every one of you. I realize it when you guys are joking, I realize it when you're serious... just overall, I can sense what you're trying to say (even if some of you may be more eloquent than others, and that was a complete generalization, not directed at anyone in particular). *hugs* Please, don't start to argue or bicker over this... it's really not worth it, I would hate to think I caused this sort of dissention. Different people have their own different ways of helping, and please believe me that they are all welcome, and they all do help.
That said... thanks again everyone. I haven't talked to him yet (I have no way of contacting him, it's going to have to be when he contacts me). But I'll definitely keep you updated.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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You and this guy started talking. He was nice. He moved too quickly and tried to kiss you. Then he called you, you don't know what he said, but from how he acted after he tried to kiss you I'd say it was an apology.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand why this has affected you so deeply.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
You misunderstand what happened. A guy, much older than she is, intentionally took her to an isolated place, started fondling her hair, put his arm around her waist, and restrained her from leaving when she both pulled away and told him she wanted to leave. When she did manage to pull away, and clearly was uncomfortable with the situation, he grabbed her again and tried to kiss her again.
There is nothing innocuous about the situation. While on the scale of bad things it is likely a relatively small bad, it was definitely a bad situation, the guy was definitely attempting to force himself onto her, and trying to be friends with him is definitely a mistake, as he will just take it as a signal to make another try.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
please raia, for this and other reasons go to the health/womens center. We can all use some counsoling. It might give you deffences to use with other guys, and in a different way your parents. So i still wish you would go, but ofcorse it is up to you.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I wasn't invited in the stryker attack plan??? He's too good of a swimmer for drowning him, though the lake is cold, not cold enough, the h-t said 50 today. Streaking down Kirkwood is not good, too silly, too over done. How about you spend one day not talking at all? That sounds painful for you or for I. (yes I've done it).
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Raia, thanks for being gracious. I would like to add that I agree with ElJay that we have no right and certainly not enough first-hand knowledge to do anything like force or guilt you into taking any specific action. I think I may have crossed a line here and I certainly have been acting rather patronizing while at the same time telling you that I have confidence in you. Not very supportive of me.
I am indeed worried about you, but that doesn't give me the right to tell you what to do or to scare you into taking an action you are either not ready for or (with your obviously better knowledge of the situation...and yourself) is simply not warranted by the circumstances.
I'll just sit here silently...worrying.
I am sure you can handle it. I'm worried, but confident. And rooting for you.
This is such an excellent thread. Full of such good advice. It is advice I wish I had access to this sort of wisdom and support back in the day.
I have been trying to put my finger on exactly why this sort of situation has always been so difficult for me. It may or may not be helpful.
I am not the most assertive or confident of people. I have vulnerabilities that guys can (and have) taken advantage of. I think it was in part because somehow I grew up with the idea that it was not appropriate to be assertive as a female. I have no clue where I got this "message" from, I can't come up with a specific source. But I think I am not the only female who feels this way. The feeling is so deep rooted, the feeling that if you are direct or forceful you are acting like a "bitch". In fact, the result is often that when I try to be "direct" or "forceful" I end up acting like a "bitch" because I am over-compensating for my weakness. Then I feel guilty for acting that way, and I am vulnerable to my own feelings of shame again!!
Some guys have a certain way that can make me feel very uncomfortable. But they are very subtle about it. I feel like if I were to be direct to them, they would play on my vulnerabilities by denying that they were doing whatever I directly accused them of. And I would be tempted to believe them! I would also feel shame for having "accused" them of anything. I am way too nice, way too accomodating. So much so that it scares me. I am so grateful that I am happily married and not "on the market", because I never learned to deal with this properly.
I don't know if this is how other gals feel here, many of you are such strong women who know how to deal with this sort of thing. I really admire that. I wish I knew how to be that way naturally. When I try, it always feels "forced". Perhaps I should have had counseling in my youth. Maybe I still should. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
(((((Bob))))) I don't think you crossed a line at all! Seriously, I'm glad you said what you did, some of your comments were really really helpful, and I'm still thinking about them. Thank you for posting what you did, and please don't berate yourself for being patronizing... first of all, you are older than me, and you do have more experience, so if you feel you have something to say from that tack, you don't have to sugar coat it because I wouldn't like to hear it in those words! Thank you for caring. All of you, thank you. I know I've said that too much in this thread, and it's starting to sound like a Miss America speech or something, but that's not my intention... I really am thoroughly touched that all of you care. Thank you.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
The strategy I finally found perfectly successful to deal with inappropriate touching by guys (be they family friends, coworkers, or whomever) is twofold:
1) Hurt him (make him feel sharp pain, don't necessarily injure him, though no need to be overly concerned about whether or not you do) and
2) Apologize profusely.
It seems like many girls have this problem. I know I did. And of course you can't respond correctly when they take you by surprise. However, this is a great way of dealing with those repeat offenders that you can be mentally prepared for.
At my coop job when I was 19 in college one guy would come up behind me and rub my neck. My body language would say "ewwwwww, leave me alone" but I felt like I couldn't say those words out loud. So he did it habitually. It was really icky and I had no idea how to stop it, or even that I was allowed to decide who got to touch me how and when.
A guy I worked with much later was in the habit of coming up behind me and jokingly wrapping his arms around me and picking me up. He ignored body language and other signs that I didn't like him doing that. I finally got him to stop by this method. The next time he grabbed me, I let fly with my elbow as hard as I could into his ribs. He doubled over and had difficulty breathing. I said, "I'm so terribly sorry, did I hurt you? You startled me. Can you breathe? Can I get you some water? Oh dear, I hope you are okay."
The guy can't possibly get mad when you do this, since it was just an involuntary response on your part. There is no social awkwardness in the situation (that he didn't create). It's much kinder to a guy to hit him than to say, "Your touching makes me very uncomfortable and if you don't stop it instantly I'm slapping you with a fat lawsuit," which would make him feel terrible. In fact, most guys who would do such a thing can take a hit fairly well and it falls within the realm of horseplay for them to get poleaxed. And you need not fear to meet him in the future, with friends or family, since you have not caused any sort of a breach between you.
But if you do that, he will never ever touch you again. His hindbrain will have been trained in the most rapid and efficient method there is, by the mechanism of pain.
Anyone who would touch someone without concern for how the person being touched feels about it is sort of on the level of a toddler going, "oooh, pwetty" and reaching out and grabbing the pretty thing. The thing that works effectively and well is to realize that and treat them accordingly. The next time he thinks "oooh, pretty!" his hindbrain is going to say to him "ouch!". I think it will train him not only not to touch you without your consent, but also other girls he meets in the future. I think it's doing him a favor, teaching him something he should have learned by now but didn't.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
In my experience, there is also likely to be a cultural component in this. Europe and Latin America lag behind the U.S. when it comes to attitudes toward women, so could it be that the Middle East is the same? Girls I know who have traveled to Europe seem to report a much higher incidence of "mashers" there than here.
Lest you feel that somehow you were to blame for this, realize that this problem is as old as literature. There are very old words to describe guys like this: cad, masher, etc. from at least as far back as Shakespeare. So realize that you are but the latest participant in a tableau that is as old as time.
Good luck, girl! I know you can do it! Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Without knowing you personally Bev, I tend to assume it's a cultural element as Tatiana mentioned.
Think about the kind of social reinforcement girls receive - act like a lady, don't argue, etc.
For a very long time, the image of a proper lady was one of a demure, almost submissive woman who stayed at home while the big, strong man went out and brought home the bacon. In pearls, if at all possible. The woman, not the man.
The times are a'changing, but "women's lib" happened less than a generation ago - in our parents' time.
quote: A guy I worked with much later was in the habit of coming up behind me and jokingly wrapping his arms around me and picking me up. He ignored body language and other signs that I didn't like him doing that. I finally got him to stop by this method
Did you ever happen to say, "Don't do that," or was all this communication nonverbal?
Posts: 720 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Nope. I probably acted upset and unhappy the first time he did it, I guess. Then the next time or two I think I froze up and said "hehehehe" in a flat dead way, to show how extremely unfunny I found it to be. And then when that didn't work I planted my elbow in his ribs. He took it very well, in fact, and didn't seem upset with me at all afterwards. We worked together and remained on good terms. There was no unpleasantness. But he never touched me again.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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But Dag's point is well made - women get frustrated with men because we don't get the message. Uncounted comedians have made careers on jokes about that.
Anyone hear the expression "well if you don't know what you did, I'm not going to tell you"?
Although granted, a solid elbow to the ribs does send quite a message.
posted
I think the principle that everyone owns their own self, their own body, and has total control over who touches them in what way when, is absolutely inviolable for any sort of civilization to exist. It's possible for anyone to make a mistake, of course. But people who push that boundary between "I don't know what you want" and "I don't care what you want" need immediate, unmistakeable correction.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Granted, but I've also known a lot of people who were casually touchy-feely and didn't quite grasp the concept of personal space unless suitably rebuked.
Once properly schooled, they would observe an individual's personal tastes, but their default setting for social interaction would still be set at "touchy feely."
But I have to admit, I've never come up behind a co-worker and grabbed them as a means of friendly greeting. I have, however, scooped up co-workers and run around the room with them - but it was in good fun and they did not object.
And I like to think I gauged their responsiveness to such an action on my part well before I attempted the tomfoolery.
posted
It also seems like speaking good "guyspeak" to me, when a girl does this. Many guys seem to loathe talking about things like interpersonal relations. The whole subject is just icky to them. So saying to them "the way you are touching me makes me uncomfortable" would embarrass them a lot. Or even worse, leave it open for argument... "I was only teasing, sheesh! You are too sensitive." etc.
Yet most guys have grown up playing football, basketball, and dodgeball and all sorts of games, wrestling each other, and so on. A nice painful jab isn't really any big deal to them. Nor does it preclude friendliness. Seems to me like lots of guys (if dense enough not to get the message earlier) would very much prefer this form of communication.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
The main thing I like about it is that it works instantly. They will never ever touch you again, I promise. Also it causes no social awkwardness and no grudges. There's no unpleasant residue. The apology covers that. It's simple and effective and it works great. I highly recommend that method to everyone.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
It's not done playfully. It's done more like an immediate instinctive reaction that you then regret and apologize for.
<grab> <jab> "owowowowowo" "Oh wow, I'm soooooooooo sorry! You startled me! Are you okay? Can you breathe? Can I get you some water? I hope no ribs are broken. Wow, I'm really sorry about that."
See? It's not playful and I promise you will not have to repeat the training session. One time is plenty for even the very most dense, because of how the hindbrain naturally responds to pain.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Being female has a lot of advantages too.
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Listen to all of these people, get some kind of help, and while your at it, find a big, well built, gay man (so he has no interest in you) to play big brother and scare the poop out of this guy for me...
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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*picks up the little Stryker and dumps in him a pond* There cool your jets for a while hotshot.
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Different people have their own different ways of helping, and please believe me that they are all welcome, and they all do help.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
