quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: My question is twofold, after having thought about it a bit:
1. The nuclear holocaust was 2,000 years ago, why are the Final Five all less than 70 years old? I'll ignore the fact that they either were or weren't born to actual parents and perhaps programmed with fake memories. My only question is was their rebirth delayed 1,900 years? Or have they continually been reborn with no memories of all their past lives since Earth?
Well, we know that there is some third group out there who at the very least made sure that Kara was reborn and given a new viper. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were also behind the rebirth and insertion of the final five into human society.
What puzzles me is whether or not this group is behind the head six/baltar. It's been clear for some time that they are likely external to the people experiencing them, at least they certainly seem to have knowledge beyond that of their hosts. Of all the threads still left dangling, this is one of the ones I want to see wrapped up the most.
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Completely random and wild speculation below... What if it WASN'T just the final five that resurrected?
What if the resurrection hub on old earth was made so that if anyone in range of it died, it could scan their body, make a copy, and resurrect them automatically? What if Ellen saying "Everything is in place, we'll be together again" was something every person knew and expected?
Second question... What if becoming 'cylon' was a result of being resurrected through this process. When Kara's ship crashed on the planet, she was scanned and duplicated by the same machine (I'm still trying to work out how she got a new viper, as well as to and back from earth in the process). By this account, she IS a cylon now, simply not one of the Final Five. The newer cylons (as well as controlling the toasters) could be a group of unknown old earth cylons.
'Normal' humans would be the refugees from Earth who weren't killed in the war. The remains of the cylon bones on Earth were people who had been resurrected and were fighting whoever was responsible for the nuclear attack in the first place. The 'Final Five' were simply the ones who wound up living with the humans for whatever reason.
It could explain some of the hostility between cylons and humans... Humans were responsible for nuking the cylon nation on old earth, cylons return the favor by nuking humanity's 12 worlds.
I'm still trying to work out how this works in with the 3600 year old Kobol vs. 2000 year old ruins though... As well as the jumping to and from earth, which would be necessary for the final five + Kara. Anyone remember the mechanics behind Total Annihilation? Something as large as a Battlestar would be insanely expensive to jump, a raider is smaller so it takes less energy and can jump farther, jumping just a person you could go much much farther. Particularly if you did so from something like a planet which can house a very large generator.
And one other thing that has bothered me... the range on DRADIS seems to be fairly local. Assuming this is THE Earth, has anyone in the fleet bothered taking a look at, say Mars?
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Blayne Bradley
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I'm hoping theres an old earth defence station in orbit with some 9th generation family of technitians that hails the fleet when its orbit intercepts.
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SPOILER, though I think that goes without saying...
I am remembering when Dee was looking at the jacks in the dirt on Earth. At first, I assumed that these jacks just represented a child's play toy, symbolic of a civilization that is now long destroyed.
However, upon rethinking it, is it possible that she had her own vision of a past life, just like the Final Five had? Did Dee remember something, realize she is a Cylon and kill herself because she couldn't deal with that? Her suicide was dramatic and unexpected after having that Date with Apollo, and I view this knowledge as being more traumatic to her than the destruction of earth.
Perhaps there are more fleet members who have some connection to this ancient society that was destroyed.
Is there some other fact I am forgetting that rules out this theory?
Edit: This theory also leaves open the option that Dee could return somehow after being resurrected, assuming there is something nearby to resurrect people, perhaps similar to what happened to Kara. Also, Dee was looking at a photo of herself as a child just before she shot herself. This would support this theory, since the jacks indicate that if she did have a memory of a past life, it would have been as a child. The photo only reminded her of this past life.
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I think Dee just lost it. You could tell from the way she was trying to hold herself together on the Raptor ride back to Galactica. She kept pinning her emotions on different things that let her down, and Earth was the biggie, and when it ended up being a big ball of blah, that was the last thing holding up her will to live.
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I think I figured it out. Time is repeating...this way:
13 Tribes leave Kobol. 12 of them settle the Twelve Colonies and the 13th is "Cylon" and settles Earth.
Present day: Same thing. The 12 Tribes leave the Colonies for another home... just as their "children" the Cylons do. The Cylons we know today, birthed of the 12 Colonies, are the current 13th Tribe.
The ancient 13th Tribe of Kobolian "Cylons" killed themselves off... just as the present 13th Tribe is doing right now.
So...some survivors from Earth reached the 12 Colonies... the FF became part of Human society and the SS became part of Cylon society.
Why or how is still anyone's guess.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Architraz Warden: Completely random and wild speculation below... What if it WASN'T just the final five that resurrected?
What if the resurrection hub on old earth was made so that if anyone in range of it died, it could scan their body, make a copy, and resurrect them automatically? What if Ellen saying "Everything is in place, we'll be together again" was something every person knew and expected?
Second question... What if becoming 'cylon' was a result of being resurrected through this process. When Kara's ship crashed on the planet, she was scanned and duplicated by the same machine (I'm still trying to work out how she got a new viper, as well as to and back from earth in the process). By this account, she IS a cylon now, simply not one of the Final Five. The newer cylons (as well as controlling the toasters) could be a group of unknown old earth cylons.
'Normal' humans would be the refugees from Earth who weren't killed in the war. The remains of the cylon bones on Earth were people who had been resurrected and were fighting whoever was responsible for the nuclear attack in the first place. The 'Final Five' were simply the ones who wound up living with the humans for whatever reason.
It could explain some of the hostility between cylons and humans... Humans were responsible for nuking the cylon nation on old earth, cylons return the favor by nuking humanity's 12 worlds.
I'm still trying to work out how this works in with the 3600 year old Kobol vs. 2000 year old ruins though... As well as the jumping to and from earth, which would be necessary for the final five + Kara. Anyone remember the mechanics behind Total Annihilation? Something as large as a Battlestar would be insanely expensive to jump, a raider is smaller so it takes less energy and can jump farther, jumping just a person you could go much much farther. Particularly if you did so from something like a planet which can house a very large generator.
And one other thing that has bothered me... the range on DRADIS seems to be fairly local. Assuming this is THE Earth, has anyone in the fleet bothered taking a look at, say Mars?
posted
I concur. That seems like a really simple but fitting explanation, Architraz. $20 (CDN) says that what the writers came up with is far more convoluted and hackneyed.
Either way, it's gonna be good right up to the end!
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I really didn't care much for this episode. Last week gave me a lot of confidence in where they were going, but I felt like they introduced a lot of unnecessary complications that don't really serve any purpose other than inflating the amount of drama.
For one thing, what was up with the Cylon technology being vastly superior to that of the colonial fleet. Unless there is some other outside influence that has yet to be explained, the Cylon technology is just a branch that split off of colonial technology some 40 or 50 years ago. Sure, they might have advanced further in some areas, they certainly had motive to do so, but the idea that they are so impossibly far ahead that no one can understand it seems a little odd. All in all, it felt like it was only there to provide a source of conflict for the episode.
Likewise, the revelation about Cally's son seemed a little tacked on. Maybe they have somewhere interesting that they're going to take this, but until they do it seems as though it was only added for the sake of adding drama to a show that already has plenty going for it.
There were some things I liked. I thought that the buildup to an uprising was fairly well done. There is logically a lot of anger and a sense of betrayal amongst the fleet, and they did a good job showing how it was stirring into a real problem.
I also thought that the Roslin plot was fairly well done. There are few that have had as much riding on their shoulders for so long in this show, and if anyone deserves a break she certainly does, but the troubles aren't over with yet and she is still needed. In my opinion, this creates an interesting story.
That said, I would really love to see someone answer the charges that they lead the fleet to nowhere with an answer along the lines of "did you have somewhere else that you were particularly interested in going to?". Yeah, Earth turned out to be a bust, but the leadership did deliver on their promise of finding it. And besides, with the Cylons chasing after them the whole way they didn't exactly have many other places to go.
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quote:For one thing, what was up with the Cylon technology being vastly superior to that of the colonial fleet. Unless there is some other outside influence that has yet to be explained, the Cylon technology is just a branch that split off of colonial technology some 40 or 50 years ago. Sure, they might have advanced further in some areas, they certainly had motive to do so, but the idea that they are so impossibly far ahead that no one can understand it seems a little odd. All in all, it felt like it was only there to provide a source of conflict for the episode.
Negative. Cylon technology is light years ahead of the Colonials. In the pilot they talk about this several times, that when the thinking machines rebelled against Humanity we, out of nessesity, had to abandon nearly all our high tech... as the Cylons can hack into and "take over even the most basic computer system".
For the Colonies to survive they had to "look backwards for protection". It was only in the past couple decades that the ban on advanced computers had been slowly erroded, leading to the genocide because the Colonies were again advanced enough to be suseptible to the Cylons hacking of the defense network and warships. That's the whole point of the steam-punk (retro) feel of the Galactica and the show in general. So while the 12 Colonies advanced again and built more and more advanced Battlestars and other cool toys for our protection, they were actually sowing the seeds of their demise.
Can the Fleet build a cyborg like the Hybrid, or humanoid body that can physically link up with a Baseship or the Cylon Data Stream? I think not. Let's not even talk about resurrection.
The Baseships don't even need thrusters to navigate around... who knows what wonders they have on board.
One Cylon Raider was able to get all the way back to Caprica with one jump, when it took the Fleet over 300 jumps to get as far as they did from the Colonies. Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Good episode. I expect the revolution to be wrapped up by next week or the week after and from there we'll get on to answering the lingering questions and finding a new home.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think Dee just lost it. You could tell from the way she was trying to hold herself together on the Raptor ride back to Galactica. She kept pinning her emotions on different things that let her down, and Earth was the biggie, and when it ended up being a big ball of blah, that was the last thing holding up her will to live.
Makes sense considering that the Sagitaron believed in the literal interperetation of the scriptures. It may have been more personal to Dee than most of Galactica
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I wonder if it was also about having children. Dee found the jacks, and she said she looked forward to watching Hera. Maybe she was hoping to find a safe place to raise a family, and she gave up on that when Earth turned out to be a nuclear wasteland.
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: ...unless everyone dies or something.
I haven't read spoilers, but I cannot believe, at this point, that anyone will be left alive by the end of the series.
I'm convinced that the human race will be reduced down all the way to zero.
They'll never end the series on that much of a downer. I know that BSG can be brutal at times, but this is still just television, after all. The "good guys" will survive in some form or fashion.
quote:Likewise, the revelation about Cally's son seemed a little tacked on. Maybe they have somewhere interesting that they're going to take this, but until they do it seems as though it was only added for the sake of adding drama to a show that already has plenty going for it.
Actually, I kinda saw this coming. Basically, from what I've read from interviews with Moore, it doesn't sound like they decided who the final five were until some time into season 3. Thus, they didn't think of Tyrol being a cylon until after he and Cally were hitched and with a kid. However, previously a big deal had been made about Hera being the ONLY human/cylon halfbreed, and how that made her significant to the future of both races. Having the Tyrol baby be another one kind of cheapened that idea, thus they fixed it.
And speaking of the future of the cylon race. It was a bit odd what 6 said about her and Tigh's baby proving that the cylon race could continue even without resurrection. I mean, can't they just make more cylons in whatever way all the current ones were made? How much do the cylons know (or not know) about their own origins? Besides, evidence would seem to suggest that only a "final five" cylon can reproduce with another cylon, and there aren't exactly enough of them to propagate a species. In fact, since their whole race is only comprised of 7 males and 5 females I don't see how there could be enough genetic variation for sexual reproduction to be a viable option. The humans aren't much better off with only 40 000 people. Let's face it, the future of both races is interbreeding. 1000 years in the future of the BSG universe everyone will probably have some human and cylon blood in them.
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quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: I wonder if it was also about having children. Dee found the jacks, and she said she looked forward to watching Hera. Maybe she was hoping to find a safe place to raise a family, and she gave up on that when Earth turned out to be a nuclear wasteland.
Perhaps.
I think that was misdirection though, but it could have been because of a mix of reasons.
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Dee killed herself because of the stripping away of all the reasons to live, for her.
Family and nation destroyed, loss of Lee, and then the loss of the only dream of hope that kept people looking towards to future. The failure of elder Adama to make good on the promise of Earth, and seeing blasted Earth up close, was the final straw that lead her to utter despair.
She was looking for the time to end her life from that moment on Earth. Ending on a bit of a high note after a date will Lee, which would have lead to nothing in the end, was the perfect time in her mind.
I agree that having Hotdog be the father was to tie up the loose end that was the possibility of a third hybrid baby running around. That would have interfered with the story arc.
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I'm so glad that Laura and Adama have finally shacked up... but what mixed emotions!
Such beauty to see the relationship come to fruition, but so terribly sad to see Laura's own despair. And Adama loves her so much he's willing to travel down that path of despair with her/for her.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
And there are people who deserve to live, who are you to decide who does and does not deserve to live and die? And why do you think they don't deserve to survive? Because they worshiped the Greek gods?
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quote:Likewise, the revelation about Cally's son seemed a little tacked on. Maybe they have somewhere interesting that they're going to take this, but until they do it seems as though it was only added for the sake of adding drama to a show that already has plenty going for it.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
And there are people who deserve to live, who are you to decide who does and does not deserve to live and die? And why do you think they don't deserve to survive? Because they worshiped the Greek gods?
For a second there, I really thought you were going to launch into the full Tolkien quote.
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They don't deserve to survive because they've been ridiculously stupid.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by ricree101:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
And there are people who deserve to live, who are you to decide who does and does not deserve to live and die? And why do you think they don't deserve to survive? Because they worshiped the Greek gods?
For a second there, I really thought you were going to launch into the full Tolkien quote.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I'm rooting for the Cylons now. The humans don't deserve to survive.
And there are people who deserve to live, who are you to decide who does and does not deserve to live and die? And why do you think they don't deserve to survive? Because they worshiped the Greek gods?
For a second there, I really thought you were going to launch into the full Tolkien quote.
I couldn't remember the whole quote
quote:Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all end.
I'll admit that I had to look it up too.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: They don't deserve to survive because they've been ridiculously stupid.
Really? 'Cause from the perspective of a common person in the fleet who doesn't get to hang out with Adama and the top brass and know all that's going on, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to be strongly opposed to having cylons tinkering with the fleet's jump drives. I don't really blame most colonials for being wary of the "people" who slaughtered their civilization just a few years ago. And apparently Adama and Roslin really let everyone down with the whole Earth thing.
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Blayne Bradley
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they're not dead yet and there's still hope for this fictional offshot of the human race to survive, I'ld think that would be the thing to appeal to you, the whole suffer now down a dark tunnel to reach the light on the over end with nothing but faith and hope.
Or did the suicide bombers in season 2 or 3 make you decide to shun humanity?
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: They don't deserve to survive because they've been ridiculously stupid.
posted
My poor teenager. She hasn't seen any of season 4 yet and is waiting until after her school musical in March to try and catch up. So she's in the other room listening to me gasp and worse - and threatening me with duct tape LOL.
The twist with Nicky does not surprise me. The Six being definitely pregnant does.... assuming Tigh truly is a Cylon, and I still have doubts on this point.
The seven Cylon models we've seen since the beginning didn't know who the final five were. Only D'Anna - and not all the Threes, just the one individual - saw their faces. Outside of D'Anna, we have only the "knowledge" of the four. Who's to say that some sort of false memories weren't implanted while they were on New Caprica (as that's the most likely time for the Cylons to have gotten a hold of them). That would make Six's baby a hybrid rather than a full Cylon - and hopefully Doc Cottle's full bio-workup that was ordered will discover this.
As for Tigh's flashback in last week's episode with Ellen, why not Shirley Maclaine style reincarnation rather than Cylon resurrection?
And I was really hoping to see Zarek put up some sort of fight after Adama authorized the use of deadly force. I wanted to see Athena actually have to carry out those orders. That was just too easy.
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I was overjoyed to see the return of "The Starbuck and Apollo Show." I was also thrilled to see so many minor characters show up again (Pvt. Jaffey, Specialist Gage, Captain Kelly, Seelix, Laird... the list goes on!). And I can't really fault the mutineers for their rationales.
All in all, a pretty frakking good episode.
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One of the best episodes ever. So intense, a bunch of awesome moments. Kara and Lee kicking ass, Tigh and Adama kicking ass, Roslin back in action, sweet jesus. Gaeta and Zarek both need to go out the airlock next week, along with any other high ranking officers who are involved with the insurrection.
I think it would actually be a cool way to setup the rest of the season if Tigh did, in fact, die, and we see him resurrect somewhere with Ellen, and they make their way back to the fleet.
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quote:Originally posted by BryanP: I think it would actually be a cool way to setup the rest of the season if Tigh did, in fact, die, and we see him resurrect somewhere with Ellen, and they make their way back to the fleet.
posted
One of the best episodes so far. Very nice. I too would like to see Tigh get shredded by that grenade (it's obvious that Adama doesn't) and show up a few episodes later - or better yet, in a "3rd party" resurrection tank... probably waking up to Ellen's face.
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: Likewise, the revelation about Cally's son seemed a little tacked on.
I took that as a plot fix...they probably have interesting things for the Chief to do, like escaping with Roslin, so they foisted the kid on to someone else so we wouldn't be saying "Hey, where's the baby" all the time.
I don't think they did a very good job of that, that the Chief would just give up the child he's been raising, the child who just lost his mother too, to someone the kid doesn't know, and who knows nothing about parenting?
It makes the Chief kind of a cold guy.
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I think Tyrol is kind of a cold guy after finding out he's a Cylon. It seems to have detached him in a way.
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Well, I think of all the characters, Tyrol has had the most crap come his way since finding out he was a Cylon.
You go from being married with a kid to being a single father skinjob. I think that'd detach a lot of people.
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I still wonder in what way they are Cylons and not humans. If there are no solid state devices embedded in their brains, then how are they programmed as Cylons? I just can't stand this show any more, because it does not make sense. The Cylons are the real humans, and the Capricans are a bunch of racists. Even if they were the victims of attempted genocide. They're still racists, and probably drove the Cylons to desperate extremes.
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But keep in mind this is still only four years after the nearly complete human genocide. Which was then followed by nearly endless attempts by the Cylons to kill these few scared survivors.
In real life, the genocide of the Jews was enough to, well, create Israel, among many other things.
I don't think it's fair to expect these people, most of them, to accept the Cylons. I don't think it's fair to expect them to forget New Caprica after two years, or the endless battles, or the Colonies, after only four years.
I know that if a group of people did to my people what the Cylons did to the humans... I'd have a hard time forgiving. My distrust of them would take a long tmie in healing, and even if I did eventually accept some of them, I'd feel, deep down, some level of hatred my entire life.
Add to that a leadership that then accepts help from them... it'd be like a straggling band of Jews being asked by their leaders to accept Nazi help.
The insurrection is reasonable.
However, in this situation, it's tragic. It's bringing out the very worst qualities of humans, but in a situation like this, you cannot expect humans to remain calm and cheerful. After years of keeping silent, there comes a time when people cannot stay silent any longer, and the combined hatred within them will finally lash out.
The tragedy is, that lashing out, in this case, will very well mean the final end of the human race...
---
I think I'm on Gaeta's side. Well, that's not really true, because I know the characters and care for them, and see enough and am detached enough to know who the heroes are.
But if I was there? I'd be putting my gun in Gaeta's camp, if I know anything about me. I just know it.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: I still wonder in what way they are Cylons and not humans.
I haven't seen any humans shove a cable into their arm and reprogram a computer with it. Or get resurrected, although Kara's a bit of a mystery there. (and did she just admit that she "died once"? wth?) Maybe all humans could do both those things and they just don't know how to use their body to do it, just as the not-yet-activated cylons didn't know they could do these things. But from what we've seen so far I'd say it's more probable that cylons and humans are indeed different.
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About this episode: as much as I liked Adama's and Tigh's "last stand", I can't see the reasoning behind it. Once you're out there in the ship what are a few people in the hangar going to do? Sound the alarm? Gaeta already knows there's something wrong and he's sending ships to intercept. Eh, what don't we forgive for a good dramatic moment? Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wonder Dog: I too would like to see Tigh get shredded by that grenade (it's obvious that Adama doesn't) and show up a few episodes later - or better yet, in a "3rd party" resurrection tank...
Unless they *both* get killed and *both* show up a few episodes later...
Why is it "obvious" that he won't? Forgive me, as I'm new to the series.
And, for the record, it looked like a flashbang rather than a frag grenade.
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It's obvious Adama isn't killed because the preview for next week showed him bound and blindfolded in a launch tube.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Even if they were the victims of attempted genocide. They're still racists, and probably drove the Cylons to desperate extremes.
By having no contact with them for like 30 years? I'm not really sure how that drove them to kill 50 billion people, and I can certainly understand why many of the 40 000 survivors would harbor quite an intense hatred after that.
And as for the cylons being human, just because they're flesh and blood doesn't make them the same. I don't see why the programming is a hard idea to swallow considering that this is science fiction, after all. Clearly the humanoid cylons are products of highly advanced bio-engineering.
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: By having no contact with them for like 30 years? I'm not really sure how that drove them to kill 50 billion people, and I can certainly understand why many of the 40 000 survivors would harbor quite an intense hatred after that.
And even more than that, there's the method the Cylons used to wipe out the colonies in the first place. I mean, they infiltrated and tampered with all of the defensive equipment so that it would disable on command. And now the people of the fleet are being told to let the Cylons at their FTL drives, which are the one thing that allowed them to keep ahead of the Cylons and stay alive.
As a viewer, we have the benefit of knowing that there was, in fact, a Cylon civil war that sent the rebels to the fleet. To everyone else, with information that is even more limited than that available to those aboard Galactica, this whole thing screams trap.
What I don't get is what Tom Zarek's endgame is supposed to be here. If he succeeded, he would be left with a basestar full of angry alienated Cylons, and the only serious human military ship would be at a tiny fraction of its full combat readiness until the mutineers consolidated their hold and replaced those who died or refused to cooperate. The timing of the plan makes sense, but I'm just having trouble seeing what useful place it would lead to for Zarek.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Ugh! I am glad to see this series coming to an end. The intensity of the up and down every week is alot to handle, especially in these hard times. You can definately see the spiral effect happening. It will be interesting to see how all this finally plays out.
What I don't get is that everyone accepted the alliance when they were heading to earth. If earth had been a pristine beautiful place, do you think that they would have just held hands and happily integrated/adjusted to their new home? Hmmm..
Overall, both Adama and Roslin are pragmatists. They believe in the survival of the human race. Now that the dream of Earth is gone, they see the necessity of crossing the enemy lines, forgiving those that deserve it, and moving forward. Notice how after WW2 we didn't nuke Germany into cinders. The cylons may not be completely human, but they are close enough with some interesting upgrades to make the survival of humanity possible on any planet. Regardless of the circumstances, most of the fleet wants peace. Those that sowed the insurrection need to put up against the wall and shot. Not because they rebelled, but because they have already chose not to survive.
As for the Jews accepting Nazi help, they did, alot. Not every Nazi wanted to kill the Jews. On top of that, we have benefitted greatly from the advances in technology that German scientists created under the Nazi regime. Anyone heard of the space program. That is exactly why Gaeta and Zarek deserve to die, because they are so short sighted that they would rather destroy the human race than see past the sins of the past to forge a better future.
Besides if Zarek and Gaeta get what they want, where are they going to go? Neither of them have the battle experience to protect the fleet when Cavil's forces show up. Their way of thinking will doom the fleet to annihilation.
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