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Author Topic: Battlestar Galactica Season 4.5 Thread
ReddwarfVII
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jon Boy:
What I was hoping would happen was that Galactica would jump away, and the spatial distortion from the jump would rip through the Colony, knocking it out of its orbit, and it would fall into the black hole. I think visually it would have been a lot cooler, too. Oh well. [/QUOTE}]

No I would have to disagree with you on this point. I think that considering that the show basically showed there really was some higher power influencing all of this, the firing of the nukes was going to happen all along. They would have hit before the download was complete and the colony would have been doomed anyway. The powers that be, I think, were determined to break the cycle too. Had the colony lived, the cycle would have continued. Considering that at the end, humanity had continued to live on for 150,000 years after they landed on our Earth, I would say they had been pretty successful in this regard. Many times the years that humanity had survived after they left Kobol until the destruction of the colonies.

For me of all the questions left unanswered, the only one is left that leads to interesting discussion is what became of the centurions? Maybe Captain Kirk and company get to answer that one? [ROFL] [Taunt]

For everything else, I can only say fade to black. All good things.....

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Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged
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I think the show Caprica should instead take place on a slightly future Earth. Imagine a world on the cusp of creating their own robot slaves, On the verge of continuing the cycle of destruction. Meanwhile just out of sight the Original centurions lurk. I'd imagine they wouldn't be to happy if we (the decedents of humanity and cylon) created our own robot slaves.
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Telperion the Silver
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Congrats to those who called that the Earth they found was not "our" Earth! Good call!

But I'm very pleased that I TOTALLY called that Kara was a Head-Being in the end. [Big Grin]

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Corwin
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And her Viper was a head-Viper? [Razz] Moore said there was no definite answer about Kara, and she didn't really seem in the same league with head-Baltar and head-Caprica, did she?
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BandoCommando
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I'm glad that I agreed with neodragon way back when he theorized that the survivors were going to end up being humanities distant ancestors.

I'm still unclear on Kara. Apparently she really did die on the radioactive earth? And from her reappearance was as an "angel"? Why, then, was she a harbinger of death?

I'm typing from my phone and can't go further into my question here, bit maybe someone can explain it for me.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
I'm still unclear on Kara. Apparently she really did die on the radioactive earth? And from her reappearance was as an "angel"? Why, then, was she a harbinger of death?
Well, she took humanity (and some cylons) to our Earth, where over many thousands of years eventually (if the reporter guy on the TV is to be believed) eventually both died out, but not Hera being the earliest known creature that matched modern people.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Michiel:
Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...

I'm not annoyed. I figured pretty early on that the writers for BSG were making it up as they went along, as in Stargate or The X-Files as opposed to a Babylon 5. But the difference (especially when compared to the X-Files) is that they did a pretty good and enjoyable job.

quote:
Originally posted by twinky:
quote:
Originally posted by sylvrdragon:
As an Atheist, I must say that I'm upset that the whole series was really and truly given up to a religious/supernatural motive and cause.

I'm an atheist too. But really, they were going there from the start. What other explanation could they have given for "all of this has happened before and will happen again," and everything that came along with that, that wouldn't have been totally lame?

I don't know if the supernatural/religious angle really is all that necessary. All we do know is that there is some seemingly magical higher power controlling events via small interventions via these head-agents and possibly Kara. Also, that they herd life through cycles of life and death when they feel that society has grown too corrupt and decadent.

But does the power to influence events in that way really require something that is supernatural or religious?

The idea at its base doesn't seem all that dissimilar from the Vorlon/Shadow conflict in Babylon 5, albeit these head agents are much more invasive and competent at their tasks.

But fundamentally, where B5 portrayed an outcome where our manipulative self-appointed guardians left, BSG just shows an outcome where they *didn't* leave (yet). I think thats an interesting and worthy enough idea to portray (and enjoy).

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Destineer
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quote:
over many thousands of years eventually (if the reporter guy on the TV is to be believed) eventually both died out, but not Hera being the earliest known creature that matched modern people.
Does anyone else think this is a really lame fate for Hera?
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by BryanP:
Nice work, I guess I was late to that bandwagon. Definitely cool that Hera was the mitochondrial eve, presumably at least Baltar and Six had a kid too.

Thats one aspect I didn't like. It seemed like the decision to spread out on Earth and destroy most of the large elements of technology to be fairly arbitrary and just something required by the plot.

How many people raised in a modern society are going to want to suffer through largely manual farming, any hope of medical care, and little or no contact with others/culture? This is even worse than New Caprica.

I guess I can just imagine that a splinter group didn't abandon technology and is responsible for all that Chariots of the Gods nonsense [Wink]

Destineer: Yeah, it seems like that the whole Hera storyline could have been omitted without changing the ending much. Whether Hera breeds with the primitive humans or whether all of the remaining Cylons and humans do seems to be largely irrelevant.

[ March 21, 2009, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Mucus ]

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Destineer
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quote:
Thats one aspect I didn't like. It seemed like the decision to spread out on Earth and destroy most of the large elements of technology to be fairly arbitrary and just something required by the plot.
Yeah, totally.
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Rakeesh
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Frankly a viewer would have to be firmly committed to skepticism to actually be surprised at the supernatural tone the ending took. It's been a given for quite awhile in BSG that the supernatural was a reality in that world. Too many things predicted by the supernatural kept coming true, repeatedly.

quote:
But does the power to influence events in that way really require something that is supernatural or religious?
It doesn't? Head-Caprica-Six in particular made many different predictions that came true, things she (or Baltar) could not have known. Leoben, too. And Laura's dreams of Leoben for that matter.

quote:
Does anyone else think this is a really lame fate for Hera?
*shrug* Being the mother of an entire race doesn't seem very lame to me.

quote:
How many people raised in a modern society are going to want to suffer through largely manual farming, any hope of medical care, and little or no contact with others/culture? This is even worse than New Caprica.
Very few, but you have to ask also, "What has technology brought them?" Cylons for one thing.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
It doesn't? Head-Caprica-Six in particular made many different predictions that came true, things she (or Baltar) could not have known. Leoben, too. And Laura's dreams of Leoben for that matter.

Why couldn't they have known?
Babylon 5 already shows one mechanism that only a moderately more advanced race needs to implement fairly seemingly inexplicable predictions and prophecy, time travel.

Alternatively, being able to affect events directly to make certain things happen, that would be more the Second Foundation's forte perhaps.

quote:
Very few, but you have to ask also, "What has technology brought them?" Cylons for one thing.
Aqueducts [Wink]

But seriously, freedom from having to worry about many trivial diseases, advance warning of natural disasters, mobility to see friends, the ability to specialize and have people like doctors and artists, and even proper sanitation.

I can understand how a certain limited and isolated population might find appeal in such a fate. However, given that the Twelve Colonies still have many people from areas that are farming and relatively poor, I can't imagine that many of those people would find merit in the idea. For example, in my specific case, if my ancestors wanted to stay in low-tech farming in China, they would have done so rather than choosing to immigrate and do otherwise.

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MightyCow
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Do we have any indication that the centurions have the ability to make new centurions? Since they don't have the ability to resurrect any more, it seems to me that the last base star full of centurions was no threat to come back in the future.
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Telperion the Silver
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Dude, I would totally fight tooth and nail to keep the ships! You would sacrifice not only all the knowledge on HOW to farm and build, but you would committ to ash all art and culture and music?
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sylvrdragon
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By complete and utter coincidence, whilst watching Anime (Ergo Proxy; good show), I happened upon the term that I basically defined in my earlier post (and never knew existed). Deus ex machina.

The Wiki article says it all. This is what I feel RDM did to us.

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Rakeesh
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Mucus,

quote:
Babylon 5 already shows one mechanism that only a moderately more advanced race needs to implement fairly seemingly inexplicable predictions and prophecy, time travel.
Yes, well, where and when was time travel ever even a myth in the BSG setting?

quote:
Alternatively, being able to affect events directly to make certain things happen, that would be more the Second Foundation's forte perhaps.
In what way could Head-Six directly affect events, except through influencing Baltar? Or Head-Baltar through Caprica Six, for that matter? How was it Laura Roslin dreamed of the exact circumstances of the Leoben's death out of an airlock? An airlock death I could see, but everything was identical except for the setting which was the actual airlock in one and the forest in the dream. How was it the Opera House visions were so relevant?

quote:
I can understand how a certain limited and isolated population might find appeal in such a fate. However, given that the Twelve Colonies still have many people from areas that are farming and relatively poor, I can't imagine that many of those people would find merit in the idea. For example, in my specific case, if my ancestors wanted to stay in low-tech farming in China, they would have done so rather than choosing to immigrate and do otherwise.
That's not a very valid comparison, because of course your ancestors weren't presented with the choice, "Remain low-tech farmers or not, and nothing will happen," were they? For one thing, the humans and few Cylons were in a unique position: there wasn't going to be anyone come knocking on the door of their stick huts with an iron sword, for example, if they took the low-tech route and things went wrong.

For another thing, again bear in mind that they'd all been, every single one, crammed into tiny high-tech boxes for years. I cannot help but think that the lure of eschewing that in favor of a life under the sun and stars would be very strong.

As for losing things like medicine and specialization, well, there were already detailed surveys of Earth conducted before they committed to this plan. You saw the places on the map they were choosing to settle: they were the birthplaces of civilizations throughout the world. The places where the most benefit with the least possible work could be done. Not that it wouldn't be hard, but I have no doubt they picked the most fertile lands, the most kind and favorable climates. I'd be shocked if they didn't know, for example, where to go for plants for medicines. Not up to their past standards, sure, but they wouldn't be reduced to just watching their loved ones die either.

As for proper sanitation...you must not have much experience living outdoors. If you know what you're doing, proper sanitation isn't an insurmountable problem.

Above all, the thing most important to all the drawbacks you're mentioning, the Colonials already had: knowledge.

-----

quote:
The Wiki article says it all. This is what I feel RDM did to us.
You'd never heard that term before? I always thought it was pretty well-known, but I'm hardly an expert on what terms are well known and what aren't.

Anyway, this wasn't deus ex machina, simply because the supernatural intervention didn't come out of nowhere. It's been part and parcel of the story almost from the first part of the miniseries.

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Tammy
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I wish they would have ended it with Hera roaming the fields. I hated the ending, 150,000 years later...earth screwed as usual.

I wish Adama would have went to join Lee in exploring after Laura died.

I hated Starbuck just disappearing. I actually wanted her to settle and be happy with Lee.

*sigh*

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Yes, well, where and when was time travel ever even a myth in the BSG setting?

I don't understand. You asked me how an advanced race could possibly simulate the appearance of predicting the future. I answered.

I'm not saying that there are colonial myths about it or even that I wanted them to broach the subject on the show. Just that there exists the possibility and that a religious explanation is not the only possibility.

quote:
In what way could Head-Six directly affect events, except through influencing Baltar? Or Head-Baltar through Caprica Six, for that matter?
We already know they do on the show. Kara resurrecting and influencing events directly for one. With that in the equation, implanting dreams and nudging Roslin to airlock Leoben doesn't seem all that difficult. She airlocks enough people on her own anyways.

quote:
For one thing, the humans and few Cylons were in a unique position: there wasn't going to be anyone come knocking on the door of their stick huts with an iron sword, for example, if they took the low-tech route and things went wrong.
They don't actually know that. They don't know if any remaining hostile Cylons survived or whether the ones that they set free would come back. They don't know if a local tribe might decide to pick off a survivor out of fear. They don't even know if old grudges might pop up and they might seek out and kill each other.
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orlox
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BSG at the UN
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The Black Pearl
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I think they kept some technology, didnt they? They kept medical care, and they still stayed in some touch. Why else would they map where everyone is, besides social calls or incase anyone was sick/injured/pregnant?
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Rakeesh
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Mucus,

quote:
I don't understand. You asked me how an advanced race could possibly simulate the appearance of predicting the future. I answered.
Specifically I asked how someone in that setting could know the things they know. Time travel not being a possibility ever explored or even mentioned, I rather think that takes it off the table.

quote:
I'm not saying that there are colonial myths about it or even that I wanted them to broach the subject on the show. Just that there exists the possibility and that a religious explanation is not the only possibility.
Yes, well, like I said, some people are committed to skepticism, even in fiction;)

quote:
quote:In what way could Head-Six directly affect events, except through influencing Baltar? Or Head-Baltar through Caprica Six, for that matter?

We already know they do on the show. Kara resurrecting and influencing events directly for one. With that in the equation, implanting dreams and nudging Roslin to airlock Leoben doesn't seem all that difficult. She airlocks enough people on her own anyways.

*shrug* Kara Thrace always seemed - and everyone said, repeatedly - that she was something special. My personal opinion is that she was simply a human agent of the supernatural. Aside from finding her own body, exactly what did she do that was supernatural?

quote:
They don't actually know that. They don't know if any remaining hostile Cylons survived or whether the ones that they set free would come back. They don't know if a local tribe might decide to pick off a survivor out of fear. They don't even know if old grudges might pop up and they might seek out and kill each other.
You're really cherry-picking things to respond to, aren't you?

Anyway, I think they knew there were no other Cylons coming to find them millions of lightyears beyond the region they were inhabiting. No Resurrection, no means of reproduction, no colony, any cylons would have been in an even worse position than the colonials after the genocide. So Cylons can safely be scratched off the table.

They could easily defend against the incredibly unlikely event that any of those tribes would actually attack one of them (attack, out of fear? Why would the colonials ever corner one of them?)

And as for grudges, I think one of the points was simply that they had had enough of war. All of them. You're reaching.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
*shrug* Kara Thrace always seemed - and everyone said, repeatedly - that she was something special. My personal opinion is that she was simply a human agent of the supernatural. Aside from finding her own body, exactly what did she do that was supernatural?
Well...

Apart from reappearing after being dead at a great distance from where she was killed, and apart from finding her own body, and apart from having visions of her father reteaching her some quasi-mystical song, and apart from having some sort of divine spidey sense that told her where to jump to get closer to earth that subsequently led the Icarus to finding the Cylon baseship...

Nothing I guess.

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Lisa
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I liked how they played the theme from the old BSG as the fleet went into the sun.

I don't exactly understand why Cavil said, "Frak!" and ate his gun when the truce broke down.

I know Athena had to kill Boomer, but I'm a little sad about it.

I think that if Tory had told Galen what she did before letting him find out that way, he might possibly not have killed her.

Who thinks that Saul became One-Eyed Odin? And Athena as Hera's mother? I guess that got garbled a bit.

I don't think I would have gone off to a brutal and probably short as a hunter/gatherer. I like my creature comforts.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
I don't exactly understand why Cavil said, "Frak!" and ate his gun when the truce broke down.
It wasn't scripted that way. Cavil was supposed to be thrown off a top level deck in the CIC by Tigh. But the actor felt that if things deteriorated that way, Cavil would rather just end it himself.

quote:
I think that if Tory had told Galen what she did before letting him find out that way, he might possibly not have killed her.
If she had told him months ago, maybe. But if she had told him right beforehand, I still think that the shock of seeing it fresh and from Tory's perspective wouldn't have been enough time to absorb it.

Tory got what was coming to her. Since finding out she was a Cylon, she has acted more selfishly and cruelly towards humans than any of the Cylons in the rebel baseship. She had some serious issues, in a lot of different ways, and I think she felt wronged by humanity and being a Cylon was an escape for her, and excuse to act immorally without guilt. Tigh and Anders never let go of their humanity when they found out, they clung to it even more. Galen struck into a gray area, and Tory shunned her humanity. Being killed by Galen was just reaping what she'd sown.

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Rakeesh
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quote:


Apart from reappearing after being dead at a great distance from where she was killed, and apart from finding her own body, and apart from having visions of her father reteaching her some quasi-mystical song, and apart from having some sort of divine spidey sense that told her where to jump to get closer to earth that subsequently led the Icarus to finding the Cylon baseship...

The corpse of Thrace on the Cylon Earth is the biggest mystery. The rest of it isn't any more noteworthy than many of the predictions Baltar, Caprica, and Roslin got.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Specifically I asked how someone in that setting could know the things they know. Time travel not being a possibility ever explored or even mentioned, I rather think that takes it off the table.

I don't see why.
They never explained how the head-agents do their work, what mechanism was involved in Starbuck resurrecting, or even who the head-agents answer to. There are all sorts of things that weren't explicitly explained.
On one hand, I'm not particularly upset that they didn't, BSG has a good history of touching on interesting subjects and topics (human rights, abortion, etc) without necessarily giving a "right" answer but on the other hand, I don't see why we can't speculate on the answers.

quote:
My personal opinion is that she was simply a human agent of the supernatural. Aside from finding her own body, exactly what did she do that was supernatural?
Well, the vanishing act for one could be perceived as supernatural. But I'm not sure why you're asking that. If I don't think that a supernatural explanation necessary, why ask what I think is supernatural?

quote:
You're really cherry-picking things to respond to, aren't you?
I don't see how. I'm answering everything that seems relevant to me. If you have a specific question that you feel I missed, then feel free to point it out. Your snark seems to be unnecessary.

Anyways, I don't think the Cylons are as screwed as that. After all, the hostile Cylons must have other ships left aside from the colony, I don't think they managed to wipe out every last ship by destroying the hub and the colony. Additionally, the purely mechanical Cylons don't need humanoid Cylons to construct them, we already knew that they were able to create each other during the first Cylon War. As for the friendly centurion Cylons, they really don't know if they might change their mind and become unfriendly.

quote:
(attack, out of fear? Why would the colonials ever corner one of them?)
Why do we have bear attacks and shark attacks even now? It happens. Its been documented that even chimpanzees in the wild now have the equivalent of war, these primitive humans are probably no different.

quote:
I think one of the points was simply that they had had enough of war. All of them. You're reaching.
Dubious. They're humans and humans rarely have enough of conflict. Remember, its only a couple of episodes since Adama said to Helo that he needed a marine escort in case someone left over from the mutiny or angry about siding with the Cylons might try to take him down.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
It wasn't scripted that way. Cavil was supposed to be thrown off a top level deck in the CIC by Tigh. But the actor felt that if things deteriorated that way, Cavil would rather just end it himself.
My reasoning is that Cavil simply realized that, no, he was never going to get out of that room with Hera. Many would have protested, but someone (especially to Cavil's mind) would've killed her and gone for mutual destruction rather than let her leave and then have the Galactica and all aboard her destroyed anyway.

quote:
I know Athena had to kill Boomer, but I'm a little sad about it.
Me too. What's funny to me is that the Cylons really did Boomer's final betrayal to themselves. They created a being with intense survivor's guilt, and presumably thought that prolem would be controlled.

quote:
I think that if Tory had told Galen what she did before letting him find out that way, he might possibly not have killed her.
I think that maybe if Tory had prostrated herself - literally - and wept begging for forgiveness Galen might have spared her. Tyrol's certainly got a temper, after all, and it would take a great deal to overcome his feelings on the matter. Consider what must've gone through his mind. All the hatred and cynicism and disgust with Cally he expressed - in public, no less - was based on a lie.

Yeah, Tory was a total scumbag once she discovered she was a Cylon, and decided that meant no rules applied to her.

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Lyrhawn
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I'd count all the visions they had as supernatural too.

Of all the visions they all had, I can only think of one that wasn't specifically related to some sort of plot advancement. Most of them had to do with moving the plot along in some way, or setting up elements that would later be important to moving the plot along.

But I wonder about the visions that Roslin was having when the Baseship was jumping towards The Hub. It was much more about personal development, and only tangentially related to the plot, unless her and Adama professing their love for each other was in any way important to the plot, and I don't really think it was. Those visions are what forced her to do some introspective self analysis, and she came out the other side a different, somewhat softer person than she'd grown to become.

Are there any other examples of visions coming about for personal growth rather than for plot purposes? I guess hers and Adama's romance was as much a part of the plot as Helo/Athena or Lee/Kara, but other than Helo and Athena, none of those plots were absolutely necessary to the overarching Cylons vs. Humans plot.

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Rakeesh
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Mucus,

quote:
...I don't see why we can't speculate on the answers.
Well, because speculation should IMO have some basis in reality (or in this case, the setting) or else it's just total wild-ass-guessery, that's all.

quote:
Well, the vanishing act for one could be perceived as supernatural. But I'm not sure why you're asking that. If I don't think that a supernatural explanation necessary, why ask what I think is supernatural?
I'm asking because you cited Thrace, and I was asking in response what exactly she's done that's more supernatural than the Head-people.

quote:
Why do we have bear attacks and shark attacks even now? It happens. Its been documented that even chimpanzees in the wild now have the equivalent of war, these primitive humans are probably no different.
Why do we have bear and shark attacks even now? In the majority of cases, it's rooted in human ignorance. Most of them could be avoided. Not that shark attacks are commonplace anyway.

quote:
Dubious. They're humans and humans rarely have enough of conflict. Remember, its only a couple of episodes since Adama said to Helo that he needed a marine escort in case someone left over from the mutiny or angry about siding with the Cylons might try to take him down.
It's dubious that people have enough of conflict? No, it's not. Bear in mind I'm not saying they had enough of conflict forever, just that those human beings remaining would have felt that way.
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Nighthawk
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quote:
Originally posted by Tammy:
I wish they would have ended it with Hera roaming the fields. I hated the ending, 150,000 years later...earth screwed as usual.

I think the sole purpose of the ending was to give Ron Moore a cameo (he's the one reading the National Geographic magazine, isn't he?)

I'm still confused about Kara... I don't think she's a "Head-Kara" as some say because she obviously had a physical presence. But her popping out of existence... uh, what the hell?

And after all his screw ups, Baltar *does* end up with a real, tangible hot blonde.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Well, because speculation should IMO have some basis in reality (or in this case, the setting) or else it's just total wild-ass-guessery, that's all.

Well, yes.
But thanks to the show we know little or nothing about the head-beings aside from that they seem to have magical-like powers, that one seems to claim to be an agent of god while the other doesn't like the idea, and that they probably sent back Kara along with head-piano guy.
I think "wild-ass-guessery" is pretty much the order of the day when it comes to speculation about them.

quote:
I'm asking because you cited Thrace, and I was asking in response what exactly she's done that's more supernatural than the Head-people.
Huh? You asked me for an example of a way that head-six could have influenced events aside from via Baltar. I gave the example of them presumably sending Kara Thrace back to influence events, something that has little connection with Baltar. I just don't see why you're asking about the supernatural.

quote:
In the majority of cases, it's rooted in human ignorance. Most of them could be avoided.
Maybe, but we have also have systems to deal with this. We make sure dangerous animals don't stroll into cities and we kill the ones with a history of attacking humans, animal control and the like. Also, safety in numbers. I don't see the appeal in giving that up especially when planning to have children.

quote:
Bear in mind I'm not saying they had enough of conflict forever, just that those human beings remaining would have felt that way.
Again, I don't buy it. Even if its only someone going after Baltar.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Tammy:
I wish they would have ended it with Hera roaming the fields. I hated the ending, 150,000 years later...earth screwed as usual.

I think the sole purpose of the ending was to give Ron Moore a cameo (he's the one reading the National Geographic magazine, isn't he?)

I'm still confused about Kara... I don't think she's a "Head-Kara" as some say because she obviously had a physical presence. But her popping out of existence... uh, what the hell?

And after all his screw ups, Baltar *does* end up with a real, tangible hot blonde.

Nah, Moore has said that the scene in Times Square has been on the books for quite awhile, and his decision to put himself in the scene was rather spur of the moment, but that he now regrets putting himself there because it is too much of a distraction.

And I don't think that Kara is a Head character at all. I think she was more or less an angel sent back to perform a couple specific tasks, and with her work done, she faded away.

I'm so glad that Baltar ended up doing the things he did. It turns out that his religious...confusion, over the last season and a half wasn't all just crap, it wasn't a ploy, he really did change, and I'm glad Caprica Six saw that. His being there was instrumental in the very short lived truce that was formed before Tyrol went nuts and killed Tory. Without him, Hera might have been killed in the CIC, or killed somewhere else on the ship. Did he redeem himself for everything bad that he did in his life? Maybe not, but I think when push came to shove, he did exactly what he was supposed to do, and his story is an incredibly interesting one just looking at the character growth over four seasons.

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Telperion the Silver
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I was thinking... the biggest irratation about the finale that gets to me is that fact that they would, notion about breaking the Cycle of Time and all that, give up all their remaining high tech and starships and reactors and jump drives, and music, and culture, and poetry, and books...

That Colonial society is now and forever extinct.

In reality NO ONE would go for that. Not without a fight. And not without the Lords of Kobol or God or Satan or whatever these powers are in our faces and telling us "give up your medicine and history and culture and tech or die forever".

I understand why the survivors are doing what they did...but they could have shown it to us in a better and more believable way. More lifelike...more real...

Eh.

For me civilizations, cultures, nations, worlds, are as important as any/all characters on the show. So to keep jumping in time to Caprica, capital of Mankind, was not just to show where the characters came from and how far they've come, but it is also showing what was lost.

That the nation that was the 12 Colonies of Man is now dead forever. All music and art and science they ever made was thrown on a starship and burned in a star.

Talk about suicide and dishonoring your anscestors.

And rewatching I just felt his growing sense of loss... knowing that Colonial society was about to give up the ghost... sure, for the long term survival of our DNA, but still... The survivors willingly destroyed everying their anscestors ever built or invented or made beautiful... a horrible death. The death of a culture.

Can you imagine someone giving up Mozart, Bach, Shakespear, Steven Hawkins, etc?

And in that way I'm happy...that the writers could make me feel an emotion. (again, wish we could have seen the people struggle with that idea as much as I have).

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Lyrhawn
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And yet maybe giving up those things was necessary, or maybe it was the final price they paid for the chance to really start over again. Maybe to break the cycle they really had to give all that up.

Under normal conditions I agree it would be impossible to give that stuff up, but after everything they'd been through, "normal" didn't really even exist anymore. They tried starting over on a new planet, and it didn't work. Granted it didn't work because they were conquered by Cylons, and one would think that maybe without Cylons to attack them, starting over in a city was actually a good idea, but they wanted to give it a fresh try, and in order to really break a cycle that old, I think it wasn't a bad choice, and I think that with everything that had just happened, it would have been enough to convince me to give up Mozart and Bach. I would never say I would NEVER give them up, I'd say that it'd take extreme circumstances.

How much more extreme could they get?

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Corwin
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quote:
Originally posted by orlox:
BSG at the UN

Cool. [Cool]
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Scott R
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Worst series finale ever.
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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
And yet maybe giving up those things was necessary, or maybe it was the final price they paid for the chance to really start over again. Maybe to break the cycle they really had to give all that up.

Under normal conditions I agree it would be impossible to give that stuff up, but after everything they'd been through, "normal" didn't really even exist anymore. They tried starting over on a new planet, and it didn't work. Granted it didn't work because they were conquered by Cylons, and one would think that maybe without Cylons to attack them, starting over in a city was actually a good idea, but they wanted to give it a fresh try, and in order to really break a cycle that old, I think it wasn't a bad choice, and I think that with everything that had just happened, it would have been enough to convince me to give up Mozart and Bach. I would never say I would NEVER give them up, I'd say that it'd take extreme circumstances.

How much more extreme could they get?

While I find the choice reasonably believable, I also think it's a stupid one. Not only did they destroy much of their cultural legacy, their decision also meant that when advanced civilization did reemerge they had forgotten all of the lessons of the past. The cycle may have been broken due to the fact that the new civilization had a clean slate to work with, but they're (or we're, whatever) playing around with the AI technology that started the whole cycle in the first place. If the colonials had rebuilt immediately, they would have passed on the lessons that have been learned the past couple years and used it to avoid restarting the cycle. As it stands, everything was forgotten over the course of thousands of years and it is only random chance that prevents history from repeating.
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Rakeesh
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quote:

In reality NO ONE would go for that. Not without a fight. And not without the Lords of Kobol or God or Satan or whatever these powers are in our faces and telling us "give up your medicine and history and culture and tech or die forever".

Telperion, they had a fight. In fact, they lost the fight they had, then they had a long, agonizing fighting retreat which they also lost.
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Strider
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quote:
Very disappointed finale. RDM really was making it all up as he went along - and so when he found himself in a corner, instead of trying to resolve matters, he just gave up. Everyone who actually cared about the mythology of this show is left a fool. Every minute talking about it turns out to have been a waste...
This is how I felt watching it as well. And not just because he used "supernatural" elements to explain the major plot points, but it was how he used those supernatural elements. I've been relatively disappointed throughout the return of this season though. I thought they backed themselves into a lot of corners and used many a cheap method to pull themselves out(Tyrol not being the father of their baby, having Caprica Six's baby die(because she didn't think Tigh loved her enough [Roll Eyes] )). To me it was just really unsatisfying how they closed up a lot of the loose ends. Particularly Starbuck's whole story line.
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Nighthawk
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I just can't help but imagine Adama thinking "you mean I could have found Earth four years ago simply by putting Kara at the helm and telling her 'Just jump us ANYWHERE!'? DAMN!"
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sylvrdragon
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[quote=Rakeesh]You'd never heard that term before? I always thought it was pretty well-known, but I'm hardly an expert on what terms are well known and what aren't.

Anyway, this wasn't deus ex machina, simply because the supernatural intervention didn't come out of nowhere. It's been part and parcel of the story almost from the first part of the miniseries. [/quote]

I had certainly heard of the term before, but I was never bothered to actually look it up.

When I use the term, I'm talking more about the Head-Agents than anything. There were so many other avenues this could have gone; So many unused possibilities; so many unanswered questions that when it came down to "Who are the Head Beings?" "Oh, those are Angels."... Seriously?

It would have been better to have had them just disappear and not try to explain who they were at all. Optimally, they should have been agents to some puppetmaster that we could possibly relate to. Something that may have been the end product of one of the many unanswered questions (Lords of Kobol, for instance). Something that was evolved/created from humanity.

As a writer, it is your job to explain why things are happening in your world. I am of the opinion that when you end it with some pre-packaged (One might argue Outdated and Cliche) unexplainable phenomenon, then you have stopped trying, and as such, have failed in your task.

My main gripe isn't that it had a bad ending. It's that I had so much time and attention vested in this story and my expectations were so high that to be shot down with "Because we said so; because we're Angels and we can do that." is so anti-climatic that it's depressing.

I can deal with a Sci-Fi story containing religion. I can even deal with them taking it seriously. What I can't deal with is when Religion is the Answer in a Sci-Fi story.

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Blayne Bradley
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I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT!
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
...
How much more extreme could they get?

I figure if they killed off enough people in the show to get below four digits and maybe one or two ships, then building a new city would be fairly hopeless anyways and they may as well do the hunter/gatherer thing [Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
I just can't help but imagine Adama thinking "you mean I could have found Earth four years ago simply by putting Kara at the helm and telling her 'Just jump us ANYWHERE!'? DAMN!"

Heh.

On the other hand, we do know the Galactica has a Cylon jump drive which has a much greater range than when they started out. Still, we know Earth2 is within one Cylon jump from the colony and also that it has the same constellation pattern as Earth1 which seems to indicate that the two cannot be too far apart.
So that gives us some bounds on how far Earth2 (our Earth) could be.

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Destineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Worst series finale ever.

No, that was X-Files.

But this one was bad too.

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Goody Scrivener
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:

On the other hand, we do know the Galactica has a Cylon jump drive which has a much greater range than when they started out. Still, we know Earth2 is within one Cylon jump from the colony and also that it has the same constellation pattern as Earth1 which seems to indicate that the two cannot be too far apart.
So that gives us some bounds on how far Earth2 (our Earth) could be.

Did they check for star patterns when they arrived at Earth Mark 2? I didn't even think about that.
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Nighthawk
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quote:
Did they check for star patterns when they arrived at Earth Mark 2? I didn't even think about that.
Nope, was never even considered. Kinda was like "Hey, this ain't such a bad place, I think. Let's call it 'Earth' just for kicks... Take that star chart and stuff it, Athena!"
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Mucus
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GS: Don't have to, unless they're pulling yet another switcheroo Earth2 is our Earth and we can verify that the star patterns are correct for ourselves [Wink]
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neo-dragon
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What would they have checked for? The planet was completely unknown to them, and they just decided to call it Earth.
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Mocke
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I just want to say that I was right... about the ship crashing into the colony.

I don't think Moore was making it all up as he went along. I know there are a lot of elements in it that weren't planned, like the final five, and Helo suriving past the first half of season 1. But, he only intended it to go for four seasons. He had a story to tell, he had a solid beginning, and he knew how he wanted it to end. Getting there was his adventure, and I am glad he shared with us.

I would've liked to know more about Kara. And who God was.

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Lisa
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Why did Head-Baltar-Angel say "It doesn't like to be called that" when Head-Six-Angel mentioned God?
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