quote:Originally posted by ricree101: What I don't get is what Tom Zarek's endgame is supposed to be here. If he succeeded, he would be left with a basestar full of angry alienated Cylons, and the only serious human military ship would be at a tiny fraction of its full combat readiness until the mutineers consolidated their hold and replaced those who died or refused to cooperate. The timing of the plan makes sense, but I'm just having trouble seeing what useful place it would lead to for Zarek.
Exactly. Zarek isn't thinking. He is a short-sighted narrow minded fool. Looks like next week we'll see that. Compared to the basestar, the Galatica is completely out gunned at the moment. All he wants is power and will go to any lengths to get it. He can't see beyond that goal.
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And that's my biggest problem with him as a character. He's sometimes referred to as a man of conscience, but as far as I can tell he doesn't believe in anything.
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: And that's my biggest problem with him as a character. He's sometimes referred to as a man of conscience, but as far as I can tell he doesn't believe in anything.
I think that's the point.
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quote:Originally posted by ReddwarfVII: As for the Jews accepting Nazi help, they did, alot. Not every Nazi wanted to kill the Jews.
Uh, no. Not every German was a Nazi, and not every German wanted to kill the Jews. But yes, every Nazi did.
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The Nazi party originally was one that embraced a fascist form of socialism, where the state and certain industries were in collusion. Not everyone who originally signed on to this political philosophy agreed with Hitler's penchant for blaming the Jews for everything bad that happened to the German economy. It did eventually develop in this direction, of course, where to be a Nazi meant to be a fanatical follower of Hitler and his denunciations of Jews.
I think, Lisa, that you are essentially correct, but there probably were (at least at one point) some Nazis who did not necessarily want to kill Jews.
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Please, let's not derail this awesome BSG thread with a fight about Nazis.
I'm really looking forward to the next episode - I hope that there's a space battle, we haven't seen one of those in a while. Need more marine action too.
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: And that's my biggest problem with him as a character. He's sometimes referred to as a man of conscience, but as far as I can tell he doesn't believe in anything.
I think that's the point.
The point was for him to be an ideologue without ideas? To be clear, I'm not saying that it's a flaw with him as a person, but with him as a character. He's more of a plot device than anything else.
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Blayne Bradley
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I have yet to find the newest episode via torrent, anyone know where I can find it?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Uh, no. Not every German was a Nazi, and not every German wanted to kill the Jews. But yes, every Nazi did.
Not a particularly useful distinction for certain generations of Germans since:
quote: On December 1, 1936, Hitler decreed "The Law concerning the Hitler Youth" which mandated that all young Germans (excluding Jews) would "be educated physically, intellectually and morally in the spirit of National Socialism" though the Hitler Youth from the age of ten onward.
...
Parents who prevented their children from joining the Hitler Youth were subject to heavy prison sentences. Membership thus grew to nearly six million.
This membership probably included the current pope and would lead to such outliers as John Rabe who was a Nazi who saved tens of thousands of Chinese during the Japanese occupation.
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Can we just call someone a Hitler already and move on? Or better yet, spin off a new thread...
Back to the point: I too hope for awesome space battles next episode, but I don't think we'll see any for a little while...
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Okay guys. Let's keep this back in the context of BSG. My point, while historically accurate Lisa (if you don't think so then spend some time on the history channel. Both Shindler's List and Valkyrie illustrate that not all Nazi's, not just the German people, were anti-semite.Not dissing you, just saying that I disagree with your statement.) was that WW2 is good illustration where conflicts of the past can be put aside to forge ahead to a better future.
It was the poor world leadership post WW1 that wanted to punish Germany that created the environment in Germany to bring Hitler to power. Gaeta and Zarek are showing that they themselves are just as short sighted as those world leaders post WW1. Zarek's misunderstanding of the benefits of maintaining an alliance with the cylon, even though he is a power hungry idiot, is understandable because for the most part he has been keep out of the loop. Gaeta for me however is the worst of the two betrayals because he has not been out of the loop. He is letting his feelings and his "woe is me" attitude blind him to the very real advantages to human survival that the cylons bring to the table.
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I liked the feel of this past episode. It's something that has been missing for quite some time now, but at the same time, I'm getting plot whiplash from all the back and forths recently (to say nothing of the multitude over the length of the whole show). I think if a BSG virgin watched the whole thing from start to finish, by now they'd just say "what the hell?" and might even stop watching.
I don't even care about Cally's son and Hot Dog. It couldn't possibly matter less to me. I almost didn't even care that the remnants of humanity just went to hell in a handbasket just to sate a couple peoples' short sighted hatreds and death wishes. It was just nice to see some good ole fashioned fast paced shoot 'em up fun.
And frankly, when Kara bust onto the scene and started mowing people down in the bay, I thought to myself "FINALLY, someone who acts realistically instead of trying to talk her way out of it." I'm sorry but in that given situation, with people settling old scores and everyone is trigger happy, you don't stand around for a therapy session, you shoot, see if they'll listen, then you shoot someone else. I don't imagine in a billion years I'd ever be in such a situation, and I'd probably be shaking so bad I'd hit the wall rather than my target, but logically it's what I'd do.
As much as what Gaeta and Zarek are doing is wrong, Adama and Roslin were wrong too. You can't just keep expecting people to take everything you do on faith, not when you pin their fears of the Cylons as your hold to power for so long, and then pin their fear of not surviving on trusting those same Cylons. You have to explain it to them, and neither of them ever took the time to do that. They used to do that. When things first started out, they got pep talks. I'm not at all surprised that it came to a mutiny, but I think it could have been avoided.
If I was just some random person in the fleet, I think personally I'd be more willing to go ahead and ally myself with the renegade Cylons if it meant a chance at survival. Hating the people that destroyed my people wouldn't get in the way of making sure my people still survived.
I have no idea how they're going to wrap this thing up, especially in a manner that befits the praise the actors have showered on the last few episodes. So long as they at least pretend to tie up some loose ends, and Lee and Kara shoot some more stuff, and damned Gaeta and Zarek get shoved out an airlock, I'll be perfectly satisfied no matter what else happens.
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Blayne Bradley
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Hrrm. It seems that the episode number of wikipedia is different from its listing on Torrentspy.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I still wonder in what way they are Cylons and not humans. If there are no solid state devices embedded in their brains, then how are they programmed as Cylons? I just can't stand this show any more, because it does not make sense. The Cylons are the real humans, and the Capricans are a bunch of racists. Even if they were the victims of attempted genocide. They're still racists, and probably drove the Cylons to desperate extremes.
I cannot believe you, you argue that the Cylons are the "true" humans simply because they don't actually have a hard disk platter in their brains? To quote the Great George Carlin, may he rest in peace, ahem "What!? Are you ****ing Stu***!?" Seriously, does the concept of organic computing not enter your thought processes at all? Did you not READ Xenocide or Children of the Mind whichever one Jane manages to store most of her code/database/memories within living TREES!?
Seriously, Learn to Play.
And next I suppose your going to claim that the legions of dublicate Models of Cylons is just a trick of the light. HELLO *does the check if person is really blind hand waving* Earth to Ron, oh wait, your allegedly christian, Hubbard to Ron they're obviously bioengineered machines, the question is were the Humans engineered to but don't know it yet?
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: As much as what Gaeta and Zarek are doing is wrong, Adama and Roslin were wrong too. You can't just keep expecting people to take everything you do on faith, not when you pin their fears of the Cylons as your hold to power for so long, and then pin their fear of not surviving on trusting those same Cylons. You have to explain it to them, and neither of them ever took the time to do that. They used to do that. When things first started out, they got pep talks. I'm not at all surprised that it came to a mutiny, but I think it could have been avoided.
This is where I was trying to go with the whole Nazi metaphor actually. Thanks Lyrhawn!
Oh and Blayne....uh....okay.
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Blayne, in reality, you cannot program organic brains reliably (even in science ficion). You can maybe create a Jason Bourne identity using hypnosis and other techniques that in effect create a multiple personality disorder. But again, this could never be done reliably, and certainly not on a massive scale. And if this were the method used, then the Cylons could become true humans with the appropriate psychotherapy.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Blayne, in reality, you cannot program organic brains reliably (even in science ficion).
That statement makes no sense. Why is it any less possible than FTL drives?
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Blayne, in reality, you cannot program organic brains reliably (even in science ficion). You can maybe create a Jason Bourne identity using hypnosis and other techniques that in effect create a multiple personality disorder. But again, this could never be done reliably, and certainly not on a massive scale. And if this were the method used, then the Cylons could become true humans with the appropriate psychotherapy.
seriously Ron, learn to play. If we can accept FTL travel on faith from a scifi show we can most assurdely accept programming organic brains, or are you going to claim the cylon centurians are also "human", their brains are also A) brains and B) programmed, same with cylon fighter craft.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Blayne, in reality, you cannot program organic brains reliably (even in science ficion). You can maybe create a Jason Bourne identity using hypnosis and other techniques that in effect create a multiple personality disorder. But again, this could never be done reliably, and certainly not on a massive scale. And if this were the method used, then the Cylons could become true humans with the appropriate psychotherapy.
I don't see why not. It's all just a series of electrical impulses and chemicals. Incredibly complex sure, but impossible? I doubt it.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I still wonder in what way they are Cylons and not humans. If there are no solid state devices embedded in their brains, then how are they programmed as Cylons? I just can't stand this show any more, because it does not make sense. The Cylons are the real humans, and the Capricans are a bunch of racists. Even if they were the victims of attempted genocide. They're still racists, and probably drove the Cylons to desperate extremes.
The Cylons are not the same as Humans. The Cylons, while a people and nation, are still alien to Humanity. Evidence: They are linked at all times (or were) to the Cylon Data Stream, able to syncronize with each member of their model line and to the greater Cylon commonality. But it wasn't like the Borg of Star Trek, the Cylons are not forced to link and most choose to remain independent in an attempt to simulate the real Humans, as part of their God's dictates.
The Cylons are also physically very different. While no solid state instrumentality exists in them they do have bio-mechanical functions that no Human can do: Link either physically with a wire through the arm, or by touch alone with the link connection liquid of the Data Stream. They also have the power of simulating their environment via Projection...an aspect of their psycology that Athena said she purposely avoids to make her more of a "person" and less of a Cylon.
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The thing about science fiction--at least good science fiction--is that it must be close enough to what is known to be science fact so that it does not make suspension of disbelief too difficult to maintain. I just do not see from the story line any way that the humanoid Cylons can really be any different from humans.
As for FTL drive, some physicists will say it is impossible to exceed the speed of light in a vacuum, but that only begs the possibility of exceptions being discovered in the future when knowledge of physics advances further. If worm holes or sequential teleportational jumps through some higher dimensions turn out to be possible, they would enable effective FTL travel, even if actual velocity does not exceed lightspeed.
What gets me about the BatGal humanoid Cylons is that there is no reasonable way they can be different from humans.
By the way, I thought the humanoid Cylons were much stronger than regular humans. Or did that kind of fade away and get lost with the general degeneration of the story line? Strange as it may seem, that would not be too incredible for belief, because animals like Chimpanzees are several times stronger than humans because of the kind of muscle tissue they have under conscious control. But a few seasons ago the human characters were afraid of the super-strength of the humanoid Cylons--with apparently good reason--but now we have to wonder why the XO and some of the other recently revealed Cylons do not and have never exhibited any super-strength. Of course, we all know it is because that was inconvenient, so the writers let it slide. But that is the kind of thing they deserve to be called on. Science fiction fans expect better.
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Ron, seriously. BSG Cylons can put their hands into that liquid and interface with computers. Humans can't. Cylons can stick wires in their arms (without any implanted jacks, because those would have shown up easily as a way to distinguish between Cylons and Humans) and interface with computers. Cylons can do that Projection thing. Humans can't.
Telperion just wrote that. Did you not read that post, or what? How can you, given those differences, say that "there is no reasonable way they can be different from humans"? What's your definition of "reasonable"?
The FTL thing is a reasonable point, though. What they have isn't in any way what we would call FTL travel. It seems to be more of a large scale teleportation.
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[QUOT By the way, I thought the humanoid Cylons were much stronger than regular humans. Or did that kind of fade away and get lost with the general degeneration of the story line? Strange as it may seem, that would not be too incredible for belief, because animals like Chimpanzees are several times stronger than humans because of the kind of muscle tissue they have under conscious control. But a few seasons ago the human characters were afraid of the super-strength of the humanoid Cylons--with apparently good reason--but now we have to wonder why the XO and some of the other recently revealed Cylons do not and have never exhibited any super-strength. Of course, we all know it is because that was inconvenient, so the writers let it slide. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Except for an offhand comment by head-six, was there that much buildup about humanoid cylons being hugely stronger than humans? After all, Adama did beat one in the miniseries, though it wasn't easy for him and the cylon was weaker than normal. Also, at the end of the first season, Starbuck fought six, and while she was somewhat overpowered it totally one sided.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some things here, but on the whole I don't think that they ever really built up humanoid cylons as that much stronger than humans.
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The FTL thing is a reasonable point, though. What they have isn't in any way what we would call FTL travel. It seems to be more of a large scale teleportation.
Which, of course, isn't possible based on our current scientific knowledge either.
I really don't get what's so hard about accepting cylons as essentially being "machines" made out of flesh and blood. I know of at least one other physiological difference that no one has mentioned yet. In the mini-series it was revealed that they are more susceptible to certain kinds of radiation. Something about it degrading silica pathways in their artificial brains. It's how Adama exposed a Leoben as the first known humanoid cylon, and it also has something to do with how Baltar's cylon tester works. So, for what it's worth, there's at least some similarity between the mechanical brains of the old cylons from the first war and the humanoid models.
As for the cylon super strength, I don't know that it was ever confirmed so much as speculated. The only possible examples I can recall are Leoben breaking free of handcuffs, and when Torry backhanded Cally right before killing her and she seemed to be knocked pretty far back. However, both of those things are arguably within the realm of regular human strength under the right circumstances. Back before Boomer was "activated" there was also a comment made about how she appeared to be the only pilot on the rotation who wasn't getting tired, and I think Helo commented on the other Sharon's stamina as well when they were stranded on Caprica. So if anything, cylons probably have greater physical endurance than humans, but I don't think that there's any conclusive evidence that they are significantly stronger.
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Blayne Bradley
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Its not that it faded its that the plot hasn't required them to show again that they HAVE super strength.
Armed men with guns about to rape Athena (again) what good is arm wrestling them gonna do?
Athena was also able to take significantly higher doses of radiation from that nebula then the humans, AND Baltar had a means using a nuclear warhead of telling a Cylon apart from a Human (which worked, we just don't know what is said about Ellen)
It may not be possible from a typical blood test, or a physical examination (unless your screwing one and then its spine lights up all red like) to tell one apart from a Human but damnit there ARE differences, obvious ones that the show has shown us over and over again.
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quote:Originally posted by ricree101: Except for an offhand comment by head-six, was there that much buildup about humanoid cylons being hugely stronger than humans?
Remember when Tory backhanded Cally across the room? That didn't look like normal human strength to me.
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neo-dragon, if the humanoid Cylons had "silica pathways" in their "artificial" brains, then that means they had silicon-based solid state or printed circuit devices in their heads. If that were the case, then there would have been no need for Baltar to come up with some exotic means of detecting Cylons. An MRI machine would do it, probably even just a simple X-Ray machine.
How could they be more resistant to radiation--unless their flesh is not comprised of cells built on DNA and other organic molecules?
Once you start noticing the holes, the whole weave comes unraveled. BatGal is not science fiction at all, it is just fantasy, and not very well conceived and plotted, at that. Even fantasy is internally consistent!
One thing might have salvaged my regard for the show, at least a little--and that would have been in the episode where they were on earth, walking around in the devastated wasteland, they might have had a cameo appearance by Charleton Heston. I would have loved that, even without showing a toppled Statue of Liberty.
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Blayne Bradley
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Ron, you do know they found SILICON based shrimp right?
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: neo-dragon, if the humanoid Cylons had "silica pathways" in their "artificial" brains, then that means they had silicon-based solid state or printed circuit devices in their heads. If that were the case, then there would have been no need for Baltar to come up with some exotic means of detecting Cylons. An MRI machine would do it, probably even just a simple X-Ray machine.
Well, I don't know enough about neurology to say for certain whether or not it's theoretically possible for an organic brain to incorporate silica pathways without them being visible on simple scans, but apparently you do, so... *shrug*
quote: How could they be more resistant to radiation--unless their flesh is not comprised of cells built on DNA and other organic molecules?
Actually, they're less resistant to certain types, at least. However, it was speculated that Sharon might be able to endure more of the intense radiation that the pilots were exposed to in the episode where they had to make the jumps through that highly radioactive area, but that might have been an assumption based on cylon's apparently superior stamina rather than a specific resistance to radiation. Again, not my area of expertise, but I wouldn't assume that all organic matter reacts to radiation in the same way. It was an aspect of their neurology (I'm not even 100% certain that the term used was "silica pathways") that was affected.
quote: Once you start noticing the holes, the whole weave comes unraveled. BatGal is not science fiction at all, it is just fantasy, and not very well conceived and plotted, at that. Even fantasy is internally consistent!
[/QB]
Frankly, you're over thinking it, and I don't know how you enjoy any sci-fi or fantasy if things that minor ruin it for you. You complain about internal consistency but the only contradictions you mention are based on real-world science. All sci-fi takes for granted things that are not possible based on our current understanding of science, otherwise we would actually have warp drives, time machines, lightsabers, and thinking computers.
In fact, why are you even posting in this thread if you think that BSG is such a bad show?
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OK neo-dragon, I will admit I might swallow some of this self-contradictory and irrational stuff, at least with only mild nausea, if it were not for the outrageous story line itself. It seems to be the space opera equivalent of Lost.Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Blayne Bradley
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Unless of course the stuff is actually not irrational and self contradictory.
Personally i would have preffered less ancient cosmonughts and something more along the lines of live action gundam, you know, they actually find Earth with us still alive and kicking, but in the future obviously as Battlestar Galactica where they went on 1980's earth was terrible.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: It may not be possible from a typical blood test, or a physical examination (unless your screwing one and then its spine lights up all red like) to tell one apart from a Human but damnit there ARE differences, obvious ones that the show has shown us over and over again.
Don't bother, Blayne. I suspect that Ron simply wants the Cylons to be the true humans because they're monotheists.
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Ok dudes... check this out. I don't know how real this is, but my cousin who works in the entertainment industry in NYC sent this to me... allegedly the script to "Caprica"!
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I've known mormons who've gotten into BSG because it has some mormon undertones written into it. Pro-Cylonism being based on their monotheism is hardly unexpected.
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Taking the conversation in a different route for a moment, I don't think that the Final Five cylons are related in any way to the colonial cylons. The discovery of Earth makes it seem that the bio-mechanical technology that makes up the cylons is every bit as old as the colonies and was probably originally created on Kobol? It would make sense then that the cylon technology would be lost to the 12 colonies when the 13th tribe left for Earth, thereby taking the technology with them. You could even surmise that this is probably want the war on Kobol was fought over. The Gods of Kobol were cylon because they had the ability to resurrect and the regular humans didn't. The humans wanted the technology for them too and fought a war to get it. The survivors parted ways leaving a desimated Kobol behind. 12 tribes of humans left to form the 12 colonies and 1 tribe of cylons left to settle earth.
It would make sense then that after a couple of thousand years that the technology would once again be discovered in the colonies, thus creating the colonial cylons. However, I still don't see exactly where the final five will tie in with the colonials. From the looks of earth, the cylons were reproducing just fine without resurrection. Maybe that had become forgotten tech for them too until Ellen Tigh recreated it in time to save Saul and their friends from destruction.
See what I am getting at is that it is looking like both sets of cylons evolved from the same processes, but indepenent of each other on totally separate worlds. Hmmmm......
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Maybe. There is certainly little doubt now that the final five predate the colonial Cylons. However, we know that there had to be at least some interaction between the colonial cylons and the five before the series started.
My guess is that the remnants of the Earth cylons helped the colonial cylons move towards the humanoid models. From Razor, we can see that they were already working towards humanoid models even as the first war ended, but we are told that these were a dead end. My guess is that after the war they somehow came to the attention of the Earth cylons, and with help recreated the Earth technology for their own use.
The question, then, is why they were separated afterwards, to the point where the mere mention of the 5 is taboo and the image of them is erased from everyone's mind. And also, how does this fit in with the life of Col Tigh, whose insertion into the colonies either predates or is contemporary with the war?
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quote:And let's not forget, there are still billions of main-force Cylons out there, waiting for a chance at revenge!
That's gotta be a typo or a careless number that just got tossed out, right? I was under the impression that Cavil's (or whoever is in control now that he is perma-dead) fleet was all that remained of the cylons besides the single rebel basestar. It didn't seem as though there were more than a dozen (or two at most) ships left. I'd probably put the cylons closer to a couple hundred thousand, and I can't see it going much over a million.
Of course, things change if we assume that there was a large portion of the population left behind on some other world (one or more of the colonies, kobol, new caprica, the cylon homeworld, etc). That seems more plausible to me, but it would seem to contradict a lot of what we've seen the past couple seasons.
Edit:
Also, I still maintain that everything we've seen of Caprica suggests that it could still support a small population as long as they restricted themselves to out of the way locations for a few generations until the radiation died down to acceptable levels. There'd still be a higher than ideal level of cancer and other problems, but it shouldn't be enough to prevent the population from expanding.
The only real barrier was the Cylon occupation preventing anything more than scattered and hidden pockets of people, but we were told that they pulled out. Realistically, there's probably a pocket of people trying to build themselves a future on post apocalyptic Caprica. That could actually make for a decent miniseries, in my opinion.
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I'm sure that this won't play into the series in the remaining Eps, but why the heck is no one suggesting Kobol? Except for the heebee geebees thing going on, the place was a practical untouched paradise completely healed from any nuclear wars from when cylon and humans went their way the first time. With the upgraded cylon ftl couldn't get back there in a few months or a year or so? I mean come on. Kobol. Duh! Kobol already is what Earth should have been in the first place.
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Too close to the other Cylon faction? That's the only thing I can think of. We don't know how far from Earth they are, but given the number of jumps it took to reach the resurrection hub, I suspect that they might be a long way away. Since they don't know exactly where Earth is, there's no telling how long it will take to find them (well, 7 episodes at most, but you get my point).
Kobol, on the other hand, could well have some sort of listening post, even if there isn't a direct Cylon presence. All in all, it isn't safe as long as they are on the run from the Cylons.
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