posted
As far as BoM references, the original BSG was produced by an LDS man and there were numerous LDS references (they didn't get married, they got sealed). So, it would not be surprising for some of that influence to still be showing up.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:That was such a humongous punch to the gut. To watch someone just suddenly lose all hope like that and have the light switch flip. Holy crap. It was like watching someone get hit by a bus right in front of you.
The weird sad-to-happy flip threw me for a minute, but as soon as she took of the ring I knew she was done.
(Anders Deathwatch starting now.)
--
I don't know how I feel about Ellen. I suppose it makes sense that she and Saul didn't have any children, though.
I'm going to speculate a little, so if you don't like reading that kind of thing, stop now.
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If Kara is in fact part cylon, then it looks like her generation could be "reborn" like the original 12 models (until the Hub was destroyed, anyway). She would be the "harbinger of death" because the Human-Cylons can reproduce, unlike the 12, so they'll take over eventually. That would explain why Leoben was so afraid of her, and why Simon took away her ovaries.
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[ January 17, 2009, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posts: 3617 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Was Ellen sleeping with half the fleet because she wanted a kid?
Where is Ellen now, anyway?
Wouldn't it be funny if the plant Roslin brought back had potent anti-cancer properties?
I agree that it's interesting they're not showing us continents. I bet it's not Earth.
How does a 2000 year old civilization fit in with the skinjobs being created by the decades-old cylons? My guess is the centurions stumbled on the technology designed by the Five and built the Seven. I'd argue that the Five are humans of a slightly different subspecies than the humans from the Colonies (I say subspecies given Nicky Tyrol). They really aren't Cylons at all.
If this has all happened before and will all happen again, are a few people presumed dead in the nuking of the colonies going to show up again at the end? For that matter, being one of the Five might explain how Ellen miraculously ended up with the fleet. It was sort of under odd circumstances.
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posted
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Seven were also originally from Earth, but whatever process catapulted copies of them deep into space also completely wiped their memories, leaving them on their own to join up with the 12-colonies Cylons and take their identities and their philosophies from those unfeeling machines.
The Five are special because their memories are (marginally) more intact, and thus they have the ability to find home again. I imagine that the Seven might have been some kind of initial test run of the technology that was really designed to save the Five from the coming apocalypse.
Maybe the settlers of Earth lost their spacefaring technology, so the use of this weird person-copying technology was a hail mary to try and survive the destruction of their world and find the twelve colonies ... much like the Galactica fleet is a hail mary to survive the destruction of the colonies and find Earth.
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quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: I don't know how I feel about Ellen. I suppose it makes sense that she and Saul didn't have any children, though.
Well, not entirely. I mean, Saul knocked up Caprica, yet Tyrol and Boomer never had a kid. Maybe the children can be born of different levels of Cylon?
I don't believe that there was no human civilization on Earth. Unless their archaeological excavations were significantly more detailed than digging the equivalent depth of a sandbox, there's no basis for saying that the last bones to lay on the surface = the only bones ever to exist on the planet. Tauron or Sagittaron will probably have similar remain patterns in a couple millennia.
I think I've got "Cally Syndrome" when it comes to Dee - I liked both characters when they had small roles, didn't like them as they were twenty-somethings with speaking roles in post-apocalyptic military, and I kinda miss them now that they're dead. Dee's death scores an A+ for shock value, though. Well played, writers. Well played.
Also, Bear McCreary's blog is fantastic concerning this episode. I highly recommend reading it, if you've not already.
Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Holy flippin ******!!!!! I totally did not see the fifth cylon coming! Not saying yet. If you have not seen the ep yet, it is on Hulu right now.
I don't think she's the fifth. I think she's a number 6. Just older. That's why Saul had that attraction to Caprica and why he kept seeing her face on her. This is just more misdirection.
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If it's not the real Earth, then why did the star charts match up? Why did Kara's Viper end up there?
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Dee was probably the only part of the episode that hadn't been speculated somewhere already. As for Ellen... I feel a little sick...
I really really really hope that the Cylons age and that she was an older 6. Of course, that begs the question: What age was Saul reborn at? It doesn't seem likely that he would be that old straight off the assembly line.. but then, look at Cavil... But don't you think Bill would have noticed if Saul had started out that old and never aged again?
There MUST be aging somewhere in there. Maybe the entire model ages as one so that they're reborn at the same until they start over. Perhaps the 6s only just started over during Ellen's life-time.
I have no frakin clue what's up with Kara, but I can't wait to find out.
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Obviously Saul wasn't born that old. Adama has specifically said that they met like 30 years ago, and that when they met, Tigh had hair. He's aged.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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One possibility I've speculated at is that Ellen('s model) is the final Cylon . . . and so is Kara. That is, she isn't the child of a Cylon, she's a younger version of Ellen (for a twist on the whole 'older version of six' speculation).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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So starting in March, there's going to be a canonical comics miniseries about the Final Five:
quote:"'The Final Five' takes place over a long, long time," explained Reed of the Dynamite comic book. "It's the story of how the Final Five came into existence and the cataclysmic rift that threw them into human society. It's about the original creation of the Cylons, and the conflicts with the humans and within the Cylon ranks that forged the characters we know."
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: I don't know how I feel about Ellen. I suppose it makes sense that she and Saul didn't have any children, though.
Well, not entirely. I mean, Saul knocked up Caprica, yet Tyrol and Boomer never had a kid.
He did, didn't he? What happened to that kid anyway?
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: One possibility I've speculated at is that Ellen('s model) is the final Cylon . . . and so is Kara. That is, she isn't the child of a Cylon, she's a younger version of Ellen (for a twist on the whole 'older version of six' speculation).
Kara and Ellen certainly share the self-destructive behavior. But I'm skeptical.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Well, he always has viewed Starbuck in very odd ways
It is just speculation, of course. I mean, at this point there are two basic possibilities (though I could easily be proved wrong): Either Starbuck is a Cylon, or she belongs to a supercategory of things that can come back from the dead (which might turn out to be all humans, given the right technology) that also includes Cylons. If the former, then either the count of Cylons is off (dissatisfying), or she's a different version of another Cylon, or Ellen isn't really the final one and she is (and I wouldn't put that past the writers). If the latter, they're going the "we're all Cylons now" direction. That seems particularly possible given there were people on Earth who haven't appeared as Cylons, implying the tech could be used to reincarnate more than just the official Cylons.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Carrie: I mean, Saul knocked up Caprica,
I'm unconvinced of that, btw.
So Doc Cottle is wrong? Lying? It was someone else?
Or maybe... Doc Cottle is the REAL final Cylon! Man, that would be awesome. Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
I think their "all" Cylons who get ressurected ala Aeon Flux through natural process of being born, but it got screwed up and they lost their memories. The point is that there probably isn't a final 5 just 5 that they know of, there could have been more, its breaks credibility that only 5 Humans on whatever planet that was would ahve had the connections to get zapped to new bodies somewhere.
So, two possibilities, Humans left "Earth" went to Kobol then left again to found the colonies, or Kobol IS Earth and the people left to found 12 colonies and new earth, or as per original, left earth went to Kobol but some came back.
So far the show isn't making that much sense and so i hope that it begins to make sense soon. If that WAS in fact Earth they were on, then I lose some respect for the show for there is so much they have missed or deliberately glossed over just to fabricate an emotional reaction. There should be beacons, morse code transmitions, bunkers broadcasting SOS, preserved timecapsuls and libraries, SATALEITS still broadcasting random crud, they didn't even show if there was a moon. There should have been a TONNE of information lying around they should have at least in desperation searched for clues as to what happened.
But hopefully that is not Earth, they didn't show the moon, didn't show the continents, just a ruined skyline and this is jsut misdirection but even then, you'ld think Galactica would make more of an effort in scientific curiosity in the least to figure out what happened, gotta be on intact library somewhere, one shielded database.
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I just rewatched the episode... and at the end when Saul and Ellen die via nuke in that building she says, "It's ok. Everything's in place. We'll be reborn again."
Everything's in place. The resurrection facility?
Could the Central Resurrection Hub be far far older than we thought? What if the Central Hub was the original, from Earth? Might explain why there was only one and impossible for the Cylons to build another.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I think the word Cylon is being used incorrectly by the Fleet. "Cylon" is a Caprican word. The beings of Earth are not 12 Colony "Cylons". The bones on Earth are called Cylon because they match what the Standard Seven are like. But what if, as was proposed before, that the 12 are all Humans from Earth... that they found the Cylons from the 12 Colonies and merged with that android race...that the Centurions didn't evolve into cyborgs and then into the humanoid models.
That the 12 actually surpressed the Centurions, via that A.I. inhibitor, to become one with the Cylons. That would explain why the Centurions have such a device in the first place... why spend the extra energy to make a machine with intelligence just to supress it?
The Final Five were rebels from this merger with the Cylons and joined the 12 Colonies.
Still wouldn't explain how they age yet the Standard Seven do not...
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: I just rewatched the episode... and at the end when Saul and Ellen die via nuke in that building she says, "It's ok. Everything's in place. We'll be reborn again."
Everything's in place. The resurrection facility?
Could the Central Resurrection Hub be far far older than we thought? What if the Central Hub was the original, from Earth? Might explain why there was only one and impossible for the Cylons to build another.
Yeah but, wouldn't some Cylon janitor wandering around the facility stumble into a massive room full of Cylons he's never seen before and wonder "Huh, who the hell are they?"
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Well, no, because the Five would have disconnected themselves not only from Cylon group mind but also the Cylon Data Stream that would link them to the Resurrection Ships/Hub. They would not, and are not, part of Cylon society at all. And then the Seven purged their memories of the Five.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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One god wanted to be worshiped above all the others, thus the war on Kobol began.
The Temple of Five, built for the Five Priests who worship the One whos name cannot be spoken.
The Final Five "Cylons".
The space between life and death... the Jump Drives... and the Cylon Basestar Hybrids who are linked to the Jump Drives... who know the mind of God and are driven mad by it. Who give prophecies.
The Head Beings... who also can predict the future and have been manipulating things from the beginning...
The Final Five are a red herring. They are not the real truth. The real truth is that some great power is moving and manipulating both the Humans and the Cylons.
What is it?
The Cylon God? The Lords of Kobol?
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Soooo... was the Temple of Five built by people leaving Earth for Kobol or from Kobol to Earth?
The Temple of Five was built 4,000 years ago. The Tribes left Kobol 3,600 years ago, and the nuking of Earth was 2,000 years ago.
So...if we assume Earth was the original birth-world of Mankind, not Kobol, then the Temple was built by colonists on their way to Kobol. The stay on Kobol itself isn't that long then, only 400 years or so till the evacuation and eventual settlement of the Twelve Colonies.
How else would the people of Kobol know in advance what the constellations from the perspective of Earth look like to put into the Tomb of Athena? Or the exact names of those constellations which the Colonies would be named after.
So the 13th Tribe must have already known of Earth, it's location, and returned there from Kobol. And if the 13th Tribe are "Cylons", of a sort, with humanoid and robotic models in a mix that would explain the time line of the nuking of Earth 2000 years ago. They had, yet again, another war with each other that destroyed themselves.
KEY: Before Attack (BA), After Attack (AA)
-(4,XXX BA) Humans on Earth destroy themselves -(4,000 BA) Humans evacuate to Kobol, building the Temple of Five on the way -(3,600 BA) Gods and Humans war and evacuate Kobol. 13th Tribe return to Earth and the 12 Tribes settle the Twelve Colonies -(2,000 BA) 13th Tribe destroy themselves on Earth
The show must take place in our distant future.
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quote:How else would the people of Kobol know in advance what the constellations from the perspective of Earth look like to put into the Tomb of Athena?
Guys, you realize that you're much smarter than the writers, right? I'm absolutely certain that they haven't thought this out.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
You know that makes me depressed, it essentially makes alot of speculation moot.
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Just discovered this via TV Guide. Haven't gone through it yet, but thought all of you would like the link.
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This a fantastic interview from the Chicago Sun Times that Ron Moore did about the Ep. Check it out, but I have one interesting tidbit to highlight.
From the interview: CST: That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?
RDM: They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth.
Okay, okay. I know that I am reading too much into this, but ins't that phrased interestingly? So BSG found the Earth they were looking for. The one discovered by the 13th Tribe. However....is it Earth....aka our Earth?
Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:How else would the people of Kobol know in advance what the constellations from the perspective of Earth look like to put into the Tomb of Athena?
Guys, you realize that you're much smarter than the writers, right? I'm absolutely certain that they haven't thought this out.
Actually, I don't think that'd be very hard to figure out, given their level of technology, hell even with our current level of technology. So long as you know where all the stars are, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to identify Earth's position via what the constellations would look like from Earth's position.
If you assume they could do it, the question would be "how did they know Earth was there?" rather than "how would they know how to define the address?"
But there was something else going on there than just science stuff. I mean obviously, there's something mystical working above and beyond all of this, that gave them the vision on Kobol of the constellations, and the constant visions along the way, and magically poofed Kara to Earth. There might be a Cylon related rebirth explanation as to why Kara's alive, but not to how she got from the swirly cloud to Earth, or for that matter, where she got the brand new Viper from.
I think we're going to find a really big mystical explanation for a LOT of our unanswered questions, and I think to a degree, it's going to be a letdown.
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posted
(maintaining the distinction of Starbuck as the one who disappeared and Kara as the one who returned)
We don't know with certainty that the body in the Viper was Starbuck. We know it was blonde and that it was wearing what appeared to be a duplicate of her dogtags and ring. But there was too much decomposition for visual confirmation, and now Kara's burned the body so I don't think DNA testing could work either.
However, I just had another weird thought. The Cylons harvested one of Starbuck's ovaries when she went back to Caprica. It's a reasonable supposition that Kara is a clone of Starbuck. Not necessarily a Cylon as we currently understand the term to mean, aka the skinjobs. But maybe the skinjobs have figured out how to adapt their resurrection technology to humans.... or in light of the fact that all of the skeletons found on Earth test as Cylon bodies, they've rediscovered the ability. And maybe the difference in genetics is just evolution? I don't know, the brain isn't entirely functional today.
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posted
the other four have just started to remember bits of their past lives, and are still mostly in the dark.
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quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Cylons can remember past lives. Kara can't. There's definitely something different about her.
I don't see this as a major problem - all of the five and even Boomer didn't remember their past lives initially. Not that I think Kara is a Cylon. I just don't think that a lack of memory of former lives is necessarily an obstacle to her being one.
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quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Okay, okay. I know that I am reading too much into this, but ins't that phrased interestingly? So BSG found the Earth they were looking for. The one discovered by the 13th Tribe. However....is it Earth....aka our Earth?
They showed us the continental United States at the end of S3, and then played All Along The Watchtower. It seems likely to me that it's an alternate history Earth.
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posted
Um... I don't think they'd go down the incest road.
The morning show guy on a local radio station proposed the theory that Starbuck is somehow Ellen and Saul's daughter. It would certainly add a new dimension to the antagonism that was apparent between Kara and Tigh earlier in the series, but I don't see how it's possible.
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quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Okay, okay. I know that I am reading too much into this, but ins't that phrased interestingly? So BSG found the Earth they were looking for. The one discovered by the 13th Tribe. However....is it Earth....aka our Earth?
They showed us the continental United States at the end of S3, and then played All Along The Watchtower. It seems likely to me that it's an alternate history Earth.
Maybe...and I am going this direction based on some spoiler info read a while ago that the Earth they discovered may not be the actual Earth. Since this earth is in fact the homeworld of a race of cylons, I am thinking that there is more here than meets the eye. The phrase in RDM's interview that is keeping me doubting is that they "christened it Earth." I think that this is the Earth they were looking for..the Earth of the 13th tribe, but that phase just keeps bugging me.
The news story from SyFy Portal about this. !!!Major Spoiler alert!!! But it really doesn't answer any questions.
posted
I seem to remember Starbuck's photos of the moon looking like our moon, but I don't know if it really was our not. I'm inclined to think that the planet they found isn't a counterpart to this one given the lack of identifying features and the evasive answer. However, since Starbuck's viper was found on the planet, that would imply that it's the same place where she took the moon photos. If it's "our" moon, then this is "our" Earth.
Unless, of course, she died on New Earth and got resurrected on Old Earth. Perhaps that's where the resurrection facility is. Maybe the Five were from Old Earth and were on a mission of infiltration like Caprica Six.
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posted
I'm willing to take Moore's word when he says that this Earth is THE Earth. I think it'd be a silly bit of misdirection to proclaim it is and then in the next couple episodes have it not be. Not just because of the buildup.
My question is twofold, after having thought about it a bit:
1. The nuclear holocaust was 2,000 years ago, why are the Final Five all less than 70 years old? I'll ignore the fact that they either were or weren't born to actual parents and perhaps programmed with fake memories. My only question is was their rebirth delayed 1,900 years? Or have they continually been reborn with no memories of all their past lives since Earth?
2. There was a planet full of Cylons, why were only five out of a planet of perhaps billions actually reborn elsewhere? Ellen said that everything was in place, okay, but where are the others? How they got across the galaxy to the 12 Colonies from Earth I think could probably be explained away technologically.
Moore says that all the pieces are going to fall into place, but I can think of another dozen questions off the top of my head that need explaining. I guess it's a good thing that the finale is 3 hours long.
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posted
Well even though we are in the final run of the series, I think that if we think that we are going to get all of our questions answered, we are being slightly naive. I think that we will get most of them answered, but there are still far too many more that they simply won't have time to cover in the remaining eps.
Of course the cool thing about this series is that you could wait another ten years and then tell the story again except with a new group of people two or three thousand years later in the timeline. BSG definately has the possiblity of an ever expanding universe.
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posted
I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of all things BSG, so I don't know if there's evidence already that would preclude this, but here's what I'd been thinking. What if the "final five" are more like parasites or symbiotes (aiuas?), and can take any body that's available?
And in this case, it wasn't that the four we knew realized that they were cylons, but that they became cylons at that point (after waiting 2,000 years for bodies to get near enough to "Earth")? Thus, in the flashbacks we've seen, they picture themselves as how they look now, but there's no guarantee that's what they actually looked like (residual self-image or something). The one who is now Tigh was originally married/attached to another, so he now assumes she was Ellen, but in fact the symbiote/parasite was actually transferred to Starbuck when she wasn't with the fleet.
This doesn't yet explain how Starbuck comes back, so I might have to fiddle with the concept a bit more. Or I may be so ridiculously far off that I'll get sent back to season one and told to pay attention.
Posts: 6213 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: Okay, okay. I know that I am reading too much into this, but ins't that phrased interestingly? So BSG found the Earth they were looking for. The one discovered by the 13th Tribe. However....is it Earth....aka our Earth?
They showed us the continental United States at the end of S3, and then played All Along The Watchtower. It seems likely to me that it's an alternate history Earth.
Maybe...and I am going this direction based on some spoiler info read a while ago that the Earth they discovered may not be the actual Earth. Since this earth is in fact the homeworld of a race of cylons, I am thinking that there is more here than meets the eye. The phrase in RDM's interview that is keeping me doubting is that they "christened it Earth." I think that this is the Earth they were looking for..the Earth of the 13th tribe, but that phase just keeps bugging me.
The news story from SyFy Portal about this. !!!Major Spoiler alert!!! But it really doesn't answer any questions.
I agree with your speculation. As twinky points out, they showed the continental US at the end of season 3, BUT they've been (seemingly) very very careful not to show any distinctive continents in either of the last two episodes. So basically at this point I am convinced (until proven wrong) that they are on "Earth" but not OUR Earth, which is where I think they'll end up by the end of the series.
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Ah, Dee.
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