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Author Topic: Battlestar Galactica Season 4.5 Thread
neo-dragon
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Presumably because it doesn't like to be called that?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
I can deal with a Sci-Fi story containing religion. I can even deal with them taking it seriously. What I can't deal with is when Religion is the Answer in a Sci-Fi story.
One of the things I was shocked to learn years ago was that normal people don't perceive a difference between science fiction and fantasy.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Why did Head-Baltar-Angel say "It doesn't like to be called that" when Head-Six-Angel mentioned God?

Foreshadowing for us to find out who it really is in some other source material.
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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Why did Head-Baltar-Angel say "It doesn't like to be called that" when Head-Six-Angel mentioned God?

Foreshadowing for us to find out who it really is in some other source material.
I still think that they're related to the Lords of Kobol. As far as we know, they're the ones that got everything started when they created humanity. It's implied that they are/seem supernatural, so it makes sense that they wanted to try to guide everything to a peaceful resolution.
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neo-dragon
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Then why the frequent contrast between the colonial's polytheism and the Cylon monotheism? I think we're talking about separate entities.

I also think "It doesn't like to be called [God]" and even Baltar's comments about "God" being a force of nature are meant to allow those viewers who don't want to buy into a religious interpretation a bit of a more sci-fi one. "God" in the context of BSG is really just as likely to be some highly advanced alien entity. I don't think that the Baltar and Six angels ever even claimed that "God" created humanity, just that he has plans for them.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Why did Head-Baltar-Angel say "It doesn't like to be called that" when Head-Six-Angel mentioned God?

That's because it is MORDAC! The great chess computron of Ramnon Prime!!!!

Few things I wanted to comment on:

Constellations: Since Earth 2 is our earth. Our versions of the consellations would be named for the stories of the original ones, but they would not be the same set of stars that they used to confirm the location of Earth 1. I would say that they would have the same configuration as the original ones, but I would highly doubt that our constellations would be same actual constellations that they used to find Earth 1.

Head-Beings: I don't think that it was a cop out at all to leave their existance completely unexplained. RDM left that up to us to decide.

I would say that for people of faith it would be fair to explain them away as angels, emissaries of an immortal God whose purpose is to provide guidance and influence through mortal vessels (ie prophets) to help mankind reach a higher purpose.

I would also say that is fair for athestists to see them as beings that exist in some plane of existance that has basis in science and fact. They could come from a race of beings from an incredibly an advanced civilization that sees a need to interfere in the civilizations of other races in the universe for their own purposes. Maybe those reasons are altrusitic or nefarious, moral or amoral, or simply it is all part of a grand experiment.

Either way, he purposly left them up to our own interpretation. Fun to debate to say the least. I think the more interesting question would be are both us of right?

Loose Ends: Yes they certainly did do alot of cleaning up this season, however I don't think that any of what they did was outside the realm of believability. Cally cheating on Tyrol, not unbelievable. Six losing the baby? Remember how unstable Athena's pregnacy was? Hera was a premie for cryin out loud.

Kara: I believe that RDM stated in his interview with the one of the Chicago newspapers that Kara was somewhat intended to be BSG's version of Jesus Christ, an allegory or origin of the myth as it were. As flawed as a character as she was, she did eventually lead them to their salvation on Earth. She even died and came back as part of the process. An event that could, within the context of the BSG universe, have a scientific explanation as well as a religious one.

I agree with what others have said in this forum. BSG rarely was about presenting answers, more about asking questions.

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Lyrhawn
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Yeah I wondered what that was supposed to mean.
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Mucus
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ricree101 and neo-dragon: I think that the colonial's polytheism was based on the Lords of Kobol. The Cylon's monotheism seems at first glance to be similar to what the Head-Six refers to as God but Head-Baltar disagrees (as to referring to it as God). Meh.

So yes, it seems like the question is very open to interpretation. But in general, the idea of a vastly superior race manipulating mankind is a theme that appears and reappears in science fiction from places like 2001, Star Trek, and B5. So thats why from a "religious" POV, I really don't mind all that much as an atheist.

quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
...
Constellations: Since Earth 2 is our earth. Our versions of the consellations would be named for the stories of the original ones, but they would not be the same set of stars that they used to confirm the location of Earth 1. I would say that they would have the same configuration as the original ones, but I would highly doubt that our constellations would be same actual constellations that they used to find Earth 1.

Actually, we already saw the actual constellations in the Tomb of Athena. They pretty much match ours.

Now with a moderate margin of error, I could see that the constellations could describe an area large enough to contain another habitable planet aside from ours, but the constellations put a maximum bound on the area in which both Earths can exist and it should be relatively small compared to the size of the galaxy.

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ReddwarfVII
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Actually, we already saw the actual constellations in the Tomb of Athena. They pretty much match ours.

Now with a moderate margin of error, I could see that the constellations could describe an area large enough to contain another habitable planet aside from ours, but the constellations put a maximum bound on the area in which both Earths can exist and it should be relatively small compared to the size of the galaxy.

I see what you are saying, but I am still arguing that the descendants of the colonies could have looked up into the sky and named different constellations with similar or near exact configurations the old names. In their situation, I would say that this was only way they had left to pass down their civilization to their children, through their stories.

While it is true they were only one cylon tech FTL jump from the colony to Earth 2, they could have been a few or dozens of jumps away from Earth 1. Plus, we don't even know how long it took for the Raptor to jump back to the rendezvous point with the Basestar and the rest of the fleet while the Galatica was orbiting Earth.

So yeah, all I am saying is that you can't assume that they were looking up into the night sky on Earth 2 and seeing the same stars.

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TomDavidson
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For that matter, the constellations put a maximum bound on the timeframe, too. The stars move over the years. But the authors don't appear aware of this.
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Marlozhan
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I think the finale when they found earth the first time was better than this one (until, of course, they discovered it was nuked). I think one of the things that bugged me most about their arrival at our earth, was how anti-climatic the response of all the characters were. I wanted to see these people rejoice at their arrival. Yet, the next scene we see is a bunch of people laying in the grass, studying the natives.

Where's the rejoicing? The relief? Everyone seemed to be more apathetic than they were prior to finding earth (except for a few moments, like Lee getting excited about exploring). It seemed to me that the people's spirits were broken beyond repair, so that when they arrived, they were unable to feel joy at their arrival.

Instead, it just felt like people wanted to go their own separate ways and just die. I know not everyone felt this way, but that's the emotional effect it had on me.

I suppose that this whole emotional effect was Ron Moore's desire all along, but I have been waiting throughout this whole series to finally take a big breath of relief along with these characters, and feel the reward for battling through such tremendous circumstances. Yet, in the end, this episode felt more like a funeral (not just for Roslin) than a celebration.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed most of it and there are parts of the ending that have stuck with me, but I also feel oddly melancholy even 2 days later. Maybe that means it had its desired effect on me, but I am not yet convinced it is the effect I wanted to feel.


On a more lighthearted note, since Hera is half cylon, and I am therefore a descendant of her, does that mean I can interface with my computer through my arm and make it do whatever I want? [Razz]

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Telperion the Silver
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Marlozhan, I feel the same way.

I think part of the reason for the lack of rejoicing on the part of the people was that they are basically being forced to surrender (what remains) of their culture to oblivion. Lords know I would feel pretty sh*@#y too.

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Lisa
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I'm glad the prophecy was wrong about Roslin not seeing Earth.
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BryanP
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Moore said the finale would be 15-20 minutes longer on the DVD, maybe there'll be some rejoicing in that version.
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Damien.m
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
I'm glad the prophecy was wrong about Roslin not seeing Earth.

Thats because Kara was the dying leader. [Smile]
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neo-dragon
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Perhaps people were a bit hesitant to openly rejoice because the last two times they'd thought they found a planet to settle on it ended up being a horrible disappointment.
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twinky
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Actually, I think Galactica may have been the dying leader. But I'm not particularly concerned about which prophecies did and did not come true, or how. [Smile]
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by ReddwarfVII:
...
So yeah, all I am saying is that you can't assume that they were looking up into the night sky on Earth 2 and seeing the same stars.

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're proposing. It seems to me that you're saying that the humans on Earth1 picked certain stars to create their constellations and that the humans on Earth2 may have picked completely different stars to form the constellations and that while the constellations are fixed the stars may not be?

I don't know, it seems like that may be possible but it seems rather improbable.

TomDavidson:
Yes, there should be a time bound too.

quote:
Originally posted by Marlozhan:
...
Instead, it just felt like people wanted to go their own separate ways and just die. I know not everyone felt this way, but that's the emotional effect it had on me.

It seemed fairly sad to me too. So everyone just breaks up to live probably short and brutal lives with no real development that would ever show up in the archaeological record. Heck, they even ash the bar piano. Despite the talk of family, Lee will probably never see his father again, Kara disappears, Galen won't see anyone, and so forth. Additionally, its even implied that Hera dies young and becomes mitochondrial eve?
*shrug*

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Mucus
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On the bright side, maybe we'll get a spin-off set in the past where Adama beats down a woolly mammoth with a flashlight.
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Nighthawk
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I just have a hard time accepting that they find the remains of Hera, but not the remains of a forty ton Raptor here and there...
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Destineer
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quote:
I think the finale when they found earth the first time was better than this one (until, of course, they discovered it was nuked).
Yeah! If they were just going to find Earth by fiat through some random impulse of Starbuck's, why do it twice in a row?

Maybe I should adopt the attitude that the show really ended after season 4.0. The problem with that, of course, is that the early 4.5 episodes were pretty good.

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caseyjp1
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Hi all.Long time lurker.
Really curious as to why uncle Orson never comments on BSG. A show this good sorta' deserves his take on it imho. Anyway...
I posted this over at Maureen Ryan's site in response to some of the Kara questions as well as a bit of other stuff. Thought you might be interested in this take:
-snip-
Hi there Maureen, I don't know if you're still reading this section, but I felt compelled to post this in a bit of a rebuttal to the "fans" whinging about 'religion' or 'spirituality' and also ragging about deux ex machina regarding Kara's role in the end-game.

First off a quote from one of the brightest minds of our time in science fiction and science:

"Any technology sufficiently advanced will be indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke

In the canon of BSG, far back in their history, up until Kobol, the gods and men lived together, and were even referred to in Pythia as "The LORDS of Kobol". The humans named this pantheon Zeus, Athena, Apollo, etc.

While there is no name for the 'head 6/baltar' "angels", there is absolutely no reason NOT to assume that these were those Lords still with the human race.

It can also be inferred based on the backstory given in the series that these were POST-PHYSICAL beings of great power that to a more primitive race would seem just like...gods.

They are shown in the show to have been manipulating and guiding humanity, but not FORCING them. Thus the stuck-in-a-rut mentality of human kind to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

This leads to Kara. In her death in the great dark spot, she is given the oppotunity to change things with her Mother, and to come to grips with a 'destiny' by what appears to be a Leoben, but when she asks towards the end agrees with her that he really isn't Leoben. He would be, by the show's definition, one of the gods sent to assist her to the next phase of her existence, to, if you will, prepare her for the role they have seen her play in the end.

That she returns as PHYSICAL is not deux ex machina OR all that vague if one recalls the episode where Baltar is forced into a corner by the PHYSICAL SIX that lays out the fake evidence of his complicity in the destruction of the colonies. That was one of the "angels" and she WAS physical until Baltar comes to accept a higher power and bows to that authority in his jail cell. THEN that six vanished...utterly, leaving only the reading glasses on the CIC dradis table.

So we have precedent for their physical capability, and it now takes no great leap of intuition to realize that Kara has been sent back to help. She doesn't wave a magic wand, she doesn't save the day on her own. She doesn't even act to jump the ship until someone else TELLS her to get them the hell out of there, and THEN, she puts together the pieces to the extent of hoping that the music/numbers are the right thing to do.

Even then she still doesn't completely understand until she is on Earth with Apollo and the look in her eyes changes. You see she now realizes that this "journey" is done and that she has done what she was supposed to do...and vanishes the same way the physical six did in the fake pictures of baltar episode.

There does NOT have to be any religion involved, but spirituality yes. Even then this spirituality can be given a non-bearded god-guy slant by understanding that the Lords of Kobol are the progenitors, the parents, if you will of the younger human race, and want what is best for them, but are unwilling to force the issue other than by providing a guiding hand.

Humans still have the choice to ignore or do the wrong thing. And that at the end, for me, is what makes this show great.
-------

anyway, my 2 cents on Kara and how the pieces fit together for her 'vanishing'.

Also, regarding the Earth question, its a sly trick by the producers, but if you take a close look at the episode where they find the nuked version...you will NEVER see any familiar landmarks. The audience just assumed (as did I) that it was OUR Earth. It was never meant to be that. Remember, the name "Earth" is actually pretty generic. It was purposeful misdirection by the show runner (RDM), and isn't playing games at all, other than to get the audience into the same "oh crud, now what?" mind set that the folks involved have once they find it and realize the place is devastated.

What an amazing wonderful, thought provoking program this was!

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caseyjp1
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Also, there is a good article on the discovery.com site with the science advisor to BSG. He indicates that the constellation issues in season 2 in the tomb were a screw-up. He forgot to get the right information to the production team until they were too far 'done' with post production to change anything.

So, all the arguments about that bit...welp, its just an "oops" by their science guy.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
They are shown in the show to have been manipulating and guiding humanity, but not FORCING them. Thus the stuck-in-a-rut mentality of human kind to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.
You know, it's exactly this sort of thing that most annoys me about gods. I swear, if I ever discover that I made some perfectly avoidable mistake because the leggy blonde in my head didn't tell me she was speaking for God when she gave me advice, I will be very annoyed.
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caseyjp1
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quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
I just have a hard time accepting that they find the remains of Hera, but not the remains of a forty ton Raptor here and there...

If they arrived here 10-15k years ago, I'd agree. But 150,000 years? The remains of Hera weren't remains, they were FOSSILIZED remains.

A raptor would have long and LONG since been rusted to dust and vanished.

The amount of time involved here is something a lot of people just can't perceive with any degree of comfort.

We have real difficulty in anthropological digs even as recent as 20-30,000 years back. Finds such as Lucy, and the "eve" that was discovered recently are RARE as hens teeth and extraordinary amounts of luck are involved in finding these remains, and even then we don't find much more than bits and pieces of these.

I bought the story based on the span of time between then and now.

Another thought. Hera was our "eve". This means that those who landed may have provided some dna to the modern version of 'us', but if you follow the logical path, they didn't survive as a race. Hera's blood led to us. So in that way, lol, Kara DID lead them to their "end" in more ways than one.

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Shigosei
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Technically, that's not true. Every single one of the colonists could have left descendants. It's just that there are no direct lines of maternal descent but Hera's left in existence.
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Blayne Bradley
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i wish they wouldve left a few raptors on the moon for us to discover and glean FTW drives from. Surely a race able to reach the moon must've learned to get past its differences?
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Lisa
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Which means that we're all descendents of Carl Agathon, human, and Athena, cylon.
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Blayne Bradley
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so we are all descended from Koreans.
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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Additionally, its even implied that Hera dies young and becomes mitochondrial eve?
*shrug*

If she really did become mitochondrial eve, she couldn't have died that young.
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Shigosei
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quote:
Surely a race able to reach the moon must've learned to get past its differences?
Not only is that not true in the colonials' experience, it isn't true in our experience either.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by ricree101:
quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Additionally, its even implied that Hera dies young and becomes mitochondrial eve?
*shrug*

If she really did become mitochondrial eve, she couldn't have died that young.
Maybe
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/angel-1984/angel-1984-1a.shtml
That seems to indicate that the average lifespan was at most 30 years. (Which probably implies that most people had children a lot younger than we currently do)

So in order for that NatGeo article to say that she died as a young woman, a young woman in that era would probably be late teens or early twenties? I dunno.

Of course the whole thing can be disregarded as poetic license, the head-beings are rarely straight-forward and do lie anyways. *shrug*

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Shigosei:
quote:
Surely a race able to reach the moon must've learned to get past its differences?
Not only is that not true in the colonials' experience, it isn't true in our experience either.
I see your sarcasm detector broke down and is away for repairs.

But in any case, It would have been awesome irregardless if they had left their entire history and technology on hard disk on a raptor on the moon, surely it wouldve been protected for quite some time? They must be hardened against solar flairs and gamma bursts.

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Mucus
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A lighter-side to the BSG finale
http://io9.com/5178837/spike-and-angel-debate-the-bsg-finale

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Damien.m
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Interesting chat with Jane Espenson here.
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ReddwarfVII
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Well, since no one else has said it, I think that I will. Thanks to everyone on this forum for the debate over the years. It was a great run for a show worth discussing. An occurance which I think will become more rare for a few years. As I said earlier, all good things.....

Don't worry, I'll get the lights on the way out.

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Katarain
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I don't think that Kara randomly jumped to Earth2. She finally realized that the notes in the song could be translated to jump coordinates. I thought that was fairly obvious from the way it was filmed.

Also, I can understand how the mythology, including the names of constellations, could have been handed down generation to generation, and it makes sense that the people would look up in the sky and name new constellations with the old names. Just as the 12 gods of Kobel became the Greek gods.

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ricree101
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No new bsg tonight. It's a strange feeling.
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Carrie
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Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what to do with myself tonight.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Carrie:
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what to do with myself tonight.

Usually I'd just watch Psych instead, but even that isn't on.

And now it's months until new Psych, new Stargate, new Caprica or BSG movie...

This is going to be one depressing movie TV wise.

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Lanfear
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I'm debating whether to just start the series over on friday nights...
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Nighthawk
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You'll just have to deal with it with Dollhouse and Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles.
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Nighthawk
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National Geographic cover [Big Grin]
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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
National Geographic cover [Big Grin]

Wouldn't we laugh if that actually happened... [Wink]

Great cover, though. Perhaps I'll post that on my LJ tomorrow and see if I can't actually pull an April Fool's. [Smile]

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Nighthawk
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Obama Depressed, Distant Since 'Battlestar Galactica' Series Finale
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Marlozhan
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From the article, Obama says:
quote:
"Our nation finds itself in uncharted territory in the deep emptiness of space," Obama announced. "The Old Girl has limited supplies, no allies, and now, no hope. I never said this would be an easy journey. Yet I promise you this: There is a place where there is no war and no economic turmoil. It is where, according to the Sacred Scrolls handed down to us by the Lords of Kobol, the thirteenth tribe traveled over three thousand years ago. That place is called Earth. Not the other Earth. This Earth. It's complicated. Anyway, I plan to take us there."
[ROFL]
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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by Lanfear:
I'm debating whether to just start the series over on friday nights...

No Burn Notice either. I usually watch it on Hulu on fridays.

Atleast Rescue Me is coming back and Rob Thomas(Veronica Mars) has a new show.

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Lisa
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But Burn Notice will be back in June. So at least it isn't a long wait.
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Imamess
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I don't know if anyone keeps up with Bear's blog, but I found his thoughts on the last episode to be pretty interesting (even if I don't understand much of the music lingo...)

http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=1760#more-1760

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Mucus
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For those also in BSG withdrawal, the last science fiction-themed CSI had Ron Moore in an awesome cameo scene (plus two other cast members in non-speaking cameos) plus the actress that plays Ellen Tigh. (Also, Corwin for those B5 fans)
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