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They kind of did establish Inara when Mal was looking at the picture of her: "You entertained clients here! In this very bed!" I thought both Inara and Kaylee got more time than I was expecting. But then, I also felt like River didn't get enough time.
Was I the only one that was almost as depressed about the damage to Serenity as I was about Wash's death? Well not really. Maybe at that moment. I didn't really have time to feel anything about Wash's death until after the movie. Then I got really depressed. I thought about it for quite a while, it really stuck with me and I really felt for Zoe...and for us. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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greatjust great Narnia and Treason confirmed my suspicion that things were happening so fast that I wasn't picking up everything, at least not on the conscious level. And now I'll hafta force myself to go see the movie again.
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Yes, it's good. Much more than just a script-with-descriptions, the way most novelizations are. Yes, it came out a few weeks ago. It's by Keith R. A. DeCandido.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Mr. Universe. Some mention of who the heck he is and how they know him would have helped. The novelization beat the movie in this regard, I think. Suggested change: Change Wash's line from "I think we need to talk to Mr. Universe" to "I know this guy that can help" or something similar.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I don't know, Mr. Universe worked fine for me in the same way Badger did when he was first introduced. They know him from previous murky dealings in the past. I mean, the only way it didn't work for people who had seen the show is that we'd never heard of him before.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I don't know -- I think I'm with Chris on that one. Badger was always an easy character to grasp, but Mr. Universe doesn't really have any famaliar analogue for comparison. What he does isn't hard to get, but I think his character needed a bit more exposition.
I have to say I'm still reeling from the whole movie. I cried through much of the ending both for Wash and for Serenity. And then I cried on the way home for Wash -- Serenity was repaired. I still can't get over Wash. I'm shaken as I think how this is going to change my experience with my DVD's of the series. I don't think I would change it, but it's hard to express how much it hurts. Just thinking about it still breaks me up. I can't remember the last time I laughed so much and cried so much in a movie. I'm looking forward to seeing it again today, but it's going to be hard.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Like everyone else, I loved this movie too. But part of the fun of these threads is airing what bugged you. So, what really stood out for me:
What kind of crappy ass scientists realease something into the environment that's going to make 1/10th of the population go absolutely ape. Not a little ape, HUGELY ape. Nevermind make everyone just decide to die. Didn't they have, y'know, *scientists* on this team? And, considering 1/10th of 30 million or so people became reavers, everyone is looking pretty relaxed. Shouldn't those people have all been hacked and shredded and so on and so forth? They wouldn't have tried to run, sure, but they'd still 'a been eaten.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I really, really wish I'd waited to see this movie. That sounds ridiculous, I know. I promised my new roommate I'd go with her when she comes back from being away this weekend, but she still needs to see the last 6 episodes of Firefly first and I just couldn't wait. So I went myself, because I didn't want to miss the exciting first weekend with packed theatres and energetic crowds.
There were eight of us in the theatre. I was the only one there early. One person left after the first ten minutes and didn't come back. There were no audience reactions to *anything* at all, except a trickle of laughter when Jayne said "Well...I might." [survive] before the Reaver fight. I laughed out loud myself at one other thing (see below). I feel...cheated. And not by anyone, or anything, and certainly not by the movie itself, but I've been hyped about seeing this for so long that to see it in such a disappointing atmosphere was a HUGE letdown, though I enjoyed it immensely myself.
Now as for the deaths:
Who the hell let George R.R. Martin write the screenplay? Not that I think the deaths shouldn't have happened, but cripes! 2 out of 9 is a larger fraction of crew gone than I like. I didn't see either of them coming. I assumed Shepherd would join the crew when they went back to Haven, and truth be told, I didn't really know Wash was dead until the funeral scene. I thought "So a big log hit him in the stomach. They've survived worse. I know it looks like he's dead but Joss is just toying with me. Wash will wake up and somehow make the ship fly without engines and all those other important parts that got busted off, and meet up with the other kids later." And I wasn't trying to convince myself while crying inside or anything. I seriously assumed he was still alive, despite being a little confused as to why they all left him behind so easily but figured it was something to do with my not knowing what exactly the big log thing was and maybe they didn't have time to get him out of it. Or soemthing. I think also what confused me was that it kept running through my mind that I thought I'd heard everyone but Mal had signed on for the sequels if they happened, but apparently that was a fake report or else they're going to include a lot of flashbacks. Looking back now that I know he was really dead, I do think it was appropriate that Wash's death was BANG and over, because real world death scenes often *are* that sudden and as was already said, in battle you can't always stop to mourn.
As for the rest of the film, I think I need another day to digest it before I can say much. Simon's inconsistency from the series to the movie bothered me from the start, but that's been covered already by the rest of you.
My favourite lines:
"Do you want to run this ship?" "YES." "Well...you can't!"
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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From a stand alone movie point of view I can accept Wash's death, though not the majority of the 20 minutes that follows it, that to me looked rushed and smushed together. I barely even registered the fact that Mal and Inara were pushed closer together, or that Simon and Kaylee actually got together, I was still on the previous scene when the movie was being wrapped up.
As a stand alone, it's fine, but I think it's clear that his attempt at the end for an opening means he intends for there to be room for a sequel. And in that sense, I think it was a bad idea, or at the very least it was done poorly.
I think it was pretty obvious that all bets were off. Two minutes after he died they were trapped in a room filled with cannibalistic crazy people, if that doesn't signal 'all bets are off' I don't know what does. From the only two people I've talked to who hadn't seen Firefly, they were confused about Zoe and Wash's relationship. They didn't really see the husband/wife thing at all, and were confused by the way she reacted when he died, because in part, they didn't know her history as a soldier.
If they wanted to kill Wash, they should have done it in the room when everyone else was shot up around him. Then at least Zoe could have stopped for a second to talk to him, and him to her. Rather than 3 minutes of sadness and then a 10 minute "Look, everything is okay now, and we put River in the replaceable Wash's place, it's all good! Let's marry Zoe off again, and we're back to the status quo!" scene.
Edit: After reading Astaril's post. Alright, I can forgive even the abruptness and the lack of mourning in the immediacy after the battle, there was plenty of time AFTER the battle, and all he was given was a 45 second funeral that honored him and Mr. Universe on the same level. I don't accept that.
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BtL's scientist comment reminds me, I also have one serious gripe. Skeletons don't stay articulated when you take away all the meat. When will movie-makers *learn* this??
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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So ya didn't get to watch the skeletons get wired. Ya also didn't get to see the skeletons anchored onto the hull. Personally, I wouldn't want to see the flesh being stripped off the bones. And think it woulda been a waste of limited time.
You guys are complaining that they didn't rerun the entire Firefly series within the Serenity movie. Time-wise, it ain't gonna fit. For the movie plot, the viewer didn't need to know more than that Mr.Universe was an über-nerd. And the movie goer got considerably more characterization than that.
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It would take hours to wire together skeletons to look as articulate as those did. I got the feeling they tied a few bodies together, tied them onto the ship and took off, and the flesh would have been burned off by hitting atmo. The only argument is that they did spend hours doing it because they had to make it look like how Reavers would have done it, but I have a very hard time seeing Reavers sitting around intricately wiring together so many bones into the proper shape too.
"I say, George, could you pass me that femur?" "Certainly, Alice! Oh, and has anyone got an extra phalange? I seem to have swallowed one of these by accident in my ravaging cannibalistic fury just now." "Naturally, George. Happens to us all, eh, chum?" *nudge nudge* "Here you are."
Edit: Yes, I am blowing this two-second clip way out of proportion. I'm not really that upset; it's just that it *always* happens in movies.
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Or maybe not: eg there is nothing which says that Simon had to be upfront in his dealings with Mal and the crew. Considering how valuable information leading to the recapture of River would have been, Simon would have been foolish to expose any secrets -- ie those that he could have kept hidden -- to a group of strangers known mostly for their shady dealings.
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The sniveling Simon of the show was not the same flash back Simon we saw in the flashbacks.
Mal in the movie flat out told them that he and River weren't a part of the crew, which is the exact opposite of what he told them in "Safe" (that's the ep where they get kidnapped right?)
And for a lack of explanation, they didn't really explain where Book or Inara fit into the grand scheme of things. If I hadn't seen the movie I would have assumed Book was a smuggling contact who helped hide them, and they they'd never had a history beyond that.
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I got the feeling the Operative planned to disappear himself with no trace. And who was the second new character? Do you mean Mr. Universe?
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I agree that it is not an even trade. No character could ever replace Wash.
The Operative was set up as a great counterpoint to Mal. He is a believer in the wrong cause while Mal is a unbeliever in the right one. I'm glad Whedon spent the time exploring the Operative's character even though it meant sacrificing some screen time for the rest of the crew.
I can see the Operative coming back as a semi-regular character. Whedon is very good at reusing villains to great effect. For example: Spike, Darla, Hope, and my favorite, Lilah. (If you read the Serenity comic book you'll see further evidence of Whedon's recycling habits.)
Mr. Universe, on the other hand, was kind of a lame character. Did we really need this guy?
However, I'm not 100% convinced that Mr. Universe is dead. He strikes me as a genius who likes his privacy. I find it hard to believe that the Alliance could easily land on his planet without his knowledge. Maybe there were two robots in that room. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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As a stand alone, it's fine, but I think it's clear that his attempt at the end for an opening means he intends for there to be room for a sequel. And in that sense, I think it was a bad idea, or at the very least it was done poorly.
Joss has said in several interviews that he couldn't plan for a sequel, he had to write it like it would be his only chance for a Firefly movie. He certainly wouldn't mind a series of these, but when he wrote it was to be self-contained.
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"However, I'm not 100% convinced that Mr. Universe is dead. He strikes me as a genius who likes his privacy. I find it hard to believe that the Alliance could easily land on his planet without his knowledge."
Didn't he allow them to come so they'd pay him to trick Serenity into coming to him? When he was finished talking to Serenity, didn't he look at the Operative and ask for his money? Or did I misunderstand that scene?
Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
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That's a good point. Mr. Universe did ask for money. The most direct explanation would be that he intended to sell Mal out and had invited the Alliance to his planet.
There are other possibilities, though. Maybe Mr. Universe staged his own death knowing that the Alliance would never let him live. Asking for the money could just be part of his scheme to lure the Operative into believing that he is just another selfish criminal.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I would tend to think he's very dead. Partly for the reasons people have mentioned and partly because Joss don't play that. Okay, maybe he does. How many times did he resurrect Buffy?
Bringing back Mr. Universe would be dumb, though. He was a one-note character with questionable interpersonal skills who sold out the good guys, but helped out in the end.
He served his purpose. Bringing him back would be like doing cpr on a hamster.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Didn't we essentially see the Operative kill him or mention something about killing him and destroying everything? I thought he said "I'll take my money now" or something to that effect and then got stabbed. Maybe I misinterpreted it but I really can't see how. The way I see it is he got offered a lot of money and/or had his life threatened by the Operative so he turned on Mal, but then realized the Operative was the bad guy (if he was doing it voluntarily for the money - if he was threatened, he'd know already) when he got stabbed, so he left the message for Mal after the Operative left him there to bleed to death. I figure he was promised by the Operative that he and Mal etcetera would live if he cooperated, so he did, not knowing of course what River was or how important the tape was.
At least that was my take on things.
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I think the operative should have fallen on his sword as he told Mal he wouldn't see him anymore..."there's nothing left to see." I think was the line. He was real big on men dying when they failed and being a man about it. Why didn't he do it when he failed?
Posts: 601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:make 1/10th of the population go absolutely ape
I thought I heard it as 1/10 of 1%... but I could be wrong.
Re: Zoe and Wash -- early on, I heard Zoe refer to Wash as "my husband" -- it was one of those scenes where the camera's zooming around Serenity and she's walking around or on the stairs or something. (But yeah, I wish there'd been more character time for Zoe and Wash.)
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How do you know he didn't? He did say Mal wouldn't be seeing him again.
I would imagine that 1/10th of 1 percent is a small enough percentage that it could be missed in testing.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:That's a good point. Mr. Universe did ask for money.
Yes, but it seems almost certain that he was motivated by life-preservation, not avarice. The line in question was "give me my thirty coin," a sarcastic reference to Judas.
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I wish there'd been more character time in the movie; I suppose we'll get that restored in the DVD version. (But, I'm glad for as much characterization that we DID get.)
In some ways, the fast pace of the movie reminded me of Aliens II -- where you were given some sense of the Marines' characters, but where the main emphasis was on the action...
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:The sniveling Simon of the show was not the same flash back Simon we saw in the flashbacks.
I never saw Simon as "sniveling." I thought the series made it very clear that Simon was very brave. He had money, talent, and major guts to rescue River. In the pilot he was very composed and strong when he joined the crew. It wasn't until after Mal found River and Simon found out Mal was shady that he lost the upper hand, but he consistently stood by and protected his sister.
He was even willing to burn at the stake with her.
I think it was in character of him to punch Mal. Mal took his sister into a new and dangerous situation that went sour. I think he was in character when he rescued River. It was a carefully planned escape that cost him everything. He is an intelligent doctor who knows the science field. Of course he knew how to hold his composure to bluff his way in.
The facility was probably closer to his world then Serenity. I always thought his “snivel” like composure was due to him being financially broke and dependent on borderline criminals, not due to some character weakness.
I loved how the Operative recognized that Simon was driven by love.
EDIT [ADDED]: Remeber how strong and in charge Simon was when they took River to the hospital?
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Or the "snivel" was camouflage. When in the midst of people with dubious reputations, it's a very bad idea to posture "Bring it on. Make my day." I wouldn't have the slightest hesitation in cringing and sniveling if doing so provided a bit more safety for a loved one.
More importantly, Simon had a very helpless-through-possible-psychosis sister to protect. His only edge amongst obvious badasses is hiding his level of "when the going gets tough" competence... ...to spring as surprise should necessity arise to go against their will.
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See All you guys need to watch the movie again as much as I do. Hurry! Hurry! It could be months before they release the DVD to analyze.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I would imagine that 1/10th of 1 percent is a small enough percentage that it could be missed in testing.
And perhaps it took a while for the real effects to manifest themselves. Maybe initial testing showed that it took away aggressive tendencies, so they decided to implement it on a large scale. I got the impression that the population didn't lay down and die immediately.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Let's not forget that in the pilot, Simon refused to treat Kaylee unless Mal did what Simon wanted. That man is no cream puff.
I agree that given what we saw in the movie, bringing back Mr. Universe will probably not advance the story very much. But Serenity is supposed to be most of season two crammed into one little film. It is possible that Mr. Universe had a much bigger role in the verse than we imagined.
If we are lucky to get the TV series back, we just might find out more about him. As Shmuel pointed out, Mr. Universe did not seem to be acting out of greed. He could be another complex and interesting character. (Personally, I'm more interseted in finding out more about Book, though.)
Like most of you, I was under the impression that when people die in this verse, they remain dead. That is, until I read the Serenity comic books. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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So when's the release date for the next movie? As soon as it hits the 8 mil mark? *Goes to donate a few million dollars to Universal in honor of Serenity* *Extremely eager for next movie*
Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
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The fact that his own beloved Alliance broke his belief in "a future without fear and aggression" is what caused the Operative to "lay down his sword". Mal was just the messenger delivering the evidence.
Considering thalidomide, I can see very slow-to-arise longterm cumulative effects of PAX being missed. Or hidden, if recent behaviour by our own pharmaceutical companies is any guide to the future. Especially if PAX had a sudden exponentially large rise in pathological symptoms near the terminal state.
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Just curious, but is that move that the Operative did, the one that freezes your entire body, is that possible? Is there really a nerve cluster that if you hit it in the right way freezes all of your muscles?
Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
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No, see, it's because of thalidomide that it would have been caught. 1 in 1000 is still high, and long term tests would have had to be done if it was being globally released. They weren't idiots. Unless, I suppose, the powers that be ignored everything and pushed it through.
Meh. It's just something that irked me.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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But yeh, there are places you can be struck with sufficient force that it takes all that you can do to remain upright. Though its not exactly paralysis, ya just don't think about moving. Maybe you would be able to move if you took the hits during real combat: the hormone flow caused by the possibility of death can make ya do some incredible things. And I've experienced extremely-temporary paralysis after taking some rather stupid falls.
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I thought both Inara and Kaylee got more time than I was expecting. But then, I also felt like River didn't get enough time.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Well not really. Maybe at that moment. I didn't really have time to feel anything about Wash's death until after the movie. Then I got really depressed. I thought about it for quite a while, it really stuck with me and I really felt for Zoe...and for us. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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I know that Chris, I wanted the words! ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
just great ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
with a clone/android/etc body awaiting a download. 
